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The Apocalypse

 
  

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Scrambled Password Bogus Email
18:22 / 20.09.06
So, my practice, as some of you may know, is of the rather visionary sort, and one rather dominant theme has been recurring again and again of late - not just for me, and not just for our group, either, but globally amongst those that, er, invite this nonsense in. It's a bit of a biggie, so big it's actually rather easy to just watch and feel and not really engage with it in quite the same hand wringing and sweaty way that the ensinos, or teachings, as regards one's own conduct and morality tends to induce. Adjusting one's own relationship to oneself and one's conduct, being less rigid, being organic and flowing, not egoic and stiff, asking for and receiving pardon for wrongdoing, being in love with Truth, big 'T', being True, big 'T' - all this stuff is, rather paradoxically, the meat and potatoes of the work, but simultaneously child's play. S'relatively easy once you get the hang of it and apply what comes up to your life. Mindfulness gets you a long, long way. I mean, it can be, and regularly is, as painful and humbling as anything you'll ever experience short of being electrocuted naked in front of your friends and family and work colleagues and everyone else in Trafalgar Square on New Year's Eve and broadcast live to every major city and remote outpost the world over while a robed hooded figure reads a list of your most private mistakes and regrets throughout your life into a microphone. But you know, we all gets our kicks somehow, right?

But that ain't what this thread's about.

It's the End Times, Baby! The Last Stand! So huge and all engulfing that you just have to watch and feel and then...quickly scrabble back to your own mess...it's just too mind-wrenching to stay with. Back to the Trafalgar Square electrocution, and hurry!

So, let me expand - I'm going to use definitive descritptions here, but please be aware that I am not saying 'This is so'. I'm...relating a tale. Chinese whisper style. Astral to me to you, so to speak. So bear that in mind. This is a kibble of Astral gossip, a page from some kind of ethereal 'Bella!' magazine or something. Or maybe it was the Times, I forget. Anyway, third hand, so feel free to call me a weirdo or a freak if it helps. And bear in mind, there may have been some Editorial Bias creeping in there. Heheh.

For noobs, apologies, but I ain't going into the how. Just the what.

The countdown to Armageddon is well and truly ticking, and we're probably within a decade or so of such radical change that it's pointless speculating what, how, why or where. Just face and accept that the whole structure currently in place, everything you've known and loved and bitched about and complained of and taken for granted your whole life long, is not going to see you through to the end of that life. All that shit worrying you right now, that's utter bullshit. You are going to be struggling for food and water that you can actually drink not 10 years hence, and probably fighting your corner. It's a major fucking catastrophe. Cataclysm doesn't quite cover it. It's worse than as bad as it gets.

Maybe.

I really hope not. But I gots this Really Bad Feeling.

Obviously, this stuff is quite a lot to take on board, and I have always been highly sceptical of apocalyptic prediction and doomsaying. However, I'm now the butt end of an awful lot of this Astral McGuffin, and one of the more recurring and persistent channels, recently, is exactly that : Society as it stands is simply not going to make it. An awful lot of (more) people are going to die. And everything is going to be very, very different. Scarcity will very much be the watchword.

Soon.

There is, of course, opportunity - now, right now - to sort this out. But let's face it, it ain't going to happen, our very own 'Invisibles: A Call to Arms' thread notwithstanding. Maybe something, some Miracle still waits. I'd like that. That'd make me feel a whole lot more relaxed.

Don't get me wrong, hope springs eternal. It's just that eternity seems to be getting a bit knackered as far as homo sapiens goes. Please return your seats to the upright position, Eternity will be finishing shortly. Hope has thus been cancelled due to withdrawal of funds.

So, without really wanting to dissect the hows and wheretofores of this vibration I am carrying (and spreading right here.....hmmm (note: I just meditated long and hard about whether to scrap this whole thing and not bother...more Light, brothers and sisters, do not give life to a Non-Entity...but it seems to still be here, so...draw your own conclusions), and trying my best to transform and make useful, I'm interested in whether other practitioners with Astral contact are picking up on this stuff, and if so, how the fuck are you coping?

Don't get me wrong : the Astral is full of liars and tricksters. I know that. Been there, worked that. But they have a flavour I tend to recognise, these days. A certain giveaway smell, so to speak. Working on the power to discriminate, to tell True from False, is, of course, totally essential to any practice working with the Big Kahunas. And, you know, without blowing my own trumpet, I've paid some dues in that respect.

