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Terror Outrage Foiled

 
  

Page: 1(2)34

 
 
Ganesh
22:36 / 11.08.06
My dick is full of PMs about how much of a negative inbox you're all being.

What's struck me is how uninterested people seem, generally speaking, in this whole thing. My colleagues haven't mentioned it, and it seemed to take ages for a thread to start on Barbelith (I couldn't be bothered starting it myself, which is maybe relevant). Am I getting a false/cocooned impression?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:12 / 12.08.06
All that's really come up in my bubble is people saying "but we're flying to ... on Monday!" Among those that have any opinion the common refrain is that this is all Tony's fault for getting us involved in Iraq, despite what the Government minister said on Newsnight last night, and what has been the Government line for several years now, that British people were in the WTC too and that that wasn't an Al Qaeda attack on the US but the civilised world and all British actions since then have been in retalliation, the fairly common belief is that the tube attacks last year and these possible attacks wouldn't have happened if we didn't invade Iraq. I'm not convinced that that is true, how many Indian troops were involved in invading Iraq then? But the belief would seem to be widespread.

There's no word yet on whether the police have found any of the componants needed to make these liquid bombs. But then it seems that the US are releasing more information about the case than the UK and they are going to do a brilliant job of ensuring these guys never get a fair trial. Might as well just ship them straight off to Guantanemo...
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
11:17 / 12.08.06
I'm not convinced that that is true, how many Indian troops were involved in invading Iraq then?

Not Iraq but there is Kashmir.
If Al Qaeda exists, I imagine it's a case of "Act Locally, Think Globally". A homegrown response to internal and foreign policy.

Not sure why the current plot is inspiring such deep cynicism in me.
(I'll come back when I have more time.)
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
15:36 / 12.08.06
One odd thing I've noticed: Three of the arrested suspects are converts to Islam, one, Don Stewart-Whyte, only converted six months ago. That seems an awfully short time to go from being a potential target to being part of a major operation. These things don't happen overnight, so he would have had to become part of the operation very soon after he'd converted. I can't imagine anybody involved in terrorism taking the risking him being police/MI5.
It's inspiring some cynicism in me as well, especially coming after the rather ridiculous arrests earlier in the year and while my gut is telling me there was an actual threat this time around I think we'll see this 'unimaginable' threat diminish over time as suspects are ruled out.
 
 
■
15:36 / 12.08.06
Not that I often give credit to the Now Show, but last night Mitch Benn (stop singing, please) articulated something that has bothered me for years: if we're not allowed anything sharp in our hand luggage, why is Boots allowed to sell razor blades at the gates?
 
 
Spaniel
18:38 / 12.08.06
(Yes, please stop singing. Now)
 
 
Olulabelle
19:25 / 12.08.06
But how do books factor in? No liquids or books in case you bring something which what? Tells you how to be a terrorist?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
20:29 / 12.08.06
I guess it's in case you've hollowed out the book and put your bomb making fixin's in there. I would have thought that opening the book would confirm whether there's a bomb in there but that just shows why fancy-shmansy liberal ivory-tower types like me aren't cut out to fight a war.

A war.... ON TERROR.
 
 
Mistoffelees
21:35 / 12.08.06
My cynism knows no bounds too. I´m this close to not flying next month. Not because of fear, but because I know my short fuse temper. If they actually tell me I have to leave my book behind, although it´ll be hours before I reach my destination, thanks to their absurd "security" measures, I just might lose it, and that would be bad for me.

Even a child should realize that no government will ever be able to stop a dedicated criminal from blowing people up. Want to know how to build a bomb? You can find the appropriate books in any good sorted library. I even bought such books as a minor, after someone had rented and not returned them on my stolen library card.

They can´t blow up their bombs in a plane? So try the supermarket. Movie theatre. Open Air Festival. Crowded street at rush hour. There is no way to stop them all the time every time, unless you frisk everyone when we leave our homes.
 
 
Bed Head
22:28 / 12.08.06
Dude, try a crowded airport. One that’s jam-packed full of hundreds and hundreds of people who are now *waiting* for their new improved security check and their confiscating-of-the-liquid ritual and all that. This really is almost as though the planes themselves are a target, rather than the passengers, who would seem as vulnerable as ever. To my inexpert eyes.
 
