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Concept Interrogation: Civil Liberties

 
 
nighthawk
09:11 / 03.09.06
This comes out of a thread about New Labour's anti-social behaviour legislation. Its probably worth reading it through to get a better idea of why I started this one.



People often phrase their criticism of this sort of legislation in terms of 'civil liberties'. The idea, I think, is that civil liberties ensure the individual a certain amount of integrity and independence from the state, and that by eroding them this sort of legislation shifts the balance of power within a society. This is often reinforced by concerns about the possibility of a police or totalitarian state that might follow from such an imbalance.

In the thread, I questioned this approach, pointing out the Anti-Social Behaviour legislation, particularly the type Tony Blair recently proposed, by and large actually only affects very specific groups in society. I suggested that the more universal arguments about civil liberties tend to obscure very worrying shifts in Labour policy towards the disenfranchised and working class:

This might be a bullshit generalisation, but it feels like liberals often critique this kind of legislation with examples of good honest citizens, right on activists, etc, who suffer because it is abused. I'm just a bit uncomfortable with the 'it affects everyone! and it can be abused and used against nice people!' approach, because by and large this type of legislation actually directly affects very specific groups, who may or may not be good citizens. And it does so without any need for 'abuse' of the law.

I'm not saying that the 'civil liberties' concerns are wrong, or that raising them is illegitimate. But when they dominate a critique, particularly one of this anti-social behaviour stuff, they tend to smudge a very important dynamic in New Labour policy, hijacking it with what I'm going to tentatively call liberal middle-class concerns. This papers over things that are far more immediately worrying for people on the left.

Of course I could be wrong about that, but I thought we could discuss when and how the language of 'civil liberties' is useful, and when it is not.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
18:11 / 03.09.06
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. You're saying that middle class people shouldn't complain about attacks on Civil Liberties, because these attacks won't affect them? I don't see how that works. I can see how someone "enfranchised" might be in danger of talking for someone who is "disenfranchised", but surely it's better that the middle-classes realise that these attacks are happening? Who, after all, has acess to the newspapers, the TV stations, and the Universities?
 
 
nighthawk
19:15 / 03.09.06
No no no. In the other thread I was worried that by describing it as an attack on civil liberties, people were missing what I found genuinely worrying about this legislation, i.e. a fairly explicit rejection of any social democratic programme on the part of new labour. I appreciate that the two are not mutually exclusive, but once people frame their worries in terms of 'civil liberties' like this, criticism tends to take a certain form: 'we're on our way to a police state'; 'this legislation can be abused and used against anyone'.

I don't think that this is bad or wrong. But it passes over what I think is really worrying about anti-social stuff, i.e. that its the ugly end point of a gradual shift in how labour deals with social inequality. This legislation isn't worrying because it encroaches on all our rights, its worrying because it shows that the main left wing party has completely rejected any reformist programme and embraced the centre right. Perhaps I'm just nit-picking here, but I do think there's a real difference here. I'm not sure I'm making it very clear though...

Perhaps we could keep discussion about that in the other thread, and just talk about 'civil liberties' in general here? I think they might be useful in critiquing id cards, for example.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:37 / 04.09.06
I see, I think. You're saying that while the proposed anti-anti-social measures could be read as a threat to civil liberties, they are primarily an attack on the lower echelons of society, and that it is this aspect that should be the centre of debate?
 
 
nighthawk
16:03 / 04.09.06
Yes, pretty much.
 
 
Triumvir
14:54 / 06.09.06
Nighthawk, I think you have it all wrong. The problems with this legislation have everything to do with civil liberties, and little at all to do with class warfare. The law (so I'm lead to believe) is meant to combat juvinile delinquincy in the UK. I don't see how reducing the rate of juvinile delinquincy is an attack on the lower echelons of society. Since when is it an inalienable right of underprivalidged children to be be juvinile deliquients? Rather, it is the fact that freedom of expression is curtiled (i.e. street art) that makes this law reprehensible.
 
 
nighthawk
15:56 / 06.09.06
Since when is it an inalienable right of underprivalidged children to be be juvinile deliquients?

I'm not sure where I suggested or implied that? Have you read the Switchboard thread?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:02 / 06.09.06
Triumvir, I think the point is that yes, it's about civil liberties, but the civil liberties in question, in danger, belong exclusively to the disenfranchised...
 
 
nighthawk
19:09 / 06.09.06
Oh hold up, I'm not sure about that. The interview suggested that labour's new policy towards people living in difficult social conditions would be to 'give them advice', which they would be 'forced' to comply with should they prove reluctant. I think that's first and foremost a shift in social policy, not a 'civil liberties' issue, at least in the way the phrase is normally used.
 
  
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