Which is not to say I know anything more than you or the next suit. I'm well aware that talking like this thread talks is not going to sit easy with some of the sceptical observers here on the board...Astral wha? S'e onabout? In fact, tlaking like this is generally restricted to my Particular Friends becuase...well, no one wants to be The Raving Loony Banging on About the Apocalypse if they can really help it, now do they? And nobody wants to know the Raving Loony Banging on about The Apocalypse either. It's kind of embarrassing. Selfawaria is not exactly alien to me. Regular hangout, I'd like to think, tbh., so I know how this floats.

But for those who can comment without all that, how do you cope with this crap? I mean, it makes purposive action rather...filtered. It is manifesting in me as a very powerful lesson in avoiding nihilism, whatever the, er, weather. I'm fundamentally preparing Spirit for some unbelievably difficult times ahead. There ain't much more to be done, it seems. Except change everything, right this instant. I mean, globally, that's the real hope. Enough people prepared to do that, we might scrape by.

Maybe.

I'm also deeply inspired to completely quit my life and find a small Green Corner to fight for, professionally, and just go at it hammer and tongs. Help. People, the land, the sea. Help. And learn a few more real and earthy skills...yurt building, smithying, healing, foraging, that kind of thing. Hunter/Gatherer/Healer, you know?

So, anyway, I'm serious. If you are a magician, and, like me right now (subject to change without prior notification), when you look around you can already see the charge of the Apocalypse, the dust is airborne, it's begun, then what now?

Enough with your sigil for a new job, enough with the mojo bag so he/she fancies you : half the people in that shithole workplace aren't going to make it, and the person you are lusting after could be all you have to eat in a decade, and you're gonna be wondering how to season them and what with.

What The Fuck Now?

My mate, who is Jewish, is moving to Israel, for, in his own words 'front row seats when it (Armageddon) really starts in earnest'. Which is quite amusing and possibly a great idea.

So, if you;re not too busy working hard to pay off your mortgage, and not sidetracked by those pesky relationship issues, come into this thread and share yours!!

Disclaimer : In a months time, I may feel a whole lot more optimistic and regret ever posting this thread. And I've been avoiding Barbelith generally recently because...well, there really isn't time...but sod it, here goes with the Post Topic.
 
 
Ticker
19:21 / 20.09.06
You've made me a bit maudlin so I'll post this:

Just in case the world implodes or we're invaded by hostiles
from another dimension, I want you to know that I love
you more than anything. And I'll see you on the next
go-around.


which came attached to this link....

"For the first time in many decades we have built a machine that exceeds our powers of prediction" OR We have no fucking idea what it will do, but it's cool no?


I grew up with a Fortean who is also a collector of rare WWII guns. One of my requirements for taking a new job is "can I walk home in case civilization ends?"
I can't live in NYC because I don't want to be on an island that small when the weirdness comes down.

I use to get a bit more stressed about it until my good friend pointed out that we'll be exactly where we need to be when the Badness arrives. I probably think about it more than anyone on my street but it is usually in crazed faux practical ways like "the cats will get worms eating wild caught game, I better find out how to deworm them".

This morning I passed the marker for where the first transatlantic cable was laid and thought "huh, going to be a lot of useless cable hanging out in the oceans as an artifact of our civilization."

Spiritually I'm prepping on how to help people with grief because no matter what the reality of the future maybe, we need help when our loved ones pass on. I work with Death Deities and some of what's in the works is very very epic, but isn't it always?

Intellectually I find the whole craving for the Apocalypse to be a sad indicator of our immature need for an external force to come correct our mistakes. Why the fuck do we not have better programs to depollute our environment now? Why are so many people waiting for salvation rather than embracing the heavenly potential of this world if we just stop being such asshats?
 
 
EmberLeo
19:28 / 20.09.06
AUGH.

My parents raised me with a certain concern for the collapse of civilization. Now that I'm involved in the local Heathen community, I've got quite a few friends who are concerned about one or another perspective on Ragnarok.

Periodically folks inform me that when the time comes I will be one of those who keeps folks together, and knows what to do. And here I am doing my best to not think about it at all, because I can see it serving no purpose to dwell on a maybe. If I am meant to be this, then it will happen. If not, then not.

My father and I have similar nightmares, each from our own perspective. Flooding. I dream that I am saved, but I cannot find my loved ones. He dreams that he has successfully saved his loved ones, including me, but cannot save himself.

From the perspective of the Aesir, this whole thing is inevitable, for the world to continue on in a better way. From the perspective of the Vanir, however, it seems ridiculous to throw away a perfectly acceptable world - to give up - just because we're too damned lazy to FIX what we've broken.

And the whole thing makes me very angry.

I performed in Oracles of the Living Tarot, as Judgement. If folks are interested, I can post that monologue here, since it's a direct outgrowth of my perspective on this topic.

--Ember--
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
19:44 / 20.09.06
The Apocalypse! My favorite!

