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Terror Outrage Foiled

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We're The Great Old Ones Now

12:59 / 10.08.06

So, a fiendish plot has been foiled, and on the face of it, that's great. However...

the timing is convenient for the government, in that only recently another cry went up for less whinging and moaning about civil liberties and more concrete action and good British lip-stiffening.

I do not suggest that this alert is manufactured, although that kind of thing has been suggested before. At this point, I find myself wondering only who knew what when; was the release of the statement about reducing civil liberties in order to protect the public made in the knowledge that there would shortly be a shocking scare?

That said, the image painted of the plot at this point is utterly ghastly; passenger planes blown up over major cities. Brrrr. If it was a real threat - well done, the spooks.

13:24 / 10.08.06

As Spiegel points out, this plan seems to be Ramzi Yusuf's Oplan Bojinka all over again.

The next plan would have involved at least five Al-Qaeda operatives, including Yousef, Khan, Shah and two more unknown operatives. Starting on January 21, 1995 and ending on January 22, 1995, they would set the bombs on 11 United States-bound airliners that had stopovers all around East Asia and Southeast Asia. All of the flights had two legs. The bombs would be planted inside life jackets under seats on the first leg, when each bomber would disembark. He would then board one or two more flights and repeat.
...
The "Mark II" "microbombs" had Casio digital watches as the timers, stabilizers that looked like cotton wool balls, and an undetectable nitroglycerin as the explosive.

13:43 / 10.08.06

In Canada (where I'm from), 17 people were arrested in June and accused of plotting a terrorist attack. My problem with it is that the organization that lead to the arrests, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), has a history of making fake bomb calls and of acting as agents provocateurs, infiltrating activist groups to incite activists to undertake criminal activities, often even supplying weapons and explosives - and then tipping the RCMP into arresting everyone.

Given that we're currently stuck with a Conservative minority government which would very much like to become a majority government, I find the timing of such an arrest rather disturbing. The CSIS also has a vested interest in uncovering terrorist plots - real and imagined - as it means more budget and extended powers for the organization. With the 2001 anti-"terrorist" laws, it is very unlikely that the arrested will be entitled to a fair trial and much of the proof will be concealed from the defendants and the public - us.

All of this makes us so easy to manipulate, with no chance whatsoever to evaluate for ourselves whether the allegations of criminal activities are true or not.

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:57 / 10.08.06

Even by this government's standards, Reid's latest attempts to justify further new human-rights-bustin' legislation are a load of risible bullshit. Well, they would have to be, wouldn't they? Apparently, "those who "just don't get it", whose opposition [is]undermining the struggle", include:

The media commentators who "apparently give more prominence to the views of Islamist terrorists rather than democratically elected Muslim politicians like premier Maliki of Iraq or President Karzai of Afghanstan".

That's certainly a feature of the UK media that I've noticed, especially the more popular press publications - they certainly have a lot of time for the views of "Islamist terrorists", and are always giving them opinion columns, saying how right they are, that kind of thing. Why, just the other day the front cover of The Sun was 'WE SHOULD LISTEN TO AL-QUEDA', while ITV news recently gave a fawning interview to Bin Laden and editorialised heavily in his favourSHUT UP REID YOU MINDLESS THUG.

18:13 / 10.08.06

And the Muslim politicians he mentions were %soooooooo% democratically elected, weren't they? With the occpupying force and everything...

18:18 / 10.08.06

And let me quote this precious piece from the same article (ittalics mine for added sarcasm):

The home secretary yesterday gave the thinktank Demos his strongest hint yet that a new round of anti-terror legislation is on the way this autumn by warning that traditional civil liberty arguments were not so much wrong as just made for another age.

"Sometimes we may have to modify some of our own freedoms in the short term in order to prevent their misuse and abuse by those who oppose our fundamental values and would destroy all of our freedoms in the modern world," he said.

This is creepy in a very "oh my god, we're so fucked" kind of way. I wonder what that "new round of anti-terror legislation" is gonna be like...

18:49 / 10.08.06

Please, someone tell me what to do. I want to do something. Give me something to do that's constructive and doesn't involve KILLING THAT FUCKING GODDAMN ARSEHOLE.

19:53 / 10.08.06

Wow, look at that! It certainly didn't take long for this thread to get negative.

Nick: A CNN or MSNBC news report here in the States said that the British police have been on top of this since April. NPR reported that the British authorities were waiting to get ahold of as many conspirators as possible before things went kablooey (Kudos to the coppers/intel agencies for a job well done). While the timing may seem suspicious, apparently the terrorists were going to go on a dry run in two days. It's likely that the police figured that time for collecting more information had finally run out.

20:00 / 10.08.06

On the negative front: I just hope a couple of days from now it doens't turn out the people arrested were innocent and the Police screw it up in its earnest to show results...again.

