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Body size and weight

 
 
Ex
10:58 / 27.09.06
The issue of body size seems to have cropped up on Barbelith a bit, of late – most notably in the context of catwalk fashion, and
camera features
– and I thought a Head Shop thread on body size/shape and culture might be productive.

I feel as though the last couple of years have brought body size into focus in an unprecedented way. UK Magazines now specialise in details of celebrity weight gain and loss. A concern in the US and UK over obesity keeps surfacing in the news.
Size is being politicised (in a way somewhat similar to the politicisation of gender and disability). This kicked off decades ago in the 1980s with texts such as Susie Orbach’s Fat is a Feminist Issue (of which I can't argue the title’s point, but don't like the conclusion) and a growing awareness of eatign disorders (See Orbach’s Hunger Strike, Bordo’s Unbearable Weight and the chapter ‘Hunger’ in Wolf’s The Beauty Myth). The Size Acceptance and Fat Acceptance movements interest me (I’ll stick up some texts later in the thread – mostly I’ve been reading websites and random zines). They ask questions about how the scientific, medical and social research are conducted and reported, and also about more general cultural beliefs.

One thing I never expected to see was an awareness of eating disorders in the mainstream media, which is then used as a tool to tell women what shape their bodies should be. Part of Naomi Wolf's point was that if people knew anorexia existed, something would be done. Now, 'Celeb denies anorexia' or 'Celeb admits bulimia' have become just another two headlines – any political analysis of how eating disorders function in society has been lost, and they've become a sign of personal trauma or weakness.

I wanted to get a bit anecdotal, I hope helpfully. Whenever I'm offered a biscuit at work, if I turn it down, the biscuit-owner will say 'You're so good.' And recently, the woman from whom I buy chocolate has also started to tell me: 'You're so restrained.' She thinks I want more chocolate, and I'm denying myself, and that this denial has some moral worth. She is making less money out of me, but I still get praise.
Basically, I'm aware that to have my body type is to be read by a lot of people as farsighted, self-controlled, and rational. And frankly, if I wasn't aware of the trouble this system of rewards kicks up for everyone – myself, anyone larger than me, anyone smaller than me – I would start believing the propaganda. I'm good! I'm restrained! Go me!

I'm imagining this primarily as a thread about the cultural handling of body size, rather than science, but I can foresee overlaps. If anyone would like to start a parallel Lab thread, I'd be delighted. I'd ask people to be particularly thoughtful in framing their replies not to offend - indeed, the fact that one can't see the physical form of other posters is a debate in itself, but is certainly a motive for care.


I don’t mind in what direction this gets taken, but I thought I’d note a few things to kick off:

- I’m frustrated by the way the debate is often fashioned into two camps. Larger people are encouraged to insult thinner people, and thinner people are encouraged to say not only ‘Being thin has its down side’ (true) but also ‘…so fat people should stop complaining.’ (false conclusion). In a sense (and I know how dodgy this analogy is) it reminds me of chaps who realize gender is messing them up, and instead of noticing that gender is messing everyone up, conclude that feminists should stop complaining. Dictates around body size are messing everyone up. I’m not dismissing the idea of fat acceptance, because I think there’s a specific need for it and it doesn’t (largely) seem grounded in slagging off other body sizes. But the specific tendency to take sides rather than unite against the whole shebang infuriates me.

- I’ve had intriguing off-board conversations with a fellow Barbelith poster about whether the solution for individuals is to get back to the needs and requirements of one’s real body, trying to clear away all the cultural stuff that confuses what and when one eats and acts. While I find this appealing – and it’s the basis for a lot of advice on disordered eating – I’m not sure there is a ‘real’ body to get back to – I suspect that we have such culturally mediated relationship with body size and food that the best we can do is learn to negotiate with the systems.

- I’m interested in the way body size is often presented as entirely ‘rational’ (for want of a better word) – body size is entirely attributable to the conscious behaviour of the person involved, and thus any credit or blame is theirs alone. This seems to be complicated only by introducing a supplementary ‘addiction’ model, in which a small minority of people have an eating disorder. I’d like to see more recognition that almost everyone falls between those two models; that food consumption is tied up in a lot of other social and mental processes.