Not counting daydreams (probably once a day) I Dream about the apocalypse maybe once a week. I have for years. I used to wonder if it meant anything, but I don't worry much any more. Death by nukes, alien invasion, meteors, environmental catastrophe, plague, zombies. I don't think I've ever dreamed about what I call Death by Transcendance where we all turn into four dimensional alien angels when the mayan calendar runs out or whatever though. Guess I'm not into that.

There was also one kind of nasty one that, unlike the others, sort of freaked me out a bit. I'm not going to repeat it here because I'm a bit afraid of attracting someone's attention.

How do I deal with it? In some sick way, the part of me that has seen Max Max and a few other movies too many times thinks this is going to be much more fun than my current existence in cubicle land and is looking forward to it. The more intelligent part of me suspects that these dreams are some kind of metaphor for things going on in my psyche that I need to address or avoid.

Meanwhile, I have spent a reasonable amount of my life learning about things like gardening, first aid, martial arts, and old school engineering (like "how to make a pump"). And when bored at work my friends and I have indulged in long emails about pre-arranged behavior so we can track each other down in case cell phone coverage is spotty, and whether it'd be better to build some kind of homestead in this or that climate. If it's fun for me to learn these things anyway, then I guess it couldn't hurt to be prepared. I definitely think it's more important to be very adaptable to whatever weirdness might happen, rather than having a stockpile of stuff in an underground bunker and then the missiles fall while you're on vacation on the wrong end of the country. Oops.

Intellectually I find the whole craving for the Apocalypse to be a sad indicator of our immature need for an external force to come correct our mistakes. Why the fuck do we not have better programs to depollute our environment now? Why are so many people waiting for salvation rather than embracing the heavenly potential of this world if we just stop being such asshats?

this might be the best point I've heard made around here in a long while. in my case I guess the idea would be "why do I crave the apocalypse to set me free from my cubicular life style when I could just go buy some land in the mountains and live like a hermit?" I guess it's a trade off - I'm feeling like I still have a lot to learn/do in the civilized world for now, and also I have these regular expensive medical treatments to keep me out of trouble...
 
 
Ticker
19:45 / 20.09.06
hey I say go for it.
 
 
EvskiG
20:00 / 20.09.06
People in just about every time predict an Apocalypse of one sort or another.

For plenty of them, in plenty of different times (the Crusades, WWI, WWII, Rwanda, Iraq, etc.) it more-or-less comes to pass in their lifetimes. Homes destroyed, people uprooted, families murdered, social and political systems shattered, famine, disease -- the whole works.

Plenty of others continue to go about their lives unscathed.

I'm not sure how much storing canned food and guns in my (non-existent) basement would help if things get wacky.

Personally, I'm within a nuke's strike of NYC and near a dozen giant chemical plants off of the New Jersey Turnpike. (Sopranos territory.) If things ever devolve quickly, I'm dead. If things ever devolve less quickly, it will be an interesting lesson in improvisation.

But it doesn't keep me awake at night. And I'm not stocking up on Ragnar Benson books.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
20:44 / 20.09.06
Okay, the Apocalypse comes and you die.

Well, you were gonna have to die sooner or later, right?

Some disaster strikes and you don't die.

Well, life may be hard, but it's hard for everyone and you could say you're better off than all those dead people floating in the Mississippi (or under the rubble of fallen buildings or burned to death in a wildfire and so on).

I think, at heart, as much as people would rather not deal with it, there is a general urge that wants to see the world end. That wants something catastrophic to happen so that you can relinquish every one of the the trivial concerns that plague most people everyday.
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:19 / 20.09.06
Fear of death, fear of impermanence. what great forms of social control. lots of 'astral' forms feed on fear and extreme emotion, just like many non astral religions do, so why feed them with the fear of death or the world ending.

If your gonna die, you cant do anything and if the world is you cant do anything, why worry about it? How much money can i make selling you the end of the world with you as the only solution? If only youd do this, do that.

The only world thats really ending are the peoples that have certain beliefs invested in making this one operate under a completely false premise. They are making outrageous claims based largely on false knowledge and at the expense of a sovereign human nature.

Whose best intrest is it in to keep you fearful and in a state of panic, is it in your best intrests?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
21:37 / 20.09.06
Just to point out, I don't have a shitty cubicle job that I hate, and a general misanthropic disposition because of it. I love just about most of my beautiful life, and all my amazing relationships within it, hard times and good.

But you hardly need second sight to notice that things are slightly different to millenial tension at the turn of the first, being a convenient doomsday date or something. There seems to be a suggestion that fearing the planet may be just about to shrug it's homeostatic environmental poncho to remove the irritation is somehow...a wish fulfilment? Interesting. Certainly possible.

