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Musicals

 
  

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Jackie Susann
07:23 / 10.09.06
Last night I had a party for my birthday, and before people came round we were watching The Sound of Music on TV. I'd actually never seen it before. Anyway, it ended, and I was feeling a little depressed about the whole fleeing the Nazis vibe, not really a party feeling. So I just put in Singing in the Rain, skipped to 'Make Em Laugh', and felt awesome.

I don't know anything else in the world so guaranteed to make me feel better as Make Em Laugh.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
09:01 / 10.09.06
I've just ordered The Sound of Music, having (remarkably it seems) never watched it... my decision is based on having caught a few episodes of "...Maria?", the televised audition show. I'm not entirely sure if I've ever seen Singing' In the Rain all the way through either, and I certainly haven't seen Fiddler on the Roof.

But I do love musicals in general. I would count West Side Story as one of my favourite ever films of any genre, and sitting me in front of a big song and dance number, either live or on DVD, is the best way to get me tearful. The euphoria and the tragedy seem turned up beyond the normal maxiumum limit of everyday life ~ everything, the highs and the lows, are more heartfelt, more bleak or more glorious. I am not even immune to cheese ~ I'm perhaps even more susceptible to cheese, especially 80s cheese (a musical of The Breakfast Club would have me in tears throughout I'm sure) and I had huge lumps in my throat during Footloose: The Musical very recently.

More later
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:59 / 10.09.06
Rather than expand further ~ I was interrupted midway ~ here's my post on Happy thread from Conversation earlier this week.

I saw Evita tonight and it gave me a complicated but mostly positive... slowly-radiating burst of emotions, as though it planted a grenade in me that fragged in slomo throughout the performance ~ it made me feel very alone in the dark, and it made me feel that the girl in the spotlight was voicing things I felt secretly... and it made me feel what it might like to be dead, and it nudged such vivid sadness and euphoria from me at different places that it made me feel I was properly alive for the first time in a week or so.
 
 
Axolotl
17:17 / 10.09.06
I seem to gravitate towards the traditional American musicals of the the 40s and 50s. Singing in the Rain is amazing and though I have never seen the apparently superior stage version I do like On the Town partly for its blend of stage and on location and partly because it's imho the best on screen pairing of Kelly and Sinatra.
In fact to be honest I'll watch any thing with Gene Kelly in. The man was a genius.
On the more modern front, does Blues Brothers count as a musical? and did any one see Romance & Cigarettes?
 
 
grant
16:46 / 11.09.06
I was just thinking about Blues Brothers as some sort of cousin to Rock and Roll High School the other day.

They seem not to be *musical* musicals, but I'm not sure why. I think because the final culmination in both is a concert -- they're about the music and about performing/listening to the music, rather than the music being about something else (like the crucifixion, or shore leave, or time-traveling hypersexual mad scientists).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:48 / 11.09.06
OK, with Rock and Roll High School you have now finally blown my opera vs musicals argument out of the water.

OK, I officially like musicals now.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:55 / 11.09.06
Inspired by this thread, I am about to watch Katakuris again. I just watched the trailer. The subtitles: "A SERIES OF DISASTERS. AND SONGS AND DANCES SOLVE THEM".
 
 
Cherielabombe
19:17 / 11.09.06
See, I would consider "The Blues Brothers" and "Rock and Roll High School" more Rock Opera. But I suppose they do qualify as musicals.

I adore musicals though I do tend towards rocking ones like "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" and the like. "Cabaret" is one of my favorite musicals of all time though.

I do feel there are some classic musicals I've never seen: "The Sound of Music" for example. I am not too keen on some of the over-gilded Andrew Lloyd Webber musicals though - "Les Mis" didn't do much to me and I can't see anything from "Cats" without thinking of Cheryl Zopp doing an off-key rendition of "Memory" at the 8th-grade Talent Show or Zoo Animals On Wheels.

I am always willing to give a Musical a chance, though.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
20:08 / 11.09.06
What can I say to that but:

He's a sinner
Candy-coated
For all his friends
He always seems to be alone
But they love him
Bugsy Malone


He is a metaffa for musicals in general DO YOU SEE?!?
 
