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Identity. Uh. What is it GOOD for? (Say it again!)

 
  

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*
22:32 / 05.09.06
So, identity. As in, "I identify as..." As in, "identity politics." As in, sexual identity, racial identity, gender identity, food politics identity, class identity, political identity, national identity, religious identity. These things have often been lumped together under the rubric of "just labels." To an extent, that observation— while facile— is true. I suspect that every single person who shares an "identity" experiences that supposedly shared characteristic differently. What does it gain us to lump ourselves together under these labels? In some cases, it gets us oppressed, disenfranchised, disempowered, targeted, legislated against, manipulated, advertised to, controlled.

If that's the case, surely the thing to do is throw over all the labels. But still they stick around, so they must have some use to the people who use them.

On one level, I call myself "man" because it gets me access to the kind of treatment I want. I want to move in the world as a man, and that's not yet possible for people who aren't labeled "man," so I assume that label— even though "entity" is probably a better fit. I also feel better about myself and the world because I am changing the meaning of the identity "man" by being myself within it.

On one level, I call myself "queer" because I acknowledge that my sexual behavior creates a situation where I can be disempowered relative to people who are called straight, and it seems useful to me to try to change this. It seems necessary to work together with others who also experience that in one form or another, and it makes it easier to find each other if we have a label. The fact that it makes it easier for the rest of the world to find us is known and acknowledged.

On one level, I call myself "white" because I understand that I am seen as white by most of society, and that this categorization confers upon me certain privileges which it would be irresponsible not to acknowledge. I know that having that privilege all my life has shaped my habits of thinking and my perspectives. I wear the identity "white" as a reminder to myself and an acknowledgement to others— even though I think that of all the social fictions that ever did fic, "white" is one that has done the most harm.

That's three identities and three different kinds of reasons for keeping them. How about some of yours?
 
 
Triumvir
22:48 / 05.09.06
We need identities for the simple reason that without them, we'd all be the same. Its the fact that we are all different, that we all have seperate and unique identities, that makes our society an interesting place to live in.
 
 
*
02:11 / 06.09.06
Not quite what I was going for, Triumvir, but thanks.
 
 
MacDara
14:41 / 06.09.06
What does it gain us to lump ourselves together under these labels? In some cases, it gets us oppressed, disenfranchised, disempowered, targeted, legislated against, manipulated, advertised to, controlled.

But within your particular 'identity group', for lack of a better term, it gets you the opposite!

That, to me, is the whole point of assumed identities -- to belong or interact with others who share your inclinations/whatever in a structured intercommunicative environment. This is distinct from one's identity in terms of the 'self', because even though we are all latently being towards others, we are fundamentally being for ourselves.

Or something like that, anyway.
 
 
Slate
15:01 / 06.09.06
It's all a bit existential id. I need to break it down a bit before I offer my own.

Do you mean it as in a retrospective representational way of comparing yourself to an onion with many layers, levels, like everyone else but trying to see yourself as slightly different and unique because ultimately you are, you just have to connect the right strategic events in your life to verify this.

Labels do facilitate the immediate understanding of a thought process, a meme, a preconception no? It is the immediate ease of it, the sweet convenience which we are all so accustomed to. Labels are human nature IMO.

Identities are linked to the ego, and I would say human nature will follow, to emulate, to build up these molehills gladly, these lumps of sameness to make us feel safe & included, the gamut of the human herd instinct.

When I say retrospective, I mean it in the sense of which came first, the action or the identity? To have an identity, there must be a pattern of behaviour to identify with, some semblance of likeness to compare. The comparisons coming from different perspectives within a set populace do differ subtly but en mass can merge to form a sub-culture. These and slightly differing culture's next to them will merge on the fringes as they all do and like iron filings near a magnet line up in position, rank unimportant in the beginning, just find the position you are on and be comfortable in it. After time the sorting of rank and file begins from within, again human nature, and when the identity base becomes established, based on your own premises, after time pressure from more external groups of other sub-cultures will want to impose their own rank and file, so yes, what does it gain us. It gains us the comfort of the solidarity of your own herd, at the same time paradoxically, the struggle to assert individuality on these many levels within the sub-culture, and also at the same time in a greater way, outside our own sub-culture, which we need to do to define our own selves. To make our own niche, which is imperative for the ego to survive...

So it's kind of like the layers of a 4 dimentional onion, the 4th dimention being the time factor. Layers of thoughtforms and memes spread out over time to include the others, in your identity group regardless of when and where they were, 8th century BC or now.

OK, without waiting for clarification, as I don't know if there is one forthcoming, I would say it is all too human to have identity. Abuses and uses are just a fact of life, like breathing, a slot, a pigeon hole, a place... Our quasi binary construct if you will. I will offer a couple of my own.

Explorer: I like doing things that other people don't do or are afraid to do. Some say this makes me brave, a risk taker or just plain stupid. I think yes, it is a mixture of all 3. That is all I want to share with you.

Strange: I had to include this, everyone has been calling me weird forever. My functionary logic confuses most and it gets a bit metaphysical after delving past the usual observations and pithy quotes. The casual observer would say "conspiracy theorist" but no, I don't think anything is behind it, it just is.