We are in the middle of a mass extinction event, and we are observing hugely significant shifts in the environment-climate dynamic, and we are pumping depleted uranium into people and land and stoking ideological division in the middle east with a healthy dose of full military exchange, and a lot of nations already have a lot of nukes and a lot of others are desperate to get them, and rattling their sabres...it's not a bunch of power-crazed priest-politicians declaring the End is Nigh, it's on BBC3 in the 60 second news.

That's just the inspiration, I guess...you think maybe I'm reading too much into it? How seriously close are we to climate catastrophe? Nobody actually knows do they? It's still a media riff, arguments on every side...Mars is also undergoing global warming...it's a natural thing...organic global warming, full of nutrients.

It's true that many ages have had End Times prophecy imminent doom, but never has it been so immediately apparent and available to almost everyone in the Western World just how fucking delicately close to the edge the current situation really is...No?

Am I scaremongering and pessimistic or horrified and realistic? First one to say a bit of both gets the RAW pendant.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
21:42 / 20.09.06
Fear of death, fear of impermanence. what great forms of social control.

So..wait...you're saying that fear of death is a Trick pulled by The Man?? It's because they (the death scaredy's) are afraid to die that The Man has Power and is able to Control? Can you explain that a bit?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
21:50 / 20.09.06
If your gonna die, you cant do anything and if the world is you cant do anything, why worry about it?

Interesting you bring this up, actually, because the felt-tip headlines and the actual headlines are a bit of a wind up with the 'Save the Planet' schtick, aren't they? We all know the planet is fine, right? It's just doing it's thing.

It's us, and all the shit we eat, that is going to have the rough ride..barring asteroids, that is. A big enough asteroid obviously can cause a bit of a bruise, even to a planet.

No, as far as climate change goes, the planet is saving itself, surely?

I think the notion, Sin, is that if we, collectively, as a species, stopped contributing to the factors which cause climate change, then we might, almost 'magically', you might say, be able to save ourselves.

So I'd take issue with your opening gambit there..it sounds like a line from a bad action movie, low budget. It sort of paints you as part of the problem, as well, rather than a solution seeker. Just sayin'.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
21:55 / 20.09.06
I think, at heart, as much as people would rather not deal with it, there is a general urge that wants to see the world end. That wants something catastrophic to happen so that you can relinquish every one of the the trivial concerns that plague most people everyday.

I think, up front, that much as people might not see it, often their most casual opinions reveal more about them than the random set they happen to be talking about in their sweeping and unexamined manner.

Who, exactly, among the 'people' you mention, has this 'general' urge?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
21:57 / 20.09.06
The only world thats really ending are the peoples that have certain beliefs invested in making this one operate under a completely false premise.

Can you elaborate a bit on this? What beliefs? What false premise? You seem to know what you are talking about, but I certainly don't.

They are making outrageous claims based largely on false knowledge and at the expense of a sovereign human nature.

Sorry, who, again? What claims? What false knowledge? If we can get to that, it might be good to discuss what you mean by 'sovereign human nature' as well.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
22:00 / 20.09.06
Well, life may be hard, but it's hard for everyone

Are you sure?

and you could say you're better off than all those dead people floating in the Mississippi (or under the rubble of fallen buildings or burned to death in a wildfire and so on).

I...could...say...that...yes...in as much as...I...am...alive and...here...and not burned up or drowned...or squashed...and it is fun...

Good, er, point.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
22:09 / 20.09.06
For plenty of them, in plenty of different times (the Crusades, WWI, WWII, Rwanda, Iraq, etc.) it more-or-less comes to pass in their lifetimes. Homes destroyed, people uprooted, families murdered, social and political systems shattered, famine, disease -- the whole works.

I wonder how much the theme of Apocalypse - and the dominant religious discourse(s) on the planet is (are), of course, full of it - within the cultural and individual psyche has to do with these epic renditions of versions of it that we seem so addicted to as a species?? I think that's what poster upthread was getting at while leaping to conclusions.

In fact, in many respects, it is a last-ditch option for a panicking ego - mutual annihilation. If it's existence is threatened, it's not going out alone! Ego being in and of itself, by defintion, separative, it is the ultimate response to the drama of that separation - to annihilate the Other, both consciously and unconsciously as basic behaviours stemming from a condition of feeling separate and hermetically sealed...so quite apart from the aggressive wars conducted against brother and sister, there is the fundamental disregard for the complete unity of the system and the process, no recognition or respect paid to the cycles of birth, growth, death and rebirth, even in the land and sea within living tangible and measurable processes, never mind karmically or energetically.