 
Bed Head
22:34 / 12.08.06
Also, I admit that I’ve only been glancing at the newspapers these last few days, rather than going thru them properly and applying brane, but, as Our Lady notes, it certainly seems as though there have been an awful lot of details about the suspects that have been leaked and supplied to the media by British and American “intelligence sources”, or “police sources”, or whatever. Again, I don’t really know much about this stuff, but really: won’t having such information in the public arena, on the front pages of all the tabs in the country in which they’ve been arrested, have some bearing on the chances of securing a fair trial and a conviction?
 
 
Olulabelle
23:26 / 12.08.06
You'd think, wouldn't you, but actually it won't matter because somehow America will manage to get Britian to agree that America can deport them for trial and then instead of trial they'll end up in Guantanamo and trial won't be an issue anymore, fair or not.
 
 
illmatic
18:17 / 13.08.06
This probably deserves a thread of it's own but I thought I'd put this here: Why Sustainability, Not Terrorism Should be Our real focus

We, especially those of us in the U.S., have been kept in a panic state for the last five years, told constantly that not only is terrorism an immediate threat to ourselves and the ones we love, but that it is a danger to our very civilization. The result has been both that terrorists have been more successful in spreading terror and that authoritarian politicians have taken the opportunity to reduce government transparency and citizen oversight and erode protections for human rights and democratic process.

It also hasn't made us one lick safer, since, while we've been freaking out, fighting an unjustified war and pouring money into the terrorism porkbarrel, we've essentially ignored very big, well- documented threats, from the climate crisis to the weakening of the global public health system and the rise of epidemic disease to the destruction of New Orleans.

.... Let me be even more blunt: sustainability is a national security priority. Perhaps the national security priority. If scientists are correct, far more people have already lost their lives from the direct and indirect effects of climate change than terrorism. The health effects of sprawl, car accidents, chemical spills, environmentally-influenced cancers: all of these things are probably bigger threats to the lives of average Americans than terrorism. Certainly preventable disease, unneccessary hunger, solvable poverty and environmental degredation already cause far more death and suffering in the world than any terrorists ever could.
 
 
Queer Pirate
18:37 / 14.08.06
QP: No successful terrorist attack has been carried out in the U.K. since 9/11.

Stoatberry: Are you absolutely sure about that?


Oops! My mistake. For some reason I was under the impression that the July 7th, 2005 attack had been foiled too. Damn, I guess that's no longer a valid argument.

I guess it all justifies turning the U.K. into a police state, now, does it?

QP: the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), has a history of making fake bomb calls and of acting as agents provocateurs, infiltrating activist groups to incite activists to undertake criminal activities, often even supplying weapons and explosives - and then tipping the RCMP into arresting everyone

MattShepherd: QP, is there any reputable source for any of this? I'm aware of rampant incompetence, and creepy "infiltration" of Muslim groups (but I assume that's par of most national security agencies in most countries, these days) but I've never heard of any real cases of entrapment to the degree of CSIS giving people explosives and then calling the RCMP on them.

Less threadrotty, I'm in the "not fake" camp. As much as it's tempting to think that people stage this for political gain, the repercussions of being CAUGHT faking something like this would be so ridiculously huge that I can't imagine even politicians throwing the dice on it.


I can link you to a "reputable" source (as much as a mainstream newspaper can be considered reputable), but the article is in French.

La Presse: Le SCRS a-t-il provoqué Toronto, June 20th, 2006

I recall the Gilles Brault (aka Youssef Mouammar) incident which received some press coverage back then. Unfortunately I couldn't find any English source on short notice. He was a CSIS informant who placed a "bomb" call regarding a fake sarin gas attack in the Montreal subway. The CSIS even went as far as to hide him from the RCMP.

There is also an incident involving the Quebec city activist group Germinal that was charged with planning a bombing during the April 2001 Summit of Americas - the group was infiltrated and was apparently provided "explosives" (I'm not sure what were the alleged explosives) by its infiltrators. News coverage on this incident is murky and pretty one-sided and the case is still in court, but an important aspect of the defendants' defense rests on proving entrapment.

