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Is this place alive simply because I'm vain?

 
  

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semioticrobotic
10:51 / 05.10.06
Without Barbelith, I don't know where I'd go. I haven't found people online talking about the same interesting things the 'lithers do. Besides, every other place has sigs and avatars, both of which make me want to put a fist through the screen.

I do think it needs to change, though, and I, like Dix-Neuf, would be happy to pay Cal to code those changes.

This is an interesting thought. And I agree. Expanding the power of the community by re-coding sections of the board would be great.
 
 
electric monk
15:33 / 05.10.06
Barbelith provides me the opportunity to interact with and befriend some great people, to take part in or listen in on an amazing array of intelligent discussions, to cry out in anguish or jump for joy when I need to, to halve someone's burden or double their happiness, to learn and maybe even to teach. I'm grateful for all of that, and can honestly say I've grown as a person because of it.

You've created something very special here, Tom, and I thank you for it.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:58 / 05.10.06
Ganesh: It doesn't need to shut down, no. I do think it needs to change, though, and I, like Dix-Neuf, would be happy to pay Cal to code those changes.

This is one of the things that's puzzled me for a while now. The board's been feeling a bit stagnant for me for a few months - not enough forwards motion, if any. And I'm constantly frustrated by the way that making any kind of suggestion as to how the place could change for the better is met with the brick wall of "not possible". It just makes me feel as though any energy spent thinking about and discussing possible changes to the structure of the place is wasted, pointless.

A good long while ago, there were other members of the board who were offering their coding services for free - fridgemagnet and Paleface are the two I remember off the top of my head, and there may have been more - but their offers were, apparently, ignored. I didn't understand this at the time and I understand it even less now.

This incarnation of the board has been around for two and a half years - I've a feeling that this may be the longest that we've gone without any major changes (could be wrong - it's entirely possible that white and gold Barbelith was around for a few months longer) - and the technical issues that were highlighted as problematic back then remain issues now.

I still get something from Barbelith, but it feels like it's treading water.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:07 / 05.10.06
I understand where you are coming form, Randy, but in the end we have to remember that this is Tom's board, not ours. We are, after all, free to go away and start boards by ourselves if we want to. I think that some of us would like Barbelith to be a self regulating community...but it clearly isn't.
 
 
Feverfew
17:00 / 05.10.06
In answer to your first question, Tom; No.

I am nothing but glad for Barbelith's existence as a message board. It has become somewhere I come to daily, where I've found so much of interest to talk about and follow, and learn from.

It has it's problems, yes, but they are most always discussed thoroughly and sensibly, in my humblest opinion.

Answering the other questions; Yes, No, No, No, No. I don't think it could be 'put out of it's misery' because ninety-nine percent of the time, it's not miserable.
 
 
Spaniel
17:44 / 05.10.06
but their offers were, apparently, ignored. I didn't understand this at the time and I understand it even less now.

That always baffled and annoyed me too. I think it might have something to do with the board's coding being Tom and Cal's property, and the possibility that were someone else to fiddle with that code that person would have some claim to the board.

I may be wrong.

Tom, care to explain?
 
 
petunia
18:13 / 05.10.06
Oh Tom, you're such a sillyhead.
 
 
Char Aina
18:14 / 05.10.06
isnt it more of an issue of intellectual property?
i read that somewhere once.
 
 
Char Aina
18:15 / 05.10.06
like, as in they might steal it and sell it to bill gates.
 
 
Spaniel
18:29 / 05.10.06
I think that's kinda what I was getting at.
 
 
Tom Coates
19:23 / 05.10.06
No - it's not an anxiety about board users who have volunteered to help stealing the code. I couldn't sell the code, because (although I'm not clear on this), I'm pretty sure that I don't actually own it. I probably have a stake in it, given the changes I've made and the input I had into its creation, but basically it probably belongs to Cal.