It's a powerful meme, a fundamental part of the Christian and Islamic cultural psyche, and worth discussing here beyond 'When you gotta go, you gotta go', or 'it's all about social control'...
 
 
Henningjohnathan
22:35 / 20.09.06
Well, life may be hard, but it's hard for everyone

Are you sure?

and you could say you're better off than all those dead people floating in the Mississippi (or under the rubble of fallen buildings or burned to death in a wildfire and so on).

I...could...say...that...yes...in as much as...I...am...alive and...here...and not burned up or drowned...or squashed...and it is fun...

Good, er, point.


If there is an apocalypse, life is definitely going to be hard for everyone who's alive. Isn't that part of your first point.

If you want a serious discussion then why are you being so defensive and deliberately offensive?
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:37 / 20.09.06
Sure, death and impermanence are mystisised to seem like unantural forces so we dont have a realistic relationship with them as natural normal occuring events, which creates a fear based phenomena around them that can be used to inspire obedience because of the great unknown, death. The nasty that gets us in so many different ways.

Its not the man, but theocratic systems of social control that tend to use that one, the alternative is, do as your told and you will be born as a better species, higher up the imaginary ladder between hell point and heaven point.

i dont see the planet as a problem, i dont see a solution to the planet either, i see the evidence for environmental damage and the evidence against, i also realise that the green industry is a growing industry as is the non green industry and causes pollution and environmental damage relative to its own size. So for example it costs more to recycle paper than it does to grow trees to make paper, the reason more trees are farmed and grown is because they become a commodity for paper furniture etc, without that process of industry no more trees would be planted after being felled, thats as in none. The energy thats used in recycling paper is using more resources and energy than it does to farm trees.

I have started to get very cynical of the whole process of green politics, if i didnt know better i would say its the new political catholic guilt machine, that certain political movements have been sabotaged by the fast dying theocrats of a gone by age of community programming, But i do know better and know what parts of my own personal paranoias and grievances that references.

The evidence and hard proofs are there on both sides of the environmental argument, its not about problems and solutions for me, its about 'is there really a problem, or have i been sold a load of horse shit by baby boomers, along with there crap drug habits' not that i am bitter in anyway, but i probably am.

The whole problem solution argument misses the evidence from both positions and all the positions inbetween. Its all too easy to point a finger at the nasty technocrats especially if that reinforces your own percieved standpoint. So my question would be, is there a problem that actually demands a solution? maybe, maybe not.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:54 / 20.09.06
The false premise is all world faiths based upon unempirical knowledge or unself experienced gnosis. That deny the sovereign right of each human being to self define as they choose to. There apocalypses will become true for them. (just as the counter cultural end of the world scenario, rooted in its own reaction to christian moralism will become true for it).

Current power structures are attempting to create the final scene in there own epic story as there story comes to an end, and all those internal stories come to an end in all the people that play there parts relating to those storys. They want and need an end scene as more people become aware of the lies that are binding them and start to loosen those bonds.

The fear of the great big end of the movie is being used to create one last burst of compliance, but eventually release will unfold from those moments, equal and opposite reactions. I dont mean beings of light, but the slow death of institutions that can no longer contain truly freed human beings. The rise of human rights based culture and the death of faith based cultures that dont adapt to human freedom.

I could just be dreaming, but its how i see it going down.
 
 
Unconditional Love
23:05 / 20.09.06
I have a strong conviction that human beings will adapt and survive to what ever conditions present themselves in the environments around them, that they will use there knowledge and tools to prosper as best fits them and to the extent of there knowledge at the time.

I dont envision an end game, life keeps going, even if were reduced to hitching lifts on asteroids.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
00:02 / 21.09.06
If you want a serious discussion then why are you being so defensive and deliberately offensive?

If you could just point out where I've done that, it might help...

I'm confused, not being rude...asking you to elaborate isn't that rude is it? Or 'defensive' for that matter. Sin managed it just fine...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
00:10 / 21.09.06
And, sorry, at the risk of appearing brusque, if not downright offensive and rude, but can you answer the questions I raised about your posts, please? (The people and the general urges question, first...). If you were just being anecdotal that's fine...you think something just, well, because that's what you think. You have to think something, right?

Would you like a cup of tea and a biscuit?

I'm trying to be nice.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
00:15 / 21.09.06
The energy thats used in recycling paper is using more resources and energy than it does to farm trees.

Source? Link?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:15 / 21.09.06
human beings will adapt and survive to what ever conditions present themselves in the environments around them, that they will use there knowledge and tools to prosper as best fits them

Can I do reality check here? I'm going to do reality check.

