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Gods of Magic

  
  

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Quantum
17:33 / 21.09.06
I am one with Atum when he still floated alone in Nun, the waters of chaos, before any of his strength had gone into creating the cosmos. I am Atum at his most inexhaustible - the potence and potential of all that is to be. This is my magic protection and it's older and greater than all the gods together!
(Egyptian Book of the Dead)

Gods of magic. Tell me everything you know, and let's put it all here, please cite sources if you can and no RPG, fantasy fiction, comic or cinematic sources please, neither Gandalf nor Shazam is a god of magic.

Here's some links on;
Heka and Egyptian magic in general,
Isis,
Thoth (and a dodgy account of His Emerald Tablets),
Hermes Trismegistus and His Emerald Tablet... more to follow.
 
 
Ticker
18:46 / 21.09.06
Well problem is all the Gods I can think of have areas of magical expertise and are considered Deities of Magic, but specific forms not the metalevel I think you're after....

Do you want me to list 'em and Their areas?
(hehehehe 'areas')
 
 
Quantum
18:52 / 21.09.06
Bring their aspects, leave your smut at the door naughty xk. Areas indeed.
 
 
Ticker
19:57 / 21.09.06
heh.

some of my favs:

Manannan mac Lir
Manannan has a rep for being somewhat of a trickster which is not surprising from a sea god.

Cerridwen
The Bent White One is most likely associated with the moon as well.

Gwydion
He's another troublemaker with style.

Also I can't press reading the source material enough.
The Mabinogi
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
20:20 / 21.09.06
ODIN

The God.

God of wisdom, war, battle, death. magic, poetry, prophecy, victory, and the hunt.

What can't this guy do?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:58 / 21.09.06
Also God of song, seduction and Fucking You Up Bigtime If You're Not Careful And Possibly Even If You Are.
 
 
ghadis
21:08 / 21.09.06
Cheers for starting the thread Quantum.

Some more stuff on Heka...

I am he who caused the Ennead to live, I am 'If-he-wishes-he-does' The father of the gods...All things were of me before you came into being. You gods. You came afterwards, for i am Heka
(Coffin Text 261)

Heka is not really seen as a 'God of Magic' but more like the personification of magic as creative energy or power. Just as Maat is a deification of cosmic Harmony and justice. So looking at the above quote, Heka is not only seen as the father of the gods but father of all things that manifest. He can be seen as the divine creative force that is inherent in all things and as such he is the go between, and the act of going between, the spiritual and the physical. The idea and the doing. The creative act.

It's interesting to look at where and with whom Heka appears in Ancient Egyptian literature. I'm particualy interested in the New Kingdom books that fall under the collective group called the Amduat (Books of what is in the Duat) at the moment. The Duat is commonly translated as Otherworld, Underworld, Shadow-world etc and tend to describe the Suns (or kings or magicians) journey through the 12 hours of the night.

In the 'Book of the Hidden Chamber',the most famous and first to be rediscovered of these texts and as a result commonly known as the Amduat itself, Heka is one of Ra's travelling companions on his journey...



Heka, 2nd standing from front, is joined by Sia, stood behind him. Sia is the deification of perception. Also along for the ride is Hu (divine speech or utterance). These three are often found hanging out together, they could be seen as a trinity. Creative power, Perception and Divine Speech.

In The Book of Gates the Sun God does away with the rest of the crew and relies of Heka and Sia for the job.

Getting late and i've got stuff to do but i'll try and post some more stuff soon. In the meantime, any thoughts?
 
 
EmberLeo
21:35 / 21.09.06
All gods have the ability of magic in Their areas of influence, so I'm only listing those for whom the influence is on a magical practice at the human end.

Freya and Gullveig, and to a slightly lesser degree Freyr are known for Seidh, which, as far as we can tell, is somewhat shamanistic in practice. Heide, if one considers Her a distinct goddess (which I do) gets more practical hearthcraft magic. Odin is indeed a god of magic, but His expertise is in Galdr (encantation), and the Runes, both of which connect back to the concept of Language as magical. It's said He and Freya traded lessons, so now They're both quite accomplished in Seidh and Galdr forms. There's a whole list of what the different forms can do, and the overlap is tremendous - it's more a difference in method than anything else.

