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A clash of civilisations is approaching, and liberals could do with a strong dose of Thucydides.

 
  

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paranoidwriter waves hello
09:09 / 29.09.06
The subject is Time.

The questions are always about seeking truth.

The man's a sci-fi writer.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
09:13 / 29.09.06
Can yuo elborate on that please.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:17 / 29.09.06
Ig: Ex asked:

Could any more informed member of the board tell me if there are any examples from history (classical or otherwise) where totally slaughtering the shit out of everyone DIDN'T seem like such a good idea, later? Any unjustified genocides? Any appallingly misjudged wastage of human life?

Melos was an apallingly misjudged wastage of human life. The arguments for and against andrapodismos were advanced by Cleon and Diodorus in Thucydides, in the debate over Mytilene. The Athenians understood perfectly well the idea of prisoners and of subjugation - they just chose not to apply them in the case of the citizens of Melos deciding that they did not want to be a part of the Delian league or pay subs to the Athenians, allegedly for the defence of Melos against Persian reoccupation but increasingly to prosecute a war against other Greeks which was of little interest to them.

So, you're right, it wasn't a genocide, except insofar as each city state was culturally unique. On t'other hand, I don't know what they did with the bath houses... Melos was refounded by the Spartans after the war, so I imagine they probably gave them a bit of a rinse. In a sense, given that Melos was a city of Dorian Greeks and then became a city of Dorian Greeks again, you could take the long view and argue that it wasn't that great a tragedy. However, it was a bad thing at the time not only for the Melians (obvs), but also for the Athenians, as it hardened resistance to the Delian League and pretty much ruined the moral high ground they had been seeking to assert as the protectors of the Ionian Greeks against the Persians.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:19 / 29.09.06
PW: this "shorter paragraphs, shorter sentences, increasing rudeness" approach to dialogue is, I think, not working for you. Have you considered a less Lee Child tack?

Back ontopic:

"Wee Dhimmi Crankie."
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
09:24 / 29.09.06
Sorry, i really wasn't trying to be rude. Honest.

I was trying to cut the lengths of my posts down and stop (sigh) myself talking from a subjective viewpoint. i.e. what I believe and why I believe it.

I'm not vey good at this, am I?
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
09:26 / 29.09.06
The subjective viewpoint posting is far more preferable to the drive by obtuseness as typified at the top of this page.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:29 / 29.09.06
Okeydoke, PW. In which case, let's look at a hypothetical question. If I were to write and publish a story in which a time traveller made a series of accurate predictions, and then told you that in the future white people would be second-class citizens in a world run by black people, that the black people were submitting the white people to a rule of terrible savagery and cruelty, and that this future had come to pass because the white people had not killed all the black people when they had a chance, would I then be entitled to be all upset if people subjected that to any sort of critical examination? I mean, I can say that it is science-fiction, but it's also a story in which I, the writer, identify myself as myself and then tell a tale intended to highlight the dread consequences of not striking hard and mercilessly enough at the dark-skinned menace that even now threatens our freedoms. Try the same thing with Jews. That's not an acontextual act.

And the point of the gun, I think, in answer to Ig's question, is that he threatens to shoot him because he can't handle the truth. It is making his weak, liberal brain hurt.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
09:30 / 29.09.06
(threarot) Again, sorry. I'll work on a long, detailed post, and maybe (if it makes sense to me) I'll post it here or start a new thread in Temple or elsewhere about "Belief vs Reality".

Seriously, comrades, I don't know what other words to use to try to express that I am not being snidey or underhand. Please, just today, believe me when I say: "I LOVE BARBELITH". (/threadrot)
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
09:33 / 29.09.06
I dunno, pw. I'm afraid that the original story really disappointed me; I'm a fan of his Hyperion sequence (gotta love the Shrike) but I didn't think the short was much more than a thinly disguised and poorly thought through propaganda rant; I just don't think he put enough effort into thinking through likely reactions to current trends, he just extrapolated them. It's easy enough to say that if fundamentalism is on the rise today it'll be on the rise tomorrow, it's harder to figure out the likely societal opposing forces, and it just read like he got carried away.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:12 / 29.09.06
Well, I do know. That whole story was nothing more than an Islamophobic propaganda rant. I don't really know how it's rationally possible to put any other interpretation on it. The only motivations for so doing that I can see would be

a) Being in agreement with the author re: the wholesale slaughter of Muslims being A Good Thing;

b) Being a contrarian ass clown who has to say "sugar" if the other guy said "shite."
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
10:41 / 29.09.06
Three words