Our quality of life isn't going to be improved by a lack of electricity, no running water, no hospitals and those things are a distinct (not undeniable but distinct) possibility. Sure the human race might survive but we're experiencing utter luxury here and I personally can't conceive of people dying from mild influenza in massive sweeps because no more anti-biotics can be produced because the sea destroyed our infrastructure. It's all well and good to talk about the human race surviving but I like a bit of joy and comfy beds and the time afforded to me by not having to flat out survive ever day of my life. It would be nice if I could afford those luxuries to future people. That's why our institutions should get off their fucking arses and deal with this and why we should do it individually too.

We don't need the astral plane to tell us any of this. We need to look at the photos of the glaciers receding year upon year and think "oh shit, I'm going to fucking respond because I care about people who haven't been born yet". The argument against this doesn't matter because the things that need to be done to curtail the possibility of huge climate change all deal with extreme human luxuries that are completely unneccesary. Who cares if the light's a bit dim when you walk into the house- a load of prats, that's who. Who has a problem with sorting their rubbish, a very lazy person. Who looks at glaciers receding and doesn't think the sea might rise, someone who can't connect water and the SEA.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
00:23 / 21.09.06
So my question would be, is there a problem that actually demands a solution? maybe, maybe not.

Could you link us up to some credible naysayer sites? The maybe not's...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
00:56 / 21.09.06
We don't need the astral plane to tell us any of this.

Quite so, and thanks, Nadezhda, for pointing out the obvious...As I said, you don't need second sight, a casual glance at a newspaper pretty much spells it out in large enough letters...though apparently not large enough for some to be convinced.

On this point, though, we aren't in the Lab, nor the Switchboard, but the Temple...so in spite of the rather awkward bit of having to accept the notion of an Astral realm, we were talking about the presence of the same stuff that's in the newspapers and on the tellybox within the Visionary Space...and, preferably, we could hang out there for a bit...I'm sure there are plenty of threads in those other fora already dealing with the issue in their own remit.

It's possibly not that useful to argue which is influencing which because, well, as above so below and vice versa. We might do better to discuss what might redeem the situation.

Do you think the world situation right now is redeemable, Nadezhda? Particularly the environment, what might inspire people to change their lives significantly enough to halt or slow down this process? I can testify that vivid views from the inside out has pretty much tipped it full angle for me, but the process of getting there may be a bit extreme for some palates. How does one convince somebody who just wants their car, their cheap air travel and their foods from around the world nice and affordable that the system they have grown up with and are plugged into is fundamentally unsustainable and that they need to change along with everyone else if there's to be a grandchildren's children's generation anything like as comfortable and secure as this present one?
 
 
Frank Fress
02:40 / 21.09.06
I was recently going through the backlog of the Viking Youth shows and came across a very interesting couple of shows where they discuss different cultures and their Eschatologies. Lee Chameleon speaks a bit on his experience growing up in the Pentecostal Church and how their end times philosophy affects their practice. Cool Stuff.

Part one of their discussion on Eschatology
 
 
trouser the trouserian
04:33 / 21.09.06
sigh.

Butterless, I don't think you need worry about being seen as a "raving looney".However, this message of doom from the astral stuff is (IMO) incredibly tedious. Particularly the bit where you say it's come from the astral - and in the grand tradition of "messages from the astral" the details are a bit vague. And you know that messages from the astral are unreliable, yet you know your contacts are the real deal - which is what most people with messages from the astral tend to say (Theosophists were saying more or less exactly that about their communications with their "masters" a 100 years ago, i.e. yes we know some people get false messages and but ours are true).

Ev KG makes a good point about the frequency with which apocalypses get announced. Although not every culture has this idea of course. Back in 12th century Europe, the Church in Europe was preaching the end of the world every couple of years or so. Try getting ahold of Leon Festinger's classic study When Prophecy Fails which is about a bunch of UFO believers who predicted that there would be a cataclysm, but the saucers would come and save them - and how this group coped with the failure of these predictions not coming to pass.

but never has it been so immediately apparent and available to almost everyone in the Western World just how fucking delicately close to the edge the current situation really is...No?

No.

After I watched the film "The War Game" in my late teens, I had nightmares for years - this was in the days of the three-minute warning and "Protect & Survive" leaflets and one day coming across South Yorkshire County Councils' post-Nuclear apocalypse' plans - planning for mass graves and so forth. Now that was scary. For me, now that the whole cold war thing has receded, the world feels a little bit safer to me.

And I think Nadezhda has a good point We don't need the astral plane to tell us any of this. And I'd go further. We don't need the astral plane. Period. We certainly don't need astral communications from entities that have less grasp of complex world issues than a stunned herring, of which many fine examples can be found on the interweb.
 