So, there are three thoughts, and you all have others. I haven't begun this with a particular incident or theorist, but I can provide either if it helps the discussion.
In short: What the bloody hell is going on? And how can it be sorted out? And what would it look like, were it sorted?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:41 / 27.09.06
Nice thread. I think you might be right when you say you're not sure there's a 'real body' to get back to, or 'natural' eating styles one can re-educate oneself to practice that take into account what the human body actually needs, in terms of fuel. Eating is always about desire. On the other hand, I think there is something to the idea of learning what foods (and how much) refuel a body with particular kinds of energy. But that's really different for different bodies: there's no way to tell until you try out a whole lot of different food habits, and discover the one that makes you feel the best.

Australia is supposedly in the midst of an obesity epidemic, particularly affecting children, and recently the government's been running ads exhorting children to get active for half an hour, once a day. It's quite bizarre.

I don't know if this is relevant, but do you think it's worth investigating this not only in terms of body size, shape and weight, but also the cultural relationships between food and identity? A lot of what you're talking about in your anecdote is about matching up how a person buys or eats with a moral universe in which particular eating/buying pracices are good, and others are bad. This is not so new, I guess, but it does feel to me that over the last ten years, eating practices have intensified as a field wherein people want to exert particular kinds of control over their diets, and see the way they practice 'food' or 'eating' as explicitly ideological and/or expressive of a larger community or identity. For example, the crazy huge explosion of veganism, and also 'slow food' movements, stuff like that. Most of the vegans I know are incredibly networked -- a vegan friend went to the US recently and got tips on all the vegan restaurants in various US cities before he went on livejournal. Yet when he arrived, he discovered that his idea of 'veganism' was not like what people he met were talking about: in the US the vegan restaurants served really processed, high-fat foods, ie fake meat burgers or hotdogs, with huge amounts of fake gravy, fake cheese and chips. Whereas here veganism relates culturally to an all-natural, healthy food culture: lots of fresh vegetables, less processed foods, less fake meats and vegan cheese; but also a whole archive of (anti) consumption practices like shopping at a food co-op rather than the supermarket; eating organic produce; recycling bottles and jars, etc.

Sugar, too, is a curious 'addiction', which has transformed since the 80's from association with children (rotting teeth, red cordial = hyperactivity) to an adult problem associated more with migraines, moodiness, emotional stability and clarity.
 
 
HCE
13:15 / 27.09.06
Thanks for bringing up this topic. One of the difficulties for me in thinking about this subject is that it's so slippery and multitentacled. How to talk about size, weight, and shape, without wrangling eating and the whole host of signals we send and receive when we do that? How to talk about these things without getting entangled with what the medical and pseudomedical communities try to tell us about health? There doesn't seem to be a way to contain the subject, interestingly, which may be one reason why it arouses such powerful emotions.

Mister Disco mentioned the difference between veganism as he's heard of or experienced it in the US and Australia. I'd like to mention a third -- I lived for a few months with a Jain family near the northwestern part of India. They have religious and cultural reasons for their diet which excludes not only animal matter but also potatoes, carrots, onions, and garlic: the roots of plants. The emphasis there was less like the American model of reproducing meatless versions of meaty foods (though I'd like to point out that of course there is a vibrant movement at least here in Los Angeles that tends to focus more on seasonal and organic fruits and vegetables and stewardship of the soil) and seemed to be more about eating for health and enjoyment.

There was a similar attitude toward bodies -- that they were to be kept healthy and enjoyed -- and a wide range of body styles were considered healthy and enjoyable, with an emphasis on specificity -- having the healthiest body you could have, rather than emulating somebody else's healthy body. I don't want to fall into the trap of romanticizing a culture different from my own, but I think that my ideal world would include measuring health by function rather than appearance. Does it feel good to live in the body I have? Do the parts of it work together harmoniously? Does it have the strength to do the things I want it to do?

Trying to think less in terms of how a revolutionary or free body would look and more in terms of how it would work.