Because, by now, it would be just a bad cliché...

20:13 / 10.08.06

Well, even if this does turn out to be a false alarm (something that seems unlikely at this time) at least no-one has been shot in the process of the arrests, which would seem to be show some signs of progress at least.

One thing that did strike me as darkly humourous was the moment when a an aquaintence of one of the men arrested was being asked what kind of a person the accused was.

He got halfway through that old cliche that is reserved almost exclusively for mass murderers before realising what he was saying:

"He was quite quiet and kept himself... to himself"

20:17 / 10.08.06

All liquids outside of medications and baby formula have been banned from U.S. flights. The duration of this policy, I do not know. I hate the hassle of flying but this seems like a perfectly acceptable restriction, at least in the short run.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:07 / 10.08.06

Yes. Once liquids stop being volatile, everything will be fine.

Bless you, Slim. You remind me that Christmas is a magical time, sometimes.

Tryphena Absent

21:09 / 10.08.06

I'd be more concerned about not being able to read on the plane.

21:14 / 10.08.06

So I am not the only one who immediately thought: Fake.

It probably is real, the arrested people may really wanted to blow themselves up.

But I will believe that, when I read about it in a reliable german newspaper. Fox news or whatever british pendant will not do.

If they ship these people off to some guantanamo style base and we never hear from them again and the government doesn´t show the press some proof "because that would be against national security", then it is fake to push some new patriotic laws or lay the groundwork for the current and next wars against terrorists be they 30 or 13 years old.

Bush, Blair and friends have to often cried wolf or blatantly lied, so no more trust in advance.

Tryphena Absent

21:42 / 10.08.06

Well it doesn't matter whether this is real or not, it simply doesn't logically follow that the infringement of liberties Reid suggests gains any strength because of this event or indeed makes more sense.

22:05 / 10.08.06

You know, maybe I am gullible, but I doubt very much that this is a manufactured scare, no matter how well it fits into the political desires of the current crop of governments. I think that governments are very good at taking events and fanning the flames to reach their political goals (and it’s true, what government wouldn’t want more power and less of those pesky civil liberties?), but that is a different thing to inventing situations. I think the economic costs associated with this particular scare alone are enough to suggest that the government didn’t manufacture it – governments care a lot about money.

It’s more like a moral panic – everybody is so worked up about the threat of terrorism that truth kind of becomes irrelevant. What matters is the reaction to the perceived threats – the images of policemen with huge guns, the over-the-top stories about security measures and the threat of terrible loss of life to bombs.

The priorities are all messed up precisely because there is a lot more power to be gained by milking the threat of terrorism for all it is worth – if they really cared about the health and wellbeing of their constituents, there would be a lot more focus on things like domestic violence, smoking and road safety, which kill many more people every year than terrorism ever will but that don’t add anything to the cause of concentrating more power in the hands of the government.

Phex: Dorset Doom

22:09 / 10.08.06

All this happened a day after Reid gave a speech saying that Britain is under the most threat since World War Two that because "we've"* given up certain civil liberties Britain is safer. It's possible that he knew about the sting- these things don't just happen overnight- but it still gets my eeval-government-con$piracy nose waggling.

*=I put that in scare-quotes because I don't remember the government asking me, or anybody, whether Britain's anti-terrorism laws were okay.

Regrettable Juvenilia

22:24 / 10.08.06

Wow, look at that! It certainly didn't take long for this thread to get negative.

Could you explain a little bit about what you mean by this comment, Slim? Only it strikes me that Nick's opening post provided a more full and balanced perspective than just "yay go security forces the terrists have been foiled!", and that the thread was not intended to consist of just that kind of cheerleading.

00:44 / 11.08.06

Here are two statements I believe should be made in this public debate:

1) No successful terrorist attack has been carried out in the U.K. since 9/11. Two alleged terrorist plots have been foiled. It appears authorities have had enough powers to successfully prevent attacks from occurring. No further anti-terrorist legislation is necessary.

2) Aren't terrorists supposed to hate us because we have "freedom"? Don't they want to rob us of "freedom"? Then what the fuck are we doing by taking away our own liberties? Can't somebody say out loud that they'd rather risk their lives on the unlikely possibility of a terrorist attack rather than sacrificing their civil liberties?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

01:01 / 11.08.06

No successful terrorist attack has been carried out in the U.K. since 9/11.

Are you absolutely sure about that?

02:33 / 11.08.06

Yes. Once liquids stop being volatile, everything will be fine.

Bless you, Slim. You remind me that Christmas is a magical time, sometimes.

Thanks, Haus. Now I have an inbox full of PMs about what a dick you're being...
Back on topic- The policy is acceptable in the short-term because at this point it may not be known exactly how many people were involved in the plot. Banning liquids for the day seems perfectly reasonable. Howevever, I don't see this as being sustainable over the long-run.