If people think this is threadrot, I will stop posting regarding these events. I felt they were related as both were about the authorities "heroically" foiling alleged terrorist attempts. In both cases, most medias were quick to jump to the conclusion that the plot was real, even though nothing has been proven in court. Anti-terrorist laws will also make these trials unfair and dangerous, since most of the prosecution's proof will be concealed from the defense and the public. And in both cases, authorities might have a vested interest in finding "terrorists", whether they be real or fabricated.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:00 / 14.08.06
I guess it all justifies turning the U.K. into a police state, now, does it?

That was so obviously not the point I was making.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:02 / 14.08.06
Oh, and no, I don't think your other points are threadrot, btw.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:28 / 15.08.06
God, Newsnight last night was depressing. They had an lady on last night from the American Institute for Advanced Racism or something allowed to state how wonderful and succesful profiling was, practically unchallenged. All terrorists come from the Pakistan/South Asian area apparently, and are brown. The 7th July bombers would beg to differ, as would the white converts who were arrested last week.

And of course, there's the thousands of British Muslims and Pakistani/Indian Muslims who fly to the United States every day without feeling the need to blow anything up. So profiling doesn't work, but it's a great way to scare people.

Hmmm, I wonder what that 'terror in the sky' journalist is saying now.
 
 
Mistoffelees
10:23 / 15.08.06
The 7th July bombers would beg to differ, as would the white converts who were arrested last week.

Wait a moment please. We don´t know if these coverts or the other arrested people are terrorists, there was no trial and no sentence yet. So it is innocent until proven otherwise.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:33 / 15.08.06
OK, the white terrorists behind the Oklahoma City bombing then.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:56 / 15.08.06
Not sure McVeigh can be categorised as a terrorist. Before the US government killed him he repeatedly said it was a revenge attack for the FBI's assualts on Waco and the Weaver family. He doesn't appear to have had any motivation other than a desire to blow something up.

But I get your point.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:51 / 15.08.06
I felt they were related as both were about the authorities "heroically" foiling alleged terrorist attempts. In both cases, most medias were quick to jump to the conclusion that the plot was real, even though nothing has been proven in court. Anti-terrorist laws will also make these trials unfair and dangerous, since most of the prosecution's proof will be concealed from the defense and the public. And in both cases, authorities might have a vested interest in finding "terrorists", whether they be real or fabricated.

Considering the massive amount of fire that the British Government has been under in the past four years for it's part on GWOT I think it would be pretty risky for them to pull an illusory victory out of the hat. Especially considering the amount of scrutiny this most recent anti-terrorsim raid has pulled from media sources.

I definitely think it is important that people do not get drawn towards making an automatic assumption of guilt on the part of the suspects. However, I do think that automatically assuming government conspiracy demonstrates just as much faulty thinking.

There are groups of extremists currently active in the UK which have demonstrated a willingness and capability to perform attacks on civilian targets. As has already been pointed out to you QP there was one successful attack in the UK last year, which was closely followed by a second attempt which failed only because the explosives were faulty (and that might be why you thought there hadn't been any).

Assuming that there was a genuine plot (and current information seems to point that way) then I'd say the authorities were doing their job. I think "heroic" isn't really a term that can be applied to an organisation, but if loss of life has been averted then that's not a bad thing is it? Surely they'd at least deserve a certain amount of respect for finally getting something right (without allowing it to wash away the "accidental" shootings and general "arrest the nearest Muslim-looking fella" theme of recent anti-terrorism raids)?

It is a bit early to swing one way or another.

I do agree with you on one point QP, if the current anti-terror laws were sufficient to prevent an attempted attack of this level then why do they need to become any stricter?

On an aside, I'm flying to Ireland in September. It's only an hour long flight but I'm still hoping I can get away with taking a book on board (it looks like it'll be okay by the time I fly). Anyone having to do a long-haul flight without access to their preferred choice of literature and music has my sympathies. Yeah, there's films but they're always the cruddy ones.
 
