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Concept Interrogation: Multiculturalism

 
  

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All Acting Regiment
13:53 / 21.08.06
So, here's a Daily Mail article about George Alagiah. A snip:

One of Britain's most prominent ethnic minority figures today attacks the excesses of multiculturalism.

BBC newsreader George Alagiah says taking the policy too far has created segregated areas like ‘apartheid’s social engineers dreamed of’ in South Africa.

He warns that race relations diktats have created ‘ring-fenced’ communities in some parts of Britain and may even be fuelling home-grown terrorism.

In an outspoken attack, the Sri Lankan-born broadcaster says segregation and deprivation have become a 'combustible combination'.

Of the 7/7 bombings last year, he says: "Whatever else motivated the suicide bombers, an alienation from the country in which they lived must surely have been a factor."

He is the latest leading ethnic minority figure to question the central planks of multiculturalism.


What's going on here? I think the Mail is fairly obviously misrepresenting Alagiah's argument, and it isn't clear whether he himself used the word "multiculturalism".

So- what does the word mean? What is "multiculturalism"? I'm thinking about the current political context at the moment, but should this be moved to the headshop it might work well there.
 
 
Ticker
14:22 / 21.08.06
I'm listening and thinking about this fabulous topic. Heavy on the listening.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:57 / 22.08.06
Yeah, this is a tricky one. I guess we could have a look at what multiculturalism might mean by having a look at the opposite- presumably, monoculturalism. Which is obviously a shibboleth. I mean, look at what the Daily Mail would probably call "white British culture"- I can tel you now that white miners from Newcastle do not share much with white stockbrokers from London...
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
20:35 / 22.08.06
I can tel you now that white miners from Newcastle do not share much with white stockbrokers from London...

Although the case in point would presumably be whether they have more in common than, say, they would with migrant Polish labourers, deprived Britons of Pakistani descent, or whichever multi- culture is in question (I'd certainly imagine that working-class people from the north east - you might have a job finding miners, thanks to Maggie - would have more in common than the stockbrokers would with either of those examples, but equally well there are major differences). It's certainly interesting to question the extent to which cultural groups perceived as homogeneous are actually so; I imagine that we need to do something similar to your example, and group by both extraction/cultural origin + employment/social class (ha!) in order to produce meaningful groups, and even then we'd need to accept that'd be deeply flawed.

I don't really see how to progress; in order to describe cultural groups we'd need to use so broad a brush as to risk stereotyping; we all do it - about ourselves at the least! - but it's a tool that has to be accepted with such a big caveat. Suggestions?
 
 
Jackie Susann
06:37 / 23.08.06
In Australia, multiculturalism is an official government policy (if you want, I can go on to explain the history - basically, it succeeds Assimilation, which succeeded White Australia). Is there any official formulation of the concept in the UK?
 
 
astrojax69
06:49 / 23.08.06
please do, jackie susann.

i think that this term 'multiculturalism' really does denote quite different concepts depending on the cultural context of the usage. i suspect asutralia and new york, fr'instance, make more similar use of the term than perhaps australia and britain, or brasil, or ... many places.

one working definition might be useful to have us talk about the same thing - or see why we are talking about a different thing!
 
 
elene
09:42 / 23.08.06
George Alagiah actually says that

We need to re-examine multiculturalism, the policy that has underpinned race relations in this country for the best part of 40 years.

We need to accept that a part of the way in which it has been implemented may have delivered something we never envisaged or intended. Otherwise, we risk a backlash that might unhinge everything that has been achieved since modern immigration to Britain began.


and what actually concerns him is ghettoisation. He feels ghettos began to form as a result of racist policies in the racist environment of the '60s and early 70's, but were then protected and enhanced as times improved, influenced by multiculturalism, rather than being dissolved at the first opportunity.

I think he has a point. Ghettos are bad. They separate, and breed people who can only live within the ghetto, who identify only with the ghetto and who can be identified with the ghetto. This has always failed and ought not to have been attempted again. Can one imagine a way in which ghettoisation might lead to greater understanding rather than internal conflict under the present circumstances?

It also seems logical that a policy that respects alternative cultures will tend to conserve the loci of such cultures. In this case, the ghettos, even when these concentrations mitigate against the integration of their inhabitants, with all of the ills that brings.

On the other hand, I don't accept that lack of opportunity and integration cause terrorism, as he seems to suggest.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:04 / 23.08.06
Wow. The Mail really did fiddle his thoughts, didn't they? It's almost as bad as when, in an English town, some Christmas lights got moved form the shopping precint ot the town hall square in order to connect to a better power source, and the Mail reported it as "Christmas lights banned because they offend Muslims"...

It also seems logical that a policy that respects alternative cultures will tend to conserve the loci of such cultures.

Or it might try and raise them up into the same level of priviledge as the dominant culture. It doesn't sound like respect to say that group X should stay in the ghetto.
 
 
elene
10:39 / 23.08.06
Or it might try and raise them up into the same level of priviledge as the dominant culture. It doesn't sound like respect to say that group X should stay in the ghetto.

Of course it should, but the ghetto is not only a desirable solution from the point of view of a xenophobic native community, but also from that of many of in the immigrant communities. If one is vulnerable it seems a viable and empowering solution, and any other way is hard. Actually it's a bit facile to look back now and say it should have been handled differently, because doing the best for people would have hurt them. Nevertheless, I'm convinced it would have been better to enforce integration from the earliest possible date by almost any means.
 