Could you explain a little bit about what you mean by this comment, Slim? Only it strikes me that Nick's opening post provided a more full and balanced perspective than just "yay go security forces the terrists have been foiled!", and that the thread was not intended to consist of just that kind of cheerleading.

No problem, Flyboy. Nick's post was more than adequate. I was referring to A)Queer Pirate's story which struck me as an attempt at making an analogy, and B)the multiple posts mentioning reductions in civil liberties. By the seventh post, Boboss was trying to stave off a murderous rage.

On the whole, you're right in that Nick's post is more than "Yay!" or "Boo!" regarding the terror plot. But Barbelith took what should be seen as a victory and immediately turned it towards a negative.

By the by, congratulating the British police isn't cheerleading. It's merely recognizing that they did a good job.

05:02 / 11.08.06

As much as this may be a real threat. I don't understand the justification behind no cabin luggage. They have reported that security checks for hold luggage have not changed. So how can they be sure a laptop surrounded by the rest of your luggage within a locked bag is safer than you having to remove it from all packaging and send it through the x-ray machine.

And being stuck on a plane with nothing to read...aaarrggghhh

ONLY NICE THINGS

05:40 / 11.08.06

Thanks, Haus. Now I have an inbox full of PMs about what a dick you're being...

Gosh. Assuming that's true, some people have far too much time on their hands. Have they considered batiq? Or, you know, a needy, abusive relationship with somebody who actually exists?

However, sorry about that. Was pissed. However, the point remains. Liquids are not going to stop being explosive or inflammable at any point in the future. The failure to ban bottles which might perfectly well contain accelerants or explosive compounds from hand luggage so far has already demonstrated that the airport authorities are either very slow on the uptake or not prepared to inconvenience their passengers to the extent of banning liquids, despite this threat. Unless you maintain this ban, then the current prohibition is primarily for PR purposes in terms of the longer view of preventing terror attacks.

06:56 / 11.08.06

Barbelith took what should be seen as a victory and immediately turned it towards a negative.

some of barbelith took what you think should be seen as a victory and explained their own position on the matter, which you see as negative.

Wow, look at that! It certainly didn't take long for this thread to get negative.
dude, now i have an inbox full of PMs about what a dick you're being.
that's not to say i agree, nor is it to say that i dont.
i'm just reporting what figuratively thousands of barbelith mebers felt like sharing with me and me alone.

they're scared of you, slim.
they think you might call the whole board negative again.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

08:55 / 11.08.06

Alienari As much as this may be a real threat. I don't understand the justification behind no cabin luggage.

Maybe it's just to save time. We tell all people not to take drinks near the computers because although they will probably be okay they might spill them. It saves us time to tell everyone no drinks. Maybe it'll be quicker and easier for the police to tell everyone 'no liquids'. It does seem daft but maybe it'll mean that all the arguments the police will have will just be with people because they can't have drinks on a plane rather than "well you let him take that type of drink"?

Slim, I think scepticism on this board towards the police is any combination of factors, not least that relations between the police and the Islamic community, like any number of other communities in London is poor. And these sorts of operations get maximum visiblity from the police when it's going well and then when it turns out to be a mistake they get all coy, such as when, a few weeks ago, they announced they were releasing the two men they'd noisily arrested in Forest gate because it was a cock-up. The armed response units seem to work on the principle that it is POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD!!1!1!11! to hold them responsible for the deaths of innocent people they shoot and they tend to go on strike whenever there's a danger that they might be so held. So I think it's hardly surprising that Muslim community groups and a section of the community on here are doubtful as to whether there really is a danger.

I think it's also a mark of the different recent history of the UK as opposed to the US. Most of us grew up with the threat of IRA bombings anywhere in the mainland UK, something the US wasn't prepared for post Sept. 2001. So therefore, in the case of a genuine issue I don't think we panic as much. We just start grumbling about how this inconveniences us.

FWIW, I'm at the moment assuming there was something going on and it was pretty serious. I'm concerned that the police have released the names of the people they've arrested as that affects their right to a fair trial, but will change my position if the news reports change. I won't hold my breath waiting for the police to hold up their hands. Still, at least no-one got shot this time...

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

09:41 / 11.08.06

the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), has a history of making fake bomb calls and of acting as agents provocateurs, infiltrating activist groups to incite activists to undertake criminal activities, often even supplying weapons and explosives - and then tipping the RCMP into arresting everyone

QP, is there any reputable source for any of this? I'm aware of rampant incompetence, and creepy "infiltration" of Muslim groups (but I assume that's par of most national security agencies in most countries, these days) but I've never heard of any real cases of entrapment to the degree of CSIS giving people explosives and then calling the RCMP on them.

Less threadrotty, I'm in the "not fake" camp. As much as it's tempting to think that people stage this for political gain, the repercussions of being CAUGHT faking something like this would be so ridiculously huge that I can't imagine even politicians throwing the dice on it.