Must run for class so apologies for a not wholly coherent post, but will try to return tomorrow.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
13:52 / 27.09.06
fred -- just a post-script -- I'm sure there are plenty of pockets of vegan culture which are about health, but the other kind is almost non-existent hree, so maybe that's why my friend was so taken aback.

It is almost impossible to contain this topic!
 
 
Kevin Marks
20:45 / 27.09.06
The Shangri-La Diet insight is a fascinating one here - the underlying theory is that our body's self-regulate calorie intake, but they aren't actually very good at it (using flavour as an indicator). The 'diet' works by tricking your body by eating tasteless calories, and then it just stops you feeling hungry.
This works as a way to lose weight, but the backlash is what is fascinating, as those who consider weight loss a kind of applied masochism weigh into the debate around it.
 
 
sorenson
21:50 / 27.09.06
This is a really interesting thread.

Something that I think about a lot with regard to all of this is the way that food is part of a chain that ends for many people these days in confidence and sexuality – in a sense of identity. That is, food and eating is understood to be directly related to one’s weight and appearance, which in turn directly influences one’s sense of self-worth and sexiness. For me, the end result of this is an almost constant battle between the pleasures of food and the pleasures of feeling good about the way I look. It’s a battle that I try and resolve by choosing foods that will hopefully maximise both – for me, that’s a lot of organic fresh vegetables and fruit (home grown if possible) and whole foods (all rather expensive); for other people it might be a lot of pre-packaged products marketed as ‘healthy’ or ‘light’. So food is, of course, inextricable with the drive for profits – the more people worry that they are fat, the more they buy particular kinds of products, whether that’s particular kinds of food or weight-loss products or books/media.

Does anybody else feel like there is something Foucauldian about it all – didn’t he say something about how the so called repression of sex was actually an explosion of discourse about it? Sometimes it seems the more taboo it becomes to be overweight, the more obsessive talk (discourse) there is about obesity and diet and the more overweight people there are (in America and Australia at least). And is it really so bad? I would like to hear more from any Barbelithers who about the health side of it. Certainly where I work, in government in Australia, the health impacts of obesity are a huge issue, especially the growing incidence of type 2 diabetes (all within a context of course of prevention being cheaper than cure for governments to provide, and you want more healthy people so they can work harder and improve GDP).
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:33 / 28.09.06
It should be noted that over the course of reading this thread, I realized I was hungry, got up, and made dinner. I'm not sure if I'm highly suggestible to the idea of food and even the thought of dietary analysis makes me hungry, or if it was mere coincidence.

Disco: But that's really different for different bodies: there's no way to tell until you try out a whole lot of different food habits, and discover the one that makes you feel the best.

I'm curious how often people experiment with their diets - and I don't mean capital-D "Diets" - by simply adjusting their habits to see what happens? I've been working on this myself, recently. Working an often unpredictable schedule means not always eating at the same time, or having enough time to eat in the morning, et cetera - and I'm trying to regulate my eating patterns and adjust what I'm eating a bit more. There's also something in there about limiting how often I eat out, but it's ultimately felt quite empowering to make the adjustments even if the effects aren't readily apparent. If you can manage to seperate out the guilt element, playing with your eating habits can be a lot of fun.

Oddly, I have noticed some effects - I feel less self-conscious about my body, even if very little has actually changed. That might just be the emotion-stabilizing influence of regulating your body a bit and eating more things that improve one's mood, though.
 
 
HCE
21:31 / 28.09.06
Another shape variation: the aged or aging body. There seems to be little tolerance of signs of age, and a general assumption that people don't like getting older. Examples from my experience include stylists with no mental model other than 'hippie' (which I am not) for a woman who doesn't want to dye her grey hair and younger people apologizing for using the term 'old' in front of me as though I would consider it an insult (which I do not). I had sort of hoped that in the US, as the baby boomers aged, there would be greater comfort with older bodies. Instead I find that ever older women are pressed to conform to a late-teen model of sexual attractiveness. See also Viagra, plastic surgery.
 
 
illmatic
09:27 / 02.10.06
I’m sufficiently interested in this topic to bump this thread but, but I’m not sure I’ve got much to say. This may be a bit a post in search of meaning. Any help much appreciated.

