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Underground > Temple >

The Extraordinary Case Of The Pagan And The Multicultural Prayer Room

  
  

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trouser the trouserian
09:47 / 26.09.06
Of course, the list of people who have claimed that they respect other cultures but would prefer them to stay where they are, but turn out to be just a tiny bit racist about the comparative benefits of those other cultures is surprisingly long... but whether Odinism, generally or severally, is prone to this I wouldn't know.

Being 'folkish' goes a lot further than ancestor-worship. I've met quite a few people on the UK pagan scene who uphold the values of "Faith, Folk & Family" - sometimes this gets embellished as "we should look after our own people first and not immigrants" - or the view that society is inherently "unequal" and people shouldn't expect the State to look after them - coupled with a strong belief in personal self-sufficiency. There is often an emphasis placed on "traditional" values - and some will express ideological alignment with the anti-modern Traditionalism of Rene Guenon and Julius Evola. But most of the people I met would not recognise themselves as racists - although they occasionally said that if they publically expressed some of their views - like being "proud" to be British (and being "proud" of "our" Imperial heritage) they'd be dismissed as "racists". In conversation, I'd sometimes hear people saying "I'm not racist but... The kind of sentiments about "multiculturalism" and "political correctness" that Quantum pulled from the link I posted upthread were not not unusual either.

I used to know one person (who was quite active in the UK doing rune workshops and so forth) who initially, was very explicit about saying that people of a non-Germanic ancestry "shouldn't" study the runes. I had the distinct impression that whilst this person may have initially held this as a firm belief, they came to enjoy the "shock factor" which came from audience reaction - although after a while this palled, and they began to modify their views - first publically, then privately.

article by Kveldulfr Gundarsson:Ancestry and Heritage in the Germanic Tradition
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:49 / 26.09.06
I wonder what these documents were he was leaving in the room?

I've also worked alongside a Muslim who seemed to take a half hour for his afternoon prayer and to slip into the computer suite to do so, but I've also worked alongside more secular skivers too. Any workplace is going to have people trying to take advantage of any benefits that are going, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth in this article.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:03 / 26.09.06
I wonder what these documents were he was leaving in the room?

Judging from the "round robin" email linked above, it was a print out of:
All about Odinism
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:10 / 26.09.06
One Odin's-man's take on the whole ghastly mess that is Folkism etc. here.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:29 / 26.09.06
(Oh, man, I just checked that site. Typical Folkists: scads of raceracerace stuff and the Gods relegated to a couple of sentences each. Nice to know where their priorities lie, eh? Oh, and they've got Baldur down as a fucking Sun God. *headdesk.*)
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:33 / 26.09.06
I'm taking a break to go and do my Liber Resh boss", "OK cool can you get me a sandwich on the way back?"

I have a friend who works in the civil service and his boss cleared a storeroom for him so's he could do his thrice-daily thelema-based practice in relative peace.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:17 / 26.09.06
I must admit, I know a lot more about the mythology than how it relates to magickal practice (largely because I'm far more interested in the former), but I liked that Uppsala article on racism. How does the rest of that site hold up, someone who knows more about this than me?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:07 / 26.09.06
The Uppsala site is solid, AFAIK. It's a great resource.
 
 
rising and revolving
13:39 / 26.09.06
Thanks for the details Mordant. Helps to understand the actual (vs theoretical) folkist positions.

I still think that the group you describe as 'moderate folkist' doesn't sound like a too crazy perspective. It's not like I haven't come across plenty of foo-foo runic tattoos in my time, and while the people wearing them may have european ancestors, their connection to such doesn't generally extend beyond playing Ultima V.

Anyhow, much clearer now. Cheers.
 
 
Quantum
13:44 / 26.09.06
his boss cleared a storeroom for him

See, that's brilliant. I bet nobody said 'I want a storeroom too!' even in the civil service, where people are quite sensitive of their skiving allowance as a rule. Guarantee that if I try it here in a call centre I'll get short shrift though, or if I worked in a cafe or restaurant, shop, garage, building site or pub.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:38 / 26.09.06
I still think that the group you describe as 'moderate folkist' doesn't sound like a too crazy perspective. It's not like I haven't come across plenty of foo-foo runic tattoos in my time, and while the people wearing them may have european ancestors, their connection to such doesn't generally extend beyond playing Ultima V.

