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The Pope's recent comments on Islam

 
  

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Axolotl
11:32 / 16.09.06
So the Pope gave a lecture at his old university during which he quoted a Byzantine Emperor who said:
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
This is a fairly controversial statement to have quoted in a speech, even one on the need to reconcile faith and reason. Was the Pope's criticism valid, and even if it was should he have expressed it more diplomatically?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:36 / 16.09.06
Fatuous thing to say, really, whatever he believes about its truth-value. The official line is that the Church 'esteems Muslims, because they adore the only true God', and that the Pope himself has the greatest respect for Islam; apparently his quote was taken out of context... blah. It honestly doesn't matter (I don't see how that quote is helpful in the discussion at hand, myself, but what the hey, I haven't been following it); it's just not a good thing for the Pope to say, ever, even if he's appearing in the annual Vatican pantomime as Pope Alexander the Libidinous.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:38 / 16.09.06
It's a bit telling, certainly. Manuel II was writing at a time when the Byzantine Empire was increasingly fucked, and the greatest threat to its survival was the Ottoman empire, whereas at about the same time the Catholic nations in Western Europe were supporting Constantinople as a staging point for the Crusades.

Hear that word? Yeah. Not a word we like to see, because it tends to act as a great propanaganda tool for extremists.

Now, what Benedict appears to have forgotten in his speech is that two hundred years earlier the Crusaders were beseiging Constantinople themselves - you pick your enemies according to who is most likely to give you a leathering at any given point. The city was sacked in 1204 by the Fourth Crusade - admittedly, not entirely the Pope's fault, but certainly on his watch, and a surprising amount of the wealth taken from that sack is still sitting around in St. Peter's. Further, it's slightly telling that he argues that the Sura stating that there should be no compulsion in religion was written at a time when Islam was still in a position of weakness, and that further statements in favour of Holy War were added later, while not mentioning that Manuel II was writing his protestations against Islam at a time the he was actively seeking the support of other Christian (but not Orthodox) nations to push back the Turks. I call shenanigans, really.

In particular, I call shenanigans when, during his entire disquisition on why conversion by violence does not work, he does not at any point mention the forcible conversion of the New World by Roman Catholic envoys accompanying in particular Spanish forces, which strikes me as a far more telling example of this sort of business than the lengthy investment of Constantinople.

So, yes. If it weren't for Benedict's other displays of apparent hostility to Islam, this might be let go. As it is, it's starting to look like he is trying, in his limited remaining time on this Earth, to isolate the Vatican from interfaith discourse presumably to maintain its ideological purity.

And, from our low blows department, I can't help but feel that if you start off by joining the Hitler Youth (I know, I know, lots of people did, he was young, he didn't go to the meetings), then join the Wermacht (young, didn't have any choice, left as soon as possible, didn't go to meetings), then join the cocking Inquisition... well, it might not be so wise to start hating on Islam. There must be a sweet spot between "he's young, he's entitled to make mistakes" and "don't challenge Father Jack - he's old and set in his ways, and you'll just confuse and upset him".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:45 / 16.09.06
Oh, and for those who want to read it in context, the speech is transcripted here - he's drawing a line between the Hellenic rational tradition and Catholicism. The discussion of Islam, quote apart, is primarily about how it is irrational, as part of a broader discussion of whether the Hellenic rational tradition (ahem) is a stage in the development of Christian thought, or the ideal form of Christian thought (and by extension religious thought).
 
 
Olulabelle
13:59 / 16.09.06
Thank you for that link Haus.
 
 
Olulabelle
14:00 / 16.09.06
Ahhh - but it doesn't work. I cannot click it. Is there a transcript of the speech anywhere else that I can read?
 
 
nighthawk
14:02 / 16.09.06
Here.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
15:16 / 16.09.06
I can't help but feel that the speech should be considered in context; in two contexts, even; firstly, that, regardless of whether it was wise to include it at all - House is probably right to suggest the conquest of Latin America as being a more telling example -, Ratzi was at least at pains to say he was using it as an example, and secondly, before criticising the Pope too heavily for being a religious figure bent on stirring up hatred it might be wise to consider some of the proclamations coming out of Tehran, beside which his speech appears positively, uh, saintly, and about which far less furore has been raised.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:28 / 16.09.06
Actually, quite some furore is regularly directed at pronouncements from Tehran, but that's not really the point.