Alien: I have been accused of coming from another planet, in all seriousness. I was at a Mufon UFO conference in 96 and was made to be a spectacle along with my girlfriend at the time. I did kinda gravitate towards this identity being an impressionable 23 year old and it has had a reoccuring effect on me ever since, it has made my travels alot easier on the parts of me that want to remain comfortable within my own assumed identity.
 
 
nighthawk
16:04 / 06.09.06
What does it gain us to lump ourselves together under these labels? In some cases, it gets us oppressed, disenfranchised, disempowered, targeted, legislated against, manipulated, advertised to, controlled.

Are you asking why humans have identities in the first place, or why individuals persist in using them? Taking the above quote, its not really true that people adopt an identity that then leads to oppression. So when is it useful to embrace, undermine or reject an identity?
 
 
the permuted man
20:32 / 06.09.06
Hmm...I want identity to mean how I perceive myself but it seems like it means how most others perceive me?

We need identities for the simple reason that without them, we'd all be the same

There's something circular about this, but I'm very bad at expressing myself clearly. Without taxonomy are all flora and fauna the same? Or, are we saying, all plants and animals *ARE* the same, until they know better?
 
 
*
21:31 / 06.09.06
Explorer: I like doing things that other people don't do or are afraid to do. Some say this makes me brave, a risk taker or just plain stupid. I think yes, it is a mixture of all 3. That is all I want to share with you.

Strange: I had to include this, everyone has been calling me weird forever. My functionary logic confuses most and it gets a bit metaphysical after delving past the usual observations and pithy quotes. The casual observer would say "conspiracy theorist" but no, I don't think anything is behind it, it just is.

Alien: I have been accused of coming from another planet, in all seriousness. I was at a Mufon UFO conference in 96 and was made to be a spectacle along with my girlfriend at the time. I did kinda gravitate towards this identity being an impressionable 23 year old and it has had a reoccuring effect on me ever since, it has made my travels alot easier on the parts of me that want to remain comfortable within my own assumed identity.


Are these not elaborations of each other, each one a version of the last that is a bit more extreme?

Labels do facilitate the immediate understanding of a thought process, a meme, a preconception no?

Do you mean understanding, or categorization, or a similar concept? I agree that it allows one to stop thinking about some aspect of one's self— for example, if you see that some facets of your persona are considered very weird by many others, you could understand them by thinking about what they probably expect of you and why you manifest differently. Or you could accept the label "weird" and make it part of your identity, and not engage in such exhaustive self-critique.

To have an identity, there must be a pattern of behaviour to identify with, some semblance of likeness to compare.

Hmm. Ganesh has said something like this in talking about transness— that it's one thing to identify as a man when one has not previously been categorized as a man, because presumably one has experience of men and some idea of what makes a "man." It's quite another to identify as a half-dragon squirrelbeast owl-bear hybrid, because it is unlikely that one has ever met one, so there will not be an opportunity to compare oneself with them. Does that connect with what you've said here?

So it's kind of like the layers of a 4 dimentional onion, the 4th dimention being the time factor.

I have no idea what function this analogy is meant to serve.

Are you asking why humans have identities in the first place, or why individuals persist in using them?

I'm talking about social identities— the labels we use to define parts of ourselves relative to others, as opposed to the unique and special snowflakosity that makes me me and you you. So I'm talking about why individuals, groups, and society as a whole persists in using these labels— they must serve a function, and I want to examine what functions they serve and determine whether the oft-advanced suggestion "We should just get rid of all the labels!" has any merit.

its not really true that people adopt an identity that then leads to oppression.

Never? Or not always? Happy to hear more from you about this.

So when is it useful to embrace, undermine or reject an identity?

Just what I'd like to hear your thoughts on.
 
 
nighthawk
22:11 / 06.09.06
OK thanks for clarifying, I'll try to post to this tommorrow. Just quickly though:

Never? Or not always? Happy to hear more from you about this

I can't think of any examples where by adopting a collective label a group cause themselves to be "oppressed, disenfranchised, disempowered, targeted, legislated against...[or] controlled", rather than focusing an existing situation. ("manipulated, advertised to" seem a little different, which was why I left them out.)

Please do correct me if I'm making some glaring omission here?
 
 
semioticrobotic
00:55 / 07.09.06
Sorry to loop so far back up the conversation, but I'm interested in this:

That, to me, is the whole point of assumed identities -- to belong or interact with others who share your inclinations/whatever in a structured intercommunicative environment. This is distinct from one's identity in terms of the 'self', because even though we are all latently being towards others, we are fundamentally being for ourselves.

I prefer to think we are fundamentally being toward others while latently being for ourselves, if the Self manifests and becomes knowable only by our intending toward Other. Or, put another way: inasmuch as the Self is knowable only through interaction, is identity negotiated in the space between?
 
 
*
02:00 / 07.09.06
nh: No, but individuals adopting the identity of an oppressed group may then take on oppression that they weren't subject to before, which is more what I was getting at.
 
 
Slate
09:26 / 07.09.06
Are these not elaborations of each other, each one a version of the last that is a bit more extreme?

Maybe the Strange & Alien id are similar, but I think the explorer id fits as singular and seperate. I knew these were not great examples, just the first ones that some to mind. On more contemplation, I am finding it hard to analyse what common identity sets I gravitate toward? I may be looking too hard at it perhaps? Your 3 ID, as in "white" "man" and "queer" are fine, and although I do not identify as "queer" I definately am a white male, I just want to look beyond the obvious. Am I trying too hard here? So when I say that I accept "Strange" as an id, it has been one given to me by others, I don't go out and out to be strange, neither do I do what other expect of me, I just am and if the glove fits, I wear it.