That doesn't mean someone else couldn't work on it. Neither I nor Cal would have much issue with that. The problem really is higher level than that - I don't know much about either of the posters concerned or their abilities in this area, and while I could probably give them a copy of the code to experiment with I'm not sure that I'd have enough time to build up a relationship of trust in their technical abilities to put changes they made live onto the main site, or attach them to the main database. The last thing any of us want is for a change to result in the accidental deletion of all of the conversations, and while I can back them up (and occasionally do, obviously), there are other dangers around giving people access to data and stuff that mean that for the most part I'm just fundamentally uncomfortable with people I don't know enormously well IRL working on the site.

This may sound ridiculous, but given that I haven't been in the country for three weeks because I've been on a business trip, and that now I have basically zero free time where I'm not working until (maybe) Tuesday evening next week, you can see how changes just don't get organised or written down.

Several times in the past I've promised things that I've not been able to deliver, and I'm keen not to do that this time, but if it is any reassurance, I definitely want to improve this place and I have talked to Cal about it over the last couple of weeks and he is interested in doing so.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:29 / 05.10.06
Citizen Frances suggested some changes also, which I thought were interesting but which would absolutely require, in effect, a test clone of barbelith. Maybe we should have a hyperaccelerated mutant barbelith? In stripy tights.
 
 
Spaniel
19:35 / 05.10.06
Thanks for the answer, Tom. Doesn't make me any happier but thanks for the answer, anyway.

Gahhfuck

(Sounds like you work horrifically hard)
 
 
Tom Coates
20:25 / 05.10.06
I don't know that I work enormously hard, just that I never seem to do much other than work, except maybe watch the odd TV show and go out for a couple of drinks here and there. I've always got a personally motivated backlog that stretches way beyond my means to accomplish, and find myself either blocking through that stuff, feeling guilty about not blocking through that stuff, or avoiding resolutely anything involving responsibility.
 
 
Lama glama
20:44 / 05.10.06
I've been lurking/posting to Barbelith for a little over a year now and I can honestly say that it has changed the way I think about certain parts of my life. Most recently, the 101 topics have made me re-evaluate certain (not necessarily negative) preconceptions that I've held. While I don't post to the Headshop or Switchboard very often, (Film, Comics and Conversation are where I feel most comfortable posting) I've learned a great deal about a wide variety of philosophical, socio-political concepts, that I (rather foolishly) might not normally be interested in reading about. It's because the board is so well presented and the people are so funny, intelligent and that I hope you don't close the board for a looong time yet.

Not until that trifecta of yours is running, anyway.
 
 
iamus
20:54 / 05.10.06
Randy kind of beat me to the puch a bit. Stagnant is precisely the word I was going to use.

First of all, I still get a lot from Barbelith. I've not posted nearly as much as I used to in the past few months, but it's still, always, first port of call when I open my browser. I'm not always reading in depth, but I'm always reading it because there's always something interesting here, and it's the strong sense of community that I love. I've gotten in touch with quite a few really cool people through this place and the thought that Barbelith could dissappear and all these people would break apart and fly off in opposite directions is not a good one.

There's a very particular identity and personality to the place that I would really miss if it were to go. Though I've never met more than a handful of you, I love the fact that I could do one day.

I think the problem is that in the two years that I've been here, the board hasn't really developed at all. I squeezed in the back door just after the rainbow was put in place*, but since then there has been no significant development to the functionality or, I'll venture, userbase. We seem to get scads of new members with each admissions sweep, but few regular posters. When I first joined, Barbelith was a very vibrant and funny place to be. There were lots of running injokes for a start, which is something I'm not noticing nearly as much of late.

Barbelith isn't dying, but it's not growing either, and that's just about as much of a problem. I don't think it's any secret that the lack of development on the board is a big factor in many of the recent Policy problems, whether it be troll or functionality-related.

For instance.... As long as we're getting new members, we're going to keep going through the same motions of acclimatisation over and over. That much is inevitable and it shouldn't really be any other way. But there has to be better methods of dealing with that, where older members who've done the schtick a thousand and one times can feel that they're not just pissing in the wind. Everybody knows that should be the case, but while the 'lith is in stasis, like it is now, that's exactly what's happening.