 
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07:37 / 21.09.06
We don't need the astral plane. Period.

At first a pretty scary thing to read, but after realizing what you probably mean I understand a bit more. If you look at the Astral Plane and all of the delusions it puts into us, you could liken it to in part, a kind of negative side of Yesod, the plane that is said to put all of the vital energies into the material body from the higher spheres.

So maybe the 'Astral Plane' as so many of us here often read about could be likened to a balancing agent, that makes up for all of the energies we need. Yesod gives us the energies needed to survive and create on it's bright side, but on it's darker side it fills so many of us with delusions, fake messengers, confusion bringing spirits, etc, and those energies give us all of the mixed messages and madness that we get in the world.

As for the main thread subject....I've just heard this type of thing so many times that it gets numb to me, but maybe that's something important, that no-matter how many times you read this type of thing, it's maybe best to not entirely disregard it and to remain aware of it. Being in a state of unrest or panic over it though, I can't and probably won't ever buy into that, because simply being in that state isn't as helpful as keeping an open mind and trying to be balanced. Maybe being aware that it's always a possibility, but trying to carry on living your life as clear-minded as possible could be a good thing to do, and then if anything does go down at somepoint, trust that the universe will always make sure that if you can be of help, you're probably in the right place already.

And you can count on it that many of the most Astrally obsessed people won't be getting messages anything like this, each person getting their own hall of illusions and/or real messages and all that. The most unsettling part can be how elaborate some of the totally fake messages are aswell. Not saying that this is definitely the result of a delusion or anything, just that it could easily be just that, not matter how real, complex, and sincere it seems.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:10 / 21.09.06
Good stuff..

And you know that messages from the astral are unreliable, yet you know your contacts are the real deal - which is what most people with messages from the astral tend to say (Theosophists were saying more or less exactly that about their communications with their "masters" a 100 years ago, i.e. yes we know some people get false messages and but ours are true).

Not sure what part of my posts you got this from...I thought I went to some lengths to demonstrate that there was no certainty or realness of the dealness...My opening post was merely an attempt to describe how the mirações my yage dreaming has journeyed through has recently been highly apocalyptic, and that the 'flavour' of these visions is qualitatively different to some of the earlier apocalyptic stuff I endured when still finding my feet among the denizens of that space.

As for

We don't need the astral plane. period

Horses for courses, I guess. All of the upstairs benefit I receive from the sacrament I use is said to have its origin in the Astral...todos seres divinos abide there...so I take the rough with the smooth, and assume (perhaps wrongly) that there is benefit and communication of a pertinent and relevant nature amidst the less comfortable and darker stuff that emanates from there as well as the more personal and light and more easily labelled 'wholesome' material.

I certainly didn't intend this thread to be a 'warning' or some kind of 'privileged' communication or whatever...I feel pretty bleak about the prospects for the human race directly as a result of some pretty intense yage dreaming, and wanted to kind of share the load a bit. In spite of your feeling that because the Cold War is over we are out of the woods in terms of nuclear exchange...well, sorry, but I don't agree.

Interesting you mention the Cold War, actually - there's a Michael Chrichton book, i forget the title, in which he suggests, the plot is, that the whole environmental and climate schtick is a CIA/Intelligence Agency straw man deliberately designed to replace the fear of the Cold War, and keep consumers consuming. Good ol' Mike.

If it's boring you, why post in it? Unless it's to dispel the boredom...?

I'm interested more in why the Apocalypse has been such a recurrent theme throughout humanity's exploration of the mystical, religious and magical, and why it would hold such currency within the Astral still...what the relationship between Astral and Material actually is, and whether we really can do away with it 'period'. Your 'jumped-up thought forms' from the 'entities' thread - where do you posit their existence? You, I gather, work with them...how is /would this be possible without an Astral?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:30 / 21.09.06
This makes for depressing and really troubling reading

Share the joy, where you see it. Link me up.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:40 / 21.09.06
I should perhaps, stick to a platform where the many assumptions I am being vague about here are less vague. In a way. I just like the decor and tone of chinwagging here for the different perspective.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:52 / 21.09.06
This is quite a good read
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:56 / 21.09.06
This is culled from that aya forum, and may be of interest here:

I finished a paper a while back on Stanislav Grof, who believed that our biographical content (from birth to now) have very little to do with who we are and believed that the transpersonal realms are really closer to the core of our being. (His theories came from his work with LSD in the 1950's)

One of the transpersonal realms are the pre-birth experiences known as the perinatal matices, in which there are four.

1) In the womb (The amniotic universe), 2) The beginning of birth (Cosmic Engulfment, no exit), 3) The Death/Rebirth Struggle, 4) The Death/Rebirth Experience.