 
Supaglue
12:09 / 15.08.06
I think its a valid point, Evil Scientist, to note that the authorities would be looking to get things right this time, considering the past... 'cock ups'.

But put another way: Have I seen any direct evidence that these people are terrorists? No. Has my government ever lied about the trheat of tetrrorism or people involved? Yes. How is that conspiracy theory?

The other concern is that the authorities were keen to stress that there was no imminent threat, they had been watching the suspects, apparently for some time (except, presumably when they needed the toilet) - so why the panic measures at airports for a week, if not for spectacle? Has the status changed that much?
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:02 / 15.08.06
But put another way: Have I seen any direct evidence that these people are terrorists? No. Has my government ever lied about the trheat of tetrrorism or people involved? Yes. How is that conspiracy theory?

It's a conspiracy theory when you have no evidence that that is what happened. Now granted no-one has presented genuine evidence that the people currently being detained are actually guilty of anything (although even in a regular criminal case would such evidence be available straight away? Genuine question). But neither has any evidence been presented that this is all a big PR by The Man. So automatically assuming one or the other without actual evidence seems a little wrong-headed, to me at least.

As I say it is right and proper that we look closely at this incident to determine what the truth of it is. It's also right and proper that the reason for the timing of the raids be looked at. If you want to speculate on this situation being spun for PR purposes I would think that's the appropriate level to look at, ie that it was considered to be a genuine threat but that they decided to do the raids now rather than later for maximum effectiveness from a PR perspective.

The official story is that events suddenly sped up do to a communication to the suspects so the authorities were forced to move a little before they were ready.

so why the panic measures at airports for a week, if not for spectacle?

Well, from one perspective, if there is the possibility of an imminant attack (ie a critical threat rating as we were at when the raids were sprung) then it is not unreasonable for the airports to try and minimise the chance of explosives disguised as everyday items being assembled in-flight. As the threat rating drops (as it has done) so the companies downgrade their restrictions.

One view = Panic measures.

Another view = Not unreasonable considering the situation, but possibly also intended to present an illusion of safety to people flying (perhaps to ward off some panicky Sun reader going a bit "air rage" when the foriegn fella one seat down gets out his iPod).
 
 
Supaglue
13:25 / 15.08.06
It's a conspiracy theory when you have no evidence that that is what happened. Now granted no-one has presented genuine evidence.... So automatically assuming one or the other without actual evidence seems a little wrong-headed, to me at least.

Quite. But in the lack of evidence, I feel entitled to speculate based on precedence. I've never automatically assumed anything.

Another view = Not unreasonable considering the situation, but possibly also intended to present an illusion of safety to people flying (perhaps to ward off some panicky Sun reader going a bit "air rage" when the foriegn fella one seat down gets out his iPod).

And how this threat has jumped up to "code: extremely scary time purple" back to "code: not so scary, you can have your water again spuce" in the space of a week is beyond me, I'm afraid.
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:07 / 15.08.06
And how this threat has jumped up to "code: extremely scary time purple" back to "code: not so scary, you can have your water again spuce" in the space of a week is beyond me, I'm afraid.

Well, we're none of us on the boards necessarily going to be familier with the in and out of when they decide to change the threat ratings are we? But, as I understand it, the level we were at recently was because an attack was about to happen. Even once they had arrested the suspects there was still a possibility that other attacks could happen.

Once the immediate danger is believed to have passed then the ratings downgraded.

Guardian article on the downgrading from critical to severe.

It's certainly fine to speculate on possible reasons why the government might be making it all up to look cool and sexy and a bit "Jack Bauer". But the fact remains that there is a genuine threat of attack from extremists in the UK, so surely that should be considered as well. Most of the posts above that follow the "PR stunt" theme don't seem to take that factor into account.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
14:23 / 15.08.06
QP, the link was interesting, but it's basically an interview with two of the lawyers of the accused, which gets my cynical hackles up as much as any comment from the government side of the fence. The "Gilles Breault" (the article gets his name wrong) stuff is weird, though. Watch them pull the 'national security card' when questioned about it.
Another interesting article here, also in French, but also based mostly on supposition. There's also a total dearth of English-language media coverage of this, which I find a bit surprising and suspicious... there are enough alternative media sources in Canada with a strong stake in standing up to the establishment that I can't imagine they'd just let this come and go with nary a word if there was more of substance to it.