 
Future Perfect
11:19 / 23.08.06
Before I start, I should probably say that my background will have undoubtedly had an impact on my understanding of multiculturalism as it is implemented in the UK. I was born here with parents from different cultural, ethnic and religious backgrounds (not especially practising Muslim mother from Iran and Revolutionary Communist father from Sri Lanka with a Buddhist family) which always leaves me feeling quite alienated by the multiculturalism debate.

Multiculturalism as it is played out in the UK is highly problematic, I think. It's predicated on a number of assumptions that I think are unhelpful and that largely support the agenda of social conservatives.

Multiculturalism in the UK is largely about preserving cultural identity, born out of a liberal/left anxiety that 'integration' happens in a way that leaves no vestige of the home culture intact. The debate is very much about the rights of minority ethnic groups to keep their cultural traditions and develop their own communities.

Trouble is that, as others have mentioned, no culture, host or otherwise, is either this mono or this static. 'Guardians' of these cultural traditions then become the key loci of judgment over what the best approach is. But, who exactly are these 'guardians' and who gives them the right to speak for everyone? By and large they are the sorts of people you might imagine to occupy positions of 'community authority' - religious elders and businessmen. Do we really want a load of Ian Beales having such an influence on race politics in the country?

The tendency amongst these elders (I know I'm generalising!) has been to be quite conservative in their understanding of culture. There is little appreciation of the importance of genuine cultural dialogue and change in this debate. Sure, there's a public message of wanting to hear from other cultures, but, I don't feel, any genuine desire to say 'yep, our culture is going to change and yours is too and, well, that's great'. All of which is really understandable if you're older or first generation particularly.

Like, if I take my mum, increasingly she has a very preserved in aspic view of what being in Iran must be like. She misses it and romanticises it and although her sense of her home culture is probably pretty accurate to how it was when she left, it's really not like that now, as plentiful cousins will testify. For my mum though her sense of her culture acts as a counterpoint to what she doesn't like about the broader culture here (or at least how she sees it represented) even though much of what she dislikes (drinking and sex outside of marriage being the main culprits as well as slightly caricatured 'western decadence') are pretty rampant in Iran, at least amongst young metropolitans. And, in my experience she's by no means atypical.

This approach to multiculturalism has inevitably in my view created cultural ghettos (not always to do with poverty) where any change is viewed as dilution rather than genration of something new. It might be this, in part, that some of the disaffected youth within these cultures are also reacting against (but that's a bigger debate for a different thread).

Also, and I speak particularly personally now, this approach to multiculturalism is hugely alienating if you don't fit into a neat cultural grouping. There really is no-one speaking for you in public debates on these issues (I remember reading White Teeth for the first time and just being so surprised as a 30 year-old that that was the first thing I read that felt like it had some link to my experiences of growing up non-white in the UK).

And there really is no sign that this approach is waning despite the tensions it causes between those people in our societies that are so insecure about their own idenitities (black and white) that they feel the need to protect them against the perceived threat of change at any cost. You know, we still pander to these attitudes with faith schools and the like.

Anyway, some thoughts and a bit of a rant (apologies for that!)
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:50 / 24.08.06
Trouble is that, as others have mentioned, no culture, host or otherwise, is either this mono or this static. 'Guardians' of these cultural traditions then become the key loci of judgment over what the best approach is. But, who exactly are these 'guardians' and who gives them the right to speak for everyone? By and large they are the sorts of people you might imagine to occupy positions of 'community authority' - religious elders and businessmen. Do we really want a load of Ian Beales having such an influence on race politics in the country?

and-

And there really is no sign that this approach is waning despite the tensions it causes between those people in our societies that are so insecure about their own idenitities (black and white) that they feel the need to protect them against the perceived threat of change at any cost. You know, we still pander to these attitudes with faith schools and the like.

I've heard this mentioned before, and it seems like a serious problem- not only does it favour the conservative parts of the minority cultures, it also gives fuel to the right-wing parts of the majority culture. I wonder what strategies there are for making sure that all members of the minority are represented- the people who want to change, the queer members etc.
 
 
Saturn's nod
10:05 / 26.08.06
Is it acceptable to join in without having read the whole article in the Daily Mail? I'm very interested in what posters here have been writing. Multiculturalism is my favourite thing, the way I understand the term. In the use of bell hooks and others, multiculturalism's a strategic political and pedagogical stance for dismantling white supremacy. It's obvious that's not how it's being used above, but I wanted to put in something about a different way I know to use the term.

Mutliculturalism as I understand it means dismantling the invisible/unmarked "white" culture, by getting each person to engage from an awareness of what their culture consists of, whether that's particular ways of knowing, particular ways of using language, or their family's traditional rituals like roast dinners or christmas trees. No two families in the whole world have quite the same rules about what makes something clean, or dirty, or how to celebrate a special occasion. Once we're honest about that we can stop trying to pretend that there is a monoculture.

Dismantling the (illusion of) monoculture is essential because to me the monoculture - in education particularly - is a racket which privileges certain kinds of voices at the cost of suppressing and othering the majority. Humans at this time of planetary ecological crisis can't afford to be missing 70% of the voices who might be able to generate solutions, so dismantling that monoculture is an essential and urgent political activity.

