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Musicals

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16:45 / 02.09.06

I've had a search but, amazingly, we don't seem to have a thread about musicals, whether theatrical or celluloid. Other than Avenue Q.

I used to be rather contemptuous of musicals, and reckoned that, with a handful of exceptions (Cabaret, The Rocky Horror Picture Show), they were ridiculous toss. In retrospect, I think at least some of this was me rather insecurely reacting against the stereotype of homosexual campness - swishy, showtune-obsessed gayers. As I've, erm, matured, however, I find myself less bothered about such things - and, with London at my disposal, evolving into a regular theatre queen...

... to the extent that I've seen a load of musicals (Mary Poppins, Billy Elliot, Evita, the aforementioned Avenue Q and even Mamma Fucking Mia!), grudgingly at first but, increasingly, with undisguised pleasure. I'm not sure whether we've got better at choosing better quality musicals, or whether my tolerance of cheese/corn has risen with age.

How do y'all feel about musicals?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:42 / 02.09.06

Hmm... I used to have a knee-jerk hatred of musicals (other than Alferd Packer/Cannibal: The Musical and RHPS... oh, and Bugsy Malone, but I've not seen that one for about twenty years, so it may well not be the way I remember it)... but my liking for opera has gone some way toward convincing me that maybe I'm missing out.

I mean, I still think of musicals as opera's tackier cousin, but I'm at least accepting that they're related now.

Closest thing I've seen in a while was The Black Rider, which as far as I recall was more opera than musical. But it was a lot of fun.

18:03 / 02.09.06

Interesting that it's opera that's drawn you in, Stoatie. I think I'm still slightly intimidated by the idea of opera. The only one I've been to see in London is Jerry Springer, and I'm not sure to what extent I enjoyed that merely because the novelty of people swearing operatically was, for me, sustained throughout.

Maybe I ought to try to see more opera.

18:15 / 02.09.06

What would you recommend, BTW? Opera-wise? As I say, I'm some way off being an opera queen.

18:16 / 02.09.06

And Cabaret returns to the Lyric, Shaftesbury Avenue soon! In just over a fortnight! Get tickets for the previews!

I'd like to make mention here of film musicals too. Anything with Fred Astaire in it, Gene Kelly hoofing, High Society. Seeing Cabaret on film with my first boyfriend in the 70s was a pivotal moment for me. Liza Minnelli has never been finer. In fact, she has never been much use at any other time. Which is surprising, given that she was blindlingly good in that musical.

The Sound of Music was totemic to the Childe Xoc and the Long Playing 33rpm records my folks had of My Fair Lady and The King and I account for my word-perfect knowledge of those glorious songs to this day. Don't encourage me or it could go on all night, the droning and the flamboyance. Can there be a connection between love of musical theatre and incipient bumming? Surely not.

My London musical-love dates from seeing Rufus Norris's wonderful production of Festen at the Lyric. Our lovey, theatrical friend said to us that it was "a musical about child abuse in Denmark, based on a [miserable] Dogme film" and I thought this will be a test! Loved it. I laughed. I cried. I hummed along. Depth with your doo be doo be doo.

When they travelled down from Scotland to see the City Lights, we took my parents, his mum, my sister and nieces (that's three times dancing, exultantly, in the aisles) to see Mamma Mia and had mindless fun. We had tickets for something else or we'd have gone a fourth time to see it when we got tickets for his sister when she was down. Queer boys, Abba, sequins, kerching! Families all had an epiphany too.

Best of all, in the World of the West End Musical though, has been: Billy Elliot. Maybe it's because Thatcher fucked up most of my twenties and some of my thirties and listening to people crooning about her demise is very comforting to me but I think it's just that they do the same thing on stage as Stephen Daldry did on film - imagine that moment when Adam Cooper launches himself into space as the Swan but multiplied many times in the course of the evening. I was subtly dabbing at my eyes - to preserve my butch image,

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

18:48 / 02.09.06

Ganesh- I'm still something of a neophyte in the realms of Actually Going To See Opera, but you can do a lot worse than Wagner. Saw the Ring Cycle over a period of twelve months not long ago, but the ROH are doing a PROPER ONE!!! Like, over four days! And NOT without Phyllida Lloyd's bizarre staging! next year. I'm SO there.

