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The Extraordinary Case Of The Pagan And The Multicultural Prayer Room

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:52 / 25.09.06
This story is doing the rounds of various pagan and heathen communities on the net. Briefly:

An Odinist employed by the Royal Mail tries to use the 'multicultural room' at work for his devotions, ends up being accused of attacking the faith of the Muslims who are the primary users of the room, and loses his job. An industrial tribunal finds in his favour.

Article here.

I smell a rat.

I would certainly support the ruling in the sense that this man should clearly not have been dismissed and I think his employers behaved appallingly. I'd also support the right of any devoutly religious person to reasonable access to facilities vital to the proper practice of hir religion, provided that this did not impinge unreasonably on others' rights. I definately support the recognition of reconstructionist faiths as valid spiritual practices. So why ain't I happy?

Well, all kinds of reasons. First off, I don't believe there is a direct, X = Y equivalency between a faith such as Islam and the various reconstructionist faiths. Reconstructionist pagan faiths exist in society in a radically different way to Islam. It should be pretty obvious that followers of Islam face different (and arguably far greater) difficulties in practicing their faith in the context of Western society than do pagans of various stripes.

There's also the fine detail of religious practice which is overlooked completely by the writers of the article.

Heathens don't have a holy book, a sacred text in which the requirements of their faith are laid down. They have a hodge-podge of texts written after the original heathen faiths had been more-or-less wiped out by Christianity. These texts were written by Christians and must be interpreted in the light of historical and archeological evidence, and experiences such as UPG (unusual personal gnosis).

Thing is, a worshipper of Odin does not need a prayer-room in the same way that a Muslim does. Sure, it might be good for a heathen to have a quiet place to go and pray or reflect during the course of hir day, but there's no actual religious, do-this-or-God'll-be-pissed requirement to offer daily prayers or to offer those prayers in a private room. It would be quite proper and indeed more true to ancient heathn practice to sit under an oak tree to pray, or the local War Memorial, or a crossroads.

Moreover, this person identifies not as heathen or Ásatrú, but specifically as an Odinist. This is not a neutral term. To call yourself an Odinist means either that you are a heathen who is specifically dedicated to Odin, or that you subscribe to a particular brand of heathenry--a pretty exclusionary, right wing brand. If someone calls himself an Odinist, it's a fair bet that he's Folkish (thinks that non-Europeans can't or shouldn't worship the Northern pantheon) and probably takes a dim veiw of feminism and LGBT rights. This is not true in every case, of course, but Odinism as a specific form of pagan worship does seem to attract some very nasty elements.

So I'm also squicked by the fact that this guy left 'Odinist' writings in the room for the Muslim users to find. I really hope this was absent-mindedness and not deliberate. There is no reason for a heathen of any stripe to be leaving literature around the place. There's no horrible DOOOOM awaiting the unbeliever in heathen lore, and thus no reason to proselytize. I would not be surprised if the literature included comments that were critical of other religions, including Islam. Not necessarily hatespeech but not something you'd want to find in the room where you go to pray.

Like I say, the man should not have been fired. But I think this issue is a lot more complex than "they've got it so I should get it too." Thoughts?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:35 / 25.09.06
Hmm. One wonders whether the guy would have pushed for the introduction of a prayer room had there not been one. I'm guessing probably not... but you never know.

And I know it was the Odinist Fellowship guy, rather than the fired bloke, who said certain names and signatures, evidently belonging to Muslim employees, but- am I reading a little too much into the "evidently" here? That these LOOK like the names of people who would be likely to be Muslim? Therefore drawing a direct correlation between religion and ethnicity?

It's hard to say without knowing the people involved, really. But I don't think you're the only one who's finding that rat a little whiffy.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:39 / 25.09.06
odinistfellowship The guy was a member of this group, i cant see anything overtly racist or islamophobic about them.

The end result of pagan faiths being recognised under law is a good one in my opinion. What i drew from the article was a guy that saw a multicultural room, he saw it had a koran etc and decided to make that room his as well for his faith, he left literature there, thats no great offence.