I think the ones who object most to the assault on white supremacy are those who are most invested and have gained most by the illusion of monoculture; those who are being asked for the first time to situate themselves, rather than those who have always been 'othered' and thus identifiable ('marked') with respect to the monoculture. The UK is a great place to do this, because we are here in a group of islands who have always been inhabited by multiple races in the process of readjustment: whether your folks got off the boat this year, last year, a hundred years ago or ten thousand years ago is not ultimately that relevant. The heritage of the islands and their riches belong to any of us who choose to inhabit consciously.

So, to my mind, multicultural education is a tool of engagement which has the potential to work against the maintenance of ghettos, by giving people better choices about how and where they want to live. If everyone can read, write and speak in their own voice, we can create the kind of social mobility which allows a genuine choice of neighbourhood. The process of acknowledging the multiculture we actually live in has the power to bring each of us to voice, for each of us to connect with the power we have in creating the culture around us.

I'm really interested in the point about patriarchs as the only acknowlegded speakers from ethnic minorities: reminds me of bell hooks' essay 'Ain't I still a woman', in which she highlights the way patriarchy is sometimes pushed as a solution to the problems faced by black people. I'd argue alongside her that education for literacy, as readers, writers and thinkers, and in critical thought, (when it engages us as practitioners of culture rather than just as empty buckets for the wisdom of the ages to be poured in) has the potential to overcome the problems of white supremacy and patriarchy.

As I see it ghettos are a manifestation of white supremacy: the attacks of racism maintain the defensive posture and decreased access to resources. When we educate each other towards consciousness and mobility, we're giving ourselves the chance to be speakers and leaders, to shape what comes next instead of being passively carried along by the mistakes of previous generations.
 
 
sleazenation
11:05 / 26.08.06
Saturn's Nod

I was a little confused by your post and am hoping you could clarify. You start of by worrying the notion of a single cohesive 'white' monoculture, but later you seem to buy into a perpetuation of the same in the guise of 'white supremacy' - am I missing something?

I guess the question is who is 'white' in a 'white supremacy'.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:19 / 26.08.06
I'm also interested in what you have to say, SN, though I'm not sure I entirely understand it. Can you clarify, for instance, what the monoculture in education is, and how it operates?
 
 
Saturn's nod
15:13 / 26.08.06
sleaze:

I don't think I have been contradictory: I'll try to explain what I mean more clearly. The way I see it, there's an "old paradigm", in which there is a white/straight/patriachal monoculture which I call white supremacy. This monoculture is what allows the situation & embodiment of e.g. white/straight/men to be invisible whereas everyone else is marked out by their nonmembership, whether that is women, gay people, or men with different skin colours. White supremacy is what I mean by the monoculture. This white monoculture is the "everything outside" against which ghettos are contrasted.

One of the ways I perceive to destroy white supremacy is to dismantle the monoculture, by for example exposing its illusory nature: enabling everyone to recognise their situation and to speak from it demonstrates that in fact there is no such monoculture.


Lurid:

The educational establishments with which I am most familiar - a few Russell Group universities and a research institute in the UK - show a clear pattern of bias toward the advancement of white men at the expense of women, and men from ethnic minorities.

From my analysis drawing on experience both as a student and now as a teacher, unexamined & lazy teaching styles continue to reproduce this bias in subsequent generations of students, and changing teaching styles is one of the keys to overturning white supremacy and patriarchy.

That has led me towards the engaged pedagogy hooks, Paulo Friere & others recommend. Further reading: bell hooks, 'Teaching to transgress' in particular & before that Freire's 'Pedagogy of the oppressed'.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:15 / 26.08.06

The educational establishments with which I am most familiar - a few Russell Group universities and a research institute in the UK - show a clear pattern of bias toward the advancement of white men at the expense of women, and men from ethnic minorities.


So I guess I know a little about those sorts of places too, or at least I have had some experience with them....but I'm not sure I recognise what you are talking about. True, the institutions are largely staffed by white middle class men, but this isn't clearly the result of overt discrimination. (I'd say that there are plausible mechanisms which explain how wealth improves success in education, which might explain much of what one sees, though clearly not all.)

I read through your two links, SN, but I'm not very much the wiser about how the "banking" concept of education really applies, for example. I'm also not clear, as a teacher, what teaching styles would help overturn patriarchy and white supremacy - though, in my experience, there is a huge science versus humanities divide in these sorts of questions.
 
 
Saturn's nod
15:24 / 27.08.06
Addressing Lurid Archive's first point:

Lurid Archive wrote:True, the institutions are largely staffed by white middle class men, but this isn't clearly the result of overt discrimination.

To me, attempting to fill in the implied request ("isn't clearly the result of") would be like trying to prove the presence of the nose on my face: the evidence is overwhelming in every way. However, I don't know what your beliefs and hence what your convincement procedures are, so it's hard to see what kind of evidence might be missing for you.

The traditional route towards political consciousness as I understand it is a consciousness raising group: in meeting with others and developing the art of listening creatively to really understand how it is for each other, it becomes obvious how racist and sexist attacks wound and cripple those who are subject to them.

What can we agree on that would constitute evidence to you of racism and sexism in the academy, or indeed in wider society? Or is it that you acknowledge the existence of racism and sexism but don't believe that they affect the staffing of the institutions? As I say I don't know what kind of evidence it is which you would need.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
18:10 / 27.08.06
To me, attempting to fill in the implied request ("isn't clearly the result of") would be like trying to prove the presence of the nose on my face: the evidence is overwhelming in every way.