I think, however, that an issue here is that these "foo-foo" tattoo-sporters would be discouraged from joining a "folkist" religion not because of their ancestors but because of the colour of their skin. If you can find someone who can actually, reliably trace their lineage back to somebody who definitely worshipped Odin in pre-Christian Europe, I'd be pretty impressed. The Queen's family tree doesn't go that far back.

One could go further, and ask if the moderate folkist position is canted inevitably towards making it easier for the like-us people to pass the tests? I'm thinking literacy tests in the southern states, here...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:36 / 26.09.06
Actually, r'n'r, I've seen people tout their early Ultima- or Tolkein-derived interest in runes as evidence for their innate suitability for Ye Olde Heathen Folkfaith. And get cheery backslappings in response. (Provided their ethnicity is okay, that, is.)

I don't think there's anything reasonable about telling people that because they aren't white, they're Not Allowed to worship certain Gods. I don't think the more moderate Folkists are a very great improvment because they're 'only' saying that you have to be white enough.

The Folkish emphasis isn't on a deep study of the lore or a genuine commitment to forming a meaningful relationship to the Gods and wights. It's not on how well-read you are or whether you've taken the time to learn medieval Icelandic, or how much time you spend communing with the Gods. It's not on anything that matters. It's on what fucking colour you are. It's like these people want to be able to tell the Gods who they can talk to: "Oh Thor, old chap, you simply can't dilly-dally with those sorts of people, they're quite beyond the pale. Come along, do--I've just met the most fascinating church-burning white supremacist and I'm dying to introduce you."
 
 
Unconditional Love
23:13 / 26.09.06
I think i have only met one pagan in my life who i new was racist, my friend took us all to an indian restaurant (he was paying), it was really intresting to watch her be polite for a few hours.

As soon we got back into the car, she started with comments about the food, i have been told and it seems to bare true for me at least that you can tell alot about the nature of someone by there willingness to partake of different cultural foods how much of another culture they are willing to digest and absorb into themselves.

I have to say that i find racists a challenge to be around, they will usually start with a remark about my hairyness and from there infer by emotion or comment that i must somehow be lower down the food chain, another option is my eyes and cheek bones, similar to an indian face. But some people dont recognise my mixed ancestory at all, i generally play along just to see whom they are.

Something i do find worrying in some of my mixed race friends and those of dual nationality is a deisre to become white through the culture they associate with, wether that be magickal culture or popular. Ive been through it myself so perhaps i tend to see it in a different way, but this is what i made of the process, i am trying to adopt white/mainstream gods and culture to feel more empowered.

Its hard to place yourself in a certain ethnic context if you are mixed race, so i actually feel confused about who i am most of the time, i flit from cultural belief to cultural belief trying to find something i can call my own, but i am all mixed up and so are my beliefs.

So i have influences from islam, india, africa, china and europe in my practice, intrestingly enough i see all of those influences in my daily life as well, which makes great reinforcement of those practices themselves.

I think i concentrate on the human element of practice of late because its the one element of continuity that someone of any tradition and an eclectic practice have as common binding. I think thats what i was trying to say in some of my earlier posts. In regards to this i am looking at audio journey and video seminars and reiki, trying to incorporate a technological backdrop into a multicultural practice.

But there still lurks an element in me that wants one true way, easy answers, without any questions. i am this this is me deal with it. Its the attitude that doesnt want to listen and understand, but only be heard and command, no integration just degenration. I tend to blame that on various institutions but in the end its a part of my attitudes.
 
 
Quantum
10:01 / 27.09.06
I've seen people tout their early Ultima- or Tolkein-derived interest in runes as evidence for their innate suitability for Ye Olde Heathen Folkfaith

?!? Hah! My Warhammer FRP wizard 'Donger Dongersson' had a runestaff, I am born to the volk! Luckily I have blonde hair and blue eyes so it'll count.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:15 / 27.09.06
This has been irritating me as well, especially as someone else somewhere else decided to start a thread explaining why the enlightened viking people would never commit a terrorist attack like 9-11. "Have you ever heard of a Asatru terrorist?", he said. "Well, excusing erm well the vikings", I said, "what about the fact most of these Asatrus have a college fund and a nice job in a rich country?"