A multifaith room should surely be mutifaithed? Having read the article i think the post office was in a dubious position in a brewing political climate where they made a really bad decision based on from what i read nothing at all, but diverse faith based practices sharing one room, that had ostensibly become a one faith room.

The worst thing that has actually been done has been to set rooms that appear to be for muslims only, as this in and of itself creates seperation from the rest of the work force, for that perception to be banished these areas truly need to accomodate multifaith views, they need to be set up with christian, muslim, hindu, shinto, pagan and a broad selection of the religous beliefs in a work place, jedi if need be, surveys need to be done of a work place and places made for all the faiths of that working community, then times need to be allotted, and compromises will have to take place.

Id love to see, a baylonian, muslim, shinto, tibetan buddhist, christian room with a discordian edge and jedi guardians all in post office uniform. I dont think its likely however.

A multifaith room is a great idea but it needs to be multifaith.
 
 
Ticker
13:00 / 25.09.06
I can understand why you have that uncertainity kicking around. It is difficult to say what is equal without being the same action. I'd like to think my requests for time off or breaks would be viewed as valid by my employer without needing to say 'well that person does it so I want to as well.'

It strikes me as a case of too loose a definition. If the room was indeed set aside as multicultural (I'm reminded of Saturn Nod's thread on a mediatation room) then that should have been outlined along with proper use procedures to the entire staff. If indeed the Muslim staff need a segregated room for their daily worship I'm not sure why it would be a problem to set it aside as such.

Again with the paper stuffs it depend on what the official policy of the room's use is. I agree in this case it feels a lot like peeing on a tree rather than "I'll just leave my heavy saga tome here for later".

If the company policy allows personal desk clutter pagans should be allowed to display devotional objects. Problem is what if your pagan devotional object offends someone else? I lean to the side of replace it with another one but that leads down the merry road of some people are never happy.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:11 / 25.09.06
that should have been outlined along with proper use procedures to the entire staff

That would seem to be the logical procedure of setting up a multifaith room, and I'm surprised they appear not to have done so.

Slackula- not casting aspersions on the Odinist Fellowship at all (I know bugger all about them, so it'd be a bit silly were I to do so), just my reading of that one comment from one member.
 
 
Quantum
13:18 / 25.09.06
Well, looking at that Odinist website I notice a few warning signs that might hint at a little racial intolerance-

Odinism is the name we give to the original, indigenous form of heathen religion practised by our forefathers, the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, and by the related Teutonic peoples of the Continent. It is, accordingly, the ancestral, native religion of the English people, and, as such, our very own spiritual heritage.

All those people tend to be pale skinned I note.

Odinists strongly disapprove of the way Christians and Muslims have engaged in missionary work...the Odinist form of paganism is ethnospecific. Indeed, were we to receive a request to administer the Odinist Pledge of Faith to, say, a Japanese or a Nigerian, we would encourage that person to embrace his indigenous form of heathenism, because heathens of all nations believe in being true to oneself and to one's ancestors.

Ethnospecific eh? Hmm...

Anyway, multifaith rooms at work- I'm suspicious of the idea. It's only certain religions that need the specific prayer room (notably Islam of course) so why not have a room for them specifically? You don't find Christians in the prayer room I suspect, since there are churches and we don't usually work on Sunday. Similarly Judaism, Buddhism etc. there's no need for a special room at work.
Which is why I smell the same rat A Heart Wreathed In Flame smells- sounds like the guy did it just because the Muslims were allowed, and it's possible he was less than diplomatic about his practice.
 
 
Quantum
13:20 / 25.09.06
Just re-reading that extract, A JAPANESE!? WTF? Danger, Will Robinson!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:53 / 25.09.06
'Ethnospecific'--yeah, you see a lot of this, it's a big source of strife in the heathen comunity. This veiwpoint, called Folkism, does pretty much what it says on the tin: Folkists believe that people from other ethnicities than Northern European shouldn't worship the Northern pantheon. Personally, I have yet to see this veiw backed up with one scrap of lore or half a decent argument.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
13:59 / 25.09.06
Or a Nigerian!