The point is that we (our press, our governments, our academics) routinely refer to Iran as an extremist-controlled nation - and not without some justification. Pointing at them and saying "their rhetoric is worse than ours" isn't really a way to police our attitudes. That should be a given if we're going to bleat about our tolerant natures and how it would be better if everyone could just get along.

After all, one way to put the Pope's statements 'in context' would be to chart our history of pillage, rape, and destruction across the Muslim world over the last few centuries... You can be sure someone will.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
15:49 / 16.09.06
Actually, quite some furore is regularly directed at pronouncements from Tehran, but that's not really the point.

Ah; I was thinking of the effigy-burning rallies and that, although I suspect our press loves to focus on the "extremist" reactions, and doesn't bring us news of the people across the Muslim world who couldn't give a toss what Popey says.

The point is that we (our press, our governments, our academics) routinely refer to Iran as an extremist-controlled nation - and not without some justification. Pointing at them and saying "their rhetoric is worse than ours" isn't really a way to police our attitudes. That should be a given if we're going to bleat about our tolerant natures and how it would be better if everyone could just get along.

I agree, broadly, although I think the Pope has the right to say what he likes; as the head of the Catholic Church he should probably exercise more responsibility, but there's a limit; there are some very touchy people out there and their complaint is deep hypocrisy.

After all, one way to put the Pope's statements 'in context' would be to chart our history of pillage, rape, and destruction across the Muslim world over the last few centuries... You can be sure someone will.

I'm sure they will, although I think the scores are pretty much even there on Christianity vs Islam, all in all; the expansion of Islam across North Africa and into Asia was every bit as unpleasant, if not considerably more so in places, than all that Crusading lark. I'd agree that the Catholic Church doesn't have much moral standing on the bloody-expansion-of-religion issue, though.

(edit)

I guess that last is a little unfair; Christianity and Islam have pretty much done equal back-and-froth conquering along the Constantinople - Jerusalem axis, but both the Islamic conquests of North Africa and Asia and the Catholic conquests of South America should be treated separately.
 
 
Slate
17:31 / 16.09.06
Great post Haus! It makes me wish I had looked at History a bit more seriously when I was younger.

I hope I am wrong here but I seriously believe that this is just the start of something bigger. I really don't believe that the Pope or the Vatican would pass this off as a flippant remark, which is the kind of vibe I am getting here from my very sporadic looks at western media in the last 3 days. I read that Chancellor Merkel is backing Pope Ratzinger, although half of me believges this is like throwing more fuel on the already burning effigy. Australian conservative Muslims are being made to feel they are part of the problem which just forces people into a corner. Where I am at the moment there have been Mosque bomb blasts and retribution killings between Muslim & Hindu's so I can't help thinking things are coming to a head. A head of what? More bloodshed and violence with each side trying to prove their side is better than the others. I am neither a Christian or Muslim myself, I just really don't like when people get killed in the name of a god, any god for that matter. As I said, I hope I am wrong.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
18:03 / 16.09.06
Burning effigies. Yes, well. We're not entirely innocent on that score in the UK... the Lewes Annual Bonfire tends to stir people up for some reason.

I also would accept that there is a Free Speech discussion here, but I don't see that there's any danger of the Pope being gagged (Lord knows, he's further inside the safe zone than Prince Phillip, and no one's managed to gag him... alas...)

It's a question of efficacy. He apparently intends to start a discussion about violence and faith - and it's a question which the Catholic Church probably is well-placed to engage with, in much the same way that we Brits know a thing or two about the perils and exigencies of Empire. This kind of snafu isn't really the best way to start. On the other hand, he was speaking in a profoundly academic context, and it is unkind to disconnect the quotation from that kind of safe arena.