There's a wider applicable issue here, though... many of these arrests, in the UK and in Canada, are the result of informants or plants surveilling groups and then arresting them when they get "too close" to violent action. But where does that fall in the scale of zero to entrapment?

The "terror plot!!!" that was "foiled!!" obviously wasn't thwarted in a last-minute save by Bruce Willis and Clive Owen rolling between the wheels of jumbo jets, firing pistols and saving orphans, which is sort of the impression you get from the screaming! headlines!, but rather (I gather) from secret-police types getting information from an insider or an informant and then arresting a whole lot of people.

But you can't just arrest somebody for chatting about something, so... assuming that there was a plot, and it was sincere, and it was foiled, somebody had to be listening and watching until some sort of threshhold was reached where they thought "aha! NOW I can arrest everybody."

I'm curious about where that line might be, and who decides when something goes from "talk" to "plot." And whether people are either strung along or given more rope than neccessary, so that somebody can turn a theoretical conversation into a terror! plot! that they can then foil! for headlines and glory.

On their side of the coin, I can't imagine how any covert agency can handle these situations without complaints. If the listener/informant lets the situation develop to the point where they can make arrests with conviction and expect them to legally stick, they'll have to have been complicit to some level, and it's entrapment. If they jump in at the first sign of trouble with a handcuff party, they're arresting people on the basis of speculation and idle (and not illegal) chatter.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
14:23 / 15.08.06
And, as with the 9/11 'Bu$h dids it!!!23!' conspiracies, they don't take into account the massive risk involved in staging an event like this. I think we can discount any cynical motivation behind these events.
Also- I didn't see much of the sexy Jack Bauer action, in fact most of the news reports I've seen tended to be composed of shots of qeues at Airports- no flashbangs being lobbed into doors and a thousand Flying Squad guys barging into somebody's front room. As far as the gun-porn went this particular operation felt subdued compared to the last one.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
14:28 / 15.08.06
(that was supposed to be a reply to Evil Scientist's post)

Matt's post raises some interesting questions about complicity and legality in counter-terrorism- maybe the topic could be thread-worthy?
 
 
Queer Pirate
00:39 / 16.08.06
You can actually have a set-up without even having the actual government involved. Counter-terrorist agencies have an agenda on their own and the current laws make it very easy to create a set-up.

The media are litterally assuming that the plot was real and nobody is asking questions... If the accused really are would-be terrorists, I'm sure the CSIS can stand having its practices investigated and monitored, right? I'm highly uncomfortable with the notion that they can do whatever they want and wave the "national security" flag whenever an embarrassing question comes up.

The whole "faceless terrorist" thing doesn't stick with me. There is a war on terror? Who is the enemy, what do they want? If you arrest people for plotting mass murder, then you'd better come up with a convincing explanation for motive. Assuming it's only religious fanaticism is just too easy and convenient. And it doesn't make much sense to launch a terrorist attack and have no political demands whatsoever, as you're not going to eradicate your enemy through terrorism - you can only hope to pressure him.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:23 / 16.08.06
But you can't just arrest somebody for chatting about something

Depends. Ever heard of conspiracy to committ murder?
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:02 / 16.08.06
Who is the enemy, what do they want?

Hang on a moment there QP. As I said earlier, there is clearly a level of risk from extremist elements which claim to be defending the Islamic world.

Now, arguements about the precision, decrimination, and ethics of TWAT aside, you cannot say that there is not a threat. Since the attack on September 11th, 2001 there have been at least three successful and highly publicised bombings of civilian populations. Bali, Madrid, and London were all traced back to fundamentalist organisations. They each caused huge casualties and significant numbers of death.

You seem to be drifting in a world where only the eevil Western governments actually do anything nasty.

