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Is this place alive simply because I'm vain?

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21:44 / 04.10.06

Right. This is a simple and a short post. There are times when I think the board is doing extremely well and is enormously creative and fun. There are other times when I'm convinced it has passed its best and probably should end so that all of you guys could go and start new creative communities or get invovled in new discussions with new people. Sometimes I wonder whether I'm just keeping it open because I want it to be here rather than because it's good or useful any more. Do you guys actually enjoy it? Is it just a crutch or a ritual? Would it be better if we shut it off and walked away?

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

22:00 / 04.10.06

I enjoy the hell out of this place. Then again, it was the first message board I was ever a member of, and it remains the only board that I post on. There were a few boards between then and now, but they weren't nearly as much fun.

I learn as much now as I did six years ago. I'm not sure how new members feel about the place, but I can't imagine feeling as comfortable anywhere else and still learning stuff.

22:01 / 04.10.06

I can't speak for anyone else but I love Barbelith. I've looked at other boards and they're just not the same. There is just not the same commitment or level of thinking, the same neatness and organisation. I love the layout of Barbelith, how easy threads are to follow.

I'd feel bereft if there were no Barbelith to read and I really care about it. I care about the people who post to it, the things we discuss, the ideas, the creativity, the amusing stupidity, the absolute mind-boggling braininess.

Of course it's difficult and annoying sometimes; all the best things are aren't they? But the benefits outweigh those difficulties. For me.

I'd be willing to bet a great deal of people feel like the same.

22:09 / 04.10.06

Do you guys actually enjoy it? Is it just a crutch or a ritual? Would it be better if we shut it off and walked away?

yes, yes, yes and no.

While not wishing to get bogged down in Barb-elite accusations, although there is a relatively small group of regular posters who, quite rightly given their willingness and ability to engage frequently and at length, dominate the board, there are plenty of us who still hang around the fringes and use it as an information resource and [slight cringe] a transformative space. There is nowhere else that, (when things aren't all "waahhh" and "grrr! you!") has people so well-qualified to spout and so willing to listen without flying off the handle.
There are flaws, but nothing's perfect. I even learned that someone rudely and gratuitously telling me to "shut the fuck up" could be useful in the long run.

22:10 / 04.10.06

I feel the same. If it shut down I wouldn't go elsewhere, I'd just not post anywhere and waste my time looking up spurious facts without a community to poke and say 'Hey, look at that!'. I love it here, even when it's all bitter infighting and recriminations you can just wander the convo or check out bits of the board you don't usually frequent.

I love you Tom but if you weren't here we'd still carry on doing what we're doing because it's a worthwhile community to invest time and energy in. It's not for you, we're not pretending so we don't hurt your feelings, it's ace here. How else do you explain the amount some of us post? I tussle in the policy instead of working sometimes because I think it's important to maintain the thing-that-barbelith-is, not because I love discussing the lack of a barbeclique again.

If it were a village Barbelith would be like Huxley's Island, but with more angst. I'm proud to be here.

22:11 / 04.10.06

I feel the same as 'lula, crosspost with cube there.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

22:13 / 04.10.06

I still love it to bits. Sure, there are times when it seems like all that's happening is the board discussing itself, and when you're in the middle of them it can be hard to remember that they're not all there is, but they aren't. There's still all the other wonderful stuff I come here for. I'm still learning, still meeting great people, and still getting new perspectives on things I thought I knew about but actually didn't, really.

And, apart from when the meta-discussions are all depressing and people-being-banned-y, I enjoy those a lot too.

Yeah, put me firmly in the "still lovin' it" camp.

22:14 / 04.10.06

AGH! AGH! AGH!

Please don't!

Holy crap Tom you've just given me an awful shock.

Okay. Breathing...breathing...

I've spent years on the internet in most places lurking, sometimes contributing often just dropping in for a conversation. IRL I've spent time with all kinds of communities yet always in either case I've never felt completely at home.

That's it right there Tom, that's why your post almost made my heart fall short. For the first time I can recall I'm surrounded by brilliant thoughtful people from every possible walk of life (which allows for internet access). I hear stories of great tragedy and humor, quick jokes, mystic arguements, and heart wrenching joy.

I'm mostly brand new still having not yet talked to everyone, not sat down over a round of arm chair mysticism or world political cleanup debate with all the amazing people on here.

I flew across the ocean to the UK because a member pointed out something I needed to work on, and he was right. While there I got to meet an amazing roomful of people from the board. Many have helped me with personal matters, sent me gifts, and told me they gave a shit about my everyday woes.

That's it to, right there. I've found a group of people to care about and to respect, to play with and laugh with, to worry and hand wring with.

Now you might say I could find them elsewhere and I'll ask you where exactly? I belong to other boards and other sites that have gifted me friends but none have gifted me with a community I respect and honor for their varied and beautiful thoughts. Their words free float in a great lovely piece of presentation unique to this place.

