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If it ain't broke, don't fix it....

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Kali, Queen of Kitteh

19:44 / 31.08.06

....or if it's slightly broken, then it's none of your concern.

I never said I didn't have issues. I do, and I think it's my stringent avoidance of them that causes me to have less than successful relationships. I tend to put up very strong walls and it makes it hard for others to get in.

I bring this up because I've started to date someone and after getting a taste of the boundaries and the defenses I put up, he's decided that he wants to help me change some of that, that he wants to make sure I don't do anything foolish to myself. I mean, on one hand I'm touched, on the other hand, I didn't ask for his help. The tone of his voice has genuine concern in it, and maybe I do need to change some things, but I think I need to do it, I don't need to have someone else do it for me.

This frustrates me because I do like this person, but I don't want to be someone's goddamn project.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

19:51 / 31.08.06

As mentioned elsewhere, when somebody else starts deciding what's wrong with me, what's wrong with me is usually that I'm spending time with them.

Less flippantly, I've been in relationships both where I've tried to "help" people and where people have tried to "help" me, and it's totally screwed the dynamic all to hell. It immediately puts the "helper" on a different level than the "helpee", and suddenly one half of the relationship is dictating behaviour -- even if it's well-intentioned, thoughtful dictating -- to the other half. That doesn't lead to an equal, mutual relationship in the long run.

OTOH, I've had wonderful relationships where both partners have identified complementary strength/weaknesses in each other and worked towards a mutual benefit. "If you help me be more spontaneous, I'll help you be more organized." That can be great. But the balance is really, really tricky.

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

19:56 / 31.08.06

To be fair, I don't think he's being patronizing in the least, I just think he has the mindset of always wanting to help people. (I suspect a good deal of it has to do with his Midwestern upbringing and his age.) I don't deny that there are some aspects of my life which make him uncomfortable, but to insist upon helping or changing things about me in the really really really early stages of this embryonic relationship makes me wary.

20:16 / 31.08.06

Yeah, that's a very tricky subject, indeed.

On on side, I can totally understand the urge to try and help those we love. But, on another side, one must be sure one is not mistaking their opinion on how a person should be with meeting a person that really needs a helping hand (He's not trying to turn you into some sort of Stepford wife, is he?)

And plus, even if a person needs help for real, they have to realise that for themselves. They have to want to be helped, otherwise it's just no use, and it will only ruin the relationship.

Anyway, if it was me, I'd be all "Hey, I'm here, you know you can count on me for anything. You only need to ask, I'll be your safety net", and then do just that: stand around and keep an eye on you to grab you if you drop. That is, if I though you need help, of course.

Do you, Kali, feel like you need to change?

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

20:22 / 31.08.06

Define change.

Tryphena Absent

20:23 / 31.08.06

Maybe you should start by asking yourself why you have such an adverse reaction to what he's said, to his offer of help, rather than focusing on the fact he said it.

Tryphena Absent

20:25 / 31.08.06

And importantly not from here maybe I do need to change some things, but I think I need to do it, I don't need to have someone else do it for me because that's still a response to him.

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

20:31 / 31.08.06

Oh, that's easy to answer.

Pride. Stupid willful pride.

My mum constantly remarks that I shun anyone helping me, even when it's apparent I could use it. I just let things get worse and worse, but never ask anyone for help.

I am a deeply flawed individual. I think this person is nuts for even wanting to get close to me.

20:53 / 31.08.06

Q: How many psychotherapists does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Only one but the light bulb really has to want to change.

I like that joke.

Kali, do you think you chose people who compliment you in the relationships you make? Do you choose good people?

Tryphena Absent

20:58 / 31.08.06

Proud people announce I am a deeply flawed individual. I think this person is nuts for even wanting to get close to me on the Internet all the time, right. Every day of the week. Maybe you should start by thinking about why your mum would say that to you.

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

20:58 / 31.08.06

I usually end up in self-destructive relationships, I won't lie about that. In fact, I recognized the behavior for what it was and decided that I didn't want to do that anymore. Of course, it meant three years of being single. So when I decided to start dating again, I screened potential dates much more carefully than I have ever done.

This guy, he's a really nice guy. Like scary nice. And I think a big part of me is freaked out because I've never had that before.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

20:59 / 31.08.06

I tend to resent people I have relationships with when they try to change me.