I'm not as sure of my knowledge in this are, but I believe among the Orixa Oya is known for Her magic. I can't remember the name of the Orixa who is the patron of the shell divination... Among the Lwa, Ayizan and Loko are the keepers of the magical traditions.

I don't know much about Her, but Hekate immediately comes to mind from what I know of Greek Tragedies like Medea, at least. Apollo gets Divination of course.

--Ember--
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
23:01 / 21.09.06
Aye, Hecate for sure. She's done some crazy things to the mortals. Mostly associated with "witchcraft" or sorcery, as seen in Medea. So I think that's right on queue.

Also the Orisha god Orunmila who is associated with prophecy.
 
 
grant
01:38 / 22.09.06
I can't remember the name of the Orixa who is the patron of the shell divination...

I apologize in advance if this causes any self-kicking, but in Lucumi, it's Ifa. The orisha bears the same name as the divination itself. I think that's true in the original Yoruba, too.

Ochosi is associated with herbalism, if that counts.

----

I'm trying to gather thoughts coherently for something better than this, but Chinese esoterica is borne on the backs of the Immortals, who are like gods in many ways, and who generally become immortal through the practice of something we'd probably consider a kind of magic. There's more on this in The Pagoda sub-section of The Temple section of the wiki.

There are Eight Immortals who're pretty popular in general Chinese culture, and Seven Taoist Immortals, and a quite few other immortals besides. The Taoist ones are nearly definitely based on actual people who lived actual lives not so very long ago, and the other ones may or may not be based on much older historical figures.

Oh, and there's the Yellow Emperor, the purported inventor of I Ching divination (depending on the story -- credit seems more often to go to Fu Xi, but I first read it was Huangdi, the Yellow Emperor, who first saw the trigrams in a turtle shell, so that's the version that sticks in my head). He's also credited with creating Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), which includes herbalism and acupuncture.

Have fun with godchecker.com's search for keyword "magic".

I love that site.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:10 / 22.09.06
An indian goddess associated with sorcery - in particular the binding of the speech of enemies is Bagalamukhi - translated as "crane-headed" or "crane-faced" - see here for an image. Bagalamukhi's iconographical depictions rarely show her with a crane's head - although she is often accompanied by a crane - which in Indian folklore is sometimes said to to be deceitful or associated with acts of cruelty. The origins of Bagalamukhi are obscure, although there are some indications that she may have been a village goddess whose worship began in Mandi (now a subdistrict of Himachal Pradesh in North-West India) and like many village goddesses, achieved a wider status, possibly due to royal patronage. Bagalamukhi is one of the 10 Mahavidyas ("great wisdom[-givers]") who appear (as a group) around the 13th-14th century and are particularly associated with Jaina tantra. She is often depicted holding a hammer, with which she pegs the tongues of enemies. See also the late David Kinsley's book Tantric Visions of the Divine Feminine (UCP 1997).
 
 
Quantum
12:22 / 22.09.06
I wondered what she was doing with that mace to that startled guy.
That leads me onto communication- language as magical. Odin discovered the runes, Thoth taught man to write and was the scribe IIRC, Hermes carried messages, there's often a connection between language and magic but not always (Hecate, Isis, maybe there's a gendered division?)

more anon.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:00 / 22.09.06
Ea, enki