[though I notice Haus had said these words in reference to someone else's post upthread as well, I still offer: ]

DO YOU SEE?
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
10:46 / 29.09.06
b) Being a contrarian ass clown who has to say "sugar" if the other guy said "shite."

Well, I for one hate "shite" in my morning coffee. Two lumps? Sheesh...

*ducks, and suddenly runs out the room, again, red-faced, a little blinded, and spilling brown liquid everywhere on his way out the door*
 
 
Char Aina
10:54 / 29.09.06
it's a horror story, though, innit. in a horror story you have to play on people's fears, and he's playing on people's fear of islamic hegemony.
it may require dollops of folly to be party to it, but it's undeniable fear of islamic hegemony is real for some folks.
a pretty hideous thing to use as a device, but i'm sure the story has resonance for an awful lot of people, islamophobic and borderline.


also, taking your trust and fucking with it seems to me to be a pretty common horror device. that the nature of this dudes trust-fuck is clearly xenophobic is troubling, but not entirely surprising.

it reminds me of tales of predatory women, far more common in fiction than in my reality.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:09 / 29.09.06
But it's not just a horror story which happens to be based on the idea of an Islamic hegemony. It's propaganda. The reader isn't expected to put the book down, go "Oooh, bit creepy that," then make a cup of tea and forget about it. It's a horror story constructed with the specific aim of creating and spreading Islamophobic panic. It specifically encourages people to act in a certain way. The writer openly states that he wants us all to stop worrying about those silly little infringments of civil liberties and incy-wincy human rights abuses because the MUSLIMS ARE COMING! FEAR THE MUSLIMS!! FEEEEEEAAAAAR THEM!!! He wants the reader to think and act accordingly. He wants you to adopt the attitude that Muslims are a threat. He wants this attitude to inform the way you respond to the world around you: the way you respond the war, to the political goings on in your own country, and to your Muslim neighbour. The writer would like this fear to inform the your choice of political candidate. He would like it to inform the letters you write to the newspaper, the groups you donate money to, and so on. The writer wants you to be afraid, and in your fear, begin to hate.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:22 / 29.09.06
What Mordant is saying here is kinda obvious, and its a little surprising that it needs spelling out.

For myself, I quite enjoyed the story in a way. I liked the device of a disappointed grandson accusing his traitor grandfather - I think such things can be powerful, in terms of establishing but then undermining identity. Obviously the whole thing is disgustingly Islamophobic, but (and I realise that this is probably a flaw on my part) I found the thing to be so absurd, that I couldn't help but chuckle. I realise I was meant to feel fear, but instead I had a rather rapid realisation that the writer was a screaming loony (making sure we all know he won a fantasy prize was an excellent start, I thought). Any sense of proportion, thoughtfulness or consideration goes right out of the window until you are left with a frothing, self regarding rant delivered at what seems like a high pitched scream. It almost reaches the level of parody.

In the end, though, the scary thing that does occur to you is that there could be important people making vital military and political decisions who are much closer to blind xenophobic panic than I'd like.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
11:34 / 29.09.06
I watched Death Wish 3 a couple of days ago for sheer camp/retro fun value, and it astounds me how similar the tone of this bit of "fiction" is.

Not much in common on the surface, but the undertone -- if we could just rise up and eliminate the people we just instinctively know are scum [even though real-life examples are always less cut-and-dried and reality has an unpleasant habit of casting things in shades of grey]... well, by gum, the world would be better. Because we were strong and decisive.