It is possible that our experiences can be attributed to clearing the Death/Rebirth Struggle.

In the paper, here is what I wrote about perinatal matrix 3.

Grof entitles this section “The Third Basic Perinatal Matrix: The Death-Rebirth Struggle”. Even though the contractions are continuing, the cervix is now dilated and the there is now a way out of the entrapment that is characteristic in BPM II. This reminds me of the near death experiences where the individual who has just “died” is now going toward the light. Often in horror fiction where an incarnate entity is lost between the two worlds, they are instructed to go toward the light, allowing then to move on from one universe to the other.

Even though there is a way out, it is still a dangerous time for the fetus. It must move up the birth canal, (which is quite a bit smaller than she is). There is risk of suffocation and anoxia at this stage. While moving up the birth canal, the umbilical cord is further constricted. Also, the umbilical cord can become entangled around parts of the body, detaching it from the uterine wall, further causing separation from the fetus’s source of life. It is also noted in the text, that the fetus comes into contact, for the first time, with blood, urine and often times feces. The head of the uterus is forced into it’s new world for the first time because of the contractions of her mother.

The symbolic references that one may have during an experience with BPMIII include dangerous adventures, feelings of pulsating and explosive energy. The text includes identifications with volcanoes, tidal waves or earthquakes. Grof also mentions wars, revolutions, atomic bombs, scenes of gladiator struggles, or sadomasochistic experiences (having to do with both the painful and orgasmic experience of BPM III).

Experience with BPM III can be an important healing in accepting the inevitable and one’s ability to use her own resources in regards to solving problems. Also, this experiential level has many experiences that can heal the view of good and bad, light and dark, preferred and unpreferred etc. A healing in this area may help an individual become more empathetic to the attitudes and situations of those around her.


I put it here for discussion. I have personally had experiences that tell me that 1) Yage is clearing birth trauma from the central nervous system and this could certainly be my representation of it and 2) There is also more to it as yage also enhances our psychic abilities.

I believe (without any empirical evidence) that our collective birth trauma also plays out physically in the world. That our revelations are both predictive and curative, meaning that when these traumas are released, we may perhaps release an inevitable outcome, or at least our contribution to it.

Many thanks to "I AM" for that post.

___________________________________________________________

Metamorphic technique treatments I have been receiving may be wrapped up in this, all told...
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:03 / 21.09.06
Buttergun

Yes, you did a lot of qualifying in relation to the theme of your post "astral gossip" etc., but it still gave me the impression that (to whatever degree) you accepted the veracity of the source - otherwise, why mention the astral at all? If you didn't intend the message to be a "warning" when why couch it in such declarative language:

Just face and accept that the whole structure currently in place, everything you've known and loved and bitched about and complained of and taken for granted your whole life long, is not going to see you through to the end of that life.

- reads as pretty definitive to me.

I can understand - and empathise with your personal revelation - and the sense of urgency expressed - and the feeling that something has to be done - and I hope that it will lead to some kind of affirmative action. After all, these feelings are very much the character of revelation in general (Saul's conversion after the burning bush encounter on the road to Damascus being a classic example).

I've just been reading Geoffrey Tillet's rather engaging biography of CW Leadbeater "The Elder Brother" and Tillet makes the observation, speaking of Leadbeater's relationship with his numerous inner-plane guides and discarnate masters (from which he chaneled reams of material) that they never actually disagreed with what he already knew to be the case and their communications backed up or reinforced Leadbeater's position on various matters. So if one encounters astral entities who say "everything you hold to be safe is going to change in ways that you can't predict" is this totally surprising?

However, if within ten years there is a major cataclysm, and assuming I survive being torn to pieces by mutant squirrels, if anyone says "I told you this would happen" I will accept it with good grace, and admit that yes, I should have withdrawn my pension fund back then and blown it all on cocaine and sexual debauchery.

Here's an article On the Cusp of the Millennium Martyrs, Prayer Wars and UFO Visitations which examines apocalyptic movements - such as the infamous Aum Shinryikyo cult in Japan - in relation to the Millenium.

My point regarding the Cold War was not so much trying to say that the world is necessarily safer but to try and articulate what it felt like during that period - the constant internal whisper that the next three minutes could be your last.

And regarding so-called thought-forms - no. I don't consider them as having an seperate "astral" existence. On a purely practical level, it makes no difference at all.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:27 / 21.09.06
Hmm.

reads as pretty definitive to me

...

I'm going to use definitive descritptions here, but please be aware that I am not saying 'This is so'. I'm...relating a tale. Chinese whisper style.

...

I do, however, take your point.
 
  

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