Currently, resolution is just revolution. And not the "sticking it to the man" kind at that. It's no wonder there's an atmosphere of crawling the walls at times.

Now I take on board what Qalyn has said. That people should accept Barbelith is just Barbelith and doesn't have to be anything more, but I get the impression that a significant part of the board want it to be. Policy wouldn't be as active as it is if that weren't the case. People wouldn't expend so much time and energy polishing it if they didn't want it to shine.

Personally, I'd like to see it a bit more like it used to be, but older and wiser. Not so much even like when I joined but perhaps before. Barbelith sounds like it was never more fun than back in the early days of legendary trolls and multiple fiction-suits. I understand why it's had to change, but (and I really like to hear the opinions of people who were about then..... perhaps in a dedicated thread) surely there's things that can be learned from then?

At any rate, it means nothing unless work can actually be done on the site, and that takes us back to the main problem. Barbelith is a big thing, and Tom, you're a very busy man. Unfortunately, none of this is something that can be squeezed in to the only night-off you get every four years. That's not fair on anyone, least of all you. How to solve that problem is not something I'm qualified to speculate on though.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
21:04 / 05.10.06
Oh my god. If there were no Barbelith I might actually, y'know, get a life.

Just kidding.

I've been here nearly seven years and if this place should leave, there would be a big big big empty part of my life. And I feel like I would lose many dear people.

Please don't ever.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:58 / 05.10.06
Having realised that my tone was effectively leaning towards sarcasm I choose to without my post for another day. I agree with Dupre.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
23:24 / 05.10.06
Wow, I have misrepresented myself. I get so used to saying what I want people to think I'm saying, rather than what I really mean, that I confuse myself. I think it's great to improve Barbelith's functionality, whether social or computerific. I find the ponderous discussions of the Barbelith Community and its implicit bylaws and all of that a a bit hard to take. I understand it's a fine line and I'm not suggesting that anyone should behave differently.
 
 
Triplets
23:26 / 05.10.06
You can't shut this place down. Where else would Boboss get pics of my abs?
 
 
Triplets
23:30 / 05.10.06
Or talk about them for that matter. Keep Abarbelith!
 
 
Blake Head
01:47 / 06.10.06
I agree with a great deal of what iamus had to say. Similarly, it’s a group where there’s a basic assumption that intolerance and ignorance don’t substitute for personality, and that your fellow members will be both interesting and engaged. And it’s the only one I’ve found where there is such commitment, high expectations and loyalty to a space for ongoing discussion. I love the idea of an ideal or idealised community; I don’t know if that’s what Barbelith is or what it’s meant to be, but I came here with the belief that if that quality of discussion and community was to be realised then, for me, it was most likely to be here, and so far the vast majority of people I’ve spoken with and met have fulfilled that idea of friendly, principled fascinating individuals gathering to exchange ideas, and for me it’s key that Barbelith remains as a space for such individuals as opposed to conforming or being limited to the current habits and interests of the pre-existing community.

That said, I recently tried to articulate offline, with some difficulty, the feeling that there’s a sense that all the great dialogues on Barbelith exist in the past. And there’s a certain amount of humorous reflexivity towards that, but still. Some of the correspondents are still here, but they currently seem so pre-occupied in clearing the ground for conversation to take place that they no longer appear to contribute significantly themselves, and without anyone putting forward their new ideas Barbelith increasingly becomes substantially and to a degree protectively static with only a few diamonds to be found here and there. That’s not an attack either, the structure obviously does need to be maintained for discussion to build constructively, but I’d be far more interested in more senior members’ contributions to discussions in-forum than in their ability to police the missteps of others, and there obviously needs to be a distribution of work in such a way that that’s possible.