I think the difference for me may be in terms of distancing the audience. I can accept a world in which everything is sung far more easily than I can accept one in which people talk like I do, but every now and then burst into song and dance numbers. I'm trying to think of a parallel. Okay, here goes. Not a particularly good one, mind you, but if I saw a play in which everyone spoke "realistically", apart from every few minutes they'd shift into iambic pentameters for a few minutes, I'd find it alienating.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

18:51 / 02.09.06

(I've put a mod request in already, but given that it utterly transforms the sense of what I was saying... I meant to say the ROH's Cycle would be WITHOUT Phyllida Lloyd's bizarre staging. Siegfried as stroppy teenager kind of worked, but Brunnhilde as suicide bomber just actually made no sense in the context of the story. Though it was a striking image).

18:55 / 02.09.06

Certainly, there's a smidgeon less cheese in an all-singing world as opposed to a bursting-into-song one, but I do still quite like the halfway stage of musicals (if they're to be seen as a halfway stage rather than a medium in their own right - and I think I'd buy an argument for either). Wagner's always seemed a bit heavy, really; I worry that I'd be sitting there for hours, looking at my watch and thinking, "when's Ride of the Valkyries?"

18:58 / 02.09.06

(Incidentally, Stoatie - and this should give you a minor happy - I had to go pick up a package from DHL today; the bloke who brought me my parcel had 'STRAWBERRY SWITCHBLADE' tattooed on the inside of his left forearm. Which was rather lovely, and made me think of you.)

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

19:03 / 02.09.06

(Coolest. Tattoo. Ever. Why the FUCK didn't I think of that???)

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

19:42 / 02.09.06

I think the difference for me may be in terms of distancing the audience. I can accept a world in which everything is sung far more easily than I can accept one in which people talk like I do, but every now and then burst into song and dance numbers.

I have the opposite reaction. I can accept people bursting into song as some sort of a big collaborative expression of magical joy more than I can somebody singing "say, pass the milk, would you?/I think my cereal is a bit dry" or whatever.

I find it easier to emotinally/mentally invest in a world where people just really like to sing than I can in a world where everyone sings constantly and it's not as "special" when they all jump up and do a dance number because, hell, they were singing anyway.

Part of that, though, is that I have a deep desire to live in a town where everyone spontaneously bursts into song.

Ganesh, I have a deep and abiding love for The Music Man as an old-style musical of the joyous school. It's a light bit of fluff with memorable tunes and nothing of real import to say, but it's got a town of overenthusiastic repressed people who are liberated from their restrictive ways by a snooker-loving con artist selling musical instruments. Who falls in love with the local librarian! And gives up his life of crime to be a real band leader! Hooray!

On film, Woody Allen's Everyone Say I Love You got savaged by the public and the critics, but I thought it handled the transitions from "normal life" to "huge show tune" really well.

I think I'm going to dig through the old videocassettes tonight and see what I can find, actually.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

20:08 / 02.09.06

I have the opposite reaction. I can accept people bursting into song as some sort of a big collaborative expression of magical joy more than I can somebody singing "say, pass the milk, would you?/I think my cereal is a bit dry" or whatever.

I find it easier to emotinally/mentally invest in a world where people just really like to sing than I can in a world where everyone sings constantly and it's not as "special" when they all jump up and do a dance number because, hell, they were singing anyway.

I can see that, sure. I think what I'm getting at is that people singing all the time is one leap I have to make. Like people talking in pentameters, or dressing in spandex and fighting crime, or talking in a language I don't understand with their words appearing beneath their faces as subtitles.

It's the leaps back and forth that I don't really like. I know these aren't the best analogies (for example, I can cope quite easily with films in multiple languages, where some characters are subtitled and some aren't)- I'm kind of trying to explain this to myself as I go along, really.

21:09 / 02.09.06

As regards film musicals I most definitely agree, Matt, much more believable. Characters usually have a reliable narrative reason to burst into song in musicals, don't they? Either they work in the business called show (see: Singing in the Rain/Hedwig and the Angry Inch/An American in Paris) or are portrayed as those insanely ebullient types liable to burst into song/dance at any given time (see: Maria in The Sound of Music), or a sense of magic is evoked thereby skewing our normal perception of behaviour (Brigadoon, Mary Poppins).

I haven't seen much opera, but from a filmic stand point again, I had to leave a viewing of the much lauded Carmen Jones due to rising irritability, and although I've never seen something like The Umbrellas of Cherbourg, I'd imagine the continuous evocation via song would leave my tolerance perilously low in that case too.

The most recent musical I saw kind of screwed that perspective a little, though, the numbers being almost purposefully jarring. The Happiness of the Katakuris frankly has it all: claymation, awful, awful deliberately cheesy routines, horror, a bizarre plot, great characters, and alot of fun is had at taking the piss out of common musical convention.