Sure there is some shit to shovel and some hands to hold, possibly some asses to kick but I swear on all that is holy, this place is a unique alchemical internet wonder. To pull the plug is to cast into darkness a small raft of brilliant sparks congregating moth like around a flame of inspiration.

Forgive my ultra smarmy soap boxing.

I wrote this last month becase of the board. Not to a specific person but rather how the whole community makes me feel.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

22:19 / 04.10.06

What cube said.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

22:21 / 04.10.06

I think we're just going through a rough patch TBH. There are a few problems with the nuts-and-bolts of the board (as outlined elsewhere) that are impacting on its smooth running at times. That doesn't mean the board is screwed, it just means that stuff needs tightening up a bit.

Speaking for myself I'm still pretty invested in the Barb, esp. the Temple.

22:36 / 04.10.06

i am in the keep it on camp.
it' worth more alive than dead, dude.
definitely.
it has done most of the work it will do on me, but even as i type that i am sure it is wrong.
i like it, and i would not be happy to see it go.
i'm sure i'd find elsewhere and others, but i think i might sufer serious culture shock if i did.

ongoing barbelith?
yes please.

it might be an idea to freeze it for a month so we can all take the time to reflect, though...

22:38 / 04.10.06

When not feeling utterly drained by events/activities discussed at length elsewhere, I still find Barbelith to be pretty much the only place online where I can both learn a lot and not feel like the only feminist, the only person who doesn't find calling people fags witty, and so forth. It's very, very nice to have a community, to have a place where I'm not a minority.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

22:50 / 04.10.06

Incidentally: I suspect your current concerns might be due to all what's going on in Policy, but if people didn't think this was a worthwhile community, they wouldn't be spending hours trying to keep it safe and make it better.

They'd just leave.

And your recent stats report shows that there isn't a mass exodus or any great horrible plunge in numbers. The work's being done, it just takes longer in an open and democratic environment. And it gets done better in the end that way too.

I think you can take the Policy explosion as a sign of a robust and healthy community trying to find ways to keep itself robust and healthy, which isn't always a fun and pleasant process.

22:53 / 04.10.06

Personally I'm loving it here. i had a brief period of internet access in 2001 when I got my membership and then got home access in Feb this year. i used to be out a lot of an evening having heated debates with local politicoes. Not at all now and was going a bit crazy when I realised that Barbelith might still be out there like a shining beacon of 'Shit I didn't know/hadn't thought of that!'

I spent some time feeling really frustrated at the conflict and then realised that if I stopped reading those threads it ceased to exist. Ping! Instead I have been trying to frame new threads that I have been incubating and becoming rather precious about, I'm afraid. All in all I look forward to having a minute in the day where I can take a time to catch up on threads I'm following and aquaint myself with new interesting ones. The only place I have found that is in any way as gratifying as this place is my job which is perfect. Now you wouldn't want to fuck up my perfect life by taking this away would you?

I have learnt some stuff about myself, my agressiveness and the fact that I can enjoy beating someone up with it - not good. I've learnt stuff from others, the dignity of suffering fools and the power of kindness - a humbling experience.

What do you get out of Barbelith Tom? Your post is framed in terms of other peoples needs. Bollocks to that mate. Has your labour of love become a labour of duty? Do you get any gratification from what you get up to behind the scenes that is not dependant on the well being of the 'liths denizens? Is it time for you to find a better party 'cos it would break my heart but I could respect that.

22:58 / 04.10.06

My theory about Barbelith;

That Gregor M, when he sat down to write 'The Invisibles' was in the business of creating a magick spell whereby everyone involved would meet interesting people. He's pretty much on record as saying so.

And, for all Barbelith's faults, it does seem to have worked out, eh, comrades?

One Love!

23:03 / 04.10.06

redtara;

If you're that unhappy with the way things are conducted on Barbelith, there's an easier solution at at hand than ... honestly, this pointless aggresion.

23:29 / 04.10.06

Sorry? What did redtara say that was pointlessly aggressive? I've read it twice and don't see it. Clarify please?

Tryphena Absent

23:32 / 04.10.06

I believe Alex is responding to paragraph 3.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

23:32 / 04.10.06

I think that was a gag based on redtara saying
I have learnt some stuff about myself, my agressiveness and the fact that I can enjoy beating someone up with it - not good, Fred. I did a double-take myself.

ONLY NICE THINGS

00:15 / 05.10.06

Annnnyway...

I think Barbelith is still doing useful things - it's providing a service, I think maybe in particular for people who don't get to hang out with t3h PC brigades in their everyday life. And, a lot of the time, it's also a very amusing place. Without it I wouldn't get nearly the same opportunities to meet and talk with people I like, and meet people I _will_ like, and will have interesting and useful conversations with.

So, yeah. Me likey.

00:27 / 05.10.06

I think I can feel where Tom is coming from here. When you think about how amazing so many of our members are, and how much of their time and energy is spent arguing about... you know what... it's kind of a disgrace. One of the things I find most frustrating about Barbelith is this idea that it should be more than it is. It's a neat place for talking to people about stuff. Isn't that enough? Do we really need to get into all this other bosh? I mean, clearly most of us feel we do, I just find it frustrating.