Bah. Maybe it's a storm in a tea cup. All the arguments around it seem to be weak versions...
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
19:47 / 16.09.06
Burning effigies. Yes, well. We're not entirely innocent on that score in the UK... the Lewes Annual Bonfire tends to stir people up for some reason.

He was a loser, a no-good jerk,
His ideas - didn't work!

-Rosselson on Guy Fawkes

Oh aye, although burning an effigy of a centuries-dead pontiff is a little different to calling vehement demonstrations against a live one, or, indeed, anything anyone does which you feel has offended your religious sensibilities. But, yeah, still, fingers crossed the things in the news don't represent true opinion across the Islamic world, hmm?

(edit) On which note, 'cause I really don't know, can anyone recommend any good *spit* 'blogs from Persia or Pakistan way? (/edit)

I also would accept that there is a Free Speech discussion here, but I don't see that there's any danger of the Pope being gagged (Lord knows, he's further inside the safe zone than Prince Phillip, and no one's managed to gag him... alas...)

Oh, I'd love to see the Pope gagged, and possibly bound, unless Church policy on contraception has changed recently without my noticing. Which is possible, but, I fear, unlikely. But yeah; perhaps we should be burning him in effigy.
 
 
alas
21:12 / 16.09.06
On the other hand, he was speaking in a profoundly academic context, and it is unkind to disconnect the quotation from that kind of safe arena.

As an academic, this point doesn't work for me. It should be noted that, on your side, the pontiff opens his lecture by painting a picture of his safe, 1950s academic ivory tower that is warm and rosy with nostalgia, a calm sea of collective striving, "working in everything on the basis of a single rationality with its various aspects..."

(Just an aside, Hmmm...how many women do you s'pose were on the theological faculties at the University of Bonn back in those halcyon days? How varied do you suspect the backgrounds of all those earnest young 1950s West German theologians were? As someone coming from a working class background, I can't tell you how much the smugness of that opening bothers me.)

But while I kind of recognize that cozy academy from the nostalgic remarks of people like Allan Bloom (whom I respect, although I often radically disagree with) and more right-wing commentators whose views are less defensible, that's not the academy that I am struggling for, and not one that I would defend--not that it would ever have let a plebe like me in.

The Pope's 1950s European University, apparently, was, at least in his memory, one that kept its students and faculty safely from the storms of the life going on outside, one where a rational, trained man--trained by rational trained men--could safely go forward knowing that the basis of his study will be "accepted without question." So he and his cronies could converse with like-minded fellows about "reason" and "God," safely assured that no one outside their walls had anything to teach them about such concepts.

(Which is not to say that everything said outside those walls should have equal intellectual standing. For example, I am largely sympathetic with a basic part of his claim that arguments that don't ground themselves in some form of empiricism and mathematics cannot be taken as "science" simply because they give themselves that name. Other things that he goes on to state in relation to this argument I am more sceptical of.)

And so, how glad he is to be back again in Regensburg, where it is somehow his birthright to be safely insulated from the grubby hoards...Where, rather than, say, quoting from Bartolome de Las Casas, who had plenty to say about violence and conversion; who in fact made essentially the same point as the anti-Islamic emporer quoted so fondly by His Lordship (and, note, Ben XVI doesn't make even a passing acknowledgement of the statement as problematic, which is something that any academic I know worth his/her salt would do), but did it in the context of the Church's sanctioning of genocide in the Americas. (see excerpt below)

Words spoken, claims made in the academic context that I would defend are perhaps those that are and should be open to the most serious critique imaginable. And, frankly, having read them myself, in many ways I don't really think these words really were taken out of context: even had B XVI wanted to use the argument that followed, against conversion by force, there is no real reason to quote at best "neutrally," i.e., without any apology, words that represent such a gross distortion of an important historical figure, Mohammed--particularly at this moment in history--and then to go on to quote this same emporer so favorably on the subject of conversion by force.

That is irresponsible argumentation in a site that is supposed to be devoted, in the Pontiff's own vision, to "rationality," "reason," "genuine enlightenment," and in fact "ethics."

