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Bioshock

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:07 / 28.08.07

ziparrow- I think you and I may never see eye to eye on games. Which is cool, but also a shame.

You use F.E.A.R. as an example of how NOT to do things- I loved F.E.A.R., and the thing I loved most about it was the gradual reveals, the way the story built up like you'd already missed it and were just catching up on events as you spent your time shooting people in the face. The way you only ever really knew what the deal with Alma was right before you faced her, and how that made the last level or so seem all the more important. I LIKED being slowly told a story while I was having my gun'n'run fun.

That may be just me, I guess, but MOAR games like that and I'll be a happy stoat.

Happy Dave Has Left

15:10 / 28.08.07

Stoatie, seconded. It only works IMHO, in games where there's a frenetic component too - a fight for survival.

I've been replaying Deus Ex - Invisible War on the xBox, and it's boring the tits off me, mostly due to the load times, but also because it's just kind of dull wandering around.

The mixture of 'gradual reveal', FPS and the survival horror aspects of Bioshock are what makes it compelling for me.

20:29 / 28.08.07

It's worth pointing out that all these apparent gaps in meaning/exposition are retrospectively filled in later in the game in quite a striking way.

20:33 / 28.08.07

I just want to clarify. I don't think it's a bad game - far from it - but it's not the game it could have been nor, given its parentage, should have been. Not for a lot of the reasons that ziparrow mentions, either - I'm not convinced that all of those are valid complaints (and dude, I'll have no complaints about lack of innovation in 360 games if you've not played Space Giraffe. SPACE GIRAFFE). The lack of real consequence in the development of your character robs it of a massively important element of connection - there's an RPG element that belongs in games with this kind of structure, this kind of approach to FPS gameplay, and it's almost entirely missing.

Take hacking, for example. I keep thinking that I should be able to spend some equivalent of experience points on my hacking skills that make it easier, and that by doing so I'll be preventing myself from spending those points on a different skill. And that's there to a very minor extent, but the ability to swap your skills around whenever you want... that's over-empowerment. A weird thing to come up against, because I don't think I've ever experienced it in a game before, not like this. I feel like a god, and not in a good way - rather, in a cheaty, god-mode way.

I don't think that's helped by how easy the game is, either. Playing it on Normal and it's a walk in the park. My wallet's full almost constantly, because I don't need to spend any of the money on anything - there are more than enough item drops to carry you through. Literally, more than enough - I'm now at the point where I can't pick up any more ammo or health packs/Eve hypos.

But maybe if I'd been forced to limit myself to a certain set of skills and abilities... maybe then it would have balanced itself out.

I just feel like it was about the perfect opportunity for something amazing, and what we got instead was something very good. Odd that this should be something to be disappointed about, I know.

20:43 / 28.08.07

I do agree that like quite a lot of recent 360 games I've played, 'normal' is too easy and 'hard' is too hard.

I just love stuff like... I haven't done this, but apparently you can hack a security bot, plant a proximity mine on it, and then wait for the bot to fly near an enemy and blow itself up. And the telekinesis plasmid lets you do all kinds of things that I never even noticed on my first play.

The Big Daddies, too, are like nothing else I've seen in games.

Happy Dave Has Left

20:47 / 28.08.07

I'm intrigued by the much-hyped Big Daddy/Little Sister symbiosis, although the various review touting it as an 'AI ecology' seem a little off the mark.

When I eventually get the cash together to get both a 360, and this game, I'm really going to take my time with it, and play with the environment. Really looking forward to it.

22:29 / 28.08.07

Stoats, I don't think it's a goddawful game or bad in any way. Very far from it (F.E.A.R. neither -- FPS bullet time with proper sound and bullet-blood-body effects are still, unlike in movies, amazingly cool and fun*). It's just much ado around for something a bit disappointing really (sometimes a little tweak feels like it's everything and that it changes everything, but sometimes it feels like just a tweak and new wallpaper -- not bad and actually end up being something new, it's just...).