I'm afraid you will have to prove that white males actively and overtly discriminate against others in the hiring/admissions practices of academia, otherwise it reads like any other 'common sense' or 'obvious' statement about the qualities of a particular race and gender ("Obviously the Jews are good with money", "It's as plain as the nose on my face that a woman's place is in the home" etc.)
One way you could prove this, to my satisfaction at least, would be to show that of a group of students with the exact same academic qualifications, female and non-white students are more likely to be turned down for the exact same position in an academic environment.
 
 
sleazenation
23:59 / 27.08.06
This monoculture is what allows the situation & embodiment of e.g. white/straight/men to be invisible whereas everyone else is marked out by their nonmembership, whether that is women, gay people, or men with different skin colours. White supremacy is what I mean by the monoculture. This white monoculture is the "everything outside" against which ghettos are contrasted.

I don’t think you’ve really elucidated what you mean by ‘white supremacy’ though, at least, not to me. You see, the problem I have with the use of ‘white supremacy’ is that it appears to imply that there is some sort of unified organising principle at work – some single, easily identifiable thing (which can and should be fought) and this thing being a white/straight/patriarchy. We most definitely are living in a society that privileges whiteness, straightness and maleness, but these are not single uncomplicated and unified concepts, either taken individually or all together.

I’ll attempt to illustrate what I mean. You talk of the monoculture as being the thing against which all else (gender, race, sexual orientation etc.) is defined and othered, against which the ghettos are contrasted. But what about the Jewish ghettos? Were they not white? How about the ghettos of Poles living in London (and around the country) – how about any of the other groups of East Europeans living in together in groups in Britain? How do these fit within a definition of ‘white supremacy?’

My problem with this notion of ‘white supremacy’ is that it doesn’t seem to acknowledge that even within ‘whiteness’ there is stratification and othering going on, and on grounds that are not limited to gender, colour and sexual orientation…
 
 
Jackie Susann
01:02 / 28.08.06
Okay, I am cross-posting to way up thread where I mentioned multiculturalism as official state policy in Australia.

Some of you probably know that the first act passed by the Australian parliament, back in 1901, was the White Australia act. It banned all immigrants, save white English speakers. It was enforced with a 'dictation test', which would be given to anybody trying to enter Australian the customs officials didn't like the look of. If the would-be immigrant passed the test in English, the customs official would re-apply it in a different language - often Swahili - and keep going until they got the result they wanted. At the same time, nonwhite folk already living in Australia were repatriated - even those who had lived been born here, or were married to white Australians. Many of those repatriated had been brought to Australia in the first place as indentured labour. It was a pretty crappy policy.

It started to come apart after WWII, when then-immigration minister Arthur Caldwell decided to admit other European immigrants to repopulate the country. The earliest immigrants under this policy were mostly Jewish refugees, Greeks and Italians. White Australia continued to weaken, and was formally dissolved in the 1970s. The 1960s also boasted a national referendum that, in effect, made indigenous Australians citizens (which they had not been to that time).

With growing numbers of nonwhite immigrants, successive governments adopted a policy of Assimilation, meaning migrants from diverse backgrounds were welcome as long as they adopted to quote-unquote Australian ways of life. This didn't really hold up to well, its a pretty obviously self-defeating policy, and before too long it was replaced with Multiculturalism. This effectively meant that the government recognised that Australia already housed a range of cultures, and that it was unrealistic to believe everyone could be shoe-horned into a supposedly monolithic Australian identity.

It was a controversial policy, first adopted by the Labor Party in the 80s. When the conservatives entered government in 96, they rhetorically distanced themselves from the policy - they were riding an anti-PC wave - but didn't move to change it (although there were pretty vicious cutbacks to welfare, support and self-determination programs for minorities). After a term or two in government, they quit caring and now pretty happily refer to Australian multiculturalism. It doesn't mean much, because they are disgusting racist fucks.

Please note, I did not check any references writing that so I might have some dates or facts slightly wrong. It's about right, though.
 
 
Saturn's nod
09:16 / 28.08.06
Phex:

Wenneras & Wold 1997 is the one I have come across most often, perhaps because it's in such a high profile journal; 'Nepotism and sexism in peer review'; Nature 387, 341 - 343 (22 May 1997); doi:10.1038/387341a0 ; they found an amount of evidence of discrimination, most commonly represented as the finding that women needed to have around 2.5 times as much academic productivity to be considered equally competent.

Ben Barres' Commentary last month in Nature 442, 133-136(13 July 2006) | doi:10.1038/442133a; might also be of interest: some quotes from it:

"Like many women and minorities, however, I am suspicious when those who are at an advantage proclaim that a disadvantaged group of people is innately less able. Historically, claims that disadvantaged groups are innately inferior have been based on junk science and intolerance6. Despite powerful social factors that discourage women from studying maths and science from a very young age7, there is little evidence that gender differences in maths abilities exist, are innate or are even relevant to the lack of advancement of women in science8. A study of nearly 20,000 maths scores of children aged 4 to 18, for instance, found little difference between the genders (Fig. 1)9, and, despite all the social forces that hold women back from an early age, one-third of the winners of the elite Putnam Math Competition last year were women. Moreover, differences in maths-test results are not correlated with the gender divide between those who choose to leave science10. I will explain why I believe that the Larry Summers Hypothesis amounts to nothing more than blaming the victim, why it is so harmful to women, and what can and should be done to help women advance in science."
...
"Many studies, summarized in Virginia Valian's excellent book Why So Slow?11, have demonstrated a substantial degree of bias against women — more than is sufficient to block women's advancement in many professions. Here are a few examples of bias from my own life as a young woman. As an undergrad at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), I was the only person in a large class of nearly all men to solve a hard maths problem, only to be told by the professor that my boyfriend must have solved it for me. I was not given any credit. I am still disappointed about the prestigious fellowship competition I later lost to a male contemporary when I was a PhD student, even though the Harvard dean who had read both applications assured me that my application was much stronger (I had published six high-impact papers whereas my male competitor had published only one). Shortly after I changed sex, a faculty member was heard to say "Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but then his work is much better than his sister's."

