BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


How Long Has The World Been Ending?

 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:53 / 28.09.06
So, if the crazy islamofascists don't blow us up in their jihad it'll be the mad Christian End-Timers trying to bring about the Rapture, and if we dodge them then the United States will kill us all to get our petrol/maize/water, otherwise it'll be a meteorite or a gamma burst that'll sterilise the planet and which we won't even see coming, plus the milky way is moving out of the habitable zone of the night sky and who knows what rocks are in the interstellar void, and if none of those get us, well the Mayans must have ended their calender in 2012 for a reason, right? RIGHT?

Inspired by this thread and the world around us, I'm wondering where the assumption that we are living in the End of Days comes from, and how long it's been with us. I understand that the first generation of Christians believed the End of the World would come in their lifetime and nice cuddly people like Tim LeHaye know they're going to be Raptured in their lifetime. So is this just that the same little cultists that have always existed get a disproportionate amount of airtime through our global media, or is this a new era now?
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
13:22 / 28.09.06
I wonder if greater value isn't leant their beliefs by the general knowledge that we're now very much capable of wiping out life on Earth ourselves?

Previously it would've taken an Act of God; now it'd just take any one of several Acts of Man, and we're aware of external threats - remote but plausible enough - which would also suffice.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
14:00 / 28.09.06
I understand that 1000 AD was supposed to be the Big Millennial Apocalypse.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:06 / 28.09.06
I understood that to be an urban myth, on the grounds that 'your avergae peasant' didn't know it was 999 AD. May have been of some vague interest to the clergy.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
15:24 / 28.09.06
I confess that this is topic that fascinates me... However I'm writing this because (I think) I can shed some light on the importance of the concept apoc... generally.

It is a central concept in the three main branches of the abrahamic religions (islam, judiac, christian) I suspect that we can say then that it's origin is at least 2.5 K years ago. In addition we can take the origins back further because, I vaguely remember this being referred to in Georges Dumezil's wonderful work on indo-european myth.... which is incidentally the common mythical root of the three monotheistic religions mentioned above as well as hinduism etc.

I'm not sure I can prove it, but I rather think that the scientific fixation on minor apocylypses derive from the same indo-european origins as the mythical ones.

At one time I started collecting the scientific ones but just couldn't keep up with the numbers the idiots were generating... (Lyotard's postmodern fable is still my favorite pm one... only 3.5 billion years wrong !)

So i'd answer the above question with a 'NO' in the sense that a western (indo-european) myth does not have the same social purpose as an non-western (indo-iranian ) myth. Because whilst death may be a universal - the specific apocylypses are perhaps not...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:50 / 28.09.06
2.5 thousand years ago? I presume you are taking it back to when the Jewish religion kicked off (I'm asking, I genuinely don't know)? As the Torah is the only book I haven't got round to yet, can someone sidebar an explanation of the Jewish concept of the end of the world? I was under the impression (again, I haven't read the books) that it ended with the vague hope that the Messiah would be coming... any minute now... just you wait and see...
 
 
sdv (non-human)
18:12 / 28.09.06
Yes that's right - I'm referencing the Jewish Apocalyptic and messianic tradition, and whilst I'm fuzzy about the precise dates, once it's accepted that the apocalyptic tradition predates the christian aspect of the tradition... (even perhaps back to gilgamesh ?) Then the strange desire of the fundamentalists to resurrect the linear time of the christian tradition and enter messianic time becomes understandable. (It's one of the ways they maintain their repressive communities in the image of the past, why they would want to live in the middle ages is a mystery but it's fascinating how the messianic time which precedes the eschaton (eternity) is so appallingly medieval in all the normal christian/judiac/islamic representations...)

The torah request I may be able to help you with as well I'd recommend for a contemporary rendition of the Jewish/Christian apocalyptic tradition Giorgo Agamben's 'The Time That Remains'. Which contains some interesting segueways between the Jewish, Christian and what he identifies as Benjamin's secular co-option of the messianic tradition. The argument being that the messianic and thus apocalyptic tradition are central to the western tradition...

I feel i should reference the other indo-european traditions that have apocalyptic traditions but have little supporting references to hand...

and as you might say - this is not something that you can trust the internet about...
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
18:15 / 28.09.06
The world doesn't end when the Messiah arrives, that is when it starts. I think it is important to seperate ideas of 'The End of The World' from ideas of Apocalypse.