This is fascinating. I'm interested in both the indignant, ever so slightly anti-Muslim tone of the article itself (skiving?) and the institutionalisation of space for prayers of any kind under the term 'Multicultural Room.' Here most universities have Muslim prayer rooms, along the lines of breast-feeding lounges, women's rooms, queer rooms, etc. Some universities also have separate toilets for Muslims. That's usually all good. But they aren't all shoved in together in the 'Multicultural Room', and there would be hell to pay if they were.

I reckon there's quite a possibility that this Odinist was setting himself up to prove the point.
 
 
Ticker
14:01 / 25.09.06
Not to get all thread rotty but isn't that sort of blown away by the Northern Gods showing up at other people's rites?


..and if you were say an Americanese of mongrel decent wouldn't you have claim to several pantheons under this POV?
 
 
Quantum
14:04 / 25.09.06
Volkism scares me. On the multifaith room thing, I'm trying to think of religions that need a dedicated space set aside other than Islam and I'm drawing a blank. I can see that people should be allowed to go practice at necessary times ("I'm taking a break to go and do my Liber Resh boss", "OK cool can you get me a sandwich on the way back?") but I can't see why you'd need a special room for many religions, especially reconstructed paganism. Maybe a special tree, persuade the PO to have an Ash tree at every depot.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:10 / 25.09.06
persuade the PO to have an Ash tree at every depot

Or even just at your own, were you an Odinist. I can't see that stretching the budget too far.

From my (tiny) knowledge of Islam, it has very specific and exacting rules about prayer- so I can understand the need for a room or space, even if not an exclusively Islamic one.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:12 / 25.09.06
The problem with segregation is it sets up a dynamic of whats been prevalent in the case, if youve got a room, i want mine too, why should you have privelige over me and my beliefs. Its horrible, it creates instant conflict.

You will end up with groups of caucasian people feeling undercut (churches dont include all caucasian people), if something is multi it has to include all faiths and all people. A multicultural room has to be that, you would probably end up needing mutifaithless rooms as well, who will demand eventually the same time to be faithless in.

Reconstructionist faiths have to have as much right as the abrahamic faiths and as equivalent areas of worship to numbers, i think the problem is state sponsored religions, churches need to be self supporting, churches typify the way western spirituality is pictured, ie if the state sanctions this faith why shouldnt it sponsor mine? Perhaps no one would be asking for space if religion were defined as a purely self supporting endeavour.
 
 
Quantum
14:19 / 25.09.06
if you've got a room, i want mine too,

But why? If I don't need a room, I'm not missing out on some privelege by you having one for your religious practice. Can you think of any other religion that has the exacting demands for regular prayer?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:21 / 25.09.06
Slackula- I don't think anyone, even the Muslims at the Post Office, is actually arguing for segregation. Ostensibly their argument was that the multifaith space had been abused.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:29 / 25.09.06
I am thinking the idea should be extended to yoga and tai chi and other forms of spiritual exercise.

My hall is getting bigger with philosophers in one corner, multi faith shrines all over the place, belly dancers, tai chi players, kundalini yoga and trance dancers, and multi faith people doing perhaps one hours work a week.

While the caffeteria contains food from all nations prepared in a variety of sacred manners.

The work place also offers an assortment of work based therapies and divinations for those all important premotions and working relationship issues.

While curse workers try to sell you a better way to get that promotion.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:30 / 25.09.06
Quants
Cached discussion thread from Pagan Networks here

has long letter from the director of the Odinist Fellowship posted concerning this case.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:30 / 25.09.06
Not to get all thread rotty but isn't that sort of blown away by the Northern Gods showing up at other people's rites?

xk: I believe that the official Folkist line on possession by Heathen Gods in general, and possession in the context of other peoples' faiths in particular, is "Lalalalala, I can't heeeeeeaaaaar yoooooouuuu!"
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:34 / 25.09.06
I know some people who think exactly along those lines quantum, ifs he getting that why aint i getting mine, i used to work as a postal cadet alongtime ago. The mentality that says there getting something more than me, why are they getting more. Other people will just look at it as skiving and they want that time to.