And in an important sense the above perception is clearly false: as others have said it’s still a place that people take a great deal of pleasure and knowledge from, and there are still great exchanges taking place – but sometimes those exchanges feel more marginal rather than central, and it’s at those moments that the “Barbelith has lost its way” moments raise their head. The idea of a stagnant board is one that I think would be difficult to evidence if for no other reason than its vagueness, but it’s one that contributes at least to the reasons for my feeling that new members aren’t turning into regulars. I’ve not posted as much as I thought I would, or as in-depth as I would have liked, and there’s a fair charge of personal responsibility there, but at the same time I don’t think that at many points during my months here the board has felt “sticky” (to quote Haus I think) with regards to new people, which is a shame, as there’s so much of ongoing worth.

I’d rather hope Barbelith still was a place for “new discussions with new people”. And it’s understandable if some members have over the years left or moved to more marginal positions in the community, but it’s only acceptable if there’s a framework in place that encourages an influx of people that will maintain and (you never know) improve upon the quality of discussions that have already taken place. I don’t think Barbelith is dead or dying, necessarily, but I do think that if it was that little bit busier, and if there was a little less dross, we’d be attracting and keeping a more visible and beneficial membership with an exponential effect.

There are obviously larger and more external factors which will influence the future of the board (and apologies if this has been verbose and abstract both), but in the meantime (with tongue fairly firmly in cheek) some hopefully spirit-raising thoughts on what current members (old and new) might be able to do within the limits of current technology:

Barbelith Renaissance Project
 
 
Haus of Mystery
09:02 / 06.10.06
Everyone just got old and cranky. The board's at some kind of cantankerous middle age, maybe heading for a mid-life crisis.

Soon we shall all be buying sports cars and having affairs.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:38 / 06.10.06
The last thing any of us want is for a change to result in the accidental deletion of all of the conversations, and while I can back them up (and occasionally do, obviously), there are other dangers around giving people access to data and stuff that mean that for the most part I'm just fundamentally uncomfortable with people I don't know enormously well IRL working on the site.

I understand that, though I would like to emphasise that the names offered are long term, trusted Barbelith members. I, for one, am not particularly worried that Paleface or fridgemagent would cause the harm you are worrying about. Even then, I see lots of ways around this problem, since there presumably are people on Barbelith you *do* know well irl.
 
 
Olulabelle
09:51 / 06.10.06
Yes. It does seem like a bit of an excuse rather than an actual valid reason.

There are lots of ways that we could make changes to the board. If we were a company we would have to hire total strangers and we wouldn't be thinking that they were going to wipe all the conversations.
 
 
Ganesh
10:32 / 06.10.06
I'm not sure that threads being accidentally deleted would be a wholly negative thing. I'd quite like having new conversations without the same sense of retreading stuff back in the archives. It'd be nice to feel a bit less like an archive.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:38 / 06.10.06
Agreed, but thats a different question.
 
 
HCE
17:16 / 06.10.06
(thanks AdL and MattShepherd for the clarification.)
 
 
Tom Coates
18:45 / 06.10.06
Yes. If we were a company we would have staff of some kind, or at the very least one person (me) who'd have time to develop and explore the possibly functionality. Frankly, if I was running this as a job, I'd probably have time to learn how to program!
 
 
Olulabelle
19:03 / 06.10.06
But Tom, I think we have people offering to develop and explore functionality for free, and if that doesn't work for you we seem to have quite a few people who would donate via paypal to pay for Cal to do the exact same thing.

There's really no reason not to do it one of these two ways is there? There appears to be quite a big feeling that new functionality would help the board move forward.
 
 
Spaniel
19:27 / 06.10.06
There really is.

I appreciate your concerns, Tom, I just hope you fully appreciate ours. It's a really shitty state of affairs: a large chunk of the board's vocal posters have expressed a desire to get the functionality changed, but we can do fuck all to make it happen.

It's a real Arrggghfuck situation.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
20:36 / 06.10.06
Personally, I'm finding the best attribute of Barbelith is the information-resource side of it; for some reason, God only knows why, I seem to've developed an extreme and slavish respect for the tastes of all you nutters, and am buying music, books, films and even sodding videogames to suit.