-----
Here's a key passage from the article I've linked to on de las Casas, that lays out pretty clearly his arguments, which run fairly parallel to the one quoted by the Holy Father, but which take as their target his own church, not someone else's:

Las Casas interrupted his work on History of the Indies to send three letters to the Council of the Indies in Madrid, in order to accuse the encomienda system and the encomenderos of the sin of oppressing the natives. Las Casas was convinced that the only way to convert the Indians was to use peaceful evangelization. He set out his ideas in his work Concerning the Only Way of Drawing All Peoples to the True Religion. In this work, Bartolomé criticizes the view of his opponents, who believe that “it would be quicker and better done if they subjected pagans willy-nilly to Christian political power. Once the pagans were beaten, they could be preached to without trouble.”19 Las Casas totally disagrees with this concept of using war and violence in order to indoctrinate the Indians. Bartolomé firmly believed that this method violated the Indian’s right to life and liberty that they deserved as the sons of God. Furthermore, he does not view peaceful evangelization as merely the best way of preaching the Christian faith, but as the only way to do so.20 Even though this sounds obvious to us to today, we must remember that Las Casas’ views challenged and opposed the general beliefs of his century. In his Carta al Consejo de Indias (Letter to the Council of the Indies), which was written before The Only Way, Las Casas recalls what Christ commanded his successors to do relating to the preaching of the Christian doctrine:

Make the gift of his peace, do good to all, and, with the sweetness of their virtues and good works, give freely of what they had freely received, endeavoring to exert an attraction—as our forebears were attracted to good works by peace and love. 21

Las Casas is recalling Christ’s message in order to set an example of how he thinks evangelization should be. The passage makes it clear that Jesus wanted peaceful and loving evangelization, and Las Casas was determined to achieve this. He later says in The Only Way that Jesus was clear when he taught that humans should be good to all, especially to those individuals in greatest need. After all, the image of a peaceful evangelization is in total unity with our image of God as the “Father of mercies.”22
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:57 / 16.09.06
Yeah, alas, but all that TLDR stuff aside, Kay makes a very good point. I mean, I don't know about you, but I'm sick of our media portraying Iran as a haven of sensible and sensitive administration and a blueprint for all civilised societies to follow, and the way that George Bush just falls into line with that with his sycophantic praise of the Ayatollah just makes me sick.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
01:00 / 17.09.06
Er, Haus, what do you mean? Our media portray Iran as full of crazy fundies, which is why I sincerely hope that the media portrayal is inaccurate.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:35 / 17.09.06
Well, Kay, I thought I was talking about this statement:

secondly, before criticising the Pope too heavily for being a religious figure bent on stirring up hatred it might be wise to consider some of the proclamations coming out of Tehran, beside which his speech appears positively, uh, saintly, and about which far less furore has been raised.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:25 / 17.09.06
Sheesh. With subtlety like that at your fingertips, you should be Pope, mate.

Looking at this this morning, my real worry is that his Papishness actually believes that Islam is a violent faith and Christianity isn't, and that this was in some way the start of a Socratic process in which he would bare this awkward truth.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
08:45 / 17.09.06
I'm still not sure I follow H. While our media do indeed slam Tehran each time Ahmadinejad calls for the eradication of Israel, we do not - so far as I know - see a massed wave of popular protest, which is what the media are telling us is happening with reference to the Pope's comments. I hope that the media are distorting the reaction out of proportion. I can quite believe that they'd prefer a "crazy fundies burn Pope" storyline to a "Pope largely ignored" one.

Personally speaking, the Emperor's quote seems awfully binary; certainly a case could be made for Mohammed, peace be with him, leaving a legacy of mixed blessings, but to deny that he, or Islam in general, have worked any good is absurd, although as I believe H. said, perhaps understandable coming from the dying days of the Byzantine empire. Perhaps the Pope believed that the absurdity would be so manifestly obvious that noone would credit him with endorsing it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:24 / 17.09.06
To take your second point first, it's worth reading the rest of the speech, Kay. The point is the antithesis between the Western rational religious tradition, which does not convert by violence, and the irrational Islamic religious tradition, which does. As mentioned, one very major problem with this is that it is bollocks - or, more precisely, one might certainly credit the Eastern Orthodox Church, to which Manuel II belonged, with a tradition of not converting through compulsion, but one cannot, unless one has done quite a lot of crack, credit the Roman Catholic Church with the same tradition.