So has anyone got much to say about male body images? I know that male bodies and appearance are read and “policed” a lot less aggressively than women’s, but I’ve heard in media discussions of body size issues are men are increasingly negatively affected. Does anyone have any idea if this has any basis in truth, or is it perhaps a side-effect of the explosion in discourse around the issue? (Hmm, Perhaps not

I’ve been flirting with weight training recently, as an extension of martial arts training and it brings out some interesting issues. I notice conflicting identifications in myself. On one hand, I’d like to be more muscular, but on the other hand I view this desire as vaguely ridiculous. It seems I buy into the myth of the muscular male and resist it at the same time. On one hand, an obsession with having huge biceps seems a very unexamined way of expressing one’s masculinity - however, now my arms have got a bit bigger I quite like it!I do think if my masculinity was solely expressed in this way it'd be a bit tragic. Many women have told me that they are they are more attracted to skinny guys than muscular hunks, and I’m sure this is in part this is resisting dominant or narrow ideas of masculinity and attractiveness. Interestingly enough, in one body-building gym I visited I was asked if I was a neurotic about my body/skinniness. The trainer asking was kind of disappointed when I said I wasn’t, as this tends to make people train a lot harder!

Also, it’s worth noting that the act of subjecting the male body to the kind of gaze that one does in body building is odd. I’ve never encountered discussions of another man’s calves or chest development before, and it still feels a little camp.

Possibly another thread worth following might be the side-effects of strength and fitness on the sense of self. And masculinity. There's some really interesting and very funny stuff at the beginning of Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength (a bodybuilding book I've just brought) which reflects this: Strength is the most important thing in life... A weak man is not as happy as the same man would be if he were strong. This reality is offensive to some people who would like the intellectual or spiritual to take precedence. It is instructive to see what happens to these people once their squat strength goes up.

I’d be interested to hear from anyone male of female who’s improved their strength and it’s effect on their sense of self – I would spin this off into another thread but I feel it may be a minority interest!
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:03 / 02.10.06
I'd have a little bit to say about body shape and masculinity, Pegs, but maybe that would do better in another thread?

As for the current thread, I'm not sure I have much to add beyond the anecdotal which I have no idea how to tie together in a coherent way. But let me offer some experiences anyway. I am pretty overwight, fat, at the moment and it is something that bothers me. But its hard not to notice that, even for a man, there is a constant pressure from others to do something about my weight. Now clearly if I start moaning about my size I deserve everything I get. But I'm astonished at how frequently people will comment on my body - in cute and friendly ways, often, but with a frequency that says something more.

But probably the most interesting experience I've had in this regard is on a recent visit to Italy, when I saw my extended family for the first time in years, and realised how differently they viewed the body, in particular my body, than I was used to. That is, the criticism of my weight - all in the name of friendly advice - was so
extreme that I was often taken aback about how to respond. Of course, in those situations, where one the prevailing attitude to a person's body means that standard reactions seem offensive does a lot to hammer home the fact that these attitudes are cultural, and vary. And clearly, I'm used to an attitude whereby direct, uninvited criticisms about body weight are somewhat frowned upon. That doesn't give me any idea of how to sort body image and attitudes...but it makes it clear to me how it could be worse.
 