* and there were the "walking in a sea blood" type of moments in F.E.A.R. that would gradually reveal things that were immensily well told. But they would be almost awkward intervals of sudden bursts of disruptive vignette-cutscene-like information amidst endless "silence" and repetitive meaningless shoot-outs that pretended to be meat while feeling like silent dead vacuum -- yes, it's sort of fun, but also sorta dead space; "just throw some shooters in there so it won't finish so early or else it'll look like there's nothing there at all". So they don't feel like proper encounters or well-designed thread of events -- the baby stroller woman you kill at the beginning of Bioshock should at least be somewhat of a moment that fucks the player up, "I just... I just... what did I...?", and not just feel like an "action" version of you opening a door and going through it)

(and again, I'm not complaining that it's a matter of being told everything or go at it fast or if it's all explained afterwards [it's not even necessarily a matter of plot or story]. I said the exact opposite of that)

But NedB's description of what he found that he can do... rearrange, find new creative and improvised uses of such weapons and items in different contexts. That sort of stuff really is high above avearage in games -- specially FPS.

But I should check it out properly (at least for the action and plasmids bits) -- and check out the Space Giraffe thread.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

07:21 / 29.08.07

Thinking of tricks one can play with the Plasmids, has anyone found out yet if it's possible to use Hypnotise Big Daddy to turn them on each other? I haven't been able to do it yet, but that's a fight I'd love to see.

12:12 / 30.08.07

Later in the game I'd hypnotise a big daddy and have it follow me to another one, attack big daddy B and my big daddy would leap in and start attacking. They would then proceed to beat each other up.

First time I did it though I waited too long before getting them to fight so the hypnosis wore off too soon and they both turned on me. Whoops.

12:53 / 30.08.07

I'm not that impressed with it at all, I dont think it's the revolution I've heard all these reviewers go on about. Completed it twice, harvesed all the little sisters first time and rescued them all the second, one guy reviewed it (think it was on IGN) and said that he had 5 moments where he went 'wow', the only 'wow' moment I had was when I realised that that guy must be easy to please. I wanted more stats, looks like it's been dumbed down the the console market. Dont get me wrong, I enjoyed playing it, just wasnt as good as I thought it would be. I imagined there'd at least be a level where water would be flowing in full force and you'd have to run for your life to escape it. Nope. Maybe I just rushed it, I didn't think much of rapture and wanted out, but saying that I brought the map up on every level and made sure all the gray bits went white, and listerned to all the recording I found, but no ones story really interested me. The only thing that really stands out for me thinking about the game now is (SPOILER) the way fontaine looked like one of the statues, like a god. Sort of summed it all up for me that. (END SPOILER) It's basically System Shock 2 underwater and not as well executed, I think System Shock 2 had a slower pace, I WANTED to take my time and explore, and the atmosphere was better.

13:26 / 30.08.07

That's really an individual preference, akira. A lot of people seem to share the "it's too dumbed down" opinion. I really enjoyed ss2 and deus ex, but I don't think bioshock looses anything by being less complicated than those. If anything I'd consider it more streamlined. I do agree with the exploration to an extent; not that it's any more linear or closed than system shock 2 was either really, but I was disappointed that there seemed to be a lot of the city you never get to see.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:24 / 30.08.07

I just finished it. Yeah, it's not particularly free-roaming, but personally I think this is more than made up for by the effective way it tells its story. And it's a great story. Even though, as is always the case, it all just ends up with

SPOILER

a big boss battle

END SPOILER

the cutscene topped it all off really nicely. I read a review saying finishing it felt like getting to the end of a great novel; I'd kind of agree with that.

It hasn't revolutionised anything, sure. But I think it's excelled at pretty much everything games of its type are made of.

The sad thing is, I promised the guy who gave me the promo he could have it back when I'd finished it so he could give it to someone else. Hmm. Think I'll be buying a copy anyway.

I think it's all down to how absorbed you get in the setting- I was totally sucked in. Hephaestus was the only level where I felt I was playing a generic shooter, but it soon dragged me back in again after that.

