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Using Ordeals for Worship and Magic

 
  

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Ticker
14:59 / 11.08.06
To begin with it's my hope that this thread will serve as a place for education and productive dialogue. The use of Pain/Suffering/Blood in ritual is assuredly one of the most complex and challenging topics for people who share a tradition let alone those from varied backgrounds to discuss. I believe it is a very important topic for two reasons, the first being that this work is inherently dangerous on many levels and the second that there appears to be a general increase in those utilizing it.

It is my opinion that aspects of this work can be found in most religious/spiritual doctrines. While I do agree that many of the techniques have been used by abusive power structures, I also believe that this is a result of the deep recognition of the power of these activities on the individual. Simply put because a tool has been used for evil purposes does not automatically make the tool evil. A very wise person once told me that anything and everything can be reclaimed if we believe it so.

That said, I am not advocating this work for the majority. Rather I suspect there are those folks who gravitate towards these methods and those who do not. I do not use all of the techniques I am aware of as not all suit my needs and my purposes.

I do ask that all participating in this dialogue keep in mind we are discussing Sacred & Holy ideas for some as well as Socially Repugnant & Morally Perverse for others.

Some ideas to get us moving:

" Primitive cultures have used physical and emotional and sexual ordeals in order to achieve altered states a lot more often than we modern westerners would like to admit. We can utilize some of their techniques, but their contexts are often opaque to us, as we weren't raised in their tribal culture. We need to create our own set of ordeal rituals that resound with our experiences and yet do not partake of the negative materialism in our society. Indeed, they should ideally be an antidote to it." -Raven Kaldera

The Ordeal Path: Introduction to Neo-Pagan BDSM

Other Barbelith Threads of note:
The Sight of Blood

BDSM and Magic(k)

"Perhaps more persuasive is the evident Crowleyan obsession with Christian-Victorian ideas about the value of suffering, and the importance of doing things that are painful or repulsive. It is time to start anew and throw the garbage out. "

Forbidden Commentary: Sexism in Crowley and Thelema? a critique of sexism in the teachings of the OTO trouser the trouserian posted in the Sexism in Magic thread.


"The sexuality & violence serve as metaphors in a poem which acts directly on consciousness through the Image-ination - or else in the correct circumstances they can be openly deployed & enjoyed, embued with a sense of the holiness of every thing from ecstasy & wine to garbage & corpses." -Hakim Bey


It is my opinion that the ethical problems are in the abuse of masochistic and guilt derived urges not automatically in certain actions which may involve pain.

However here are some informative links on Self Harm/Self Injury (SI)

Self Harm/Injury

Etiology of Self Harm/Injury

"Too often, care providers focus on stopping the SI as quickly as possible because they themselves are not comfortable with it -- it repulses them, makes them feel ineffective, frightens them, etc. "


Wiki on Penance
In eastern religions (Hinduism, etc.), acts of hardship committed on oneself (fasting, lying on rocks heated by the Sun, etc.), especially as part of an ascetic way of life (as monk or 'wise man') in order to attain a higher form of mental awareness (through detachment from the earthly, not punishing guilt) or favours from (the) God(s).

Why do I use it?
It is cathartic, conscious altering, and assists me in processing information about Reality that I cannot accomplish with other tools. It is a barter system I use with the Powers in my life and as pure joyous offering to my Gods and beloved Dead.

How do I use it?
I have been trained regarding sterile practices, safe procedures, and the overall risk.
This work is dangerous in the form of potential infection, blood loss, muscle/bone/nerve damage, as well as mental, emotional, and spiritual injury.
I work with cutting, tattooing, branding, rope bondage, altered states, storytelling, heavy exercise. For anything more elaborate than jabbing myself in the fingertip with a diabetic lancet I work with trained and skilled members of my community.

When do I use it?
I'm often called to donate a drop of blood while interacting with the Powers in my life as a sign of intent and as a gift. I use rope suspension and intense exercise weekly as a meditative form as well as devotional offerings. Tattoos/brandings happen no more than twice a year at most as I learn something which I decide to implant into my body for integration. Cuttings are used as sacrificial offerings of pain and blood and to create magical items and are done usually no more than three times a year. For rituals of thanksgiving I may elect to offer more or when doing rituals required by my Gods.

As an Ordeal Master I perform these tasks for/with other people as needed.
 
 
EmberLeo
20:04 / 11.08.06
I wish I had time to devote to this in detail, but I wanted to toss this out while I have a moment:

Simply put because a tool has been used for evil purposes does not automatically make the tool evil.

It is my belief that tools cannot be good or evil. If good and evil truely exist, they are a function of intention and method, not tools.

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
21:58 / 11.08.06
Though to muddy the waters a bit, I do believe objects/tools can be charged with intent through use. This can be undone of course but sometimes it is an epic undertaking.

In this direction I view working with aspects of Ordeals as reclaimation. An activity which in earlier life may have been viewed as 'bad' can be reworked and reused to gain a new function.
 
 
EmberLeo
10:21 / 14.08.06
Oh, I could muddy the waters far worse, now that I think of it. Maybe I should spend my Get Out Of Paradox Free Card?