12:51 / 11.08.06

Considering it took me two hours to get through the group cattle line returning from an international flight before this increase (yeah off a secure flight through Customs back through security to get to a domestic flight = two hours +) I can't imagine the agony of flying right now. No extra water equals dehydrated (screw your tiny cups of three sips flight steward) nothing to read etc etc I feel like this also works to condition us from traveling abroad.

Which considering for an American it is one of the only ways to see what the rest of the world actual thinks is going on is a bit ominous.

First they took away my knitting needles. Now my water, but you know they haven't managed to take away my flying tiger claw foo. I'll still be ready to defend my Gawd and Country against what? Air Marshals? Shit if you can fake explosives/corrosives as 'water' why the fuck not as baby formula?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

13:06 / 11.08.06

I think a lot of it is to do with being seen to do something. All this stuff about mothers having to taste baby milk to prove it's not explosives- would it really prove anything? Like, at all?

Most of these measures will achieve absolutely nothing in terms of foiling terrorism- but if they did nothing, or just the behind-the-scenes stepping up of security and stuff, people would complain that the threat wasn't being taken seriously.

I'd hazard a guess that even top security people would admit there is no way of reducing the risk to zero. At some point, they have to reach a point where they're doing everything they can to keep the risk down, and there'll be nothing else they can do. But they can't NOT respond, or they'll be accused of laxity.

15:02 / 11.08.06

Slim: By the by, congratulating the British police isn't cheerleading. It's merely recognizing that they did a good job.

Well at least they may get to trial in this case, which is more than some have had.

A coup of this nature was definitely needed wasn't it? I mean the score is: Innocents shot by authorities 2 crazed death-obsessed terrorists shot by authorities 0. And when's a better time to turn the tables around for the Home Office! All those murderers and rapists that were released and lost? It was because they were immigrants and that bad Human Rights Act is stoppinhg us doing our job.

Excuse me if I don't hold my breath about 'intelligence'.

Apparently the bottles of wine served on planes are still glass, which seems a bit odd.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

16:15 / 11.08.06

To me this is that old thing about paranoids having enemies too; I'm not prepared to say that there is no terror threat to the UK (although there may or may not be anything resembling the kind of tentacled super-organisation of evil Mullahs called 'Al Qaeda' the government sometimes seems to want us to believe in), so that leaves me with the assumption, unless this is going to turn out to be a huge screw up, that this was a genuinely serious and terrible attempt to kill a bunch of people.

At the same time, it seems pretty clear that Reid etc. have known for months what was going on. In the light of that, the timing of the announcement looks to have been chosen for maximum political wallop. That would be moderately legitimate politicking, but it would still be obnoxious, and it would be in order to achieve further reductions in personal and collective freedoms.

At the risk of rotting my own thread: this fits the more general picture of civil liberties' erosion by this government. Part of me is curious, though; if privacy is going to be thrown out of the window, are we as a society going to have to accept certain activities which are still notionally frowned-upon and in some cases illegal or unlawful, as it turns out that they are in fact commonplace?

17:30 / 11.08.06

What activities do you have in mind, there, Nick?

In the light of that, the timing of the announcement looks to have been chosen for maximum political wallop.

October Surprise, perhaps? Is there a UK election next month? If you stick those two words in Google News, you get a few hits about Bush/Cheney and the Israel situation, but they're a couple months early for the November mid-terms here. Unless it's part of a parade of surprises....

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

18:59 / 11.08.06

No UK election, but Mr Tony's under fairly heavy fire at the moment.

19:33 / 11.08.06

But Barbelith took what should be seen as a victory and immediately turned it towards a negative.

For the record, Slim, my turn towards the negative was in response to our fucking infuriatingly stupid Home Secretary's infuriatingly stupid comments.

As for the rest, well, I think characterising this as simply good work well done by our steadfast coppers without even considering the possibility that there may, just may, be more to this than meets the eye is downright ridiculous.

And, whatever the truth of the situation, it sure is convenient, and it sure is being used as fuel for our government's particularly nasty little fire.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

19:44 / 11.08.06

Only slightly tangential: a few notes from a language perspective on how airports are dealing with this, from Language Log.

19:55 / 11.08.06

As far as i'm concerned, I didn't turn it to negative, |I just hoped it wouldn't turn to the negative by itself. But, as days go by, it semms more and more that, this time, the Yard guys nailed thwe right people for once. I overheard somewhere that they even founf a couple of martyrdom videos made by some of the people arrested, which, if it's true, will totally dismiss the possibility of this being yet another screw-up.

And, although I do dislike the Bush & Blair administrations, and I do wish they loose in everything they do, I can't in honest mind be against them when they actually prevent the enemies they - and the politicians who came before them - made over the years from killing innocent people.

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