 
Spaniel
20:11 / 11.09.06
The numbers in musicals are usually about meditating on a theme or a feeling and usually stand outside the plot. The numbers in Blues Brothers are about listening to music and performing music and are incorporated into the plot.
 
 
Feverfew
20:14 / 11.09.06
I have Billy the Kid and the Green Baize Vampire, a musical about a snooker grudge-match featuring the wild west and Transylvania, awaiting watching.

I'll come back and elaborate more when I've done so.
 
 
Shrug
21:22 / 11.09.06
The numbers in musicals are usually about meditating on a theme or a feeling and usually stand outside the plot. The numbers in Blues Brothers are about listening to music and performing music and are incorporated into the plot.

Well I'd disagree with that to a point, given that "backstage" musicals make serious attempt to weave most if not all of their musical numbers into the narrative. Similarly, many musicals numbers have clear narrative intent/direction.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:32 / 11.09.06
For instance, "Kiss Me Kate" is I think entirely musical numbers motivated (sometimes at a stretch) by a theatrical setting, ie. they are sung by performers, on stage or in dressing rooms.

On the other hand, the "Rainbow Tour" in "Evita" is integral to the story. Without the song, we wouldn't know about Evita's tour of Europe or the start of her illness.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:33 / 11.09.06
But perhaps Evita is a rock opera anyway, not a musical. It only has a few spoken lines.
 
 
Spaniel
21:44 / 11.09.06
Yes, perhaps my last post was a little too prescripive.

Still the meditiation thing was worth mentioning.
 
 
Spaniel
21:57 / 11.09.06
(Does anyone else ever post stuff which, at the time of posting, they kind of know is bollocks but they go ahead and post anyway? I hate it when I do that)
 
 
Shrug
22:11 / 11.09.06
(Perhaps some of you have already noticed but... yes, quite often!)

Another yes to the mediation thing, Boboss, I just thought you were overestimating the scope of a slightly narrow definition.

Btw, I found this wonderful article on the musicals of Julie Andrews, if anyone cares to take a peek.
Maria Von Poppins, feminine icon?
 
 
Shrug
22:27 / 11.09.06
Oh, and favourite bit of any musical ever (so far):

Don Lockwood capers around in the rain, tap dancing like the pavement's done something to piss him off, swinging off lamp-posts, singing at the top of his voice, etc. until a pretty incredulous policeman comes over to enquire what exactly the hell is going on (or presumably arrest him for some sort of public order offence). Our unconsciously thin veil of belief is shattered (Hey this isn't the sort of thing anyone normally does!) and we're immediately grounded in a more feasible filmic reality.
Until, when, after apologies, we see Don saunter off with a little more than a hint of his previous ebullience, whistling the tune, and suddenly we're back again.

(It says something about the transportive magic of cinema to me, but you had to be there, I guess).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:59 / 11.09.06
Actually, can someone (preferably not actually Pete Townshend or Roger Waters) actually come up with a decent definition for "rock opera"?

Cos as far as I can tell, they're not operas, usually. They're musicals with guitar solos.

I'd like Jim Steinman (for whom I have an awful lot of love, and to whom I will dedicate a thread as soon as I can be arsed) to write an ACTUAL opera. I would love to see- and hear- the literal interpretation of the phrase "rock opera" as written by The Steinster.


ANYHOO... back to musicals, what with them being the subject and all... I watched Katakuris again tonight, and it is absolutley stunning. And, to completely go back on EVERYTHING I said earlier in this thread, it's actually the bits when, when faced with all manner of shit, the family line up and assume their dance formation that really cement it for me. Everything the trailer says is true. Almost.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:00 / 11.09.06
(adding- The Wall actually IS a "rock opera" as far as I can tell).
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:38 / 12.09.06
I don't know opera but I would distinguish "rock opera" from "a musical" in that the latter has substantial interludes of spoken lines that advance the story, develop the characters and so on, whereas in the former, those lines are still sung.