Do you mean understanding, or categorization, or a similar concept?

Yes exactly and to elaborate, I mean labels in a broader sense, not just with reference to a persons assumed identity, but for everything that is subjective to the individual, like art, music & food for example. If many people slot something tangible as X, then X becomes the label that assumptions and preconceptions are based on in the wider community. And I really believe people use labels for convenience sake. It's easy, simple and usually gets the point across without spending alot of time fully explaining the myriad of details that are usually incurred when portraying a group of people who share common traits.

On the patterns of behaviour comment, I think it boils down to which came first, the self identity or the common pool of behaviour that allows the assumed label to exist. All of us have parameters we live by and there needs to be a clear understanding that there is a difference between self identified labels and ones given to us by those witnessing our actions. This is where my confusion lies.

yeah, the onion, an appalling analogy & I apologise. But I will try to explain. We exist(center of the onion) and we have many levels, id's, as you say(rings of onion) so this forms the 3D aspect. the 4th dimention being time, where we can identify with others who fit your id criteria have lived before us, like our heroes we identify with, movie stars etc. It was meant to illustrate that the identities we identify with are external and not influenced by locality. Maybe this analogy is not general enough?

They have to be external if you are talking social identities, as the whole delegates to the individual. Again I would say labels are a part of the human condition, the herd instinct to conglomerate towards each other. Safety in numbers tc. If we did away with all labels, I reckon confusion and mis-interpretation would ensue resulting in a mess.

I would also say that adopting an identity that leads to oppression does exist, as IMO the individual would find the risks of being with a safe group, the self identified group, better than remaining an individual. If oppression was inevitable, wouldn't the individual be oppressed regardless of the group he/she was in as ther choice to identify wih a group would happen before joining the group.

You would faced with a real hard task of eradicating labels, get rid of one, and the communication lazy-bone in us will make up another, don't you think?

So when is it useful to embrace, undermine or reject an identity?

It would depend entirely on what situation you find yourself in. Also most individuals have goals & aspirations which then on a group level manifests as a movement, ie. Religion. Undermining of these groups have been going on since we stood upright.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:35 / 07.09.06
Is it not largely a priviledge of heterosexual white men to think that people who identity as part of a group that is not heterosexual white men would do better to shed their "labels" and become "individuals"?
 
 
Ron Stoppable
15:07 / 07.09.06
Is it not largely a priviledge of heterosexual white men to think that people who identity as part of a group that is not heterosexual white men would do better to shed their "labels" and become "individuals"?

I think Flyboy has hit upon a central issue here (though, of course, I may have missed the point in which case, apologies for the rot) and that it's a case of language letting us down. The suggestion that identity is based around a series of labels and that the shedding of such would allow us to become indiviuals is, I think, a language problem:

Intuitively, I don't see how the one rules out the other. When we examine some of the examples of "identity" presented; colour, gender, orientation; these are largely substantive and as such, easily allow the application of "labels" in description. Looking at Suitcase Rider's; Explorer and my own immediate thoughts - i was going with Open-Minded, Principled (yeh, talk yourself up, Jodrell) we come across the notion of Personality traits as representing identity.

This has consequences when considering whether these identifiers are placed upon us externally or whether they're self-defined. Now, if we're to make a distinction between these two types of identifier, then we need new words for them. Alternatively, I like the idea that they all represent parts of the existential 'Us' - which to my mind is the definition of the subject: "Identity."

Id, sorry if I've skipped happily down the wrong path on this one. If you were talking about Identity as how we are perceived by others and placed in socio-demographic groups, then the above reads like garbage - didn't mean to clutter up an interesting thread with irrelevant tangents.
 
 
MacDara
16:57 / 07.09.06
I prefer to think we are fundamentally being toward others while latently being for ourselves, if the Self manifests and becomes knowable only by our intending toward Other. Or, put another way: inasmuch as the Self is knowable only through interaction, is identity negotiated in the space between?

Well I'm an introvert, which might explain my perspective; I don't believe that I only know myself because I'm defined as an individual in relation to other individuals, or interactions with them, or even the Sartrean 'Other'. That's not to argue against the fact that we are as beings inherently intercommunicative -- but I'm not convinced that our identities are only defined by contrast, or that we are 'something' merely by virtue of not being 'something else'.
 
 
*
05:12 / 08.09.06
Is it not largely a priviledge of heterosexual white men to think that people who identity as part of a group that is not heterosexual white men would do better to shed their "labels" and become "individuals"?

That's generally been my experience— or they dismiss identity as "merely politics," as if that renders identities meaningless. Why do you think that could be? I mean, clearly white hetero men benefit from their community identity as white hetero men, right? Don't they also benefit from having Others neatly labeled for their convenience?
 
 
nighthawk
10:19 / 08.09.06
Is it not largely a priviledge of heterosexual white men to think that people who identity as part of a group that is not heterosexual white men would do better to shed their "labels" and become "individuals"?

That's generally been my experience— or they dismiss identity as "merely politics," as if that renders identities meaningless. Why do you think that could be? I mean, clearly white hetero men benefit from their community identity as white hetero men, right? Don't they also benefit from having Others neatly labeled for their convenience?