In my experience of that working enviornment it was much like a school with the breaks acting as playtime, and those guys could be seen to be getting more play time or time off.

I am not saying thats the case, but i understand the perception.
 
 
rising and revolving
15:46 / 25.09.06
Personally, I have yet to see this veiw backed up with one scrap of lore or half a decent argument.

I'm going to tread carefully here, as I don't have an especially strong viewpoint, only some leanings... I'm interested in discussing this, though - if only to get my own thoughts clear.

However, if they're making the argument that their faith includes elements of ancestor worship, and that this is the religion of their forefathers ... well, that in itself doesn't seem unreasonable.

It also makes other peoples use of the same faith seem very much like cultural appropriation. Now I know we walk a strongly grey-shaded line when it comes to appropriation. I'm just not sure why it instantly becomes edged into racism by necessity here.

Would they accept "a japanese" if the person could show they had Angles in their tree? If not, they're on shaky ground, if so ... I'm not quite seeing this as a (necessarily) extremist position. A common pooling place for people with extremist positions, quite possibly (you can see how this sort of stance would attract them) - just not innately so. And lets face it, religions in general often attract extremist and unpleasant elements.

Looking to better understand the positions here, primarily.
 
 
Quantum
16:03 / 25.09.06
Thanks Trouser, I notice the rhetoric of Ralph Harrison's statement doesn't allay my fears;
The man was obviously threatening the cosy arrangement between management, unions and Muslim leaders, that prevailed at the Mail Centre – and so he had to be stopped!
Conspiracee!

a clique of managers, all of them white British, who are dogmatically committed to pursuing their own perverse programme of “multicultural diversity”... In a previous age, such hypocritical paragons of political correctitude, would have made exemplary Puritan witch-finders, or agents of the Holy Inquisition, ferretting out heretics who had eaten meat in Lent, or crossed themselves the wrong way round, and casting them on to the burning pyre. The self-styled “politically correct”, with their multi-faith agenda, are truly the witch-finders general of the modern age.

Riiiiight.
 
 
Quantum
16:05 / 25.09.06
I wish I could change my name to Quantum: hypocritical paragons of political correctitude. That would rool.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:14 / 25.09.06
What gets me about that is the idea that somehow there are a norse people in the uk, Its a point brought up by the article trouser linked to, the uk is a mixed race, mixed cultural, mixed gene nation, which involves genetic structure from all over the world, someone may identify as an odinist, a celt, a buddhist, a christian but that doesnt make that identification a fact based on biological structure, it makes it a chosen or conditioned identity reinforced by a set of signifiers that a person engages with, ritual etc

What should come first and foremost are the faith rights of human beings as a whole, the language from the site that defines people by nationality doesnt actually help, its another instance of identity that can be used to create insular community at the expense of wider global interaction, and recognition of the basic humanity we all seem to share in common. (except of course for you telepathic aliens hidden away ready to invade)

The problem then becomes one of people appropriating identity in relation to conditioned identity and the integration of solid identity forms fixed by word structures into an environment where everybody is shagging everybody else all of the time in a variety of different manners.
 
 
rising and revolving
16:20 / 25.09.06
Slackula, I don't know if this discussion needs to go headshopwards, but that was almost entirely unintelligable to me. Especially the end-y bit.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:25 / 25.09.06
Have to say, I'm with Quantum here. The ironic Welcome to the joys of diversity in Multicultural Britain! seems a little too Littlejohn, if that's not too much alliteration. It doesn't seem so much to be an attack on this particular case, as a "hah! multiculturalism! Told you it'd lead to MADNESS!!!" kind of thing.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
16:25 / 25.09.06
In a previous age, such hypocritical paragons of political correctitude, would have made exemplary Puritan witch-finders, or agents of the Holy Inquisition, ferretting out heretics who had eaten meat in Lent, or crossed themselves the wrong way round, and casting them on to the burning pyre. The self-styled “politically correct”, with their multi-faith agenda, are truly the witch-finders general of the modern age.