The tag says it all really: "The Hills Are Alive with The Sound of Screaming!"

On the whole musicals definitely = joyous.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

22:47 / 02.09.06

Oh bugger, I'd forgotten Katakuris.

That destroys my entire point. Except- except it's Miike. His movies are a law unto themselves, so they don't count.

*phew* Think I got out of that one, eh, readers?

23:12 / 02.09.06

I've never even heard of Katakuris. My interest is piqued.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:18 / 02.09.06

Imagine a feel-good musical. By Takashi Miike. With claymation, zombies and much death.

You're about half-way there.

Watch it. It's ACE.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

23:28 / 02.09.06

I will third the recommendation for Katakuris. Miike really just latches onto the gonzo aspect of the musical and plays it to the hilt in a very otherwise Miike context. It actually felt more like Wild Zero to me than an actual Miike movie.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:53 / 02.09.06

It actually felt more like Wild Zero to me than an actual Miike movie.

That's about the best recommendation you can get.

00:01 / 03.09.06

There's something transcendent about the musical. I've been watching Kathleen Turner in ...Virginia Woolf or Brian Dennehy in Death of a Salesman and felt that spurt of joy and what Richard Strauss called Verklärung. With musicals it happens every five minutes: the rush of unsculpted and unconsidered whoop. Crying, laughing, singing feebly or tunelessly along. Event!

22:31 / 03.09.06

I am so glad you started this thread, because I had been meaning to do the same thing. As I mentioned in the Creation, I am working on my own musical, so I am trying to watch as many as possible over the next few weeks.

One of my favourites that hasn't been mentioned yet is Westside Story. For a form that's considered intrinsically cheesy, it manages to be incredibly moving - joyous and tragic and bitingly satirical. Officer Krupke is maybe my favourite song out of any musical.

Last week I watched Singing In The Rain for the first time, and that's just amazing. I really love what seems to me like a tropism in musicals towards stories about transitions and declines in forms of storytelling - the end of silent movies in Singing In The Rain, the end of vaudeville in Gypsy, the end of 20s Weimar decadence in Cabaret. I'm sure there are more examples.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

05:31 / 04.09.06

The evolution of my view of musicals runs a similar course to that of my view of classical music. I was involved with the production of both long before I was ever interested in actually observing them as an audience member. Also, much like classical music, for a long time I didn't really listen to musicals on their own terms due to hangovers from my musical education.

For instance: I was not able to listen/watch/enjoy Fiddler on the Roof until recently. Like, a couple weeks ago. I have had a great deal of experience with the music of Fiddler on the Roof. At one point I had a good half of it memorized and performed it daily from memory. Something like that will kill off a lot of enthusiasm, no matter how great the music is (a similar thing happened to Bach's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desire", which, aside from being a moving piece of baroque music, is an excellent warm-up and tuning piece for an orchestral group. But playing it several times daily will desensitize one to the beauty).

Fortunately, I was able to get past this as I matured. I saw Fiddler on the Roof a couple weeks ago on television and didn't hum along or attempt to play the music on a phantom instrument or pull my hair or weep uncontrollably or paint "may God fuck Anatevka for eternity" on the walls with my blood or anything. I still don't especially care for it, but I can watch it without any negative effects.

The last musical I saw live was Miss Saigon, and not only did I enjoy the music and the drama, but I found myself rather envious of the performers. Being a part of the production is a lot of fun. I kinda miss it.

I have an easy time enjoying musicals. I can forgive a lot of cheese if it means I will enjoy the show more. Plus there's a lot of great music (the hell you say!).

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

05:34 / 04.09.06

With musicals it happens every five minutes: the rush of unsculpted and unconsidered whoop. Crying, laughing, singing feebly or tunelessly along. Event!

Yes! Yes.

Janean Patience

20:58 / 04.09.06

Great to see this thread because I love musicals, unequivocally and without shame. Even though it's got Claire Sweeney in it, I've been excited to see Guys & Dolls for a couple of months now and there's another couple of months to go. (Actually, Claire should make a very credible Miss Adelaide.) That's one of the best musicals of all: wonderful memorable songs, great characters taken from Runyon and given life and breath on the stage, and crucially everything important is right there in the songs.

That's the mark of the best musicals for me. I prefer bursting into song than all-singing, just because in the latter there always ends up being a line like I shall go and do the washing-up trilled with gay abandon. In musicals like Grease, Guys & Dolls, West Side Story, the book is only setting the scene. All the important plot and character moments are in song, and the resolution is crucially in song. Look at Rocky Horror, where Janet's corruption is perfectly enshrined in Touch Me, or the sheer erotic abandon of Don't Dream It.