This is sort of what I wanted to say. I don't invest much at all in the labels that obviously apply to me. In fact they seem purely functional for the most part. But I don't fool myself into beleiving that's anything but privelege in action.

So I guess because w/h/m experience their own 'identity' as something basically functional and generally unimportant - it doesn't really affect what they can do, where they can go, how people will treat them (so far as they can see) - it might be difficult why someone else might place so much importance on something that is 'just a label'.
 
 
grant
13:23 / 08.09.06
I've just read this thread for the first time, and I think Fly/Car's observation dovetails with my first reaction.

It was to this:

On one level, I call myself "white" because I understand that I am seen as white by most of society, and that this categorization confers upon me certain privileges which it would be irresponsible not to acknowledge. I know that having that privilege all my life has shaped my habits of thinking and my perspectives. I wear the identity "white" as a reminder to myself and an acknowledgement to others— even though I think that of all the social fictions that ever did fic, "white" is one that has done the most harm.

My response is: Do you have a choice? What would having a choice in this matter look like? In other words, what would a hypothetical you be like who did not "wear the identity 'white'"?
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:47 / 09.09.06
Looking at the world through the lense of identity misses the actual experience of life, to self identify to particulars as if identity has essence is not only very limiting but can lead to all sorts of delusions.

A society that needs to record information to catalogue individuals needs broad identity catagories to do so, to see only the identity and the signifying social associations misses the life experience of the person involved.

Life experience changes and this may effect how people identify within a matter of days, identifiers are not a permanent fixture, identifiers are at best transitional functioning signifiers for current relationships held to perception of self.

Skin colour may be changed, gender may be changed, sexuality may be changed, Identity that is appearence based is in constant social transitions as individuals make choices about there own self relationship, As the body becomes a more maleable template for change and artistic temporality and as technological expression in this area becomes more precise, when and where does the identity become a fixed quantity? Or does it remain a qualitative expression of self and social relationship organised through self perception, interaction and attachment to transitional values of appearence, behaviour and social perception.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:11 / 09.09.06
For example my own sexual/love experience of life. i have over a period of 18 years had relationships with both men and women, been in love with men and women and a transexual, half way through the process of male to female.

At various times i would of defined as hetero, homo, bi or pansexual. These identifiers dont describe my life experience very accurately on there own, should i subscribe to all of them for truthes sake, that could be very confusing to people i communicate with.

I have settled for the idea that i am sexual. does my identity need to be contained in one of the above identifiers, not really and in a sense i would be lying to my own experience to do so. What advantage is there in defining sexuality to a certain type? none that i can see, i can see the advantage to a social network especially if that society thrives on conflict through percieved difference.
 
 
nighthawk
13:28 / 09.09.06
Looking at the world through the lense of identity misses the actual experience of life, to self identify to particulars as if identity has essence is not only very limiting but can lead to all sorts of delusions.

I think this is exactly what people are challenging in this thread though. If you experience your 'identity' as something purely functional, an irrelevant convenience, then its easy to insist that the real you exceeds all these categories in its irrepressible fluidity.

But if you experience your 'identity' as a concrete limitation on what you can do, where you can go, etc., then its not so clear that the real you is being hidden under a static and sterile label that's exceeded its usefulness. Here 'identity' isn't just a convenience or illusion, its a constant fact of your experience. Not that that is any less true of our w/h/m, but its certainly less immediately apparent in their case.

And if that is how one experiences identity, then the idea of 'abandoning' it, as one might abandon a walking stick one never really needed, is fairly meaningless.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:52 / 09.09.06
Another angle of approach i take is pluralism in identity, so none of the signifiers of experiential identity are held to be the essential truth. I dont know if this is true of everybody but i have a collection of selves that it could be argued represent different phases or experiences from my life, i would guess that some of them are survival strategies and others are reactions to trauma, some are formulated from early childhood experience and others from peer associations etc. Am i truely to identify one of these as being somehow more real than another, i dont think thats possible. They can all be taken as real in a certain sense, is one of them the real me? the one true god?

Fluidity in body and mind and the associated technologies i see as tools of liberation from fixed narrow experiences of self. I think societies have an intrest in forming group identities for people under certain banners because control becomes much easier when people feel that others that identify like themselves are doing what is suggested to them as well. Hence the uniformity in culture has shifted from an outward expression of identity (although that still plays an important part)to a more internally consistent flourishing of identity gathered around issues waving like conceptual flags in consciousness.

i think it is apparent to all who identify with anything at any given time, that that identification can become a limit to the freedom one has of the experience of life. Its when you change your point of identity that that limitation becomes known and then you are just waiting to find the new restriction in how you may concieve of yourself at the present, so again you can change
 
 
alas
02:07 / 11.09.06
I wanted to really think through this passage in Judith Halberstam's recent book In a Queer Time and Place, so I typed out copious quotations as I was reading. She first quotes Emily Martin, who says in her book Flexible Bodies (1995) that flexibility is a “taken-for-granted virtue”: “Flexibility has also become a powerful commodity, something scarce and highly valued, that can be used to discriminate against some people” (xvii). And Aiwha Ong, she quotes also: “the contemporary interest in flexible genders, from talk shows to blockbuster movies, may also be a part of the conceptualization of a new global elite” (Flexible Citizenship, Duke UP).