Taken from the wikipedia article - *In character Enki is not a joker or trickster God, he is never a cheat, a fool nor a shapeshifter. Enki uses his magic for the good of others when called upon to help either a God, a Goddess or a Human. Enki is always true to his own essence as a masculine nurturer. He is fundamentally a trouble-shooter God, and avoids or disarms those who bring conflict and death to the world. He is the mediator whose compassion and sense of humour breaks and disarms the wrath of his stern half-brother, Enlil, king of the Gods. He is the Challenger who tests the limits of Inanna in the myth Enki and Inanna and the Me and then concedes graciously his defeat by the young goddess of Love and War, by strengthening the bonds between Eridu and her city of Uruk. So he becomes the Empowerer of Inanna. Enki is always direct and upfront. Enki does not hide, or have any hidden agenda.*
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:01 / 22.09.06
In the Vedic period, the goddess Vac is the personification of the spoken word and by extension 'truth' in the Rg Veda:

'She is the mysterious presence that enables one to hear, see, grasp and then express in words the true nature of things. She is the prompter of and vehicle of expression for visionary perception, and as such she is intimately associated with the rsis and the rituals that express or capture the truths of their visions.'

although she more or less disappears later on as much of her attributes are subsumed by Sarasvati who becomes a more prominent goddess associated with wisdom and the arts from the Epic period (i.e. the Ramayana) onwards. Epipthets of Sarasvati include Jaganmata "mother of the world"; Visvarupa - "[she who] contains all forms within her" and Kavijivagravasini "she who dwells on the tongues of poets". Vac/Sarasvati is also considered to be the "mother of all mantras".

The best overall book on the Goddess Vac in Indian traditions (imo) from the Vedas to Kashmir Shaivism is Andre Padoux's Vac: The Concept of the Word in Selected Hindu Tantras which was originally published by SUNY but is now out of print, although one can probably pick up a copy without too much trouble.
 
 
Quantum
14:20 / 22.09.06
Researching the Mayan deities, they didn't have gods of magic as such although these two are interesting;

Itzamna - The founder of the Maya culture, he taught his people to grow maize and cacao, as well as writing, calendars and medicine. With Ixchel, he was the father of the Bacabs. He was associated with snakes and mussels.

Naum - The god who invented the mind and consciousness.

The Aztecs ditto, the closest is Tezcatlipoca (also Omacatl, Titlacauan) - omnipotent god of rulers, sorcerers and warriors; night, death, discord, conflict, temptation and change. A sinister rival to Quetzalcoatl. Can appear as Mixcoatl or, more often, as a jaguar presumably the patron of the nahual/nagual or sorcerors.
 
 
Quantum
14:23 / 22.09.06
...they both had plenty of gods of healing though.
 
 
EmberLeo
17:22 / 22.09.06
Ochosi is associated with herbalism, if that counts.

Oohh, the way my House says, is that Oxossi is associated with the wild animals, and the plants belong to Ossain. Healing belongs to Omalu. All that said, I wasn't listing them because plants, animals, and healing don't have to be magic, so none of them strike me as being Orixa of Magic specifically.

Though I think actually Omalu is said to have access to some pretty special magic. They all have Their specialities.

And I think Orunmila was the name I was looking for, not Ifa, but yes, I recall that you are correct.

--Ember--
 
 
Madman in the ruins.
11:27 / 24.09.06
God of wisdom, war, battle, death. magic, poetry, prophecy, victory, and the hunt.

What can't this guy do?


Also God of song, seduction and Fucking You Up Bigtime If You're Not Careful And Possibly Even If You Are.

Amen to that!
 
 
Quantum
18:45 / 25.09.06
I'd never heard of this guy before; Veles, Volos, Weles, or Voloh is a major Slavic god of earth, waters and Underworld, associated with dragons, cattle, magic, musicians, wealth and trickery.

He's fascinating, take a look at the entry. For example;
In his role as a trickster god, he is in some ways similar to both Greek Hermes and Scandinavian Loki, and like them, he was connected with magic. The word volhov, obviously derived from his name, in some Slavic languages still means sorcerer
and
The etymology of his name links him closely to Vala, an endless serpent of Indian mythology, the enemy of Vedic thunder-god Indra, and to Vels or Velinas, a devil of Baltic mythology and enemy of baltic thunder-god Perkunas. He is also similar to Etruscan Underworld-monster Vetha and to dragon Illuyankas, enemy of storm god of Hittite mythology. There's a long tradition of dragon-god versus thunder-god wars in heaven in lots of religions, cool.
 