I also tend to realise later that they had a damn good point.

Make of that what you will- though there's also the danger that if you go along with it, you'll actually change. You may no longer be the person they wanted to be with in the first place.

Crikey, I'm cheerful tonight, aren't I?

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

21:15 / 31.08.06

I think he's particularly worried about the self-destructive behavior.

22:56 / 31.08.06

Self-destructive as in 'I am going to literally destroy myself', or more metaphorical?

Kiltartan Cross

23:07 / 31.08.06

(Fuck me, I wouldn't get past your necklace...)

I think I get where you're coming from, Kali; my advice to you would be that any changes to yourself, if they happen, will come at your own pace. Enforced change is worthless, but be as open to change as you can - listen to their ideas, but make your own decisions. And probably let them know them's the ground rules!

And that's my platitude du jour.

23:18 / 31.08.06

not knowing you personally, i'm somewhat loathe to give you advice on this topic.... but, if he helps you (not makes you) break out of destructive behaviour patterns, great! that said, being nice doesn't mean he's not being controlling as well.

00:06 / 01.09.06

I bring this up because I've started to date someone and after getting a taste of the boundaries and the defenses I put up, he's decided that he wants to help me change some of that, that he wants to make sure I don't do anything foolish to myself. I mean, on one hand I'm touched, on the other hand, I didn't ask for his help. The tone of his voice has genuine concern in it, and maybe I do need to change some things, but I think I need to do it, I don't need to have someone else do it for me.

Indeed.

Kali, dear, I know how you feel.

Just say to him, clearly, that you want a hero, and not a zero. And that it's your way, or the highway.

If he's still not paying attention by the end of your impassioned speech, give him a roofie, tie him to the bed and then go out for drinks for the next three to five days - by the time you get back, he'll have come to some sort of decision about the relationship, one way or the other, to be sure.

I'm not being facetious; this is how I married one of my husbands! You go, girl!

(List of the ideal 'medicines' available on request, but perhaps 'via PM' might be the best approach. I should stress, for example, that I've got no idea what 'a roofie' is. And that even if I did, it woud have nothing to do with the swimming pool I'm currently gazing at, or the, erm, 'mole hills' on the lawn.)

00:28 / 01.09.06

It's a terrible thing to have to think of one's own lifeskills as being a little bit on the crap side (a most uncomfortable thought, in fact) but as it's something you've noticed yourself, frankly maybe you could do with it? Trial and error with a little help from someone within the relationship mightn't go astray but perhaps it might get too instructive. I believe that you'd have to mediate very carefully how this instruction/help would take place. When/where/how this help would be deemed appropriate within the confines of the relationship without damaging the very thing itself.

01:03 / 01.09.06

... I've started to date someone and after getting a taste of the boundaries and the defenses I put up, he's decided that he wants to help me change some of that, that he wants to make sure I don't do anything foolish to myself. I mean, on one hand I'm touched, on the other hand, I didn't ask for his help. The tone of his voice has genuine concern in it, and maybe I do need to change some things, but I think I need to do it, I don't need to have someone else do it for me.

You may not have explicitly asked for his help, Kali, but I'm wondering how you did present yourself and your "issues" to this individual, if he seriously wants to ensure you don't do "anything foolish" to yourself. Depending on context, the way in which one presents one's self-destructive behaviour to another person can (appear to) signal an unconscious - and often contradictory - desire for them to intervene and assume control/responsibility for one's actions. An extreme example would be telling a partner, friend or relative that one had taken a life-threatening overdose and emphasising that they were on no account to contact the emergency services. The mere fact of confiding in someone can put them under an implicit obligation to intervene, whatever one says explicitly.

So... I'm wondering in what way you've framed your "issues", both verbally and non-verbally, to provoke this level of concern. My suspicion is that there's more ambivalence here than you're admitting to, and you may well have been communicating this to the individual in question via mixed messages.

07:31 / 01.09.06

I tend to put up very strong walls and it makes it hard for others to get in.