The revelation of knowledge from God that will happen during the Hebrew Apocalypse could be interpreted as an end of the world as we know it but is by no means the actual end of days (much like the end of the Mayan calendar doesn't need to mean the world will end, just be different after that date).

I am feeling the babble/ramble coming on so I will stop for the moment and return when I have my thoughts in order.
 
 
HCE
18:36 / 28.09.06
I've been looking to see what I can find out about what the Dogon have to say about end times, and at the moment I haven't yet found any mention of a such a thing. Will keep reading and report back if I find anything. Or does anybody else know? Does Jung talk about a Last-Days archetype?
 
 
grant
19:09 / 29.09.06
It wouldn't be an archetype, I don't think, exactly -- but since Freud's later writings dealth with the war between eros/libido (life force) and thanatos/destrudo (urge to death), I'd be surprised if Jung didn't deal with that at all.

In Hinduism, you've got the yugas -- I think these first show up in writing in the Vishnu Purana, but the idea's probably older than that text. Yugas are cycles of creation & destruction -- essentially circular, but with a beginning and ending built in, separated by some kind of division. To answer the question posed in the topic abstract, they're probably not "just the death of the individual magnified to a social group level," because they're so darn cosmic, for one thing, but also seem intimately involved with declining morals and general dwindling of kindness. They do seem to follow a similar kind of structure, but in a more complicated way.

There's a pretty well-defined Zoroastrian apocalypse, in which the world is purified by fire. Wikipedia's "eschatology" article says the Zoroastrian last days were "clarified" (which I think means "written down") by 500 B.C. It also describes Native American prophecies, Buddhist end times beliefs and links out to a passel of fun.

But more recently, in Judeo-Christianity, the foundation of the state of Israel was kind of a big deal, in that it seems to fulfill some apocalyptic prophecies involving things like the rebuilding of the Temple and that. So there's been a resurgence of interest in that approach -- the literal fulfillment of prophecy -- to scriptural descriptions of Last Days.
 
 
HCE
23:04 / 29.09.06
Very interesting. Is there any correlation between climate and presence of end times myths? I'm wondering whether cultures that have arisen in areas that don't have much of a winter have a different take on things?
 
 
grant
02:31 / 30.09.06
Well, the Zoroastrians come from Iran (and seem to have inspired a bit of Judeo-Christian cosmology), I'm not sure what part of India the Hindu stuff is from, but some of the clearest End Times/world change stuff among Native Americans is from the Hopis (and i *think* is echoed in cultures further south, but am not sure about that -- like the Mayan Long Count calendar coming to an end in 2012. They lived pretty near the equator, but I suspect there's a lot of extrapolation going on with the calendar business).

(And I don't know what to make of the Q'ero pachacuti prophecies either, although there seems to be something to them, and the Incas lived right on the equator, just about.)

Oh, and there are some things about early Christian apocalypticism. First thing is there's plenty of wiggle room around what exactly the "reign of God" or "Kingdom of Heaven" actually meant -- one of the ideas that I think is in the canonic gospels but is definitely in the Gospel of Thomas (which predates them, and may have been a source text for two or more of them) is that the Kingdom of Heaven is all around us all the time.

This matches, by the way, the literal meaning of "apocalypse" -- an unveiling. Removing the concealment or cover.

The Apocalypse of St. John actually doesn't mention "End Times" as much as the return of Christ and the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven (and the burning of the Beast in the Lake of Fire).
 
 
sdv (non-human)
11:29 / 01.10.06
I was wondering about the non-indo-european areas so pleased to see some references to the amerind myths/cultures. I have no material to hand but I wonder if anyone can point towards similar myths in the sino-tibetian myths/cultures ?

Worth noting/or/remembering in the indo-european myths that the Norse gods also have the same apocalyptic and messianic structures. More difficult to interpret but still relavent the Egyptian 'book of the dead' does make me think that it contains similar mythical structures (approx 1800 bc according to Budge.

My emphasis of the indo-european is because of the importance of messianic/apocylyptic (m/a) aspects amoungst all the IE myths, and the unbderlying structure may be the same thing as the trinary functions that dumezil and later deleuze/guattari (amoungst others) refer to. I rather think that the evidence supports the generic importance of m/a aspects in all our cultures, at least until very recently. Think of it as part of the 'apparatus of capture'...that reactionary christians use the messianic/apocylyptic myths to attempt to maintain the apparatus and to avoid the challenge of the techno-social changes that are supplanting these (religious) myths whose purpose seems to be to support the ....