 
Ticker
18:59 / 25.09.06
Oooh! Quantum you've found a winner!
 
 
Haloquin
19:00 / 25.09.06
Would an almost deity fit here?
Taliesin, one of the Merlins of Britain.
Taliesin was a mortal boy called Gwion (surname; Bach) who had to stir Cerridwen's cauldron for a year and a day and who accidentally gained knowledge of magic when three drops of potion landed on his thumb, which he then sucked. Gwion was chased by Cerridwen and after shapeshifting into a series of forms he became a grain of corn, and she became a hen and ate him. He was then reborn and set on the ocean because he was so beautiful Cerridwen couldn't bear to kill him. When found caught in a fishing net he was named Taliesin, which means "Shining brow" because of his beauty.
There are many stories of his life and deeds, but I know this story the best (this version at least).

Originally he was apparently a historical figure, a poet around the 10th Century, but according to Wikipedia he was mythologised by Elis Gruffydd.
Wiki article on Taliesin here

I've known him to be treated as a deity, but to me he seems more like a character than a deity. Perhaps a helpful/powerful (maybe?) being, but not a god.
 
 
Quantum
19:02 / 25.09.06
How have I never heard of theBook of Veles?
 
 
grant
14:06 / 26.09.06
Oohh, the way my House says, is that Oxossi is associated with the wild animals, and the plants belong to Ossain.

Duh. Yeah, that's right. They, like, hang together in the woods.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
07:20 / 27.09.06
I'd think of:

Vainamoinen, god (or perhaps demi-god) of sung magic, an archetypal wizard-divinity.

And also (although perhaps he counts as "fantasy fiction"? where would be a good place to draw the line?) King Monkey, trickster to the stars and master of magic.

It does seem an interesting point to me that Gandalf would be called "fantasy fictional", whereas Vainamoinen would not; yet the two share more than a passing resemblance; Monkey might be, Hanuman would not. Is it a function of time, or of author intent, or audience intent?, edu hvat?
 
 
Quantum
09:10 / 27.09.06
Monkey has a bit more provenence than most fictional characters, "Various legends concerning Sun Wukong date back to before written Chinese history" which is a pretty long time. Sun Wukong became so well-known in China that he was once worshipped by some as a real god. and he has his own festival day;
The Sun Wu Kong festival is celebrated on the sixteenth day of the eighth Lunar Month on the Chinese Calendar. Festivals feature recreations of his ordeals such as walking on a bed of coals and climbing a ladder of knives.

Väinämöinen is pretty cool, I'd never heard of him. His final story is very Arthurian;
Defeated, Väinämöinen goes to the shores of the sea, where he sings for himself a boat of copper, with which he sails away from the mortal realms. In his final words, he promises that there shall be a time when he shall return, when his crafts and might shall once again be needed. Thematically, the 50th poem thus echoes the arrival of Christianity to Finland and the subsequent fading into history of the old pagan beliefs.
 
 
Quantum
09:39 / 27.09.06
Gandalf would be called "fantasy fictional", whereas Vainamoinen would not; yet the two share more than a passing resemblance

Because Gandalf was based on the Merlin archetype that Vainamoinen helped spawn I think. It *is* a blurry line between fiction and myth, but I mostly wanted religious and mythical figures rather than pop culture.
Nobody re-enacts Gandalf's fall into darkness like they walk on hot coals for Monkey, and Vainamoinen was not created by an Oxford don in a pub with C.S. Lewis, or based on christ, but a story perpetuated by a whole culture and invested with meaning beyond entertainment.
But anyway, more cool Gods! Anyone familiar with Australian or African pantheons?
 
 
grant
13:50 / 27.09.06
Hmmm. Beyond the Yoruba-based stuff above, I've done a bit of reading into Bantu stuff, but it's not really god-based. There's a kind of Olodumare-like conception of a remote, uninvolved Creator, and various mythic figures, but none (that I know of) that were treated like gods, just figures in stories. Wizards pop up in all kinds of stories, though, good and evil. (I don't know what "wizard" is in translation -- I was reading a lot of kids' stories, and few more academic versions of the same stories on maybe an Anthro 101 level, but not enough to know if these were sangomas or something else.)