I bring this up because I've started to date someone and after getting a taste of the boundaries and the defenses I put up, he's decided that he wants to help me change some of that

Sort of what Ganesh said, I think. (Hello, Kali, by the way!) I think if I was dating someone who was simultaneously (a) dating me, ie saying 'I want to relate to you!' and (b) 'put[ting] up very strong walls', ie saying 'I can't relate to people!' I would probably want some sort of resolution about that. And I'd want it at an early stage of the relationship, before getting sucked into an endless round of push-me-pull-you/come-here-go-away. So... maybe you're not his 'project', maybe he's just trying to protect himself.

Ex

09:22 / 01.09.06

Also, to add to Ganesh (although possibly not in the way he intended) I've been dealing a lot with the difference between sympathetic listening and discussing to decide on an action. Obviously one does both in any relationship (work, friendship, sexing). But it can be difficult for both people if one person wants to vent/express themself/get a sympathetic ear, and the other person wants to take that information and Achieve Change/make an action plan.

I've heard this presented as a gendered difference, but I haven't seen much evidence for that.

Anyway, I have no idea what you discuss with your gentleman. I know I have been in situations where someone has been saying (in effect) 'Please listen for a bit while I get this off my chest' and I have heard 'Here's a big problem - help me address it' and then wondered why they then reject my assistance, or make any efforts towards sorting it out themselves. Very literal checking on both sides has helped, I think.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:43 / 01.09.06

Just say to him, clearly, that you want a hero, and not a zero.

Dude, she has a crush on Dead Megatron. This would clearly be a lie.

10:00 / 01.09.06

Responding to the summary more than the subject heading I guess - I've been thinking about this for a very long time. Where is the line between tolerance and submission? Between thoughtfulness and subservience?

If you feel your behaviours are damaging to you then you yourself have an impetus to change. If your partner wants to help you with it then that's great, and you can work out a way that works for both of you. On the other hand, changing yourself simply because someone else would rather you were different.... more problematic, in my opinion. You've said you have strong walls and presumably you have a reason for that? Why does he want them down? (Or is he just an inveterate 'fixer'?) Why do you? Are they really in the way?

I speak as a fixer with an unwilling fixee; my partner shows no emotions but anger, where I on the other hand would like to feel loved. We've talked about it and he knows how miserable I am. However, he can't (won't) change his behaviour. Should I expect him to? I feel his behaviour is damaging to him (to us both) - he doesn't think it's a problem. Am I tolerating too much? Or accepting his personality? Not easy questions, I think, and similar to yours.

11:25 / 01.09.06

Am I tolerating too much?

uh, if he can only show anger, I'm gonna go out a limb here and say yes.

Ex

12:29 / 01.09.06

I think it's a good an helpful thing to accept someone's personality and not see them as a project to be changed. But I think one of the logical results of that is that sometimes you then say 'OK, I've seen it, I accept it, and I don't want to be in a relationship with it.' That doesn't imply any kind of weakness of character.
If you say 'I accept X as X is! (Even though it actually makes me incredibly miserable and I can't see myself changing on that one, so I'll just stay very very miserable)' that doesn't seem like an improvement on the interfering, partner-altering model.

I know sticking at things can be a virtue, but I want to say a good word for knowing when to stop.

There are probably other people who are a better fit for your needs. And indeed, there may be people who want an angry boyfriend, and you're hogging the angry.

Good luck with the situation.

13:26 / 01.09.06

stabitha: uh, if he can only show anger, I'm gonna go out a limb here and say yes.

Uhm. It's not aimed at me - he's just one of those angry people, you know? Stress puppy. I'm more concerned about the effect on his health, frankly! It's tiresome to live with but it's not like I'm getting yelled at.

Ex: yes, this is all true. We've been together for five years, and I make the choice every day. There are many good things about the relationship and I choose to prioritise them over my desire for cuddles. Part of it is also a struggle with myself not to give up or give in, my own lesson to learn and not something imposed from outside.

Plus, I think a lot of it is about trust. He's had a rough ride and you can plainly see the joins where it's made him the way he is. Given his resistance to the idea of "doing what someone else wants" (pride, defence, fear, hello) all I do is try to carry on as normal and slowly, little by little, it may show him it's safe. (For instance, he feels ok now about showing affection to the cats).

I'm not a martyr and I don't feel like I'm Doing Good Works or anything, it's just that so far, the being-with has been worth more to me, even with spiky uncomfortable bits, than the being-without.