The "rock" part, for me, comes simply from the arrangement, eg. in Evita (1970s version... it has been reworked for 2006) heavy electric guitar and big drum flourishes.

I know this is a naive definition but I think it works.
 
 
grant
16:11 / 12.09.06
No, I think that makes perfect sense. There's not really recitative in a musical, and "musical" is really short for "musical theater," as in a play in which characters sing.
 
 
Tsuga
02:21 / 14.09.06
When I was a kid, I thought I kind of hated musicals, being a "normal" boy I thought they were too "gay" (forgive my youthful ignorance). But when I was at my grandmother's house, I would always put on her albums of Fiddler on the Roof and West Side Story. Probably under the pretense of making fun, but of course the music was fantastic... uh, I mean, stupid. And back when you only had four channels to choose from, we would be excited to learn that The Sound of Music was making it's yearly round, and watch it every time. Of course, only to make fun of it. Ahem.
So I got older and a little less ignorant and could actually enjoy elements of musicals, though I continued to find the concept kind of jarring, this acting turning into song back into acting. My wife kind of helped wear down my reflexive prejudice against them and just go with it, since her family had a pretty musical (as in, involvement with musicals) bent. That and one of my sisters getting into musical theater as a profession has made me pretty open to them now, thankfully. I think some succeed more than others with the fluidity of transitions between narrative and song, or of course even the interest of the story itself. Like any art form some are great, some are not. West Side Story may be my favorite; I mean, the story is just another version of Romeo and Juliet, but well done, and the music is brilliant.
I can't believe no one has mentioned the South Park movie. I had no idea going in that it even was a musical. And whether or not you appreciate their humor or politics, you have to admit that it really was a perfectly done musical.
And hey, now my sister's got a lead on Broadway, so I gotta love musicals.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
15:19 / 17.09.06
I had exactly the same experience watching the South Park film. I left a dinner party halfway through just because I wanted to watch it so much, and when the whole thing opened with "Quiet Mountain Town" I near exploded with joy as I realised that not only was I watching the South Park movie, but it was also a MUSICAL! To which I could buy the soundtrack and sing along!!!

Pure. Joy.
 
 
COG
20:23 / 30.09.06
Singing in the Rain is my no.1 film of all time. Just a perfect arrangement of elements with no baggy moments or duff choices at all. The fact that it's a musical is by the by. I'm not a big fan of them normally.

It's one of those pieces of culture that make me realise that people who lived 50, 100 or 1000 years ago were just like me and not some vague historical shadow in a book. Are there films this poised and balanced still made today?

I made my friends watch it on Mushrooms, and now it's their favourite film too.
 
 
Janean Patience
08:59 / 20.04.07
Ah, Chicago. What a show. Saw it last night, for the second time, and for a globally successful piece of mass-media entertainment it's incredibly subversive.

Previously on this thread I wrote: Chicago, if anyone's not seen it on stage, is far superior to the film. It's Brechtian in its staging and reminded me of Caryl Churchill's work; the characters are living their lives and performing them as a floorshow both at once...

The stage is dominated by a riser, I think they call it; a big, sloping bandstand with a fake brick back wall. There's a full band on here and a central gap for the performers to enter. Other than that the stage is bare. The chorus sit on chairs down the sides of the riser, waiting for their parts much as they would backstage, and the front of the stage is left bare.

It occurred to me watching this last night: there's no fourth wall. No barrier between the audience and the show. The characters know they're performing and make frequent reference to it. Their lives are staged in the hope of stardom, and this is the story of those staged lives. All done without a moment of self-consciousness. During Roxie in the first half, the singer's giggling with delicious delight at being on stage and having the band play her song, having dancers at her beck and call. Billy Flynn, the lawyer, is knowingly false from his first number - you're introduced to him in full knowledge that he means the opposite of everything he says. Characters call for their exit music as they leave, and the songs about their big numbers are their big numbers.