"Bantu," by the way, is a language/cultural group that stretches from around Nigeria and Kenya, I think, down to South Africa. Zulus, Xhosas, Sothos, Vendas, Swazis, Shona etc. are all Bantu. (Khoi-San aren't -- and there are linguistic traces of Khoi-San as far north as Uganda. The clicking language. They may have a very different cosmology, but I don't know it.)

I could dig up my old Credo Mutwa and look through it. Actually, I was reading this stuff Before Internet -- lemme glance at wikipedia.

The only google return for "wikipedia" "bantu mythology" is the Trickster article, and it lists Hare.

Hmm. Following links, it says "Bantu" is considered pejorative in South Africa. News to me.

Category:Mythemes might be handy.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:37 / 27.09.06
To Exu-Aluvaiá were given the following 7 gifts by Nzambi:

1- "So that you can travel freely, to places where I can not always be, I give you the key that opens the limits between one place and another, between light and darkness, between hot and the cold,..."

2- "I give you free will to choose between good and evil..."

3- "You shall have knowledge of all things, be able to remember all the things you see and hear from this day forward, so you will be able to enrich your wisdom from your own experiences and those of others..."

4- "I grant you the power to bring forth changes in the matter which I have created..."

5- "You shall be able to see through time, to be able to know the past and the future of all beings, but not your own future..."

6- "You shall possess the intelligence to understand all creatures, high and low and in between…"

7- "I give you the power to multiply yourself, to create similar spiritual beings as yourself, but lower in powers and faculties. Be careful with this, because once divide you will not be able to unite yourself again. That mystery is with me alone."

And this 7th gift to Exu-Aluvaiá is the reason why we have so many different road/manifestations of Exu today.

The above is taken from a website about the quimbanda tradition - Quimbanda
 
 
grant
16:50 / 27.09.06
More Bantu myths here, in an old book on sacredtexts.com. Basically, more detailed version of what I said above, but there may be a godly magic user in there somewhere.

Note that the structure is more Remote Creator/Originator -> Ancestor spirits || Historical Heroes || Animal figures -> People today. "Magic" I think is divided into givers of spiritual advice (which can also be tactical/historical), and healers (who know a lot of pharmacology).
 
 
EmberLeo
22:32 / 27.09.06
Re the links for Bantu and Quimbanda and such: I love you people!

I've known [Taleisin] to be treated as a deity, but to me he seems more like a character than a deity. Perhaps a helpful/powerful (maybe?) being, but not a god.

Well, there's a category between Gods and mere "characters" for Honored Ancestoral Heroes and such. If a religion has a great deal of Ancestor Worship, mortals may still be considered active influences after they have died.

That's about how I percieve Taleisin, really - He certainly seems to have some ability to ping folks for attention, in any case.

It does seem an interesting point to me that Gandalf would be called "fantasy fictional",

Because Gandalf was based on the Merlin archetype

Actually, to my knowledge Gandalf ("Wand-Elf") is pretty heavily influenced by Odin, and even shares several of His kennings.

invested with meaning beyond entertainment.

Oh, I think both C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien invested their writings with meaning beyond entertainment. The key difference isn't per se the intent of the author, but the known and singular identity of the author.

There's always the argument that Fan-Fic is the modern equivalent of folk tales - stories filled with characters everybody already knows, but meant to explore whatever ideas are pertinent to the teller and their audience. I suspect the urge is always there, it's just at some point the idea came along that telling new stories is "making things up", where telling old stories is not, and any stories created after that line was drawn are less real.