Anecdotes, however, are not data, which is why gender-blinding studies are so important11. These studies reveal that in many selection processes, the bar is unconsciously raised so high for women and minority candidates that few emerge as winners. For instance, one study found that women applying for a research grant needed to be 2.5 times more productive than men in order to be considered equally competent (Fig. 2)12[this is the Wenneras and Wold study]. Even for women lucky enough to obtain an academic job, gender biases can influence the relative resources allocated to faculty, as Nancy Hopkins discovered when she and a senior faculty committee studied this problem at MIT. The data were so convincing that MIT president Charles Vest publicly admitted that discrimination was responsible. For talented women, academia is all too often not a meritocracy.
"

"There is no scientific support, either, for the contention that women are innately less competitive (although I believe powerful curiosity and the drive to create sustain most scientists far more than the love of competition). However, many girls are discouraged from sports for fear of being labelled tomboys. A 2002 study did find a gender gap in competitiveness in financial tournaments, but the authors suggested that this was due to differences in self confidence rather than ability15. Indeed, again and again, self confidence has been pointed to as a factor influencing why women 'choose' to leave science and engineering programmes. When women are repeatedly told they are less good, their self confidence falls and their ambitions dim16. This is why Valian has concluded that simply raising expectations for women in science may be the single most important factor in helping them make it to the top11."
...
"Disadvantaged people are wondering why privileged people are brushing the truth under the carpet. If a famous scientist or a president of a prestigious university is going to pronounce in public that women are likely to be innately inferior, would it be too much to ask that they be aware of the relevant data? It would seem that just as the bar goes way up for women applicants in academic selection processes, it goes way down when men are evaluating the evidence for why women are not advancing in science. That is why women are angry. It is incumbent upon those proclaiming gender differences in abilities to rigorously address whether suspected differences are real before suggesting that a whole group of people is innately wired to fail."

...

"Because of evaluation bias, women and minorities are at a profound disadvantage in such competitive selection unless the processes are properly designed11,12,14,18. As the revamped NIH Pioneer Award demonstrates, a few small changes can make a significant difference in outcome. By simply changing the procedure so that anyone can self-nominate and by ensuring a highly diverse selection committee, the number of women and minority winners went up to more than 50% from zero. This lesson can and should now be applied to other similar processes for scientific awards, grants and faculty positions. Alas, too many selection committees still show a striking lack of diversity — with typically greater than 90% white males. When selection processes are run fairly, reverse discrimination is not needed to attain a fair outcome."

"References:
1 Summers, L. Letter to the Faculty Regarding NBER Remarks http://www.president.harvard.edu/speeches/summers/2005/facletter.html (2005).
2 The Science of Gender and Science. Pinker vs. Spelke: A Debate http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/debate05/debate05_index.html (2005).
3 Lawrence, P. A. PLoS Biol. 4, 13–15 (2006). | Article | ChemPort |
4 Baron-Cohen, S. The Essential Difference: Men, Women, and the Extreme Male Brain (Allen Lane, London, 2003).
5 Mansfield, H. Manliness (Yale Univ. Press, New Haven, 2006).
6 Gould, S. J. The Mismeasure of Man (W. W. Norton & Co, New York, 1996).
7 Steele, C. M. Am. Psychol. 52, 613–629 (1997). | Article | PubMed | ChemPort |
8 Spelke, E. S. Am. Psychol. 60, 950–958 (2005). | Article | PubMed |
9 Leahey, E. & Guo, G. Soc. Forces 80.2, 713–732 (2001).
10 Xie, Y. & Shauman, K. Women in Science: Career Processes and Outcomes (Harvard Univ. Press, Cambridge, 2003).
11 Valian, V. Why So Slow? (MIT Press, Cambridge, 1998).
12 Wennerås, C. & Wold, A. Nature 387, 341–343 (1997). | Article | PubMed | ISI | ChemPort |
13 Rhode, D. L. Speaking of Sex: The Denial of Gender Inequality (Harvard Univ. Press, Cambridge, 1997).
14 Carnes, M. et al. J. Womens Health 14, 684–691 (2005). | Article |
15 Gneezy, U. , Niederle, M. & Rustichini, A. Q. J. Econ. 18, 1049–1074 (2003).
16 Fels, A. Necessary Dreams (Pantheon Press, New York, 2004).
17 Pinker, S. New Repub. 15 (14 Feb, 2005).
18 Moody, J. Faculty Diversity: Problems and Solutions (Taylor and Francis, New York, 2004).
19 Petsko, G. A. Genome Biol. 6, 1–3 (2005).
"
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:59 / 28.08.06
Good post, SN. Many of these issues were discussed here. In particular, there was a discussion of a debate between Pinker and Spelke on why there aren't more women in the sciences, which is an interesting read. Let me quote one bit, from Spelke's part (who supports the idea that the gender imbalance in the sciences is down to social forces):


I will give you one last version of a gender-labeling study. This one hits particularly close to home. The subjects in the study were people like Steve and me: professors of psychology, who were sent some vitas to evaluate as applicants for a tenure track position. Two different vitas were used in the study. One was a vita of a walk-on-water candidate, best candidate you've ever seen, you would die to have this person on your faculty. The other vita was a middling, average vita among successful candidates. For half the professors, the name on the vita was male, for the other half the name was female. People were asked a series of questions: What do you think about this candidate's research productivity? What do you think about his or her teaching experience? And finally, Would you hire this candidate at your university?