Halberstam riffs:
“Because bodily flexibility has become both a commodity (in the case of cosmetic surgeries, for example) and a form of commodification, it is not enough in this ‘age of flexibility’ to celebrate gender flexibility as simply another sign of progress and liberation. Promoting flexibility at the level of identity and personal choices may sound like a postmodern or even a queer program for social change. But it as easily describes the advertising strategies of huge corporations like the Gap, who sell their products by casating their consumers as simultaneously all the same and all different. Indeed, the new popularity of ‘stretch’ fabrics accommodates precisely this model of bodily fluidity by creating apparel that can stretch to meet the demands of the unique and individual body that fills it. Advertising by other companies, like Dr Pepper, whose ads exhort the consumer to ‘be you!’ and who sell transgression as individualism, also play with what could be called a ‘bad’ reading of postmodern gender. Postmodern gender theory has largely been (wrongly) interpreted as both a description of and a call for greater degrees of flexibility and fluidity.

Many young gays and lesbians think of themselves as part of a ‘post-gender’ world and for them the idea of ‘labeling’ becomes a sign of oppression they have happily cast off in order to move into a pluralistic world of infinite diversity. In other words, it has become commonplace and even clichéd for young, urban (white) gays and lesbians to claim that they do not like ‘labels’ and do not want to be ‘pigeon-holed’ by identity categories, even as those same identity categories represent the activist labors of previous generations that brought us to the brink of ‘liberation’ in the first place. Many urban gays and lesbians of different age groups also express a humanistic sense that their uniqueness cannot be captured by the application of a blanket term. The emergence of this liberal, indeed neo-liberal, notion of ‘uniqueness as radical style’ in hip queer urban settings must be considered alongside the transmutations of capitalism in late postmodernity. As Lisa Duggan claims: ‘new neoliberal sexual politics…might be termed the new homonormativity—it is a politics that does not contest dominant heteronormative assumptions and institutions, but upholds and sustains them, while promising the possibility of a semoblized gay constituency and a privatized, depoliticized gay culture anchored in domesticity and consumption’ (Duggan 2003).” [that's Lisa Duggan, The Twilight of Equality. Beacon 2003)]

“Increased flexibility, as we now know, leads to increased opportunities for the exploitation by transnational corporations of cheap labor markets in Third World nations and in immigrant communities in the First World. The local and inter-subjective forms of flexibility may be said to contribute to what Anna Tsin calls the ‘charisma of globalization’ by incorporating a seemingly radical ethic of flexibility into understandings of self-hood. In queer communities, what I will define as ‘transgressive exceptionalism’ can be seen as a by-product of local translations of neo-liberalism.”
 
 
Disco is My Class War
03:18 / 11.09.06
alas, I really like this Halberstam quote, and am also a fan of Ong and Lisa Duggan, but I'm also having this "Hang on a second...." response.

I don't think it's flexibility itself which is the problem here. Okay, so the desire for fluidity and mobility has been recuperated by capitalism: isn't everything? Does that mean we should all go back to labelling ourselves with proper, stable identity categories and forming political alliances through them? I don't think so. That horse has left the stable.

Me, I'm very anti-identity, but that doesn't mean I don't strategically use labels to get what I need some of the time. And I'm not speaking from a 'white, heterosexual, male' approach here, either. I'm not certain, either, that it's possible to divide up who must 'like' identity via the gender/class/ethnicity/sexuality of the person speaking. I know plenty of people who have no time for sexual labels, who if they had to, would call themselves queer -- and many of them are not white or straight or male.

I'll come back later and try to be more scholarly about this.
 
 
Leidan
11:31 / 11.09.06
But if you experience your 'identity' as a concrete limitation on what you can do, where you can go, etc., then its not so clear that the real you is being hidden under a static and sterile label that's exceeded its usefulness. Here 'identity' isn't just a convenience or illusion, its a constant fact of your experience. Not that that is any less true of our w/h/m, but its certainly less immediately apparent in their case.

And if that is how one experiences identity, then the idea of 'abandoning' it, as one might abandon a walking stick one never really needed, is fairly meaningless.


Just because a feature of yourself collides with the social system doesn't mean you need or have to label yourself with that feature. You can't 'abandon' it, but the 'w/h/m' can't either when he chooses to avoid labels.

Also in my experience, this one-sidedness in talking about exclusion is inaccurate. As a 'w/h/m', i've experienced hundreds of situations where I've felt uncomfortable in social situations because of what I looked like, or how I act. In fact, in nearly all situations I feel this to some extent, so subtle is the modern social world - especially in cities.

Imagine a businessman or accountant or whatever, who at 35 has a revelation that the world he's surrounded by is grey, dull, false, whatever - he wants to become part of this shadowy/glamorous 'counter culture' that sparkles round the edges of society. Do you think it would be easy for him to 'break into' this culture, if he made an amiable effort to do so? In alot of cases corresponding to this imaginary scenario, it would be very, very difficut - in my opinion as difficult or moreso for somebody who belongs to a traditionally 'excluded' group to break into the mainstream.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:20 / 11.09.06
So really, what you're saying is that in a very real sense, white heterosexual men are the least privileged, most excluded minority in the world?

I'm sucking the barrel of a loaded gun as if it were a lover's teat.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:41 / 11.09.06
In alot of cases corresponding to this imaginary scenario, it would be very, very difficut - in my opinion as difficult or moreso for somebody who belongs to a traditionally 'excluded' group to break into the mainstream.