You see, I believe good and evil, if indeed they exist, require sentience, soul, mind, will, intent, whatever. Mere tools, even magical tools, are not themselves evil or good, but a means to evil or good ends. If you invest in them so much intent that they become capable of their own intentions, they have become more than mere tools.

But I'm something of an animist as well. So what then, if anything, is merely a tool?

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:59 / 14.08.06
The title ordeal path reminds me of what many people face as a path through life without life being ritualised to achieve a certain kind of ordeal. People, myself included face alot of pain and suffering just through everyday living, which can be anything from extreme trauma to annoying people or frustrating situations and circumstance.

Although alot of these situations become unconscious ordeals that can create alot of internal suffering if unresolved, they are also if understood a great way to learn about oneself and the world, understanding the positive in the negative and the negative in the positive.

I Have self harmed in different ways since i was a child due to unresolved traumas in my life, reliving an ordeal sometimes on a daily basis. I wonder how you frame your own ordeals and why you under take them, are you seeking to make conscious unconscious suffering? What are you trying to achieve, what is the intent, the focus?

What effect does the experience of pain fear and panic have on the magickal acts you are trying to perfom, how does it colour the experience say as opposed to techniques based on ecstatic pleasure, joy inducing bliss based worship and magick.

I ask because my own everyday ordeals that i face can often lead me to feeling overwhelmed, depressed, angry, isolated and out of control. I can see that ritualised ordeals are an attempt to remove the sense of them belonging to everyday experience and perhaps gain control of unconscious suffering but i wonder how upon experiencing them they inform your everyday life.
 
 
Ticker
13:08 / 14.08.06
EL: merely a tool?

Honestly I can't think of anything I don't treat as creature onto itself. My language choices alone seem to bear this out.

Sin

I'm not clear if you'd like me to respond to your questions or if you were asking the home audience?
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:34 / 14.08.06
Id like a response from you especially with regards to how ordeal informs your everyday life, relations with other people etc etc, how the ordeals cross over from a ritualised environment to everyday situations.
 
 
Ticker
18:40 / 14.08.06
What effect does the experience of pain fear and panic have on the magickal acts you are trying to perfom,

Physical pain acts a focus for my Will. What and who I am is revealed in my single focus of enduring the pain while choosing not to have it stop until I have moved through the process I have set forth. It is an energy force that I can flavor with my knowledge of self and push that into objects or bring it into higher awareness:
I am This.

Emotional pain is the liquid fire which reveals my interconnectedness with the World. It reveals my obsessions and Great Loves and such can fuel my strongest work.

Pain/Fear/Panic is a combination I've had thrust upon me as a part of the magical process of transformation rather than inducing it myself. I'm a control fiend so it teaches me who I am when I'm not in control. In my most recent experience with these tools my intellectual defenses were stripped away returning me to a place of naked honest emotion. In that place and re-experiencing an emotion of great loss I was shown a Mystery that my intellectual mechanisms would not have understood.


how does it colour the experience say as opposed to techniques based on ecstatic pleasure, joy inducing bliss based worship and magick.

For myself Joy and Love are encompassing emotions and as such I tend to lose myself in them. 'Whole heartedly' is an expression that resonates for me with these rituals. They tend to be the tools I use in thanksgiving and when honoring other people. While I will use them 'unmodified' as energy source I will not do so with my Anger or Hate.
There's enough uncontrolled Anger and Hate driving around on this planet without me adding my own.

Pain on its own can be combined very easily with Love and Joy for me. I know that maybe a strange thing for some folks so I'll try and see if I can express it through a few examples.

During a tattoo session I'm experiencing physical pain but I'm very excited about the new beautiful addition to my body being created. The beauty is not in spite of the pain, rather the pain is a vehicle for the beauty.

After a motorcycle accident I had several years ago I under went deep tissue massage work to realign my facial and torso muscles. The work on my face specifically was very painful but my awareness (bodily and mentally) knew I was being 'fixed' and I felt great joy, again not in spite of, but through the pain.

..okay back to your question...

Certain kinds of pain can be used to tap different parts of my psyche, and that is what colours the magic/ritual. I use a lot of Archetypal magic and They are attracted to different things.

So I can use a tool (dance/pain) and get to an ecstatic place or use the same tool (dance/pain) and get to a place of violence. Depends on the structure of what I'm doing.

I might summon one of my Guides through violent storytelling and barter His story for the lending of some of His strength or I might need him to work with one of my magical partners to invoke fear in them for the work they need to happen.

So to try and be concise about it, different techniques differ in what doors they open not necessarily in the strength of magic they raise.


especially with regards to how ordeal informs your everyday life, relations with other people etc etc, how the ordeals cross over from a ritualised environment to everyday situations.

I have a lot of socially unacceptable tendencies which I funnel into acceptable acts. Enlightened Self Interest has taught me that I cannot deny parts of my psyche nor remove them but I must act appropriately. Sometimes just playing nice in the world is an Ordeal and as such requires huge amounts of self control to not say/do what internal propulsion would have happen. I believe this is fairly universal in varying degrees for most people.