For the walk-on-water candidate, there was no effect of gender labeling on these judgments. I think this finding supports Steve's view that we're dealing with little overt discrimination at universities. It's not as if professors see a female name on a vita and think, I don't want her. When the vita's great, everybody says great, let's hire.

What about the average successful vita, though: that is to say, the kind of vita that professors most often must evaluate? In that case, there were differences. The male was rated as having higher research productivity. These psychologists, Steve's and my colleagues, looked at the same number of publications and thought, "good productivity" when the name was male, and "less good productivity" when the name was female. Same thing for teaching experience. The very same list of courses was seen as good teaching experience when the name was male, and less good teaching experience when the name was female. In answer to the question would they hire the candidate, 70% said yes for the male, 45% for the female. If the decision were made by majority rule, the male would get hired and the female would not.

A couple other interesting things came out of this study. The effects were every bit as strong among the female respondents as among the male respondents. Men are not the culprits here. There were effects at the tenure level as well. At the tenure level, professors evaluated a very strong candidate, and almost everyone said this looked like a good case for tenure. But people were invited to express their reservations, and they came up with some very reasonable doubts. For example, "This person looks very strong, but before I agree to give her tenure I would need to know, was this her own work or the work of her adviser?" Now that's a perfectly reasonable question to ask. But what ought to give us pause is that those kinds of reservations were expressed four times more often when the name was female than when the name was male.


This tallies much more with my experience than your anecdotes of overt discrimination, SN. (I suspect that things have changed a great deal in the last 30 years - not sure when your anecdote dates from.) No one wants to discriminate against a more talented candidate, since such a decision usually goes against the self interest of the hirer.

I accept that sexism and racism exist, of course, but these are complicated effects we are talking about. Still I'd like to read the Nature article before saying too much more - I can't seem to access it atm...
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:14 / 28.08.06
OK, got the Nature article now. Wow, that is pretty extreme and rather conclusive. I'd still maintain that this is unlikely to be because of *overt* discrimination, and the article itself says "we are not confident that a simple increase in the percentage of women reviewers would solve the problem of gender-based discrimination". So while the conclusion is solid, a solution is less clear.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:56 / 28.08.06
Am I missing something, or are we really doing the whole "White privilege? What white privilege? Prove it!" thing again?
 
 
sleazenation
20:31 / 28.08.06
No, I don't think we are...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:42 / 28.08.06
No, I don't think we are...

Then why did you need clarification and an academic study to show you?

Saturn's post was simple and frankly questions like this how about any of the other groups of East Europeans living in together in groups in Britain? How do these fit within a definition of ‘white supremacy?’ seem horribly naive to me. Take a walk through a big train station in London. White, Polish retail workers are being employed over non-white people in this city. They must be because the people they're employing has changed dramatically over the past year.


If the bias Saturn is addressing didn't exist then there wouldn't be more white men working in high level positions and earning higher wages in almost every role in this country. The very idea that this is female choice and that exists apart from expectation of employers is a fallacy. Do you honestly believe that less women want to be magazine publishers, television producers, corporate directors, research scientists? That they want their paintings to sell for less than their male counterparts? That less black men want to be politicians or councillors? That these people have smaller ambitions?

True, the institutions are largely staffed by white middle class men, but this isn't clearly the result of overt discrimination

That institutions are largely staffed by white middle class men is the clearest evidence that discrimination is at work.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:05 / 29.08.06
That institutions are largely staffed by white middle class men is the clearest evidence that discrimination is at work.

Is it? I always think about Horowitz campaign for academic freedom in these things. Put simply, his view is that the lack of conservatives (republicans, really) in academia is clear evidence that discrimination is at work and that this should be redressed. Now, no one takes Horowitz at all seriously, and the claim is rather silly. But....he probably is right that Republicans are under-represented in academia. Of course, one might respond that Republicans are hardly a minority group in need of protection, making the whole exercise absurd - to which there are two Devil's advocate responses. Firstly, if gender imbalance is sufficient to detect sexism why isn't it enough here? And secondly, why can't discrimination be locally, rather than societally, situated?

I'm not trying to argue that Horowitz is right, but his argument does highlight the problems with taking an overly simplistic view of these things. So, for instance, the sexism present in academia is a complicated phenomenon if it is the product of female as well as male reviewers.

To make one last point, as far as I know, lower or working class people are quite under represented in academia (socio-economic class is probably best here, but most definitions of class overlap quite a lot). Part of the reason that class is mentioned much less than issues of race and gender in these sorts of debate is that few people believe that there is much if any overt classism at work, even though a naive reading of some figures would suggest that it is a problem which is as bad if not worse than gender bias, say. Its tricky, is all I'm saying.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:23 / 29.08.06
few people believe that there is much if any overt classism at work

Really? Are these issues not in fact actually quite commonly discussed in even the popular press - e.g. regular 'controversies' about pupils not being accepted to universities, regardless of grades, due to attending public or comprehensive schools (i.e. a form of affirmatie action vs. traditional discrimination)?