No it wouldn't. What it would take from our hypothetical 35-y/o would be a firm and demonstrable commitment to his chosen 'counter-culture.' Yeah, he'd have to make some hard lifestyle choices. No, he couldn't dally with the 'counter culture' and then go back to his lucrative job and plush Hoxton flat and expect everyone to go on treating him as One Of Them. He might have to jack in a job which exploits and generally shits over those in the 'counter-culture.' He might also have to be a little humble, be willing to set aside his worldveiw and learn from the new group that he was trying to integrate with.

Otherwise our notional jaded friend is just another tourist, slumming it amongst people whose hardships he will never have to worry about sharing. Fuck him, frankly.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:56 / 11.09.06
Do you think it would be easy for him to 'break into' this culture, if he made an amiable effort to do so? In alot of cases corresponding to this imaginary scenario, it would be very, very difficut - in my opinion as difficult or moreso for somebody who belongs to a traditionally 'excluded' group to break into the mainstream.

Well not really no. Our hypothetical 35 year old lawyer would, if he for whatever reason wanted to break into say, the goth scene, really just have to buy some new clothes, put up with a certain amount of bitching and perhaps not mention what he did for a living, at least for a while, until he'd gained everyone's trust. Conversely, someone on the goth scene who was looking to move into corporate law would have to go to the trouble of getting a loan together, going back to college for at least a year, and so on.

I do think that if more thirty five year old business types had the kind of personal revelation you're talking about the world would be a better place, but, on the other hand, it doesn't seem to happen all that often.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
22:14 / 11.09.06
Leidan, I think the point you're missing here is that a 35 year old corporate lawyer can probably afford to buy the 'kit' required of counter-cultural movements like the goth scene. In fact, I know of numerous 35 year old corporate lawyers who go out as goths on the weekend and don't seem to have much trouble dancing in clubs, ogling wan young ladies or getting trodden on by stiletto-heeled mistresses. They consider themselves to be goths passing as corporate lawyers. Quite imaginative, that. Are they really goths? Or are they really corporate lawyers? Are we really butterflies dreaming that we're human?

As warm and fuzzy as this makes me, I don't really see what it has to do with identity.
 
 
alas
00:30 / 12.09.06
They consider themselves to be goths passing as corporate lawyers. Quite imaginative, that. Are they really goths? Or are they really corporate lawyers? Are we really butterflies dreaming that we're human?

As warm and fuzzy as this makes me, I don't really see what it has to do with identity.


Mr. D--I'm also leery of Halberstam's argument, and you've really nailed the potential problem with it in your earlier response. But, I'm still finding it troubling my waters.

As I see it, this critique of corporate lawyers saying they're "inside" really goths, is kind of what Halberstam seems to be getting at. It's not that we should be leery of all such arguments--we need to respect that people's "internal" sense of themselves may not fit with the way social categories would define them based on their external, physical presentation. Which is, of course, considerably different than a lawyer's suit and salary, I think, "hiding" a goth identity. Nor is it that people should be "locked" into unchanging categories.

I understand her, in that book, in part, to be seeking to apply a class-based critique to certain modalities of a hip urban queerness, which exclude as inauthentic/closeted (or hopelessly trapped) those rural queers, for example, who deliberately choose to stay in their "hopeless"/"backward" environment. I'm not sure her argument works, either (the book as a whole is super disjointed, bears scars of having radicatlly changed directions midstream), but I'm interested.

And I think the sense that people have fought and died for certain identities to be acceptable as fully human--black, women, gay, lesbian--is, first off, an indictment of this history within Western rationalism (particularly since the Enlightenment) that some persons are not fully human. Non-w/m/h are always either, at some level, trapped in a perpetual childhood or positively subhuman. That's always got to be the first line of critique. People who died for them said: you must regard us as human, fully human, fully adult when we are grown.

Here's what she says in an interview a few years back about loving a kind of prodigality, prolixity of identity categories:

For me, the term female masculinity also records what can only be called a "taxonomical impulse." My book argues for greater taxonomical complexity in our queer histories. Unlike a theorist like Butler who sees categories as perpetually suspect, I embrace categorization as a way of creating places for acts, identities and modes of being which otherwise remain unnamable. I also think that the proliferation of categories offers an alternative to the mundane humanist claim that categories inhibit the unique self and creates boxes for an otherwise indomitable spirit. People who don't think they inhabit categories usually benefit from not naming their location. I try to offer some new names for formerly uninhabitable locations. In fact, my inspiration for taxonomizing comes from Eve Sedgwick's introduction to Epistemology of the Closet where she offers up a list of ways that people could map sexualities and desires. Her list refuses the banality of the homo-hetero binary and suggests that we are limited not simply by the law but by a failure of the imagination. I hope my work can help to reimagine the complex set of relations between sexuality, gender, race and class.3

[8] JAGOSE: Certainly your recent work has been revisiting - perhaps in some important sense, reinventing - categories of gendered identity. This seems to me a provocative critical move since many queer theorists - and, arguably, the most resistant effects of queer itself - are working against identificatory taxonomies, perhaps particularly those sexual taxonomies allegedly stitched up by gender. I read your work on female masculinity as being in sympathy with the denaturalising gestures at the heart of those queer projects. Yet opposing what you characterise as a mundane humanism, you say, in an idiom not much heard these days, "I embrace categorization." I am interested in this embrace of yours, the way in which it resists the increasingly spooky assumption that recourse to categories of self or categories of gendered embodiment are necessarily bound to essentialist or conservative projects. Yet it seems to me that the near critical consensus on this rests not on the humanist principles that you index here but the more plausible post-Foucaldian axiom that categories of identification are most banally in the service of the technologies of regulation. Is this distinction registered in your articulation of new "acts, identities and modes of being" in relation to female masculinity?