That we
 
 
sdv (non-human)
14:27 / 01.10.06
Humm a thought on a rainy afternoon....... the neo-liberal dream that we had had accomplished /or/reached the hegelian '...end of history...' - just another failed apocalypsousa ? and some others...without drifiting into thoughts about the actual/probable future it occurs to me that we can place the christian m/a (messianic apocalypse) in the context of the following: "...the roman empire as well as every constituted authority that clashes and hides katargesis, the state of tendential lawlessness that charecterises the messianic..." (Agamben) as in when the (christian) empire of the modern holy roman empire exists the end times of its profane power... the christian insanity of believing in the endtimes is a vulgar reflection of this ?

But let's never forget the apocalyptic visions of the islamic reactionary multitude who would sacrifice the world for allah and a few virgins.

death of the individual ? no a myth that shows an ideological structure... Personally I think we are seeing these versions die - as once odin, romulus and numa ended.

sorry its raining and i'm musing on dying cultures...
 
 
sdv (non-human)
16:04 / 01.10.06
ugh - what I'm trying to suggest and have been failing badly at, is that the messianic and apocalyptic elements are best recognized as part of ideological structures that are common across a wide range of human cultures, most specifically the indo-european ones but also in other related lines.

After a little more thought I'd suggest that the reason for the appear of the 'end of history' and the 'end times' line is perhaps best understood through a recognition that the linear nature of the discourse and single framed narratives like the simplistic metanarratives of Islamic and Christian fundamentalism no longer sell. It simply means they must of necessity be increasingly bizarre because they completely fail to perceive the ever widening gap between their story and the world as it actually is, for they cannot really capture the opaqueness of our emerging global multi-dimensional reality. The ideological structures obviously that reflect something essential to the 'apparatus of capture' which is the state(s)/culture(s), but in the sudden increase in complexity the metanarratives are no longer capable of fulfilling the function... Just because these variants have been wildly successful for such a long time doesn't mean they are true...

there that seems better...just hope it's clearer what i was trying to say and why i'm interested in this.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:16 / 02.10.06
Grant- So is the Christian end times an (eventual) cleansing of earth of all the bad things so a new age can begin? I rather assumed it was heaven in heaven, not heaven on earth.
 
 
Olulabelle
08:18 / 02.10.06
Mystical Judaism tells of the Lamad Vavniks, or the Tzaddikim; thirty six righteous men who keep the world alive by being alive themselves. It's said that if they all die then the world would end. From the wikipedia link about them: "For the sake of these 36 hidden saints, God preserves the world even if the rest of humanity has degenerated to the level of total barbarism."

As a concept I think this is interesting because the tzaddikim do not know that they themselves are the righteous men, and do not know who the other 35 are either. So essentially it suggests that any one of us could be one of the thirty six and I suppose if you believe it would make you more inclined to behave in a righteous fashion.
 
 
grant
15:12 / 02.10.06
So is the Christian end times an (eventual) cleansing of earth of all the bad things so a new age can begin? I rather assumed it was heaven in heaven, not heaven on earth.

No, it's Christ returning to establish a New Jerusalem and to reign over the remade Earth. This is tied in with earlier thoughts about resurrection of the dead, though (which I think go back to the Old Testament, but am not sure).

Here, Revelation 21 (which is the second-last chapter of the Bible):

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


This happens right after the big judgement at the end of chapter 20. Everything is remade.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
09:15 / 04.10.06
HUm... In an attempt to broaden the concept of the apocalypse and to continue to suggest that it's a more central concept than just mere christianity...

Consider the following from the Independent today: "The century of drought: One third of the planet will be desert by the year 2100, say climate experts in the most dire warning yet of the effects of global warming..."

Of course if you want to imagine that the apocalypse is merely a christian delusion...
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:26 / 04.10.06
You are saying - like Bush and oil companies - the the worst predictions of climate change are delusions?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
19:01 / 06.10.06
Not so - rather that the concept of the apocalype, like that related concept of the messiah, is more important than any of the associated religious delusions. Neither concept actually requires a transcendental figure to be useful. We after all do need to recognize the long history of the concept and the way in which we have to deal with global warming...
 
  
Add Your Reply