Apparently Fort Frolic was designed by the same guy who did the Cradle level on Thief: Deadly Shadows (a level I have yet to play, but which is fairly legendary, so I'm told).

My favourite part?

SPOILER

Fort Frolic, when Cohen sends all the Splicers after you to musical accompaniment. Watching bodies flying through the air to the music was almost Peckinpah-esque, and the only moment I really wished for bullet time.

END SPOILER

Yeah, I liked it a lot. Shame some of you didn't, really, because I had a hell of a lot of fun. Different strokes, I guess. Personally, so far this year it's up there with S.T.A.L.K.E.R. as my best of 2007.

15:37 / 30.08.07

SPOILER

Fort Frolic, when Cohen sends all the Splicers after you to musical accompaniment. Watching bodies flying through the air to the music was almost Peckinpah-esque, and the only moment I really wished for bullet time.

I imagined that in bullet time as you described it lol, they should have hired you.

Jawsus-son Starship

17:29 / 30.08.07

Does anyone know whether it's better to save the little sisters or not? Ive mainly been basing it on how I felt after each big daddy battle - if it was tough then I tend to kill the little sister, if it was easy then I save her. So far I've saved one little sister.

17:33 / 30.08.07

Harvesting them gets you more Adam to spend on the upgrades that you can see in Gatherers' Gardens. Saving them grants you access to upgrades that are, as far as I can tell, otherwise unavailable.

19:01 / 30.08.07

I've heard if you kill any of them you can't get the rarer upgrades later on.

There's no turning back now Jawsus... you can't unfire a gun.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

20:03 / 30.08.07

I got so immersed in the whole thing that I couldn't actually bring myself to kill any of them... each time I was like "next time I'll do it..." ... eventually I saved a game right after killing a Big Daddy just so I could kill one, see the animation and then turn back time.

I'm such a wuss.

20:05 / 30.08.07

SPOILER!?

Anyone know where or how to get the camuflauge plasmid?

20:11 / 30.08.07

CONTINUED SPOILER

Actualy it's a tonic isn't it, active all the time. Apparently if you stand still you turn invisible, floaty turrent guns dont see you and fly by..

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

20:29 / 30.08.07

Saving them grants you access to upgrades that are, as far as I can tell, otherwise unavailable.

You'll also get gifts from Tenenbaum for every few you save.

20:37 / 30.08.07

You can skip this post, Stoatie.

I just think, really, Jawsus needs to stop trying to wash those stains off and embrace our nature. As should we all.

Jawsus-son Starship

11:20 / 31.08.07

I've never put any thought into the people I've killed in videogames, but I actually feel gult about killing those little sisters. No matter what Atlas says, they're to cute, to innocent, with talk of angels and Mr Bubbles. I feel bad. I'm a bad person.

But if those gosh darn Rosies weren't such a nightmare to kill, maybe more little sisters would live.

Spoliers:

With regards to the camo tonic, you get it by researching the houdini splicers

/End of.

15:50 / 31.08.07

"I think the worst part is that I can live with it... these actions I have taken. These few days in this place. Away from the world. Away from rules. From law. They've shown me a lot of things. An entire ocean reflects the monster back at me. Perhaps there's a tonic for the terrible urges. Today I set a man aflame with my hand. There must be a tonic. One more little sister..."

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

18:41 / 31.08.07

It's pretty cool that Bioshock even RAISES those questions, really... it may not deal with them in any particular depth, but other than "is it right or wrong to kill prostitutes in Vice City", there aren't many games that you could even have this conversation about.

As I say, I couldn't kill the Sisters. And even killing the Big Daddies seemed more like a necessary evil than something to be proud of. As I say, I got VERY immersed in this one.

12:00 / 01.09.07

BIG SPOILERS!!!