It seems to me that there's a general trend across all 'net boards which practice a similar "keep referring back to and expanding on old threads" policy towards, well, maybe not stagnation, but, well, ponderousness. Ponderosity. Thingy. It's an excellent and commendable policy - for the short and medium term. I'm not so sure about long term. If I were a tyrannical Barberuler? I'd shunt every thread started over a month ago (from now) kicking and screaming into a read-only archive and encourage the current denizens to start topics on anything and everything they like, from scratch, get new angles on things. It probably wouldn't produce any less interesting discussion, and it'd shake things up a bit. Pfft.

But yeah. B. shines bright as a media resource, regardless of all that posting and talking nonsense.
 
 
Triplets
09:41 / 07.10.06
As House suggested earlier, could some kind of limited Barbelith 2 clone site be given out for testing?
 
 
Tom Coates
17:10 / 07.10.06
Cal was one of the core developers on Flickr and is now their lead architect and developer. He's done very well for himself, and quite rightly since he's incredibly smart and very bright. People in the industry with less expertise and responsibility (and more time) than Cal are regularly paid £700-£1000 a day to do this kind of work. I don't doubt he could charge more. He could probably do a bunch of things on the board in a day but it would basically still be as a favour. He doesn't need to do this, and we do and will need him again in the future to help out one way or another. Particularly if we don't like the features that are built or need to change them. I don't think the few hundred regular posters on Barbelith are really able to financially support ongoing development from Cal. I have - and will - think about the possibilities of doing something significant for him to say thank you, but I don't think hiring him is going to be a practical option.

Going to people volunteering from outside doesn't really help much either, since it would require me meeting them, working out the functionality with them, them implementing it on a parallel version and then me incorporating it back into Barbelith, with my oversight and on my server, without losing any of the information or posts that you guys have created over the last several years.

Realistically, the bottleneck here is not developers or Cal. The main bottleneck here is me and my time, and while I'm trying to work out how and why to emigrate to the US with Yahoo, writing a pitch for a potential new life-changing project, writing several patent applications, getting our current work project on the right page and moving in the right direction, while also handling the four of five major groups of people who want some of my time at time moment other than Barbelith, then it seems quite unlikely that I'm going to be able to make much.

This is not the way I would like it to be. It genuinely is not the way I'd like it to be. I will try and make some impact on some of the problems people are talking about. But I will promise nothing because I've said I'd do this stuff before and I've failed, and at the moment I'm under too much general pressure to take on new significant responsibilities.
 
 
Seth
17:51 / 07.10.06
Dude, you sound like you need a holiday. And a hug.

I agree that paying a person to code the site seems like a large amount with those kind of figures... but then I've also witnessed how brilliantly Barbelith can mobilise when it likes an idea. Nearly a year ago (and mainly through Barbelith contributions) I raised around eight hundred pounds in the space of a month to put on a show in Southampton.

The conditions were different. The contributors were essentially stakeholders so the risk of the show was spread amongst a lot of people. Everyone saw back more than they put in in the end. But I think that if the objective is to give to this site then people will give pretty freely even if it's a donations/contributions kinda deal.

There's also the matter of timescale. Raised a huge amount of money in a week is impossible. Over a month, easier. Over six months, then we might be able to get moving.

Let's just choose modest figures. Twenty people contributing £5.00 a month for six months would total £1,200. I'd be extremely surprised if the people here would do that little, realistically over six months I'd expect we could raise around four times that amount, with each person contributing what they could afford. But then I have no idea how much time you might spend coding some of these extra features that are being mooted, so even a fairly easily obtainable four grand might be a modest asking price.

The other issue is people taking time out of their already busy lives to do other paid work. I don't know how we could meet those kind of demands from what we could offer between us. I dunno... cook, clean, do your laundry?

What do you think?
 
  

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