 
Axolotl
10:47 / 02.10.06
Interesting Pegs. As part of my attempt to contribute to the Headshop more I'll chip in but please be gentle as I am a headshop n00b and also perforce involves discussing my own personal body issues.
Until the last couple of years I completely neglected my fitness merely viewing it as a thing to transport my brane around. As I started working in an office and getting "swivel-chair spread" I took up going to the gym to counteract this, and found discovering my physicality a curiously enjoyable process, almost to my own surprise and despite my intellectual distaste for such things (almost viewing it as a surrender to vanity I guess). Incidentally I have also had to defend my gym going to some of my friends for exactly the reasons I have some ambivalence about the process.
This dichotomy has been exacerbated as I've recently started using free weights and coincidentally became acquainted with some guys who take this stuff very seriously and are built the proverbial brick shit-house. When I explain that I'm doing this in an effort to improve my general fitness they automatically assume that I wish to "bulk up" and start giving me tips on how to do so and seem extremely puzzled when I explain that this is almost the opposite of my intention.
However, like Pegs, I have found the changes in my body curiously attractive and can see how easy it would be to start obssessing about this, wanting to look better, work out more. In an environment where looking better/ being more fit this is almost universally geared towards being more muscular I could see that this could easily turn into a desire to get ever bigger.
However I find the hyper-muscular "Mens-health Cover model" look particularly unattractive, so there's rather a weird conflict. I like my changed body, but feel bad about the vanity that this implies. I can see the attraction of being more muscular but also see the end result as curiously un-attractive.
Pegs: with regard to the gaze used in body building, it is a very strange feeling. While the floor to ceiling mirrors are very useful in getting the correct form it does feel weird staring at yourself in this concentrated way. I wish I knew more about the theories of the male gaze to see if any correlations could be drawn between that and the "body-builder's gaze" under discussion.
Well the post is a bit of dogs dinner and I've not touched on a lot of things that I'd like to. I am also slightly wary of comparing the male experience of body size and weight with that of the female experience, though it would appear that the pressure on men to fit a certain body type is increasing, though still not to the same extent it is on women but equally I'd need to do more research to state this definitely.
 
 
illmatic
11:05 / 02.10.06
I didn't find your post a dog's dinner, I thought it was very interesting (Lurid's as well). Though all of us seem to be struggling a little bit with where exactly to take these ideas and issues. Another thread might be an idea, as there's such a range of issues, but I think we can leave it here for now.

An old thread which might be of interest.
 
 
HCE
17:21 / 02.10.06
I am finding it very interesting to hear from the fellows about their experiences. My perception is that there are some constraints on how muscular a woman can be and still be considered 'feminine' -- I think part of my own desire to build physical strength and my happiness with visible muscle in my own body comes from wanting to be less easy to categorize.
 
 
illmatic
19:46 / 02.10.06
Fred, actually there's a female power lifter at my gym, who is very well built (far better than me!) and I think she's really attractive. I think it's the incongruity of the muscles plus the appearence of athleticism that makes her so. Of course, a lot of men wouldn't share this viewpoint.

There's been some theoretical work done on the politics of women's size - women who are muscular upset the masculine applecart in all sorts of ways. They offer a direct physical challenge to notions of male superiority, for one. I believe women's visibility in this way has also been correalated with political/economic visibility and "size" also.
 
 
Axolotl
18:04 / 04.10.06
You only need to look at the reaction to Madonna's muscles to see that people reckon women shouldn't be muscular (though I know the Daily Mail is hardly the most enlightened of sources).
Could that be tied to Peg's earlier comment about men whose entire masculinity is bound up with the size of their muscles, and that therefore a masculine women is threatening to them?
While doing a little light googling I found some interesting stuff about muscle dysmorphia, a kind of reverse anorexia in which people (generally men) are convinced they are too skinny and need to bulk up leading to obsessive weightlifting and steroid abuse. It's interesting to see how male and female body images taken to pathological levels are an almost exact mirror image.
 
 
nixwilliams
01:39 / 05.10.06
A conference idea that may interest some of you:

"Obesity: should there be a law against it? Australian and international perspectives on the obesity epidemic."
 
 
Olulabelle
10:47 / 05.10.06
I've read all those books; 'Fat is a Feminist Issue', and 'The Beauty Myth' and intellectually I understand the points they are making, but I am quite unable to translate those into my own life.

On television they have programmes about diet and image and style and I can apply that thinking to the women in the programmes - it doesn't matter that she is a size 16, she is a beautiful woman, but again I cannot apply that thinking to myself.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that this was the same for a lot of women. The general underlying consciousness seems to be that you can only allow others the 'normality' of being completely different sizes and shapes.