And I'm not sure what I was saying there, or whether it was right.

This was said earlier but I think we need to look at exactly how someone who is self-identifying as "a pagan", "a heathen" or so on might have come into this, and exactly how deep and urgent their beliefs might be.

Now far be it from me to make assumptions and generalizations, but for everyone I've met IRL, and many of the people I've spoken to on the net, their interest in paganism is a very personal path that has little to do with, say, making their family proud, or supporting any kind of wider social group. It's personal learning, reading oin their own, and most of them scoff at the idea of any kind of organized worship.

It's largely a different story for the jews and other abrahamic followers I've spoken to- for them it's about doing something that while there is the personal element is largely about having a link to their family, their ancestor culture which is alive today and is ongoing and continuous as opposed to some notional group of vague ancestors existing on the other side of a void.

So while I suppose it's all religion of a sort, I wonder if it's even comparable.

So, what does that mean...I think it means that educated middle-class white people who like heavy metal and casually decide to be a "pagan" are not in the same position as someone brought up as a christian, jew, muslim etc. Namely, that they will happily be able to work somewhere without a prayer room without this leading to them falling out with their family, that they can eat somewhere that serves non-halal or non-kosher food without any serious problems

Of course the pagans deserve rights and freedom but still...one wonders if the "pagans" actually devote as much, or the same part, of their life to their religion as someone who is part of a nonwhite minority religious culture/community, and whether they need to, whether they need that strong base of shared culture. I mean, I don't like to use the term "internet religion", but...I had a point here somewhere but it seems to have vanished.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
12:44 / 27.09.06
Legba, I think it varies from person to person within paganism just as it varies within the more mainstream religions. There's certainly, in my experience, a (depressingly?) large number of Anglo-Nordic-pagans-lite, but there are equally well people - and communities of people - who practice in real earnest and let it inform their every act.

I find it most bizarre that some Odinists should be homophobic, as mentioned above; always thought part of the point of Odin and his fanatical hunger for knowledge was his ambiguous role as master of magics both masculine and feminine (as they're presented in the tradition, that is). Can anyone shed more light on how that problem is "resolved" by those who'd put the -ist into Odinist?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:14 / 27.09.06
I believe the official line is pretty much the same as the one on trance possession: "Lalalalala... etc."

It's an interesting question. Although Odin is repeatedly shown as a figure who will veer out beyond the fringes of social acceptability in search of wisdom, I believe that the only direct reference to Odin engaging in transvestite practices is the appears in stanza 23 of the Lokasenna. There are plenty of other hints at Odin being a bit more than the 100% het jock-God that some claim Him to be, but this is the most upfront. Here, Odin is accused by Loki of going about Samsey working magic spells while dressed as a witch. There are feminine, 'unmanly' associations with magic in Icelandic literature, and this is made very plain in Lokasenna: the word translated as witch is vitka in the original, the feminine form as opposed to the masculine vitki, making it clear that not only was Odin working magic but He was doing so in women's clothing. The stanza ends by describing Odin's actions as 'argr,' a rather complex knot of a word including connotations of being the receptive partner in gay sex, but also of outlawry and danger.

But the Lokasenna is a much-disputed text in modern heathen circles. Since the accusations are being made by Loki, they're often rejected as mere slander and lies. The piece as a whole is sometimes dismissed as a later Christian interpolation existing merely to mock and demean the Gods (although I've seen no convincing evidence or argument for this--"That's obviously a Christian interpolation!" is often used as a kind of get-out-of-gaol-free card in these debates).

It's also worth noting that other deities, notably Freyr, seem to have had cults that involved some form of gender-bending.

Historically, the situation is more complex than it at first appears. The Viking-era Scandinavians had a kind of prison-rules attitude to male-on-male sex, which was deeply fucked up but arguably less so than the Christian mores that superseded it. There were strong social prohibitions and pretty terrible consequences to being the receptive partner, but on the other hand there was no actual law against it.