Now I am not suggesting here that the supporters of TWAT haven't used it to promote their own political ends. Of course they have. Neither am I endorsing a campaign of military action which has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people in response to the (by comparison) smaller numbers of deaths that resulted from the bombings. I was a strong opponent of our illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq.

But I think it is foolish in the extreme to, when discussing this kind of thing, ignore the fact that there are terrorist organisations active in the world which do consider themselves to be in opposition to Western countries such as the US and the UK and do believe it to be a religious responsibility (so they say) to fight using any and all means available.

Assuming it's only religious fanaticism is just too easy and convenient. And it doesn't make much sense to launch a terrorist attack and have no political demands whatsoever, as you're not going to eradicate your enemy through terrorism - you can only hope to pressure him.

Well, what are you suggesting here? That the fundamentalist Islamic groups don't exist? That it's all a massive conspiracy?

Al-Qaeda, for instance, has the stated aim of eliminating foreign influence in Muslim countries (political aim for you there QP). The general point of terrorism has never been to eliminate an enemy, it's all about pressurising the enemy into doing what you want (whether it's Israeli snipers, Palestinian suicide bombers, UK-sponsored paramilitary death squads, or Al-Qaeda). You don't seem to understand that QP.

It makes perfect sense (from the terrorist's PoV) to launch a terrorist attack such as crashing planes into buildings full of people, if the end result is the targetted country reacts by wildly lashing out and, in doing so, causes even more antipathy against the West in Muslim countries. Thus increasing the likelihood of those countries minimising foreign influence over them (eventually).
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
10:03 / 16.08.06
*Warning – this is an outrageously long post and quite possibly contains nothing you already don’t know. Please feel free to skip it.*

sorenson - I think the economic costs associated with this particular scare alone are enough to suggest that the government didn’t manufacture it – governments care a lot about money.

MattShepherd - As much as it's tempting to think that people stage this for political gain, the repercussions of being CAUGHT faking something like this would be so ridiculously huge that I can't imagine even politicians throwing the dice on it.

Stoat - But they can't NOT respond, or they'll be accused of laxity.

Evil Scientist - Considering the massive amount of fire that the British Government has been under in the past four years for it's part on GWOT I think it would be pretty risky for them to pull an illusory victory out of the hat. Especially considering the amount of scrutiny this most recent anti-terrorsim raid has pulled from media sources.

Okay – my position is that personally, I think there was probably some kind of genuine threat but that the situation has been exploited, most likely greatly exaggerated, for political and security service gain. I believe that there are extremist groups and individuals that would do harm to people in the UK, including those on planes.

However, what’s most been troubling my little brain is the oft-cited notion of accountability and consequence. Immediately following the raised terror alert, an opinion which seemed to dominate much discussion was that the government/security services were ‘damned if they do, damned if they don’t’.

The comments above, which all come from this thread, either support that or suggest that the government wouldn’t dare fake this threat because of the consequences.

What I want to know is, what consequences? Let’s look at the record – the government took the UK into a war on Iraq based on the lie of WMDs. That has been revealed for the falsity it was. The government has subsequently been re-elected. Consequence for deceiving the British public and forcing the country into an illegal war with massive loss of civilian life in Iraq – none.

Police shoot dead an innocent man in a Tube station in London. They then deliberately release misinformation about the individual and his actions to make him appear to be a threat when he wasn’t. Following investigation, no individual is to be charged in relation to this shooting and the Met Police will be prosecuted under H&S rules. Consequence for deceiving the British public and killing an innocent man – largely none, although Met P might face a fine which as a publicly funded body we all, effectively, pay.

Armed police raid a house in Forest Gate and shoot an unarmed man in his pyjamas. No member of the family in the house is subsequently accused of any crime and no evidence of any terrorist activity was found in the house. Following investigation, no individual is to be prosecuted and indeed some of those involved in this travesty of a raid have since been promoted and received honours. Consequence for wrongly labelling a family as terrorists, raiding their house and shooting one of them – none.

So it seems pretty clear to me that they are not damned if they do, even if they are completely wrong, never apologise, are not accountable and face no consequences.

On the damned if they don’t front – Stoatie’s ‘accusations of laxity’, I have not seen any examples of this happening and I can’t see why it would happen because we simply wouldn’t know.