We all know about societal pressure but understanding it as a concept is not the same thing as recognising how it affects you personally. It's also easier to recognise the affect on your former self than your current self. I can look back at pictures of myself and think how amazing I looked, but at the time I felt just as unhappy with myself as I do now. Eighteen year old girls have absolutely no idea of their own beauty.

I'm interested in Lurid's point about cultural differences and I'm thinking that those differences apply through generations; in my thinnest moments when I was most happy and my peers thought I looked good, my Grandmother used to get very upset about being able to see my collar bones. So my idea of the perfect weight was clearly not the same as hers.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
16:04 / 06.10.06
A link of possible benefit: the Obesity Epidemic in Canada, which is suprisingly thorough. The "Causal Web of Factors" is especially interesting (about halfway down the page), if perhaps a bit light in some areas. It's good to see government understanding, at least in a minor way, that even relatively tangential things like transportation policies can have an effect on overall obesity levels.

One thing I genuinely don't understand is how there can be a simultaneous understanding that the media demands excessive thinness of people, and at the same time we're (North Americans, anyway) getting more and more obese. I mean, I have a sort of fuzzy

media applies pressure -> people feel guilty -> food marketed as substitute for self-worth -> people eat -> media tells them they're too fat -> rinse and repeat

cycle in my head as a kind of explanation, but I'm not satisfied with it.
 
 
sorenson
20:32 / 12.10.06
Lula, I could have written your post. So much so that all I can say is 'me too' (though it was my Mum who was worried about me being too skinny).

I know this doesn't add any value other than a reinforcement of what you said, but I was so gobsmacked at how every word could have come from my own mouth that I had to comment.

I guess it illustrates the success of the strategies to make women devalue themselves...
 
 
neutral
16:52 / 04.11.06
has anyone else looked into the gender divide in recommended calorie intake? Ive always wondered why Women have to eat less than men per day (esp. as we bleed once a month!!), the common response i get when i ask this is: thats because, well, Women are smaller arent they? Intriguingly, when i was doing a lot of reading for my dissertation i came across the idea that judeo-christian culture is responsible for this. Sikh culture requires that Women eat the same amount as men. Are Women destined to be lighter to appear more etheral? more humble and without a body that symbolises them as greedy? Its interesting to know that in victorian times a Woman showed her piety by being spiritually pure, perhaps these values and anxieties have been transferred onto the modern Female body? hope this makes sense!
 
 
Olulabelle
18:12 / 04.11.06
Culturally (at least in the western world) women are preferred to be smaller, but I think women actually are generally shorter and lighter than men. I would suppose this is why the calorie intake is less. I don't know much about the preferred size of women in other cultures, I would be interested to hear if anyone had any information on that and how if at all it relates to the actual weight and height of women. Is it even possible that the two things could be at all related?
 
 
gingerbop
01:55 / 10.11.06
I agree with gurami about the functunality of the body being more important than the appearance, but in practice I've found quite the opposite.

This spring, I was about a stone heavier than I am now, but felt fine, and as far as I'm concerned, looked healthy. At this time I had pressure from all sides to lose weight. For my teacher, it was for practical reasons (being easier to lift), but from everyone else there was no reasoning.

In the last 3 months (since my dad died), I've lost a lot of weight, and suddenly everyone's telling me I look great. But what is being ignored is that otherwise, I look unwell. People have completely overlooked that I am off-colour/lethargic, and have been for some time, in favour of seeing size first.

Personally, I don't care about my weight, but then I feel that it's very easy for me to say that as I've never had a major issue with it. The only thing that bothers me now is that it's uncomfortable to roll on my hips now, which is annoying more than anything else.

As for muscularity- in my line of work, none of the females are particularly bothered about being too muscular, but for one thing: broad shoulders. It means that wearing anything strapless is out the question, because we look like rugby players. Whether this becomes a bad thing only because of society, or whether it is actually a personal preferance, I couldn't precicely tell you.

As for calorie intake- I think it may be partly to do with the ratio of muscle to fat. Women have a percentage of body fat, which doesn't require fuelling from calories as muscle does.

I could be very wrong- that's just how I assumed it worked.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
21:49 / 13.11.06
gingerbop: In the last 3 months (since my dad died), I've lost a lot of weight, and suddenly everyone's telling me I look great.