Hahahahahaa! Jeepers. What do they teach them in schools these days eh?

Wich is as much as to say - if that's what they do with history, I think it's even more obvious that their take on lore etc. might be a bit dubious.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:46 / 25.09.06
It would perhaps be nice to see a place where convergence could take place, i can see where temple, headshop and lab mix.

I think in that last bit i am trying to push the point that identity, conditioned or otherwise is perhaps a bad measurement against genetic structure, that there are only the biological rules of procreation and our adaptations in comparison to the multi faceted nature of identity which can be hijacked so to speak cultural appropriation/identity theft, deconditioning etc That perhaps identity is a negative starting place to argue for greater rights from, that imo the best position to argue for rights from is from being human and according rights to all manner of humanity without identity bias in one direction or another.

Perhaps it is headshoppy, but id also love to hear from somebody with a better knowledge of biology than me, and also people with a better knowledge of the identity process and its effects and then apply that to faith based thinking and then see the response from people of faith, and the part of myself that is faith orientated.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:00 / 25.09.06
I guess i am asking a simple question what is more inherent an identification as human and the attendent rights of being human or the cultural identity i have been conditioned with or chosen. My answer is being human, everything else is secondary and to some extent optional, but then you have to ask what does it mean to be human? and are those secondary effects really optional if they are a result of (self)conditioning and/or imprinting?
 
 
rising and revolving
17:28 / 25.09.06
I guess i am asking a simple question what is more inherent an identification as human and the attendent rights of being human or the cultural identity i have been conditioned with or chosen.

Sure. But what does that have to do with ancestor worship?
 
 
Quantum
17:38 / 25.09.06
identity, conditioned or otherwise is perhaps a bad measurement against genetic structure

What? I too am a bit lost, not quite sure what you're getting at.
 
 
Ticker
18:35 / 25.09.06
identity, conditioned or otherwise is perhaps a bad measurement against genetic structure


I read this as meaning:

societal identity cannot be derived from genetic structure alone.

How am I doin'?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:32 / 25.09.06
I'd probably, to tie it into ancestor worship, suggest that Sin is saying that our genes are so diluted by cross- and inter-breeding that to point to a white man living in Britain and saying "you are allowed to practise Odin worship on account of your ancestors" makes very little sense, as in almost all cases it would be impossible to work out whether any significant portion of that person's ancestors ever worshipped Odin. As such, to say that one should be loyal to the heathenism of one's ancestors makes very little sense.

So, it becomes a best-fit. Presumably what they mean if that if you are white and resident in Europe (Northern Europe?), they'll let you practise, and if you aren't then they won't. But you might have been in Northern Europe for only a few generations - possibly not much longer than somebody whose grandparents had arrived from Nigeria, in fact. Would a Black British person who lived in Northern Europe be accepted?

The thinking behind this is interesting - it seems to suggest that there is a single "heathenism", which is then split up notionally culturally but sort of geographico-culturally - Odinic Rite, apparently, will take "Vinlanders", but whether, again, that's only white Vinlanders or only blond Vinlanders or only Vinlanders who can prove Viking descent (good luck), I know not, and it's the kind of thing that they probably wouldn't put on an application form. So, a Japanese person performing Japanese heathenism is doing the same thing as a Northern European person worshipping Odin.

Of course, the list of people who have claimed that they respect other cultures but would prefer them to stay where they are, but turn out to be just a tiny bit racist about the comparative benefits of those other cultures is surprisingly long... but whether Odinism, generally or severally, is prone to this I wouldn't know.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:07 / 25.09.06
However, if they're making the argument that their faith includes elements of ancestor worship, and that this is the religion of their forefathers ... well, that in itself doesn't seem unreasonable.