Way back on Page 1, I made a snide comment about Muslim* "time travellers," but it holds. Nothing Simmons says here couldn't be flipped to have Arabian Augurs from a Future Furor proclaiming dire warnings to Mohammadian Moderates: "SEEK NOT MIDDLE GROUND, TRUE BELIEVER, LEST THIS BE... THE DAY ETERNITY DIES!"
Just Imagine Stan Lee... In The Middle East!

Seriously, though. If the Western time travellers get us going all-out nutso, and the Middle Eastern time travellers get everyone there going full-bore, we're all doomed.

So I repeat: fuck off, time travellers.

*And I'm aware that many insurgents aren't even Muslim, but I'm phrasing this in Simmons' terms.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:06 / 29.09.06
I so want a T-shirt now.

 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
13:00 / 29.09.06
"chocolate isn't fattening"

beside all the reasons this is silly in terms of believing that all muslims want to attack "us", I have to agree that it seems ridiculous to me that even in the darkest, most conservative corner of his nutjob brain he thinks "they" can. Does he think Bin Laden purchased some mythical military force and a couple thousand nukes on the black market and is building silos in his afghani hideout? There's a difference between facing guerrilla resistance in somebody's home turf and fearing the success of a large-scale counterattack.

what scares me maybe even more than the nastiness of this story and its implication that to "win" in Iraq we should commit some sort of atrocity there, is the point that there really are people - and probably many of them are currently in charge - who think that a viable platform for election is "rebuilding our military!" because spending more on tanks and planes than the rest of the world put together just isn't enough to safeguard our freedoms, or whatever. there really are people who think that the US/UK could be conquered ANY DAY NOW by some foreign force.

I also found so ridiculous that it made me laugh the idea that without the US or whoever the good guys are supposed to be messing with foreign powers, not only does Islam turn us all into slaves, but Russia, Canada, South America, etc. all fall to pieces. I guess it's supposed to be clear that these places are all run by idiots who can't keep things together without our influence, or something.
 
 
Quantum
13:32 / 29.09.06
By chance I happen to be reading the Hyperion Omnibus at the moment as a part of my crap sci-fi binge, so I was interested to find out the author is a fearmonger. I was particularly taken by this paragraph;

"I give you an Asian world in chaos, a Pacific rim ruled by China after the vacuum of America’s withdrawal – this nation’s full resources devoted to fighting, and possibly losing, the Century War – a South America and Mexico lost to corruption and appeasement, a resurgent Russian Empire that has reclaimed its old dominated republics and more, and a Canada split into three hateful nations.”

So, without America's continued intervention, Asia reverts to barbarism, China rises to power (argh! Commies!) the Latin Americas falling into their naturally corrupt ways, the Russki menace resurgent (Commies! Better dead than red!) and Canadian civil war.
What? U.S. foreign policy is preventing all this catastrophe? Thank God, I never realised what we owe them. I take back everything, what I thought was racist jingoism is actually THE TRUTH FROM THE FUTURE!

Haus, you must send me one of those T-shirts or Australia and Africa will descend into atomic, biological and chemical war in fifty years...GRANDFATHER!
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
13:32 / 29.09.06
Haus, your hypothetical story sounds like Farnham's Freehold, you are Robert Heinlein and I claim my something or other.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:51 / 29.09.06
Dark future averted. Thank heavens.
 
 
Quantum
18:35 / 29.09.06
It's all going to be OK, the kids are training to be soldiers for God just as dedicated as the Muslim Menace and are praying to George W Bush. I can't wait to see this, here's a trailer...
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
18:45 / 29.09.06
Holy fucking shit Quantum you just scared the living fuck out of me.

I had heard of this movie, but hadn't checked it out.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
18:47 / 29.09.06
And... "Jesus?"...."Camp?"....

Made me go "OO-er!"
 
 
Quantum
18:48 / 29.09.06
Check out Saving Holly. "My parents are dealing with the parents, and I'm dealing with Holly..." children brainwashing each other, it's like village of the damned or stepford wives or something.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
18:51 / 29.09.06
Or (sp?) Midwitch Cuckoos?
 
  

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