The flow of information when it comes to ‘national security’ matters is generally tight and controlled on a one-way flow basis. It was reported that at least one of the July 7 bombers had 'entered the radar' of the security services well before the incident but for whatever reasons he was not being scrutinised at the time he blew people up.

Yet unless I’ve missed something, and I work in media and consume far too much of it every day, I have not seen accusations of laxity, negligence or maladministration levelled at security services. I have not seen people losing their jobs or being charged with anything relating to a failure to protect the public.

Maybe they shouldn’t be, but how would I know because they aren’t going to tell me, are they? In addition to this, it is paramount to treason, up goes the cry of ‘the terrorists have won’, if someone suggests that maybe, you know, the government/security services failed in some respect. We’ve all got to stick together, you know. This is not the time to be undermining the government/security services by making allegations against them. Etc.

If enough time is allowed to pass between the arrest of people on various shady allegations and their subsequent quiet release into the public when no charges have actually been brought, these things tend to slip under the public consciousness. See, oh just about any of the many cases of arrest and release of Muslim people, mostly, in Britain over the last five years. I can cite some cases if required but I honestly think most people will know of a situation that fits.

Evil Scientist mentions the ‘massive amount of fire’ the government has been under during the last four years for its part in TWAT. Sorry, when was that? So that was before, during and after they were re-elected? Did I miss the resulting wave of public apologies and ministerial resignations? Maybe there have been some in the press attacking them, but I for one don’t see a single damn consequence of that.

Sorenson, and many media commentators, point to the economic impact of this. That’s a complex one, but personally, I’ll be interested to see at the end of the day who ends up bearing the real financial cost of this. So far I’m seeing lots of reports about the fact that most people weren’t aware that their insurance policies don’t cover them for this, so it won’t be the insurance companies. The airlines make obscene amounts of money and I am fairly confident can soak up flight cancellations lasting a few days – no doubt they will be considering some kind of compensation claims against someone (the government, ie taxpayers, perhaps?).

And, interestingly, this hit people flying OUT of the UK. If the worst-case scenario is that a certain percentage of the people who would have taken their holidays abroad, spend them and their money in the UK instead, how’s that going to hurt the economy? Reports from people who flew into the UK during this period indicate that with the exception of the US and a couple of other countries, no-one faced any restrictions/problems flying into the UK throughout the entire ‘crisis’.

In addition, people flying in from the US and even those caught up flying back to the US (the most economically important tourist group for the UK), seem more willing than many Europeans to appreciate the work of the security services and to believe that a threat has been foiled and they should feel grateful. I realise this is a generalisation and is not applicable to every American flying between the US and the UK, but I’d be happy to discuss what I base this opinion on if people would like to. I sincerely hope that it does not offend anyone to read this opinion.

I could go on about how I think Tony Blair no longer cares about the potential future political consequences of his actions, even if these could be demonstrated, and has emasculated his government to the extent that the majority of his MPs cannot or will not do anything about it, but I glance back up and realise I have gone on quite enough.

In short, I do not trust this government, and unlike many others I don’t see why they would not grossly exaggerate and exploit this situation for their own ends. I think they are too smart to have completely and utterly fabricated every aspect of the alleged threat, but quite what might have been at the base of it remains to be seen.

I’m not meaning to pick on any of the people I’ve quoted, it’s just that they have used lines of argument which I think represent many people’s opinions. Sorry for going on…
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
11:01 / 16.08.06
On the damned if they don’t front – Stoatie’s ‘accusations of laxity’, I have not seen any examples of this happening and I can’t see why it would happen because we simply wouldn’t know.

You wouldn't notice a terrorist attack? They're pretty loud.

Accusations of laxity are made after every sucessful terrorist attack, from 9/11 to 7/7 to Madrid. If this attack- presuming it was a genuine threat- had happened we'd all be posting in the 'Terror Outrage not Foiled' thread on how the incompetant security services failed us, and I doubt anybody would be saying 'well, it was bound to happen, nothing you can do really'. Seeing as the attack was foiled we instead complain about strong-arm tactics, over-inflation of the threat etc.
Hence 'Damned if you do, Damned if you don't'
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
11:17 / 16.08.06
You wouldn't notice a terrorist attack? They're pretty loud.