Tom, the people who would be better off somewhere else will go somewhere else, and if they don't it's not really your problem. Let Barbelith be Barbelith.

00:30 / 05.10.06

I'm a long time lurker* but Barbelith is the only place in the world/ on the internet where I really feel like, if only I were that little bit smarter (etc), I would really fit in.

I have learned loads and truly feel I have grown a fair bit because of many years of influence from lovely barbelites. A lot of the time Barbelith is the only *social* aspect of the internet I bother with. Barbelith is the only message board I bother with anymore and some days it's the only surfing I do. Seriously, Tom, Barbelith is my favourite thing about the internet. So for the handful of years that I've been enjoying this place I am thankful to you.

Because of my regular contact with this board my general attitude about humans is much higher than it might be. I certainly notice a shift in my view of the average bear when I stay away too long. I *liiiike* you lot. Even though I lurk and it's maybe a little creepy to say this.. I really genuinely care about a great deal of the regular posters here.

(Gawd, for a lurker I sure am long-winded!)

This board means something to me. I get a lot from it. I would feel a little lost without it.

* my reasons aren't interesting nor particularly unique to others' explanations for why they (have or continue to) lurk here but I soothe myself with the idea that my taking-without-giving is pretty much harmless and far preferable how stressed out I get when I do post here and feel inadequate.

00:52 / 05.10.06

Now you wouldn't want to fuck up my perfect life by taking this away would you?

No ... No I mean of course not, no. Absolutely not.

Perhaps (well actually pretty clearly,) the remark re: aggression fell a bit flat. It essentially sucked.

What I was attempting to get at was basically this; Tom C, keep going, you're doing the right thing. The world's really a better and more interesting place courtesy of your work; it'd be a terrible shame if you packed in now.

(One of those ghastly 'smiley' things, for which I formally apologise.)

01:33 / 05.10.06

I've gotten bored by the insularity and constant squabbles. I've found other boards that are just as insightful without the angst. I still come back about once or twice a week, but I rarely feel comfortable or welcome in the new atmosphere. I personally don't enjoy Barbelith much anymore, but I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority.

Should it be shut down? No, I don't think so, but if it was I don't think I'd waste much time pining.

ONLY NICE THINGS

01:40 / 05.10.06

Interesting. Which boards are those, Lekvar?

(I'm actually pretty much dividing my time between Barbelith and the JBF these days, myself. John and I understand each other.)

01:49 / 05.10.06

Tom,

I rub your feet.

I am the red wriggler to your rich compost, the lowly flea to your broad vessel, the humble supplicant to your vast and cavernous HALL OF MIGHTY RENOWN.

I anoint your brow with perfumed oil, and feed you with fine Cairo dates.

I will kill for you again.

And have you checked out the wiki lately? It has color now.

Color BedHead created for your glory.

Amen,

grant. (not morrison)

ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!

03:52 / 05.10.06

I'm not a big contributor to this board, but I do value its existence. I learn a lot from here, and though there does seem to be a bit more fiteyfite than in the last few months than the two or so years I've been around (first year or so as a non-registered lurker), I think it's definitely worth keeping.

Unless you're losing thousands of pounds per year on it, probably.

*

03:56 / 05.10.06

Sorry, Tom. I love you but I love Barbelith more.

04:23 / 05.10.06

But you wouldn't want to fuck up Tom's perfect life by having Barbelith taken away from him though, would you, id? Or would you ...

06:29 / 05.10.06

It doesn't need to shut down, no. I do think it needs to change, though, and I, like Dix-Neuf, would be happy to pay Cal to code those changes.

06:32 / 05.10.06

Me too.

07:30 / 05.10.06

I'm definitely still enjoying Barbelith. Rumblings of it being shut down would force me to post a modified version of the Firefly theme song.

And you wouldn't want that would you?

Would you?

07:47 / 05.10.06

Okay - thanks guys for your thoughts. It's reassuring to know that the whole thing has meaning to people.

08:18 / 05.10.06

I still enjoy Barbelith, though I would really prefer if the community had some meaningful input into the direction of the place. As it stands, you are the only person who can implement changes, Tom, and you don't have the time to do so.

10:36 / 05.10.06

I'm totally with Gnaesh and Dix Neuf. It's not that Barbelith needs to be shutdown - God knows it can still be really interesting, stimulating, educational and funny, and it's still a great at bringing people together both IRL and online - but it doesn need to be tweaked. We need to able to deal with shit in a timely and efficient fashion, and that means mods need new powers, or the board needs to be looked at structurally, possibly both.

Tom, like the man says, I love you to bits, and I miss your contributions (you have always been one of my favourite posters) but Barbelith has a life of its own with it's ups and downs and that life has little to do with you as a person. So long as the board isn't causing you grief and/or costing you money (the guy's making a profit at the mo', folks), and people are still enjoying it, then I say keep it open.

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