So, that.

To take your first point - well. There are so many differential factors here that I'm not really sure where one starts. 1) Ahmadinejahed is not the spiritual leader of a world church. 2) The call for the destruction of Israel is a) very familiar and b) about as realistic as ever, and c) refers to a matter of Middle Eastern geopolitics rather than to an entire faith. 3) Not only do people express dissent differently in different cultures, they are also either limited or compelled in the way they express dissent. There's some stuff in the Islamophobia thread in this forum which touches on this. So, I don't think that pointing at Ahmadinejahed and saying "But when he says bad things about Israel, _we_ don't riot" is an accurate comparison, and since there is no supreme authority for the largest single Islamic church, it's hard to gauge reactions to such a notional entity quoting Mehmed II calling Jesus a nob.

So. Things the Pope feels Islamic leaders should be doing which they are not:

1) Speaking out more strongly against terrorism.
2) Pushing for Christian worship to be allowed across the Islamic world
3) Pushing for Christians to be free to proselytise across the Islamic world.

Benedict XVI is not interested as much in inter-faith dialogue as he is in an exchange of inter-faith powers - the buzzphrase is "reciprocity", which on one level is pretty reasonable. He wants Islam's tanks off his lawn, in effect, before he resumes the process of inter-faith dialogue, and he sees that as being manifested by the Islamic states giving Christians the same rights that Muslims have in the Christian world, as he sees it - freedom to worship and freedom to recruit. However, he doesn't actually have an awful lot to offer the other way - he must know that he won't get (3), (2) is achievable in some but not all Islamic nations and (1) would involve the religious leaders accepping a link between muslims committing terror and Islamic faith being connected to terror, which has to be negotiated very, very carefully. And to what end? European and North American Roman Catholics tend to ignore Papal proclamations they don't like, and South America is pretty light on Muslims, comparatively, as far as I know (needs checking) (EDIT - checked. Numbers appear to be estimated at something around four million, but there are reports of enthusiastic evangelism, so perhaps this is a potential battleground for the faiths, after all). So, Africa is the only real point where this might be relevant (EDIT - see comments on Latin America. It's outwith the reach of this discussion, but religious volatility I would probably generally link to social and economic vulnerability, so there may be a message for the Catholic church there - back to Liberation Theology, anyone?).

Meanwhile, back at the ranch - John Paul II created the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, and when he did so appointed an expert on Islam to head it up. The incumbent when Benedict ascended was Michael Fitzgerald, also an expert on Islam. He was expected to move further up the chain of command in Rome, but has instead been sent out of the centre of power to Egypt. I'm not sure this counts as a promotion.
 
 
Axolotl
16:40 / 17.09.06
Interestingly I've read that JP2, like the US, viewed Islam as a potential ally in the fight against communism, which is one reason why the Church made a greater effort to get along with muslims under his papacy.
Benedict hasn't got that same motivation, and therefore, as Haus points out, seems more concerned in pressing their religous authorities for greater rights for catholics.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:38 / 17.09.06
Admittedly I haven't seen a lot of news over this weekend but before that I was under the distinct impression that any demonstrations around the world were extremely minor (I believe that several days ago the Beeb were reporting that a demo in either Iran or Saudi Arabia numbered in the tens rather than the thousands) and being reported on because 'hey, they've got dark-skin!' rather than because there was massive pillaging action happening. I also noticed that it wasn't big media news that Iran's holocaust cartoon exhibition was a total bust. So, did the Middle East burn down yesterday evening while I was tapping my feet in Trafalgar Square, or is this more the West's sensitivity to Fundamentalist Islam's sensitivity, and taking the opportunity to give a sly kick to an ex-Nazi fundamentalist who has directed policy towards protecting Catholic clergy who like to fiddle with children?
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:15 / 17.09.06
Speaking as a Catholic, this whole mess really made m emiss the old Pope (you know, the really real Pope). Good old JP2 would never do or say something that stupid*.