Accusations of laxity are made after every sucessful terrorist attack, from 9/11 to 7/7 to Madrid. If this attack- presuming it was a genuine threat- had happened we'd all be posting in the 'Terror Outrage not Foiled' thread on how the incompetant security services failed us, and I doubt anybody would be saying 'well, it was bound to happen, nothing you can do really'. Seeing as the attack was foiled we instead complain about strong-arm tactics, over-inflation of the threat etc.
Hence 'Damned if you do, Damned if you don't'.


Sorry, I obviously wasn't clear. I didn't mean that I wouldn't notice a terrorist attack. I mean that the security services are unlikely, following a terrorist attack, to release a bunch of information clearly informing the public that they knew all about it and did nothing. Oops.

Genuine question - could you give me some examples of accusations of laxity in the wake of the July attacks? More importantly, can you show me evidence of any consequences of this laxity? Same questions for September 11 or Madrid? Not just public accusations of laxity but consequences from this? Could you give me some examples of security services/governments giving us a 'hands up - we got it wrong, we're sorry people died' release of information?

I don't believe that a bit of criticism on message boards and a few questions in the papers constitutes either accountability or consequences. Let's say I saw someone in the street and I thought they were going to shoot me, so I shot them first. Turned out, I was wrong and they weren't armed. The consequences for me would not be criticism on message boards and a few questions in the papers. My life would change forever and I would most likely spend much of it in jail. I am expected to be accountable for my actions.

What do you believe would be the consequences for the security services and the government if evidence were to come to light that this threat had been grossly exaggerated? What do you think will happen if those arrested are eventually released without charge? I'm not saying they definitely will, I'm asking you what you think would actually happen as a consequence of what would be a serious error?
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:31 / 16.08.06
Good post Tabitha.

If I can address a couple of points:

Evil Scientist mentions the ‘massive amount of fire’ the government has been under during the last four years for its part in TWAT. Sorry, when was that? So that was before, during and after they were re-elected? Did I miss the resulting wave of public apologies and ministerial resignations? Maybe there have been some in the press attacking them, but I for one don’t see a single damn consequence of that.

As far as I have seen over the past four years the media has been constantly criticising the government for it's behaviour with regards to the GWOT. Even papers which normally were pro-Blair were criticising him for Iraq, the 45 minutes statement, etc. Rightly so.

Both the other major political parties have been using the constant failures of Blair et al and the security forces to weaken Labour's position (whether they're doing that for personnal gain or actual concern depends on your PoV). Popularity for the current government is far less than it was before 2001 (as far as I am aware).

As for actual tangible punishments of the people involved in the various cover-ups, lies, etc. I agree totally. No one responsible appears to have been prosecuted. It's shit and it pisses me off. Blair's never been taken to task for all of that 45 minutes bullshit (mainly because he shrugs and says "Oh hey well I believed too at the time guys."), no-one involved in the shooting of Mr de Menezes has been prosecuted.

Regarding resignations, you certainly missed a few. Robin Cook resigned over the Iraq War for one.

The re-election question. Well I think you have to bear in mind that GWOT is one factor out of many that people consider when they're voting. That may not sit well with you or I to whom this kind of thing matters greatly, but it is unfortunately how it works.

Immediately following the raised terror alert, an opinion which seemed to dominate much discussion was that the government/security services were ‘damned if they do, damned if they don’t’

By "damned if they do...etc" I personally think they meant that they were either going to be criticised for exagerating claims of the level of threat once they acted or not acting quickly enough if they waited until bombers were walking onto the planes.

In relation to this topic, from today's Guardian:

People are definitely sceptical.

Like I say, my point is not that we should blindly follow and believe everything the government says (in fact, given the last few years we should be sceptical and demand proof). But we should also bear in mind that there is a possibility that this was a genuine plot that was actually stopped because, as I said earlier, it's not like the extremist groups are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs.
 
  

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