I know discipline of self yields great rewards. I exert effort to be patient, to be polite, to give space to others, to restrain my anger and I witness the benefits of this in being welcomed, in receiving gifts, and in having earned the privilege to be self governing. This for me is a form of magic as I am in many ways a Monster if I do not restrain myself. (again I don't think this is unusual, really)

I started out dealing with it ritually on the internal plane by dividing my aspects into a mythology. I can't claim it was completely conscious. Many of Them developed through storytelling when I was quite young and later crystalized when I trained in performance art and Celtic Mythology in college. I sourced my more diverse aspects and gave Them form.

Some of these Aspects are quite verbal and merge in with my main persona. However there are a few that are not verbally skilled or easy to deal with. They are however part of who I am and do help me survive. One of Them in particular is superb in navigating the magical realms where instinct and raw force of personality can hold the entire self together. This Aspect is very appropriate in magical contexts, not so much in day to day work unless I'm physically threatened. Even then I have another more thoughtful Aspect that's likely to spring into action with a combination of verbal skill and dominance.

If I need to control an Aspect to keep myself from acting out inappropriately, or if I need to call on an Aspect for specialized skill, I have rituals of summoning and ritual actions of barter.
(Even just talking about some of Them here will cause me to tend to Their needs later probably with telling Them stories.)

Again these aren't full on personalities, rather they are anthropomorphic/zoomorphic composites I use to wrangle myself.

Sometimes I need to undergo a ritual Ordeal to communicate with an Aspect or to align all of Them to a single purpose. So sometimes it's just maintenance or an act of cohesion. This maybe taking a very very long walk that tires me out physically and internally I am creating a story which feeds Them. There are moments when I need to undergo an Ordeal merely because an Aspect needs to manifest completely as the primary persona for another purpose.

The success of my daily life depends on the proper care of these parts of myself and in truth, I look at my interactions out in the world as differing degrees of Ordeals. It's how I'm wired I suspect.
 
 
grant
14:29 / 15.08.06
So, one of the big controversies surrounding the publication of The Da Vinci Code was the apparent relish with which the author divulged the "corporal mortification" promoted by Opus Dei -- especially the cilice, a "spiked chain worn around the upper thigh for two hours each day, except for Church feast days, Sundays, and certain times of the year."

The sensationalism surrounding this practice seems to key into something I've noticed with the presentation of (and criticism of) Christianity - especially modern fundamentalist Christianity. Thinking of things like the grisly "body piercing saved my life" T-shirts and The Passion of the Christ. They attract lots of criticism from the "sane" community -- the rationalists, clear-headed humanists, I don't know exactly what to call them, but the voices in the mainstream who seem awfully quick to point out how bloody and painful Christian imagery can be. The god hanging on the tree. The torture religion.

I don't know if there's a question hiding in there, other than has your (any of your) ordeal work ever attracted the same kinds of criticism, and/or have you ever felt a kind of kinship with the more -- what -- "pain-friendly" varieties of traditional Christian practice? That *old*-time religion?

Oh, and do you think some of this stuff might have been imported into Christianity from older Heathen practices?
 
 
Ticker
15:25 / 15.08.06
I don't know if there's a question hiding in there, other than has your (any of your) ordeal work ever attracted the same kinds of criticism, and/or have you ever felt a kind of kinship with the more -- what -- "pain-friendly" varieties of traditional Christian practice? That *old*-time religion?


Oh, and do you think some of this stuff might have been imported into Christianity from older Heathen practices?


I believe there is some deep seated awareness in the human psyche that pain *does* things and opens doors. Maybe it's the endorphins - that runner's high when the body's natural morphine kicks in, or perhaps it's the period after that cocktail has ebbed and the awareness shifts into an altered state.

..or the use of choice in the act of control (especially with minor pain and discomfort) that the person has mastery over their experience. I find a lot of people who fast recognise this moment when it happens.

Am I criticized for it? Oh all the time. Other neo pagans see it as an import of Christian guilt issues and abuse of the body as a lesser vehicle rather than a celebration of how I can manifest. "It's bad and perpetuating abuse" - I hear that one a lot.

However I would never tell anyone *they* should do these things where as many of the Christians I have interactions with seem to feel there is a singular way to have a relationship with the Divine. One right way and I suspect if they were advocating these techniques they might not advocate the same degree of personal choice. I could be completely wrong and so do not wish to put forth an absolute opinion on the matter.

Guilt is a fucked up motivator especially when the guilt is sort of an omni state of existence. For myself guilt is a momentary recognition that I need to take action to correct something. Once corrected the guilt fades and no longer informs my actions accept as a lingering awareness of a limit (hey-don't-do-that-again).

The most profound guilt motivated Ordeal I under went was a short ritual to atone for physical harm I had inflicted on another person. The person had forgiven me a long time ago (especially considering the circumstances of the action) but I could not forgive myself. By choosing the Ordeal and receiving life long marks in the form of scarification I finally felt that I had repaid a blood debt. This was not required by anyone but myself as a cathartic expression of atonement. I no longer feel the guilt for the original act only sadness regarding the events that caused it and joy that the person and I were able to both forgive me. This may seem like a bizarre coping mechanism but some emotions are not easily untangled and I'm proud that I found a way through it.
 
 
razorsmile
20:31 / 15.08.06
An interesting thread and I wanted to add a couple of comments. First off, of course, the use of scourging (the 40 lashes of the gardnerians etc) has long been part of witchcraft and is listed in gardners book of shadows as part of the eightfold way along with bondage (or 'blood control') as part of another of the eight, so that roughly a quarter of the eightfold ways involves ordeal. ordeal itself is in fact explicitly validated as part of the path...not that anything is true or false by this, just to suggest that ordeal is fully part of the path of western magic and it would be foolish of anyone, I think, to deny such.