Sorry to derail. I have lots of stuff in my head about how we change all the time, how all our relationships change us (sometimes overtly, sometimes subtly), how our desire to please sometimes overcomes our common sense and is unsustainable; how sometimes our desire to remain fiercely ourselves tramples others' feelings underfoot. I'm just not very clever at expressing things or organising my thoughts, I'm sorry. Pass me a coffee, I'll sit here and listen.

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

17:20 / 01.09.06

I guess I can be fairly ambivalent; I don't talk about what bothers me with anyone as much as I should.

The example of self-destructive behavior that concerns this person is when he noticed the cross-hatching of scars on my inner arm. This is from years of cutting when stress and emotion become too overwhelming for me, and when he asked about them, well, there was no reason to lie. This upset him greatly.

And Flyboy, man, are you mean!

17:39 / 01.09.06

I realise this isn't a fashionable view, but I think that in any relationship, the minute you start 'expressing your feelings' you've already lost in the battle of emotions that we call life. As with showing your hand in a game of poker, letting the other people on the table know what you're thinking is always a terrible mistake.

Bottle it up and write a novel or something, is what I say - One's greivances are usually so banal when laid out surgically, in the cold light of day, that it's almost embarrassing that one had them in the first place. Far better to let these, the children of your hot, stinging brain, grow into monsters in the darkness of your lack of self-expression.

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

It never did me any harm.

Apart, I suppose, from the couple of occasions when it did. But I can't really talk about those.

17:48 / 01.09.06

Just say to him, clearly, that you want a hero, and not a zero.

Dude, she has a crush on Dead Megatron. This would clearly be a lie.

You're just envious I've been barbecrushed for my hot sexy assassin looks. You sarcastic you...

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

18:25 / 01.09.06

Bottle it up and write a novel or something, is what I say - One's greivances are usually so banal when laid out surgically, in the cold light of day, that it's almost embarrassing that one had them in the first place. Far better to let these, the children of your hot, stinging brain, grow into monsters in the darkness of your lack of self-expression.

Oh no, I write. I write fanatically. But that has never stopped the cutting.

And mock not my sexy assassin!!!!

00:19 / 02.09.06

Uhm. It's not aimed at me - he's just one of those angry people, you know? Stress puppy. I'm more concerned about the effect on his health, frankly! It's tiresome to live with but it's not like I'm getting yelled at.

ah. well, that's more understandable. not a situation i'd care to stay in though.

00:30 / 02.09.06

The example of self-destructive behavior that concerns this person is when he noticed the cross-hatching of scars on my inner arm. This is from years of cutting when stress and emotion become too overwhelming for me, and when he asked about them, well, there was no reason to lie. This upset him greatly.

Cutting does upset people, particularly if they have little (direct or indirect) experience of its use as a coping mechanism. Even if they're able to distinguish cutting-as-response-to-stress from cutting-as-suicide-attempt, it's a pretty hard thing for 'outsiders' to come to terms with. I appreciate that there was no reason to lie when asked directly, but one consequence of bearing the scars of self-harm is, I'm afraid, dealing with the concern of one's nearest and dearest.

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

13:29 / 02.09.06

I realize what you're talking about, 'Nesh. People who have never had firsthand experience with this form of self-mutilation are always either bothered by it, or, as I have found in a few instances, fairly indifferent. I realize there's not a whole lot I can do to hide the scars--and they're not huge ones, just a series of thin white lines up and down the inner forearm--but you can see them.

We went out to dinner last night and he was holding my hands. Then turned my arm up, looked at them, and frowned. The mere action made me extremely defensive and self-conscious so that I jerked my hands away. I told him if he was going to keep doing that then he'd have to deal with me being sullen and withdrawn. It makes me feel like some sort of outpatient when he does that.

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:57 / 02.09.06

Wait, so he'd already seen the scars, and then he did that in public? Jeez. Kali, I know people can't change the sort of people they're attracted to, but seriously - change the sort of people you're attracted to.

14:19 / 02.09.06

Mmm. That does sounds like a parent-child kind of dynamic - which, if it genuinely doesn't suit you in relationship terms, Kali (and you need to be sure this isn't what you're drawn to), needs to be addressed pronto.

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