[9] HALBERSTAM: This is obviously a complicated question but it does register important concerns about a tactic of "productive classification." Of course, as you say, queer theory has been much preoccupied with the relationship between identity and regulation; post-Foucault, as you suggest, we recognize that to embrace identities can simply form part of a reverse discourse within which medically constructed categories are lent the weight of realness by people's willingness to occupy those categories.

[10] HALBERSTAM: However, I think that we have allowed this Foucauldian insight to redirect discussions of identification away from the subject of categories themselves. The term "reverse discourse" in The History of Sexuality, Vol. 1 identifies and rejects the traditional formulations of gay and lesbian political struggle as essentially oppositional. Since certain sexual liberation discourses, recapitulate the very terms of the homo/hetero binary which oppress us in the first place, then these discourses become part of the installation of the very sexual hierarchy that they seek to oppose. However, Foucault also understands emancipation struggles as strategically and historically necessary; furthermore, a "reverse discourse" is in no way the "same" as the discourse it reverses. Indeed its desire for reversal is a desire for transformation.4

[11] HALBERSTAM: Consequently, I don't see the point of simply rejecting all reverse discourses per se (coming out, organizing, producing new categories) but I do think it is limited to think of them (coming out, for example) as end points: Foucault clearly believes that resistance has to go beyond the taking of a name ("I am a lesbian") and must produce creative new forms of resistance by assuming and empowering a marginal positionality.

[12] JAGOSE: So what kind of marginal positionalities are you thinking of here?

[13] HALBERSTAM: Well, like a historian such as George Chauncey, I am less interested in expert-produced categories ("the homosexual," "the invert," "the transsexual") and far more interested in sexual vernaculars or the categories produced and sustained within sexual subcultures. Obviously, a project like this originates with the work of Gayle Rubin who has spoken eloquently about the limits of expert discourses on sexuality (like psychoanalysis) and the importance of questions of "sexual ethnogenesis" or the formation of sexual communities. I think scientific discourses have tended to narrow our ability to imagine sexuality and gender otherwise and in general the discussions that take place in medical communities about embodiment and desire may be way behind the discussions taking place on email lists, in support groups and in sex clubs. Doctors use categories in very different ways than people cruising for a sexual partner use categories. I think we should take over the prerogative of naming our experiences and identifications.


So her later argument is clearly growing out of this position, and trying to incorporate a class critique. I'm still mulling it over, grateful for help.
 
 
Saturn's nod
10:40 / 12.09.06
I've been thinking about this because in the Multiculturalism thread in Switchboard it seems people are very ready to granulate any identity EXCEPT w/h/m in an approach which probably wants to be seen as "anti-essentialist". But if that granulating of identity categories is only used to break down subordinate classes - "women", "black", subordinated white groups - and never touches the identity of w/h/m who prefer to take the disembodied position (throwing criticism from an unsituated undeclared kind of outer space), then it becomes yet another tool of white male supremacy.

Strategic essentialism is I guess what I am ending up with: political identity categories declared in an attempt to highlight that a choice is being made in claiming the disembodied/"non-cultural"/unmarked/undeclared position. I see the unspoken assumption of or claim to the unmarked identity category as a manifestation of dominance. Anyone else see it that way?
 
 
Leidan
10:40 / 12.09.06
Mordant: No it wouldn't. What it would take from our hypothetical 35-y/o would be a firm and demonstrable commitment to his chosen 'counter-culture.' Yeah, he'd have to make some hard lifestyle choices. No, he couldn't dally with the 'counter culture' and then go back to his lucrative job and plush Hoxton flat and expect everyone to go on treating him as One Of Them. He might have to jack in a job which exploits and generally shits over those in the 'counter-culture.' He might also have to be a little humble, be willing to set aside his worldveiw and learn from the new group that he was trying to integrate with.


Alex: Our hypothetical 35 year old lawyer would, if he for whatever reason wanted to break into say, the goth scene, really just have to buy some new clothes, put up with a certain amount of bitching and perhaps not mention what he did for a living, at least for a while, until he'd gained everyone's trust.

I will attempt to bring this back to identity while replying -

First of all I wasn't really thinking of these kind of 'weekender' cultures for these examples. I think Mordant is close to the mark here, with the talk of a 'firm and demonstrable' commitment. I don't think somebody who's simply 'wearing the clothes' would be able to function in many cultural situations - for instance, a squat, activist circles, an inner city area, etc. But I agree that 'all' it requires of the hypothetical individual is a strong commitment to the lifestyle in question - however, I think this situation is the same across the board.

The degree of situations that the whm can become part of after commitment is comparable to those that the non-whm can become part of after commitment. (there are a few situations which exclude certain groups however much they want to join in) - Doesn't this statement open the door to a conservative mindset, a return to blaming the laziness of the individual for their exclusion from whatever section of society - the business sectors, general work, the emergency services, etc?

I think instead it centres attention on the psychological battlefield. OK, so the 35 year old businessman can abandon his 9-5, move to the inner city or a squat or whatever, start experimenting with drugs and people so on. There are a load of difficult things for him to get over in this example; a lot of psychological hangups, a completely different way of social interaction, etc.