I went through something very similar - lost a lot of weight relatively quickly, and a lot of people took it on themselves to tell me that I looked well. As Ex mentioned in hir opening post, it was easy to start identifying with a whole range of 'wellness' words; strong, healthy, pretty much anything else that springs to mind with that word.

Recently, I started going to a gym again, and was actually quite horrified with how unfit I was; my self-image was as someone who was healthy, because that had been reinforced to me for the last two years. I had an image of how a 'well' person would cope with the kind of exercise I used to do, and it certainly didn't involve, for example, calf muscles flapping around uselessly while on a cycling machine or, indeed, the mere act of breathing tasting like bleeding. By whose batshit metric was I well?

I think this is interesting in terms of Lurid's point about one's body being treated as something up for public discussion and criticism; is it the case that, once someone decides what wellness means to them and articulates it to a second person, it makes it harder for the person under critique to think about their body? When I was inviting criticism for being overweight (which I had been, by anyone's standards) I could never quite explain that doing 20 man press-ups was more important to me than looking as I was expected to in a way that made sense to the person I was talking to.

Also interested in Pegs' question about strength and selfhood -may return tomorrow, I hope with coherance.
 
 
sorenson
22:12 / 13.11.06
Oh shit i did that to someone the other day - told them they looked well when really they had simply lost weight. bugger - i hate it when something really dumb slips out of my mouth (it happens all too often!). i think it comes from a desire to affirm that something has changed in what superficially seems to be a positive way, but feeling like it is too rude to comment directly on someone's weight. this is a cultural thing - i was once taken aback by some Japanese friends of mine who I hadn't seen for a few years, who commented that i'd got fat (which i had). we are obsessed with the weight of the people around us, as well as ourselves, but we also can't seem to talk about it openly! weird. it's also weird how changes in people's bodies (whether in weight, or pregnancy, or illness) suddenly open up a license to surveillance - i think women get this a lot more than men. for example, at work everybody scrutinises all the eligible aged women for potential pregnancy behaviours, and if anyone refuses a drink or complains of nausea the questions start. i hate it!
 
 
bergkamp clec
01:41 / 05.12.06
As I understand it, the "gender divide" (different recommended daily calorie intakes) is because of the smaller average weights between men and women; simple as. In my experience, recommendations like these are rarely based on anything too scientifically complex.

I have just this month come out of a hospital for anorexics and, although I am a male, I followed exactly the same course as the females. I'm assuming that this is because we were all of very low and similar weights and so our calorie requirements were similar. It was also, probably for practical reasons and to aid "cohesion".
 
 
trantor2nd
15:00 / 05.12.06
Back in my country where obesity is not epidemic, we greet each other often by commenting on apparent changes in body weight. "Hi, you've lost/gained some weight."
Problem is, most women feel insulted if they're said to have gained. Many men seem to ignore comments on their weight. Honesty is converted to flattery.
Popular media may greatly contribute to this obesity/anorexia extremism. Science suggests an ideal range of Body Mass Index and healthy foods. We try to adjust our eating and lifestyle habits to fit into the recommended model.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
13:03 / 18.01.07
Very good thread - also very topical for me as I do research into health psychology, esp the public perception of health risks. What I'd like to hear more about from you fine folk is the different treatment that thin vs fat receive media-wise.

Long story short - the other day I flicked on the tube and there it was. Yet another show about getting some "poor fattie to sort themselves out and slim the feck down!", possibly spurred on by a DELTA/SEAL/SAS/dog-trainer person. I couldn't help thinking - what if these had been really thin people instead - anorexics or bulimics? I speculate that there'd have been an avalanche of complaints to Ofcom and the producers/broadcasters. I cannot for the life of me recall any storm of protests against the fat-fighting shows that grow like fungi on the cable these days.
Just saying, it seems so bloody unfair.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
23:25 / 01.10.07
Of probable interest to this thread:

Fat Hatred Kills

A New Fat-Positive Feminism: Why the Fat-Positive Feminism (Often) Sucks and How to Reinvent It
 
  
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