As I understand it, lesbian sexuality was apparently simply not recognised. There are no laws against it, but no celebrated lesbian romances either. It's a great big weird blank in the lore.

Without wishing to exaggerate (since we're still talking about medieval Europe here) sexual attiudes in general were far more liberal under the Heathens than they were after the conversion. It's not unreasonable to speculate that, had medieval Christianity not superseded this more pragmatic way of looking at the world, attitudes would have become more liberal rather than less over time. Be that as it may, the more right-wing element that is drawn to heathenry will move mountains to 'prove' that gay sexualities are incompatible with the worship of the Northern pantheon. Gay and lesbian relationships are described as part of a 'death-culture,' 'anti-family' and 'anti-life.' (Yeah, I'm sure that what the Gods really want from their worshippers is to adopt wholesale the attidudes and language of the Christian right.) Queer-identified heathens frequently face serious ostracism and harrassment.
 
 
*
14:47 / 27.09.06
one wonders if the "pagans" actually devote as much, or the same part, of their life to their religion as someone who is part of a nonwhite minority religious culture/community, and whether they need to, whether they need that strong base of shared culture.

Interesting question. Since I'm starting to discover a pagan community where I live (by pagan community I mean people who worship together, do social things together outside of worship, raise their children in the faith, and study with and from one another), and one that is pretty devoted, I think I would say "as much but not the same part." So far I haven't encountered the social enforcement of pagan mores in the pagan community the way there can be social enforcement of Jewish mores in the Jewish community. Some of these folks go on to lives that don't "look pagan" once they leave circle. Some of these folks go on to lives that look Jewish, in fact, and maybe it's not devoting the same parts of their lives to each that allows them to overlap. But that shouldn't be held to translate into insincerity, if you don't mind.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:43 / 28.09.06
But that shouldn't be held to translate into insincerity, if you don't mind.

Of course not, was not trying to say so, sorry.
 
 
Ticker
15:06 / 28.09.06
one wonders if the "pagans" actually devote as much, or the same part, of their life to their religion as someone who is part of a nonwhite minority religious culture/community, and whether they need to, whether they need that strong base of shared culture.

please don't feel like I'm dogpiling on this rather I offer this as an important piece of missing information from the dialogue.

I know a good number of pagans that have intense taboos regarding food, action, clothing etc. I personally as a pagan am finding that I need these things and the shared culture more. Now while I understand your point about weekend warrior Hot Topic Pagans, please know that some of us do devote as much of our lives to religious activity as other folks.

We volunteer in hospices, believe in and practice the Laws of Hospitality, tend those in our community who are ill and lonely, and abide by the strictures of our Gods.
To be honest we're a pretty young group of religions for all of our ancient heritage noises and we are beginning to form those societal ways of proper and expected conduct.

I'm going to spend three days camping in the woods during some cold ass nights with a tent and a sleeping bag this weekend because I need that shared culture. I'm training in healing arts to help others and tend to the dying because I need that shared culture. I attend lectures, gatherings, private/public ritual with a good amount of strangers because, I like them, need that strong base of shared culture.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:22 / 28.09.06
All good, xk, and I'm sure there's more like you than not. I guess it's just that this is happening in the UK, and, coming from a UK perspective myself, I've met a bunch of the "hot topic pagans" (most likely Alchemy Gothic pagans over here, but same difference) and have been consistently pissed about their habit of a) "slagging off teh sheeple religions" whilst b) demanding all the rights associated with said religions, which more often than not is actually not a serious plea for respect but a nasty attempt to do down non-whites/affirmative action/equal rights etc...you know, goatee beards, tenchcoats, really miserable voices...
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
23:23 / 02.01.07
Sorry to come to this late, but the person who is at the centre of this, Don Holden, is apparently a member of the BNP. At least that's according to Stormfront (Fascist site NSFW), who I suspect would know.

That's probably worth mentioning if this specific issue is brought up again.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/odinist-wins-maximum-award-290440.html
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:04 / 03.01.07
%Imagine my astonishment.% Thanks, Lamentations.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:13 / 03.01.07
PS: Please don't link to sites like Stormfront, we really don't want to show up in their referral logs.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
17:10 / 03.01.07
Ah sorry. I'll break the link if the need arises in the future.
 
  

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