Secondly an incident. I work in a small network of others down here in brighton and connections vary depending on the work but one of the group situations in which I work is a camp run by an eclectic obod inspired grove of druids (though they're not officially part part of obod I think). They do some cool group workings for about 50 or so of us at a time - big fire labyrinths and the like. Last year the May camp involved a wickerman ritual, with this great 30-40 foot wickerman burnt in the middle of the circle. The rituals take all day to prepare and they generally involve various elements so that the individuals and/or smaller groups that are there can integrate their own intentions with the larger group and the whole working develop a common dynamic through practice rather than theory. Anyway, one of the individual/group links for this wickerman rite was the theme of sacrifice and the personal link with the group was going to be symbolised by each of us tying a cord to the wickerman just before he was roasted. So early in the day we're all led out by d. and taken over to a patch of nettles - no forewarning or anything - and told to pluck the nettles. After the initial resistance and some rather forceful and clear instructions that you could of course leave but this was part of the rite, we all picked the nettles, yelling and shouting and generally having a right laugh. Then we were told to bring these into the circle and were shown how to make nettle cord, which of course meant handling the nettles and getting stung more as we made the cords and weaved our spells into them ready for the evening rite. It was one of the most interesting rites I'd been part of for a long while and brought out a whole range of behaviours and emotions as we collectively dealt with the personal ordeals we were all going through.

Now of course these might be said to be relatively small levels of pain compared, perhaps, to the sort of things, say, that the unholy trinity get up to or which some straight pain-sluts (and I use the term lovingly ;-) want but the ordeal elements were clearly there and clearly accepted precisely because of their connection with the type of craft practices that gardner both drew on and inspired. Ordeal as a rounded concept of magic, I think, involves some of these elements such as the nettle rite.

As it happens I got right into nettles after the camp and one of the things I found on my researches was that their use dates back a long way - apparently roman soldiers were known to use them on their cocks when wearing leather sheaths in order to aid the stimulation...I have yet to try this but then that's because I barely ever wear a condom anyway but it's one of those little things in reserve for a bored evening or a pain-needy sub.

In the meantime, and slightly off topic, I've been wanting to do some suspension work which I know shit all about technically so if there's anyone in the london south-east area who has contacts with skillz, as they say, would appreciate a message...
 
 
EmberLeo
19:46 / 22.08.06
xk: How often is this method being employed in an effort to re-define self? Along the lines I was pondering in the Posession thread, about how losing pieces of identity always hurts me even if I prepared as much as possible for the change, I was pondering the idea of Ordeal work as a way of not just accepting such a pain, but embracing it, overwhelming it, overcoming it, etc.

Does that make sense?

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
20:34 / 22.08.06
xk: How often is this method being employed in an effort to re-define self? Along the lines I was pondering in the Posession thread, about how losing pieces of identity always hurts me even if I prepared as much as possible for the change, I was pondering the idea of Ordeal work as a way of not just accepting such a pain, but embracing it, overwhelming it, overcoming it, etc.

Does that make sense?


Yup makes sense.

Oddly enough I've been writing a schpeel on an aspect of this subject to share at the next shindig with the other Ordeal folk I know. Timely is your question!

I'd say a very high percent of Ordeal ritual is used to get a person to a state of deep core self awareness. The hardship often pushes you right passed where you think you live and what your limits are. From there you can either work on a specific aspect of rebuilding yourself or your relationship with an external. It shares this in common with therapy forms of BDSM.

You mention loss of identity but from your posts in the other thread I've seen you speak more of a loss of control? How much are these entwined for you?
 
 
EmberLeo
21:12 / 22.08.06
In that particular case, very, because of what I lost control over. But the more general pattern of pain is more attached to Identity than Control.

I should probably take that back over there, eh?

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
21:15 / 22.08.06
Well I think if you want input on how to build an Ordeal this thread is the one. If you want to poke the control/id aspects of possession without examining how to build an Ordeal, over there is good.

Up to you.
 
 
Ticker
14:22 / 30.10.06
I'm sort of in a floaty happy place today partly due to a blood ordeal I did yesterday.

To prep for Samhain offering to the Dead I went to my Temple space and began with ritual dance. It took a bit for me to move my mind away from the daily (and halloweenie) grind and into the dance. Once I had achieved focus through the dance I used a technique of taking alternating mouthfuls of water. Some I focused my negative throw-away issues into and spat into a special container. Others I mediatated on of what I wished to take in and swallowed. When finished with this purification I arranged my gear including sterile scalpel, sharps container, technicare (the best surgical prep for sterilizing the skin), gauze, and small sand dollars for tokens. As I was working on myself I did not lay out gloves. Unless you are fluid bonded with someone gloves are essential.