Someone who is *from* the inner city has similar obstacles in front of hir. i.e, the obstacles all call on the *individual* to change; they are not permanent, immovable obstacles. Although hate-racism still exists in some sections of society, i don't believe it exists to a large extent in, say, the service industry, the business sector; employment situations. i.e, in very few situations will you not be hired simply because of the colour of your skin.

Instead, you will not be hired because you act like somebody from the inner city, and this is where a form of racism is operational in our society. But in the same way, the accountant will be rejected from whatever social group because he acts like an accountant. Why is it easier for the person from the inner city to stop behaving like somebody from the inner city, than it is the accountant to stop behaving like an accountant? (Obviously you have to use imagination in these extreme abstractions.)

Or, visa versa? Is the victorianesque voice justified in blaming the individual for their unwillingness or inability to change? I don't think so... this is where identity comes up again, and in a contrary way to my first position. I thought I was steadfastly on the side of fluidity of identity - but in fact when we identify the individual's psychological position and complex as their identity, instead of the simple labels that were initially discussed, the concept becomes more solid and stable, and applicable to everybody. The ideas that Flyboy introduced near the beginning are also illuminated; one only becomes aware of this identity when we need to change it. Changing this identity is very difficult, both for a person traditionally excluded from the political/business world, and for somebody looking to break out of this world. (As Alex pointed out, it doesn't happen very often.)


(sidenote on 'buying a suit' - due to the monetary nature of some sections of society, 'climbing the ladder', i.e. getting a degree, becoming qualified experience-wise, etc, takes time. But you're still 'on the ladder', and all it takes to get 'on the ladder' is the decision to join it; from saving up to buy a suit to inching your way through law school.)
 
 
Disco is My Class War
12:33 / 12.09.06
alas, I have to admit that I'm wary of Halberstam since I heard her quoted saying "all the lesbians are turning into transmen -- soon there will be no lesbians left," which I think is... off-topic for this thread.

If I can argue for an anti-essentialist position in regards to identity here, of course the unmarked, supposedly 'universal' quality of what we're so quaintly calling 'w/h/m' needs to be deconstructed and denaturalised, and I think it's entirely possible to do so even as people who are subject to race, class, gender and sexuality-based oppression learn how to do politics in other ways than relying on identity to structure political strategy. Because this discussion is not about anything, if it's not about learning how to do politics, right?

I guess i just feel that identity means absolutely nothing in and for itself -- it only has relevance in terms of social and political relations, and the specific social/political/economic relations that we find ourselves in. Sometimes mobilising an identity is useful, sometimes not. But for politics, I prefer not to -- because all the political movements I've been involved in based around a common identity have ended up obsessed with policing the borders of the category for intruders. And I hate wasting time like that.

(I'm sorry if I've said this before and thus am repeating myself unnecessarily -- I feel like I trot out this argument every 6 months in the Head Shop, and I'm sure it gets boring.)

By the way, I was being flip about the corporate lawyer/goth thing, and the butterfly comment... Well, flip in a serious way. Flexibility is the name of the new corporate/identity game, right? We seriously can't tell who is who, and I think we have to come to terms with that at some point.
 
 
*
14:56 / 12.09.06
Although hate-racism still exists in some sections of society, i don't believe it exists to a large extent in, say, the service industry, the business sector; employment situations. i.e, in very few situations will you not be hired simply because of the colour of your skin.

Leidan, this is ignorance. First of all, hate and racism are not the same thing. Racism is a power structure, and people can be racist even while "really liking" people of color and "having many friends of color." Secondly, it has been shown that the color of one's skin affects one's chances for employment (for example) to a great degree, as do other signifiers that are bound up with race, like having a name that has racial significance, or appropriate ethnic hairstyles being considered "unprofessional appearance." These are forms of racism— they are founded on prejudice, and they rest on the power of white people.

This is offtopic, and if you'd like to continue this line of discussion— and I encourage you to— there are any number of threads on racism and power that you can refer to.
 
 
nighthawk
16:44 / 12.09.06
I think it's entirely possible to do so even as people who are subject to race, class, gender and sexuality-based oppression learn how to do politics in other ways than relying on identity to structure political strategy.

See this is where I think fluidity becomes interesting. Rejecting identity is not inherently political or progressive, but then its rather naive to think that it might be...

Here though, as I see it at least, the emphasis with 'identity' is not so much on shared essential features, or even shared experiences - as id pointed out in hir opening post, this can all be rather ambiguous and vague; rather its on a shared set of needs or interests. I guess this captures the thought that identity is only important with reference to 'the specific social/political/economic relations that we find ourselves in', because these same relations might mean that a disparate range of people share some of your needs and interests without sharing your 'identity' or even experiences.

I'm always a little hesitant though because one comes across similar lines of thought among, for example, certain sections of the ultra-left, from people who are fairly hostile to any sort of identity politics, to the point where I start to suspect their whole position.


I'm not very well-versed in e.g. queer theory, so I'm not sure how to contextualise the Halberstein quotes above. What does it mean, in this context, for hir to be applying a 'class-based critique'? Is ze just pointing out that this hip urban queerness excludes certain sections of the queer population? To put it another way, is (lack of) inclusivity the issue, or the unsuccesful opposition to capital?
 
  

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