--Ember--
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
08:48 / 28.09.06
Sunjata might be of interest, although he's more in EmberLeo's intermediate Honored Ancestral Hero category than god. I think there's several versions of the story, as well.
Lord knows whether Anansie counts. Trickster figures (Loki? Coyote? Monkey? Puck? Raven?) seem difficult to place neatly; while many or most of them use magical mischief, to the extent that it's a very strong part of their character, they're just as likely to use sleight of hand tricks and verbal guile.

As to the Monkey thing, I was always of the impression that Wu Ch'eng-en, or however you spell the transliteration, had written Journey to the West as satire and entertainment, using an already well known story as a base. I guess the difference between him and Gandalf is that the identification is (more) explicit, rather than the, ah, degree of reverence in which the original character is held, or the intention or identity of the author.
 
 
Dead Megatron
11:23 / 28.09.06
Because Gandalf was based on the Merlin archetype

Actually, to my knowledge Gandalf ("Wand-Elf") is pretty heavily influenced by Odin, and even shares several of His kennings.

And some Jesus Christ too, with all the "ressurection as an even more luminous being" and "being sent by Higher Powers to the World to mend things and redeem the People" deal
 
 
Quantum
17:45 / 28.09.06
Like Aslan.
 
 
Ticker
17:52 / 28.09.06
Gods of magic. Tell me everything you know, and let's put it all here, please cite sources if you can and no RPG, fantasy fiction, comic or cinematic sources please, neither Gandalf nor Shazam is a god of magic.

er....why are you kids talking about Gandalf again?
 
 
ghadis
22:23 / 28.09.06
This is a great thread! Loads of fantastic, interesting ideas and insights into different cultures and deities. I'm learning loads! Cheers Temple peeps!

I've been thinking a lot about the 'God Of Magic' deity and the concept of it.

Still with the Egyptian stuff...

Heka, who i talked about up thread, seems to me to be a deification of an idea. A creative power. The act of divine and personal creation. The fact that he is decribed as magic, or indeed the deity of magic, seems to be a translation by 'us' to somehow explain the thoughts of ancient egyptians, to fill a gap. There doesn't seem to be any ancient egyptian word for 'religion' for example, or 'faith'. The nearest we can get is Heka. Heka, as a deity doesn't really pop up much as what we might call a god. There is some mythology about him but it is usually as a deity to prop up and support Re and other important gods. As far as i know there were no temples to Heka. No cult centers. He was seen as a divine mystery really. A force. An unknown power. Magic.

Djhuti or Thoth as a god of Magic is a completly different thing. A Creator Deity. A God of Word, of language. There is a big difference between the Djuhuti of the Pyramid texts, which was very violent, and later ideas of hir being the giver of knowledge that turned into the Hermetic Thoth. Djhuti had centres of worship, starting in quite specific places, then spreading out. It is a beautiful, scary, wonderful deity to engage with. It is HUGE!. And to be honest, for me in my practice, quite fucking terrifing. But in a good way!

I wanted to also talk about Bes in this post. I linked to, what i thought was a Heka-Bes image in the other thread. May well be, i don't know, but the Heka influences were interesting.

Bes seems to be more of a Deity for protection. Connected to health. The two snakes he may hold are about surviving snake bites etc or about projecting that snakey goodness or badness outwards. He's also conected with the goddess Tawert and midwifery. There is an ancestry of warfare with him as well though. Bes is the sort of deity you would put images of him in a pot to fuck up an enemy. To help a friend. To get some money. To do a bit of 'Sorcery' with.

So thinking about these three, 'Gods of Magic' has me thinking a lot about how the term is so fluid and interesting. And also about my own practice. I have an alter set up to Djuhuti (and others). I don't have an altar set up to Heka. I do bits of Sorcery type stuff (not with Bes) but would not really think of approching Djuhuti with things so trivial. At the same time i have an. 'understanding of Heka' and do do offerings to him.

What i'm trying to explain is...

This God = Abstract Idea

This God = Big Engagment with Huge Stuff!!

This God = Getting on with day to day spells and shit

That's about it...
 
  

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