As I began to charge the scalpel I realized my intention had shifted. I had planned on using the rite as primarily a penance for the sins of the past year and a recent epic fuckup. I know many folks are uncomfortable with the use of pain and suffering as a treatment for guilt and are rightly concerned about people they care about perpetuating self punishment. However for some people including myself, making amends to the people you have harmed is not enough. There lingers an unease which I can only describe as a sense of imbalance. After many years of dealing with my personal assortment of issues I feel that a thoughtful use of pain is cathartic for me. I view it as using the intense sensation to align my consciousness and reshape my being in the direction of my intent. Before the pain there is the calm of choosing to under go the action and in this moment of choice I find unity. In moving through the pain I experience transformation, in enduring the pain I am exchanging a payment or gift.

However as I was laying out my gear and applying the technicare I realized that I also wanted to infuse the desire for caring for myself into the cutting. The unruly emotions that often surface in me are quite difficult to deal with and I've been struggling with my relationship with food as a sedative habitually used to repress my emotions. While my food is of the highest quality my treatment of it often lacks the sacred respect I feel I should be showing it as well as my own physical needs. For the past year I've been working on the concept of nourishment and the holy use of food. What I've discovered is that in doing my self work care of my physical being keeps getting shuffled to the side.

Leaving my gear out I resummed dancing and praying. Moving through the sound rapidly induces the same sense of unity (I associate this form of conciousness with yoga/dance/BDSM). There is a point in the dance when the sacred space takes on a very palatable charge and I feel in communion with myself and the Divine. Here in this moment I found the answer I was looking for about how to use the cutting and what the source of the dissatifaction I often feel is.

I then sat down and let the energy flow into the scalpel and began to trace a double spiral onto the back of my left forearm. The pain registered as a bright white lick that I gladly welcomed. I dedicated the blood and the pain to my beloved Dead and Gods and to those I had eaten, those that I had wronged, and all that I love. I also felt the intent of owning my body and my experience in my flesh flow into the curved lines. Now curves and scalpels are not close friends so I was a bit surprised at how well the design came out. I gathered up the dripping blood with the small sand dollars (do not apply to the wounds as that would be non sterile) and then wiped my arm with alcohol pads. This is really just for the second of ferocious pain the alcohol causes on the cuts as the technicare has already cleaned the area. Into that wave of pain I directed my awareness to own the truth of my actions over the last year. I then cleaned the area with more technicare which is quite soothing and focused on tending to myself. Another pass with the alcohol for the suffering of animals I have eaten and then another with the technicare to promise to always remember their sacrifice. I placed the used scalpel and bloody bits into the sharps container and wrapped up the sand dollars.

Then more dancing and the endorphins from the cutting pushed me very quickly into ecstatic dance during which I lost sense of time and returned to a further state of communion.

What I was reminded of is my need for intense ritual and stepping into the space of communion. Of course I act out and subconsciously stir up drama in my life when I am going without the intentionally created expressions of this part of myself. Food is sacred* to me and overdosing on it is a symptom of feeling like the rest of my life has moved away from tending that which is holy. The more mundane everyday things pile up on me and I don't take action to rebalance myself, the more crazy and disruptive I become. The challenge is keeping the sacred acts from becoming stale and habitually in their own right.

I plan on reworking the double spiral a few more times to get a very nice raised scar as a reminder.

*"Food is holy. Its preparation and enjoyment constitute a daily
opportunity to experience happiness, satisfaction and gratitude."
 
 
EmberLeo
10:44 / 10.11.06
I keep coming back to this concept, and wanting to poke at it, and just not knowing where to begin.

I'm trying to decide if it fascinates me for the same reason I'm fascinated by the information about drugs, and mixed drinks, and sex toys, regardless of any desire to use them (or by and large a lack thereof).

I don't think so, but it's an area where I haven't recently poked very hard at myself to parse my own motivations. I know my habits, and the distinctions involved, and I have only just started to ponder the whys and wherefores behind them.

My Mom often quotes that Religion should Comfort the Afflicted, and Afflict the Comfortable.

This seems to be something that does both simultaneously.

But why can't I wrap my head around a place to begin thinking about it clearly enough to find a thread of questioning??

--Ember--
 
 
Mario
10:56 / 10.11.06
I'm not big on pain, in general. Too much the epicure.

But I've always been under the impression that pain, along with fasting, exposure to the elements, various pharmaceuticals, and extreme physical activity (e.g. dancing) all serve a similar role in inituating an altered mindset (often called "shamanic") which opens the magician up to other perceptions.

(the earlier comment about endorphins relates, I think)
 
 
Hawthorn
01:35 / 12.11.06
xk - really interesting. Can I ask if you ever feel like penance to reestablish equilibrium or to forgive yourself might begin to seem like an excuse? I mean that you might ever go ahead with something that seems wrong because you know you can atone for it later? Understand that I say this as someone who also plays with pain and has used blood, I'm not saying it's wrong.

I also was intrigued with your description of aspects of self and working with/through them by use of stories. Do you ever find yourself wondering if an aspect of self might actually be coming from an external place, or vice versa? I realise this might be sort of off thread-topic, where else could I talk about this?
 