We've moved hopelessly off-topic here. Perhaps a new thread on discrimination in academia or the lack thereof should be started.
 
 
Olulabelle
16:46 / 29.08.06
I think a new topic would be an excellent idea. Saturn's Nod has raised some very interesting issues.
 
 
Saturn's nod
12:58 / 07.09.06
> Lurid Archive wrote:So, for instance, the sexism present in
academia is a complicated phenomenon if it is the product of female as well as male reviewers.


This seems blindingly obvious to me, I'll see if I can explain why in just a moment.

First I want to acknowledge that it's really hard to hear this stuff, and hard to write it as well. I think it's a feature of Barbelith's success in being a space where homophobia and transphobia are not tolerated that makes racism and sexism such an issue: because one aspect of resistance is being collectively exerted against the culture of dominance, pesky feminists and anti-racist activists think it's worth trying to speak here.

But back to the above quote: sexism is perpetuated by both men and via the internalised oppressor inside the minds of women; racism is carried out by both white people and via the internalised oppressor inside the minds of black people; the damage to people the oppressed classes in each case is more obvious than the damage happening to the people in the dominant class.

Oppression always has been perpetrated by colonised members of
subjected classes as well as by members of dominating classes. There are major payoffs involved in accepting status as a second-class member of the dominant regime - you get to be an honorary white guy and everyone politely tries to excuse the ways you don't fit the mould, and you get to have some success as long as the bits that don't fit don't stick out too much. It doesn't matter as much if you are not white and male as long as you act as if you are, and speak white male discourse as if you are a birthright member of it.

This is related to multiculturalism: I think it is useful to bring in contexts from outside the board, and I volunteered this one in frustration. It is boring to be apparently having Feminism 101 again but if it hasn't worked so far I guess it's needed.

Someone who has experienced oppressive prejudice their whole lives is less likely to have produced that walk-on-water cv you mention.
Oppression manifests as a lack of confidence of people who have been told all their lives that people like them can't do x and are not worthy of y, as well as in the attitudes of those who decide from their privileged perspective that the experience of those who are subjected to (for example) racism and sexism is not relevant evidence for its existence.

Racism can't only be dismantled by exerting social disapproval on
people who are consciously and deliberately racist, though that is necessary. I would say at least two other fronts of action are also necessary: consciousness raising both amongst people who experience the oppression of racism, and consciousness raising amongst white people about how racism operates unconsciously. That consciousness-raising process is what's necessary now - as I understand it - to go the other 90% of the way towards levelling the playing field. It involves listening to others, and trying to genuinely understand what their experience is, especially if they are speaking to you up the gradient of systematic oppression.

Here is some testimony about how sexism acts on women: at Unfogged and A White Bear. The insights contained in those posts are not new, and are not the work of just one writer: they're based in liberatory political analysis sewn together over decades by activists. The feminist cause has benefitted hugely from the labour of black feminists in pointing out how white feminists have enacted racism: Tia's points about how to be a feminist ally if you are a man are the harvest from joint labour between black and white feminists, as well as queer and disability activists about how to dismantle all kinds of oppression. When accounts of experience are dismissed as anecdotal it's wilfully ignoring the sound critical basis of these accounts: they are subjective in a way which puts critical analysis in context in order to communicate more effectively.

I'm tired now, and I'll admit I avoided the thread with the Larry Summers-style title because of tiredness as well: having to deal with that kind of stupid crap in the rest of life makes it not fun to start again explaining it in my leisure time. Or in alas's words in that thread:

Still: Fuck. fuck. fuck. fuck. fuck. fuck. fuck. Jesus guys, I get tired.

I'd venture a prediction that Barbelith is not going to represent
equal contributions from non-(white males) until the white males in question stop occupying a defended territory of privilege. It seems to me that those who are busy claiming the unmarked category in race and gender are exerting their dominance by claiming the right to decide that their situatedness is irrelevant: a decision that those who belong to the marked categories have not been socialised to assume as their right. As I perceive it, that's what white supremacy and patriarchy consist of: those in the unmarked category exert their dominance (in insisting on the right to frame the terms of the debate) over those who have been rigourously trained by systematic oppression to doubt their right to speak or to have their opinions make any difference, for example as to the matter of what is considered important.

That's why it's relevant whether white men continue to insist that
Barbelith is to them a space magically free of race and gender in a way that I assure you, it just isn't if you are not white and male.

One impression I have of Barbelith is that any time racism and sexism come into discussions the same circus arises: white men repeatedly question the existence and relevance of those concepts, and silence any people who are not white and male through simple exhaustion from educational labours. I don't think it's entirely nonproductive to go through the exercise - in this labour I guess I am becoming a more experienced activist - but it's not actually fun:. And here's a plea: don't kid yourself that you are helping to make an inclusive diverse community when you are requesting a lesson in basic anti-sexist/anti-racist discourse yet again. I recognise that I haven't put examples here of that happening, but Flyboy's comment above indicates that I am not the only one who has that impression.

I notice that the Racism thread has surfaced in Policy so I'll link to it here; Feminism 101 is still around in Conversation as well and highly relevant: as I've understood it, multiculturalism is the major (though clearly little understood!) fruit of anti-sexist, anti-racist, queer, and disability studies labours over decades. ("White privilege" and "Male privilege" checklists might be of interest for those unconvinced of advantages of belonging to dominant classes.)
 
 
grant
15:45 / 07.09.06
Observation: It might be worthwhile to define what is meant by "overt" in the above comments.