I know this is not much of a contribution for the debate, but, as a Catholic, I felt I had to say it.

* being human and, thus, imperfect, JP2 could have done better in some issues (namely, the position of the Curch on birth control and condoms, and gay issues), but he did started a very good, and much past due, mea culpa process for the Catholic Curhc past sins that really needs to go on a little longer. And, man!, he was so much closer to actual sainthood than B16...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:19 / 17.09.06
New thread, I think.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
06:57 / 18.09.06
New thread.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:21 / 18.09.06
From the media it does seem that the only people still protesting are those hardliners that protest anyway, the ones that daily call for the West to be overthrown, hardly a crisis.

(Amusingly, Fox News's 'fair and balanced opinion' is that Pope Benedict should apologise for saying that, then all Muslims everywhere should apologise for everything Muslims have ever done, ever. Sometimes you've got to love people who bring in the crazy so well. If only they were honest enough to market themselves as a 24 hour comedy channel.)
 
 
Slate
00:17 / 24.09.06
The protests are still going, this might be old news but I have been out of the loop for a bit. I was quite shocked to read that the Turkish government wants to arrest the Pope when he lands! I am shocked at this as I have spent 8 months working in the country and thought I had a bit of a grasp on the political pulse there... I was constantly hearing rumours from the more liberal Turks that Attaturk would not be happy about the current things with the current Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan though. He is bringing the church back into the state which goes against the countries recent history. It will be an interesting trip.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:42 / 24.09.06
SR - It sounds from that report as if some government employees petitioned the Justice Ministry to arrest the Pope on his arrival, but that the JM is not likely to take it any further.
 
 
Panic
22:38 / 24.09.06
SPOILERS



Ratzinger, knowing he will never be as loved as JPII, manages to goad frothy-mouthed extremists into making him the first Christian martyr in like, a thousand years.


And Buddy becomes the new Dr Fate, not Ralph.


END SPOILERS
 
 
Axolotl
18:07 / 25.09.06
Panic: Nice post but while I know it wasn't meant entirely seriously, for accuracy's sake I have to point out it wouldn't make him the first christian martyr in a millennium. If you're considering martyrs as officialy recognised by the Catholic church you have St. Maximillian Kolbe who gave his life for another prisoner in Auschwitz, and Oscar Romero who was assassinated for his defense of human rights in El Salvador.
Outside of those officially recognised by the Catholic church I'd say Dr Martin Luther King probably qualifies.
This hasn't really erupted into the shit-storm I was expecting, though it has been an interesting glimpse into the mindset of Benny XVI.
 
 
grant
14:56 / 26.09.06
Yeah, I'm really reading him now more as a kind of starry-eyed academic who's a little divorced from the implications of his idealized statements.

"No, really. I didn't mean it that way. I was merely referencing...x."

Dangerous quality in a pope, I guess (but some folks felt the same about JPII's ecumenicism).
 
 
Mistoffelees
15:27 / 03.10.06
On the news right now:
Two men from Turkey protest against the coming visit of the pope in Turkey. They protest by hijacking a plane flying to Turkey. Italian jets have forced them to land in Italy. The chief of the airline reported, there have been no casualties so far.

I really don´t see, how such an act can do anything but alienate muslims and non-muslims further. What were the kidnappers thinking, they could achieve by this crime?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:13 / 03.10.06
Revolution isn't primarily about what you think. It's about rejecting what you experience.
 
 
Quantum
18:04 / 03.10.06
Did we ever find out if the nun in Somalia (and her bodyguard) getting shot dead was retaliation?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:39 / 03.10.06
I'm fascinated by this idea, Grant. How exactly do you feel that such an unworldly, starry-eyed innocent progressed through the cursus honorum of one of the oldest and most sophisticated bureacracies in history? Was it dumb luck, or do wiser and more politically aware heads seek to advance this unworldly academic to their Church's highest office?
 
  

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