 
Hawthorn
12:05 / 12.11.06
In Stupid Questions! Of course! right, never mind
 
 
Ticker
13:21 / 13.11.06
Ember:

It might help to think of some Ordeals as those acts which require an increased amount of effort on our part. Creating a lavish feast for the dead that requires a lot of time and money is certainly a form of Ordeal work.
It maybe that on some level you are drawn to the idea of intense effort while not being drawn to the pain/blood manifestation. Certainly many forms of devotional art can be accessed via an Ordeal mindset. Taking care of an annoying elder with compassion is a time honored form of transformative spiritual effort.

Hawthorn:
Can I ask if you ever feel like penance to reestablish equilibrium or to forgive yourself might begin to seem like an excuse? I mean that you might ever go ahead with something that seems wrong because you know you can atone for it later?

No, usually when I commit a sin (a act or thought that creates a block between the Self and the Self, the Self and the Community, or the Self and the Divine) it is a moment of losing control. There isn't a dieter's process of "I'll eat this cookie now and do five situps later" in terms of creating an inbalance and then seeking to rebalance through effort. My anger slips the leash, my rage breaks out, my pettiness snaps out, my selfishness steals.

Sometimes the damage cannot be repaired. I can't walk through life justifying an occassional slip up knowing later it'll be paid with five minutes of pain when that slip up could be an irreversible injury to another person's self esteem or our friendship or something worse.

Do you ever find yourself wondering if an aspect of self might actually be coming from an external place, or vice versa?

Well external is an odd way of framing it. Do my Gods and Ancestors require and request joyous offerings from me? Do aspects of my own being promote this form of worship?

It is a bit complex of a relationship between how I on a deep level commune with the Divine and how the Divine communes with me. I have song/singing/hearing, dance/watching/doing, food/fast/feast, art/making/celebrating, story/telling/listening, quest/undertaking/setting, task/undertaking/setting, and a wealth more.

Sometimes I'm told or inspired to a certain action. My Divinities and I share an understanding of Death and Nourishment. My Ancestors are more about food offerings and right action.
My inner selves often request a wide range of experience including dancing (which is a form of offering in its expression of communion), tattooing, piercing, tackling, BDSM, fine meals, fasting, motorcycle rides, and trips abroad.

I can name five predominate selves with their own sets of requirements. Upon reflection some Ordeal work with penance I do is to allow some of these aspects to repay others so the sins are usually sins against the self.
 
 
EmberLeo
09:47 / 17.11.06
xk: I think I'm not just connecting to effort, but to struggle? That is, the aspect of challenge to self, the ... the conflict?

I have a whole big thing I wanted your oppinion on. I guess a perspective, or reality check, but it's big and long and rambly, and I don't want to post it here.

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
13:14 / 17.11.06
well for some folks worship is a flowing stream, they know it is the correct path because their entire being yearns toward the actions which will lead to communion.

Yet for some of us we have many internal yearnings and fears, and some stubborn heel digging in. We also have that strong yearning call for communion but can be distracted by the other voices and needs pulling on our attention.

The process of tangible struggle and effort is often used as way to unify the self to enter into the flowing state. It can be like focusing on the breath to deepen into a difficult yoga posture. To stick with the yoga metaphor, the struggle is akin to putting the whole self into a difficult posture which we know will ultimately benefit us. The sequence of postures readies the self physically and mentally for a state that we normally don't readily access.

In most cases there's also a very physical component of Ordeal work. Through the intentional stimulation of certain emotions and stresses altered consciousness is obtained. This maybe of vital importance to someone who can't use or chooses not to use ritual drugs or lengthy fasts (though some fasts are ordeal oriented as well).
 
 
electric monk
15:43 / 27.11.06
Yes! Fucking found it! I was beginning to believe I had imagined posting that, but there it is. My first major working. My first ordeal. I figured a reference to it belonged here.

I've been thinking about that working since this past Halloween, wondering just what the hell happened to me, how I managed to pull it off, and if it can even be called an act of magic. Yes, it all took place within a ritual setting. Yes, I was able to achieve altered states of conciousness. Yes, those altered states blew my doors off and allowed me a deeper understanding of a lot of deep-seated issues. But was it magic? The more I think about it, the more it seems that what I did was self-directed therapy and not magic. But I'm not sure? Whaddaya think. Therapy? Magic? Is there even a difference when discussing this kind of thing?
 
 
Ticker
17:31 / 27.11.06
well we have a weird culture as it segregates magic from therapy rather than making room for magically therapy. If you use magic for healing it is still magic.

Can you go into more detail than what's in the orginal post about the Ordeal? I'd prompt would you say a fear Ordeal specificly?
 
 
EvskiG
20:11 / 27.11.06
Therapy? Magic? Is there even a difference when discussing this kind of thing?

I've often wondered about the extent to which magic is distinct from any other methods of consciousness expansion, self-actualization, individuation, etc.