Those claims are not entirely unreasonable, no, and if that was as far as it went then there wouldn't be an enormous problem. But what you're describing there isn't Folkism. There's a kind of spectrum in modern heathen thought, with Universalists on one end, Folkists on the other, and Tribalists in the middle.

Universalists will sign up pretty much anyone. Tribalists will sign up pretty much anyone if ze feels a profound and genuine calling to the Northern pantheon and is prepared to do a metric fuckton of homework: not just studying the legends relating to the Gods but informing hirself of the cultural context in which They were originally worshipped, and usually making significant attempts to reflect elements of that culture in hir own lifestyle. Tribalists (theoretically anyway) don't give a moneky's if you're from Norway or Nigeria so long as you can name Egil Skallagrimsson's nursemaid, recite at least 150 of Odin's bynames, and tell the class when Lindisfarne Monastery got sacked.

Folkists are a spectrum all of their own. The most extreme cases are essentially white supremacists so fuck 'em. Then you get the people who aren't quite that bad but are still fixated on race; they'll accept only people who are of 'pure' Northern European extraction (yeah, good luck with that). By 'pure,' I mean that having an Italian or Greek grandparent will sometimes disqualify you. These people will make much of the fact that other nations have what they call 'folk-faiths' including ancestor worship, generally gamely trying to insist that these faiths would reject Northern Europeans. Hilariously, they usually include Vodoun in this list of supposedly ethnospecific faiths, which must come as something of a surprise to Maman Brigitte. Then there's the more moderate Folkist, who will 'only' insist that you have an identifiably Northern European ancestor knocking around somewhere.

I'm not terribly familiar with this particular group, so I can't tell how Northern European one would have to be to play in their treehouse.

It also makes other peoples use of the same faith seem very much like cultural appropriation. Now I know we walk a strongly grey-shaded line when it comes to appropriation. I'm just not sure why it instantly becomes edged into racism by necessity here.

Uhnm. I think this is debatable, frankly. For one thing, Political Correctness Gone Maaaaaaaad notwithstanding, people of recognisably Northern European extraction are not a freaking minority in the UK or, uh, Vinland. The social, cultural and political structures surrounding (say) Hinduism and reconstructionist big-H Heathenry are totally different, and I don't think one either can or should discount that.

For another, the people 'appropriating' Odin and His drinking buddies are largely part of the same culture as the modern decendents of the notional elder kin. They're British or American. They've got dibs. I can't really think of the Heathen equivalent of the wealthy white teenager with a sequined Hindu God ze can't even name on hir tee-shirt or a kanji tattoo on hir ankle. When wealthy Haitian teens start getting runic tattoos because that alphabet is like, sooo ethnic and spiritual, no, I can't read it but the guy in the tattoo parlour said it meant my boyfriend's name, yah? then we'll talk.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:51 / 25.09.06
I have to say who ever had hold of my head earlier this evening is gone, i am left with chris reas lady in red going round and round in my head and stuffing my face with bananas and grapes, come back, please and take the nasty singer away.

Pretty much the point that haus made, with an emphasis on the idea that cultural is perhaps not the best basis for belonging, that perhaps common humanity is, and that culture tends to obfuscate common human endeavours.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:41 / 26.09.06
I have to confess also that I'm probably picking up on certain signals in that website that might not be obvious, kind of veiled messages that you might not suss out if you're unaware of the rather specialised way that language is employed by some of these groups.

For instance, the Odinist Fellowship website linked to above places a great deal of emphasis on the life-affirming and life-sustaining elements of heathen worship. They also refer to their support for the family. Superficially all this sounds terribly nice; but when you see a heathen organisation talking this way without a clear and overt statement that they oppose homophobia and similar forms of prejudice, you are almost certainly looking at a group that is prejudiced against LGBT people (and is probably anti-feminist to boot).
 
  

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