That girl that works in the strip club, the one you see as a ghost and dead in that room on the bed with money under it, 'Ryan's number one girl', I think that she is your mum in the game and Ryan is your dad, (it's possible that it could be Fontaine, but I'm sure there are other clues I've missed that will clarify one way or the other) I think she sleeps with Fontaine and Ryan obviously kills her with the lead pipe you see, which is why, ultimatly, that Ryan wants you to kill him with the golf club, he loved her and never forgave himself for it. She gets pregnant and thinks that she had an abortion right? Not in Rapture, who's gonna do that when theres crazy scientists around? So that where I reacon you come from.

Is this supposed to be perfectly clear in the game or has my over acctive imagination just picked up on it and thinks it knows something noone else does?

END SPOILERS

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:55 / 01.09.07

SPOILERS

Yes, I certainly assumed she was the mother... hmm, hadn't thought about the lead pipe/golf club thing. DAMN, I have to play this again.

END SPOILERS

See what I mean about Rapture's backstory being fucking great?

Just read an interview, in the new PC Gamer, with Ken Levine. Apparently the Little Sisters were originally going to be insects. That SO wouldn't have worked. "It didn't work. It didn't work remotely. The moral choice aspect wasn't there at all... When we had the little sister in place, we could build a relationship out of that protector/protected gameplay role where you could see them interacting, see that protective relationship in a much clearer way as it harks towards a real-world relationship in a way which you can't with a giant guy in a suit and little bug".

The story was wonderful, and wonderfully told, and the Big Daddies and Little Sisters were that extra bit of magic dust that made me care about it.

Seriously, the Big Daddies ARE my favourite monsters in any game. I really didn't enjoy killing them, other than the satisfaction of a dirty job done well.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

16:49 / 01.09.07

rising and revolving- The shit will hit the fan, and in a major way - I guarentees it. Although the sci-fi setting will help to dismantle the tension a little.

It's been out a week now. I've been off work (mostly playing Bioshock), so I've missed the news, but... has the shit hit the fan?

17:09 / 01.09.07

I haven't heard anything. But it usually takes quite a while, no?
(and at times, a tragedy so the vultures start taking advantage to bump themselves up, and then start to keep a sharp eye -- the Virgina Tech shooting might have calmed that sort of thing since the creep who burned himself started making accusations, like, 5 minutes after it happened making the most absurd claims to what the unknown guy played etc [not only false, but quickly proven false])

I remember the first GTA took around a year for people to make a tiny fuzz (and me wee 11 year old self happy and proud to have it before hitting the fan). GTA3 took about that long, no? I remember it was mostly San Andreas, lots of time after being released, because of the Hot Coffee thing (I think Hillary was in it, wanting a little spotlight by going on the wagon of folks hunting down obscenity after the FCC's Jackson-booby thing).

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:37 / 01.09.07

the Virgina Tech shooting might have calmed that sort of thing since the creep who burned himself started making accusations, like, 5 minutes after it happened making the most absurd claims to what the unknown guy played etc

Jack Thompson was the guy flinging the accusations, Cho Seung-Hui the "unknown guy". I believe Counter-Strike was the game.

17:52 / 01.09.07

"Unknown guy" because they barely knew at the time who was it and Thompson was already making the accusations at Fox News as if he knew the entire background.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

18:30 / 01.09.07

Ah, right. I think we can agree that Thompson's basically a fuckhead, though.

20:32 / 01.09.07

I think Thompson's mother could agree on that.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

02:53 / 07.09.07

I have been playing this for a couple of days and man, it is a lot of fun.

Many of the negatives mentioned in the thread are valid, and I agree, however I think it is a great game. It isn't everything I hoped it would be, it is far simpler then SS2 and far easier, but there is just something about it that I really dig. I think this review is about the best one out there (bad language, might not be safe for work).

Jawsus-son Starship

13:13 / 07.09.07

Soooo, that was a massive anticlimax. All the goodwill that this inspired ended with the shittist final baddy boss fight ever. It was so easy, it was so repetitive, it was so pointless. It makes me feel sad.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

13:42 / 07.09.07

I wish people would stop saying that- I was disappointed it just ended in a boss fight (I hate those anyway), but fuck, it took me AGES to kill that motherfucker!

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