If you do yoga to improve your physical and mental health, is that magic? If you do it as per Crowley's instructions in Liber E, is that magic? Is the answer different if you lift weights? Is the answer different if you do a daily banishing ritual? Is a banishing ritual more or less magical than seeing a psychiatrist or taking antidepressants? If taking antidepressants isn't magical, is using psychedelics? Is stopping smoking a magical act?

Is it all a matter of magical intent?

Or does magic require some element of ineffability, weirdness, or change not attributable to normal causality?

I still like Crowley's definition best: "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will."
 
 
electric monk
20:32 / 27.11.06
Ah. Yes, I see your points. And having seen them, I have to wonder why I was trying to fit that experience definitively into one box or the other at all. Thanks!

More detail? Be happy to. I don't have my journal with me right now, so I'll try to give you as much as I can and correct and update later if that's okay.

So to start: Yes, this work was definitely what you'd call a fear ordeal. I'd had that particular phobia for as long as I could remember and, on becoming a magician, decided that it needed to be sorted out. I had, or was developing, the tools necessary for the sorting out. Having this fear bothered me a great deal, as it seemed totally irrational and greatly affected me even though I knew it was kinda stupid. The funny thing is the whole deal telescoped on me. This one intense phobia turned out to have roots and vines growing into, around, and through a lot of other fears and mental blocks. I didn't realize what I was getting myself into.

I found a lot of inspiration and direction in the works of Phil Hine. I used his Auric Egg technique pretty much as found. The general form of my working came out of a not-too-dissimilar working of Hine's (can't find it on his site, but I'm sure it's there. Linkage to come). I knew at the outset that I'd need to put in a lot of time with this work, and remembered hearing something about a person needing thiry days to make or break a habit. I extended the time to forty days, thinking that would give me leeway to fuck up a good ten days of the thing and still get some result. Plus, "...for forty days and forty nights" had some resonance for me.

The collage that I mention in the other thread... That was interesting. It was made of googled images from funhouses. The only criteria I set for them was that they had to scare the shit out of me. When I came upon one that gave me that tensing tingle, I downloaded it. I guess I grabbed about forty or fifty and ended up using about thirty of them. When it came to piecing the collage together, I just let myself work freely. Paste this here, overlap that one and this one. I did my best not to impose reason or too much composition on the thing. It was only ever for my eyes, and that in itself was freeing.

So every night before bed I'd close myself off in my temple, light my white altar candle (which sat behind the collage), a red candle (sitting in front of the collage), and some Dragon's Blood incense (because I read somewhere it imparted bravery). And I would sit in a lotus, relax my body, and attempt to put myself in the darkened hallways of The Funhouse. Sometimes, I would let my mind extrapolate from one of the pictures in the collage. Sometimes, I would just let go and run the dank alleys of my head. Mainly, I was looking for that fear, that feeling of terror that tightened my ribcage. For the first thirty days, I smoked a joint prior to meditation to amp up the paranoia.

Looking back over that changework thread, I just have to smile at the small successes building up to the finale, especially getting skinned by the monsters. There were the little things, too, that popped up during the timeframe of the working that really let me know I was on the right track. Finding that Pete Carrol quote (which I'd forgotten all about). Lucking into a copy of Holst's "Planets" days after mentioning in my journal that I maybe needed a soundtrack. There were a few others. The Holst find was the absolute tops, tho. It was exactly what I needed exactly when I needed it, and brought a whole new dimesion to the proceedings. It also brought me nearest that absolute shittingscreamingcryingshaking terror that I was after.

This had been concieved as a working in Geburah from the start. The red candle throwing pulsing light on the collage was my only physical reminder of that. Then came the Holst's "Mars, Bringer of War". Most of the time, that was the opening track for the meditation. On one of the last nights of the working, I decided it was go-for-broke time. All or nothing. Either come through this night sane or insane. My choice. So "Mars" was the only track that night, and I got myself especially high for the occasion. I cued up "Mars", settled into my lotus, and determined that I would keep my eyes wide open and glued to a particular pic in the collage. I want to say it was some type of menacing, toothy clown, but don't quote me on that. Anyway, the music builds and I find that I'm really having a hard time keeping my gaze on the pic. It's not that I was distracted or anything like that. But I had determined to lock eyes with a horrible horrible thing that WOULD NOT BLINK AND WOULD NOT AVERT ITS EYES. Well, fuck you son. I'm not turning away either.

Now, for those who've not heard it, "Mars, Bringer of War" has a kind of false end about a minute before the real end. The music grows weak, fades down to almost silence, and then bursts back up again louder and more insistent than before in a great confusion of strings and martial horns and gigantic drums. In my concentration and high-ness, I very much forgot about that part. So there I am, staring down a picture, determined to make it through the entire song. Getting pretty scared, to be honest. And the song starts to fade. "Ah, I made it. Phew!" The the collage said "fuck you right back" over a hail of violins. The song comes back up and everything. Just. Fucking. Shattered. My whole body stiffened and I startled back, eyes taking in the whole collage. There was meaning there. Deep, important, and cutting meaning. In that minute, I took in every picture I'd chosen at random and watched as the meaning I'd wanted to impart to myself bled in from the edges. I saw the connections between them all, how they interacted, why I'd chosen them. There was my mother, screaming her signature scream. There was my father, his eyes wild with anger, his face inches from mine. There was me, becoming them. It was all there. I spent a long time drawing out a diagram of the collage, numbering the spaces where the pictures were, and noting the impressions I'd been flooded with.