I'll even defend Lloyd Webber's musicals if called upon to do so, up to and including Phantom. And Chicago, if anyone's not seen it on stage, is far superior to the film. It's Brechtian in its staging and reminded me of Caryl Churchill's work; the characters are living their lives and performing them as a floorshow both at once...

18:38 / 05.09.06

I'm not sure I like the *idea* of musicals, but I will quote songs from West Side Story and Jesus Christ Superstar at the drop of a hat, and quite enjoy listening to A Night on the Town on the radio during my drive home. Although the recent one that kept playing songs from Wicked and, I dunno what (The Pajama Game? Some damn early 1960s thing...) had me touching that dial.

21:30 / 05.09.06

I'm not sure I like the *idea* of musicals, but

Good to see denial's still working for you.

21:31 / 05.09.06

Oh that came out so bitchy. It was meant affectionately. Honest.

03:44 / 06.09.06

Hey, cool it, man!

(Simon Peter, "Strange Thing Mystifying" (Track 3), responding to Judas.)

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It just occurred to me that the musicals I tend to like best are all kitschy appropriations of subcultures, especially ones with slang or non-English languages worked into dialogue. I'm including Fiddler on the Roof there.

Although that doesn't explain Man of La Mancha....

03:55 / 06.09.06

Let's keep this party polite.
Never get out of my sight....

11:06 / 06.09.06

I'm always hazy on musicals, because I think my "quality" criteria are different. I've no problem with melodrama, but sometimes I find the plot/music just not very engaging.

Anyhow, I wanted to talk about White Christmas, because whilst at times it's very kitschy, it's also supremely well made - great songs and music, fun choreography, and this plot that covers quite a sweep - the opening in WWII is, compared to the rest of the film, relatively grim. Of course, "grim" in the relative term of the movie means "marginally unpleasant", but it's still a surprise if you don't know what to expect. I was really surprised by how much I enjoyed this.

Definite thumbs up to West Side Story too; those fantastic Bernstein tunes, heading towards twelve-tonism every now and then, and the satire/tragedy that Jackie Susann mentioned. Good stuff.

12:40 / 06.09.06

Have you seen the new (well, not so new) DVD widescreen release? The choreography suddenly makes sense (I'd only ever seen the 4:3 version before I borrowed the box from a friend.) That school dance scene with Gomez Addams gets all geometric.

20:16 / 09.09.06

Rocky Horror is on ITV3 right fucking now.

Science Fiction Double Feature makes my top ten tunes evah. Soooo sexy good.

22:02 / 09.09.06

And I, OHHH, I see blue sky-ah-ahs through the te-ars in my eyes
And then I re-alise, I'm goin' home..."

22:03 / 09.09.06

I'll stop now.

22:56 / 09.09.06

I'm interested in your use of the term Verklärung, Xoc, www.answers.com gives it as a synonym of transfiguration, which in a biblical context is "[t]he sudden emanation of radiance from the person of Jesus that occurred on a mountain." Is that what you meant? That sudden radiance?
I know nothing of Richard Strauss, a composer?

The term also reminds me of the clever self-reflexivity negotiated in the narrative of "Singing in the Rain", Jackie, which the studio setting allows (And also how the Spectacle/Narrative divide works in it, a very different approach to that of the Katakuris, but to much the same effect in parts).

Like you say, the film heralds the end of the silent era and the breakthrough into "talkies", (The Jazz Singer is even footnoted throughout the film). And Singing in the Rain constantly reminds us of the gauze of superficiality applied in the making of musicals, employing previously used musical numbers, forefronting the perilous reality of Lina "I CANNNNN'T" Lamont, the inherent hamminess of "The Duelling Cavalier", down to a specific scene where Don deconstructs the magic of cinema (just lights/windmachines/sound stages/etc) to Kathy, and then breaks into a faux/real love song.

Of course, then, Singing in the Rain goes on to use all these elements, didactically telling us what it is that exactly makes a good musical (and a good star)! Clear breaks in narrative structure making for glorious spectacle like "Good Morning!", where despite clear theatre-esque frontality and without so much as a camera move, the audience laps it up unquestioningly. (Well I did at least).
I do really love Singing in the Rain, though, every now and then I still find myself humming one of its tunes.

01:36 / 10.09.06

Better German word for musical theater: Gesamtkunstwerk.

The whole shebang.

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Nonossoy: And superheroes come to feast -- to taste the flesh not yet deceased....

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