I'm finding the whole thing hard to sum up. All this is done using a very limited palette, about 10 or so people playing all the parts and propelling the plot using the techniques of physical theatre. This isn't the musical-as-spectacular. The dancing all has that Fosse stylisation, snapping wrists and limp bodies and hidden faces. Certain songs that don't work at all in the movie are revelatory on stage. The Press Conference Rag, in which Roxie is a dummy on Flynn's lap, explains the double-deception of what's transpiring in music and dance far more concisely and completely than prose or acting could.

And the plot: killers are entertainment in Chicago. The public (via the press) want to know about the hair on the walls but need it packaged with hypocritical repentance. Lesbianism's just one more opportunistic hurdle on the way to the top in vaudeville. Roxie and Velma, at the end, two killers who got away with it, are allowed to identify as the American dream and everything that's good about it. They're cheered for it. By me, last night.

Any thoughts on how something this radical is allowed, uncommented, to be regarded as trash for the masses? Or alternatively, is that Spider-Man musical a travesty or what?
 
 
grant
16:00 / 20.04.07
Are there musicals that aren't radical?

I'm having trouble thinking of one that isn't. (Or that at least doesn't make a stab in that direction.) Even Oklahoma and The Wizard of Oz seem to lend themselves to allegorical readings about Okies and the kinds of things Woody Guthrie was singing about.
 
 
This Sunday
15:32 / 22.04.07
There are no staid musicals, really. Or careful musicals. There can't be. Katakuris, Hedwig, The Wicker Man, and Maison Ikkoku. Rocky Horror, Sound of Music, The Blues Bros. and either version of The Producers.

Singing in a narrative is somehow instantaneously a political act.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
10:49 / 23.04.07
Annie?

Starlight Express?

I forgot how much I loved Merrily We Roll Along, especially "Not A Day Goes By", which as a love song is just absolutely beautifully understated. Truly one of the greatest Sondheims.
 
 
grant
13:01 / 23.04.07
When did Annie become a musical? Because a narrative about an orphanage and a robber baron could easily be said to be politically pointed in the right historical context....
 
 
This Sunday
13:37 / 23.04.07
Somewhere between Rooster Hannigan and Daddy Warbucks, it couldn't not be political.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
13:43 / 23.04.07
Isn't this entire thread to do with post-modern irony being taken several steps too far?

Without wishing to seem too hard-line about this, surely musicals are a bit like super-strength lagers, in the sense that there are no good ones, that the product, by it's very nature, is poisonous for the human soul?
 
 
Whisky Priestess
14:07 / 23.04.07
All right smartypantses, politicise Cats, Starlight Express, Little Shop of Horrors and Aspects of Love for me. Go on.
 
 
grant
16:25 / 23.04.07
I haven't seen Cats, Starlight Express (the one on skates, right?) or Aspects of Love, but Little Shop of Horrors is about a nebbishy city dweller being bullied by a plant that won't stop eating. It's also a twice-recycled story (starting as a John Collier short story called "Green Thoughts," then as a run-of-the-mill ((if humorous)) exploitation flick), so I *don't* think it's stretching things to look at it as an ironic, critical commentary on consumer culture, fame, spectacle-as-spectacle, all that stuff.

Admittedly, this is partially an allegorical reading, but I think it's a fairly obvious one -- I'd be surprised if the producers/songwriters weren't thinking about that when putting the show together. Feed me, feed me.

They say the meek shall inherit
You know the book doesn't lie
It's not a question of merit
It's not demand and supply


and

Would you like a Cadillac car?
Or a guest shot on Jack Paar?
How about a date with Hedy Lamarr?
You gonna get it.

Would you like to be a big wheel,
Dinin' out for every meal?
I'm the plant that can make it all real
You gonna get it


and so on.

From what I've heard of Cats and Starlight Express, I think they might be something other than a standard musical, in that they don't really have theme or plot (and that there are a few games played with audience vs. stage space). Is that true?
 
 
Peach Pie
16:34 / 23.04.07

I've been excited to see Guys & Dolls for a couple of months now and there's another couple of months to go.

Saw it in Nottingham - Claire was fantastic, as was every single dancer and singer in the supporting cast. The Nathan Detroit figure was perfectly played by the dude who used to go round Coronation Street bumping off unsuspecting residents.
 
  

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