The last few days of the working were a slow slide down from that terror high. On the last day, just prior to starting the Changework thread, I sat lotus-style in my temple and mentally walked through the collage. I let everything work up inside me. All the fear I'd ever felt of funhouses and my father and my mother and my life and myself. And I fucking screamed. Screamed for every time I hadn't been able scream before. One long, drawn-out "YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!" that broke like a wave and degenerated into joyous laughter. I closed the temple, took the the folded collage and the remnants of my red candle, and set them both aflame in the chiminea on my back patio. For whatever reason, whether it was the glue I'd used to make the collage or the violent energies therein, the flame leapt up about four feet from the spout of the chiminea and quickly died. I marked an equilateral cross on my forehead with a bit of the ash, and chucked the rest in the garbage.

You may not have been looking for that much detail, but there ya go.
 
 
Ticker
15:25 / 28.11.06
that's fucking fantastic Monk! Thanks for all the details!

See I think that's a grand personal Ordeal, you designed it with intent and forced yourself through it and it became what it needed to be independant of your conscious designs.

It definately sounds like a powerful personal ritual.

I've been needing another Ordeal ritual but I'm leery of putting that out there as last time the reins were taken out of my hands and I got more than I asked for. Well it was what I needed, but you know...

right now I'm doing a time intensive process of self work (aren't they all?) but I'm recognizing the need to up the daily ritual content. Doing the groundwork is always a bit of drudgery but I have to remember it is as important as the whizbang moment of focused ritual.
 
 
electric monk
17:14 / 28.11.06
You're very welcome! I enjoyed writing all that up, and I'm glad I had a space to share it.

BTW, on reflection, there's no way in hell that flame leapt up four feet. I gave the chiminea a look-over last night and... well, a four-foot tall flame is waaaaay outside the realm of the possible. Foot-and-a-half, two feet max, I'd say. 'Twas damn impressive tho.


Let us all know how your latest Ordeal goes, when you're able to share.
 
 
electric monk
15:20 / 11.12.06
(See here for the Phil Hine working I reference above. Grab the 'Oven-Ready Chaos' PDF and look for the chapter titled "Howling" in the appendices. Thass the bassard.)
 
 
Ticker
15:55 / 27.12.06
I've been reading an amazing book called Sacred Pain: Hurting the Body for the Sake of the Soul by Ariel Glucklich.

From an Ordeal perspective this book is a wealth of information on neuroscience and psychology regarding how we experience and process pain.

From Library Journal
Why do people seek out or endure intense physical pain in the name of religion? This question was posed to Glucklich (theology, Georgetown Univ.) by a friend, and this book is his answer. Steering clear of easy or reductive answers such as lunacy and superstition, Glucklich delves deeply into the various fields (psychology, physiology, philosophy, history, theology) that one must investigate to respond. He focuses on the effect of pain on the self and sense of identity and examines the various meanings pain can have for the individual, in contrast to the modern view of pain as an enemy and unquestionably undesirable. As he states, "Only religious language can describe how 'bad' pain becomes 'good' pain, though it is not only religion that brings about this transformation." This demanding book does justice to the complexity of its subject as Glucklich masterfully leads the reader through all the diverse paths that connect with the central topic. He is a skilled writer who presents complicated material well without sacrificing meaning or nuance. Highly recommended for academic libraries.


Of particular interest to me was the theory of Isomorphism (Gestalt psychology) regarding how we experience pain as a spatial and temporal event. The research on phantom limb pain is pretty stunning as well.

Anyhow I'd really like to post quotes from the book here as I believe they would be of interest especially to those who cannot get their heads around how pain can be beneficial and not a masochistic indulgence. As the material is sourced from well documented scientific findings I suspect it might appeal to more people...

What you kids thinks?
 
 
electric monk
16:55 / 27.12.06
Go fer it, keed. I'd encourage you to talk about the quotes you present, of course, rather than copy-pasting. But you knew that.
 
 
Ticker
17:06 / 27.12.06
yeah, I'd like to get all book club meets real life lab rats if that's cool.
 
 
Ticker
19:07 / 28.12.06
I have to sit down with the book and type stuff out tonight.

But check this out Thai Broken Glass Walking/Sleeping
 
 
godhole
22:08 / 16.02.07
I have been pondering ordeal path work from the top's perspective (however the "Top" role is named). In the "Elusive Ordeal" thread, someone wrote that "to actively go looking for such a crisis or ordeal - rather than letting it happen organically out of your practice - is possibly missing the whole point of these experiences, their meaning and value."

So, to paraphrase the title of yet another thread, "Is your ordeal really necessary?" What are the criteria in use for discerning that it is Time for you to seek out or set up an intentionally-entered-into ordeal? Does the "bottom" or subject determine this from inner or not-so-inner prompting? If one is a service top, or facilitator of ordeal ritual work, what should one look for in the subject who is asking for this work? (Beyond of course one's own inner check-ins with Whomever one might happen to work for.)
 
  

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