Part of my understanding of these issues (particularly as embodied in the marvelous Invisible Knapsack essay/list, linked just above) is that they're overt on one level -- you can clearly see the results -- but covert on another. The knapsack is invisible; whiteness is "default" and thus unexamined.

The mechanisms by which the process operates are as plain as the nose on my face -- but I can't see my own nose.

(Did the italics help? They were fun.)
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:03 / 07.09.06
So are we carrying on here? I'm inclined to allow the drift, simply because the original topic wasn't moving that fast anyway.

Observation: It might be worthwhile to define what is meant by "overt" in the above comments.

Sure. By "overt" I meant a conscious and direct discrimination based on, for example, gender. I personally think that the model where everyone is sexist is convincing to an extent, though the solutions that SN proposes seem pretty complicated to me. That is, it is hard to see how exposure to a minority group, and a willingness to listen to different perspectives is really going to be that effective if the oppression we are talking about is also internalised by that group. For a start, listening to different experiences seems to suggest applying notions of false consciousness - unless I've got the wrong end of the stick - which could actually end up dismissing certain minority group opinions.

I'd venture a prediction that Barbelith is not going to represent
equal contributions from non-(white males) until the white males in question stop occupying a defended territory of privilege. - SN


I'd like to do so, SN. But I'm really not sure how. Short of not responding, it isn't clear to me how to respond. You clearly feel that this has all been laid out to any reasonable person's satisfaction, and that objections at this stage are resistance to change and defence of privilege. I disagree, and I'm fairly clear in my mind why I disagree (partly, there is a certain circularity, and partly the bar is set too low since I can see different arguments applied in analagous situations. My comparisons with class and Horowitz liberal bias above weren't at all flippant, and I am very far from ignoring my own anecdotally collected minority opinion.). I don't want to question the relevance of concepts such as sexism and racism, but I do question the exact nature of their applicability.

If that amounts to silencing others, I'll back down of course because I concede that I am in a position of privilege.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:17 / 08.09.06
I don't know if it's so much "silencing" as much as "hindering", Lurid. Now, I’d like to apologise in advance if the next couple of paragraphs involve speculating too much on your own motivations and thought processes – correct me if I’m wrong about any of this.

I do believe that you essentially have very good intentions - I think you have an instinct towards empirical rigour, and you want to test all claims of inequality/priviledge/discrimination for soundness in a sort of scientific manner, even though I think you also instinctively sympathise with them. But there are various reasons why that's problematic.

I think the really frustrating thing is that there are always going to be plenty of people who say “White privilege? Prove it!” with much less benign intentions. You probably think that in threads like this, you are working to ensure that there is a watertight response to that accusation. But it feels like instead, you’re doing those people’s work for them, knocking people who are working to address inequality back down to square one, and leaving them thoroughly discouraged. It makes it impossible to have more complicate discussions like “is strategy X to combat existing white privilege working, or is counter-productive?” Now, you might very well argue that the danger if you don’t do this is that people will start building on a faulty assumption. But I don’t think you really think that the idea that there are existing structures of inequality across pretty much every aspect of our lives is a faulty assumption – do you?
 
 
Never or Now!
00:24 / 09.09.06
It makes it impossible to have more complicate discussions like “is strategy X to combat existing white privilege working, or is counter-productive?”

Impossible? Presumably you could start a thread titled “is strategy X to combat existing white privilege working, or is counter-productive?” and state, in the abstract and first post, that discussion of whether or not "white privilege" exists will not be tolerated in-thread, and should be taken elsewhere.
 
 
sleazenation
11:44 / 09.09.06
I’m not sure how much that can usefully be said on this subject at this juncture, particularly if statements can be attacked, ignored, marginalized or 'hindered' on an essentialist basis. Such an approach is simply casting a one-dimensional view of a complex multi-dimension issue.

I think I disagree with flyboy on a number of different levels. Firstly, I don’t think it’s justifiable to attempt to hold Lurid to account for positions he is not espousing, and particularly unjustifiable to castigate him for ‘doing the work of’ people who are questioning the existence of white privilidge. Secondly I still think it is necessary to interrogate the notion of ‘white privilidge’ and its variants (white male privilidge, wealthy white male privilidge etc. etc.), which are currently being thrown around with abandon. I don’t think it is a simple uncomplicated issue and it requires rigorous and vigorous examination to determine things such as its taxonomy, its extent, how it operates etc. Anything less would be to do a disservice to us all, setting the critical bar lower for some than for others. It is a thorny debate, certainly, and I don’t think it is even as simple as a dichotomy between equality Vs attempts to privilidge the previously under-privilidged, since, as I think Haus pointed out, a movement towards equality necessarily involves a loss of privilidge for some – who can effectively judge equality? – I’m sure some would even argue that even if such a thing were possible it would not be desirable, claiming that a historical lack of privilidge needs to be answered with redistributed privilidge in the previously disempowered groups favour…

It makes it impossible to have more complicate discussions like “is strategy X to combat existing white privilege working, or is counter-productive?”

There is currently a thread in the switchboard that broaches this very topic, on this thread about the conservative party. One point of view that came up was that the conservative party’s essential appeal was to privilidge old white males and as such was a bit of a hopeless project, but I guess that is a bit beside the point.

The point being that such debates are possible.
 
  

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