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Making Magic Up vs. Learning through Tuition

 
  

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Jawsus-son Starship
08:58 / 07.08.06
I've specifically avoided posting this in the dabblers thread as I want the gods honest truth, even though I am just a dabbler. I wanna talk about making shit up, and learning through teaching.

The way I figure it, everything we do must have been created by someone out there; ignoring the concept of insight into magic that comes from years of experience, on a base level a human being has made up every ritual or idea that is used on a daily basis. Now, I think that the stuff that sticks must be the stuff that works, however, how sucessful can anyone be without any classical teaching?

I'm oh-so very new to this how field, and comming from a catholic background I find the whole situation very interesting, but if we could talk about how others have learned, any stories that want to be told, expression of ideas,,, I dunno. I wish someone who was slightly more intelligent and verbose could have started this and then I could glean some cool information.
 
 
illmatic
09:14 / 07.08.06
I don't get exactly what you're asking Mathlete.

If you asking is it better to learn from others, or to learn direct from one's own experience. I'd say, why draw the dichotomy? Any teacher worth their salt, in any field, is going to be encouraging you to find out stuff for yourself, and create and learn from your own life and circumstances. In fact, you might take such an attitude (along with "I don't know - you tell me") as a sign of a good teacher.

Does that help?

And bear in mind, if we take the latter as our number one option, something's got to be shaping that experience and it's usually its going to be books (or worse, the internet). And I'd rather have a pint and interact with a real world human being than some smelly old tome any day. Gets you off your bum, out the house and out into the world. It's worth getting exposure to as many people and ideas as possible, IMO.
 
 
illmatic
09:27 / 07.08.06
Or are you asking if you shouldn't just make things up?

I think it's a bit of a compex business, though you might want to read about Spare's life and magick to see an example of this in action. He's the exception though, rather than the rule, and I think he probably had had some kind of experiences which made him do this.

I think the thing to do, is when learning about area x, whatever it is that interests you, is to bear in mind it's there precisely to provide an outlet and stimulation for your own creativty and ideas - otherwise you're just learning a "dead form". Might be interesting at first, but ultimately you've got to be putting something of yourself into it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:31 / 07.08.06
Interesting topic, Math.

how sucessful can anyone be without any classical teaching?

Depends what you mean by classical teaching, really. I mean, I've had a few success but I've never had a teacher, as such, mostly learning from texts, from my peers (and increasingly from the nice invisible people).

So first I'd like to see you unpack what teaching means to you in this context: a more conventional educational setting, learning as part of a group? A one-to-one student/mentor relationship? Dialogue with one's friends and peers? Do you include learning from books and such as 'teaching'?

As for making stuff up... hrrm. That's a pretty complicated topic all by itself. There's a big difference between throwing together a purely invented ritual of the "I'm going to hop on one leg all the way to Sainsbury's and then cover the trolley park with Crazy Foam to charge my new sigil!" variety, and crafting a working based on your own knowledge, experience and inspiration.

A fair chunk of what I do is arguably 'made up,' since I do a lot of work with Gods whose original forms of worship are lost to us. There are a few records, mostly written down by people from outwith the community actually involved in that worship--people from other nations or later periods in history. In the case of some of my guys, there's no record of any worship at all. There's no recorded ritual for approaching Loki, for example, so I've had to develop my own, based largely on a mixture of Northern lore and African dispora magicoreligious practices.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:11 / 07.08.06
on a base level a human being has made up every ritual or idea that is used on a daily basis.

On a base level, everything that constitutes human culture, science, art and industry has been "made up", but that doesn't necessitate that the best practical approach to learning something like medicine would be to "make it up" since the whole of medical science was effectively just "made up" by people in the first place. You wouldn't expect a surgeon or anaesthetist to be making it up as they went along, just because somebody once did. I don't see why magic should be judged by any different criteria.

Having said that, I'm not sure what you mean by "classical teaching". I think you have to pin down what you mean a bit more. I wasn't aware that there were classical academies of magic where you could study as part of the magical establishment. I'm certainly not a product of such an institution. I learned magic through a combination of three main factors.

Firstly, by experimenting with every form of magic that appeals to my imagination and aesthetic, observing my results, figuring out what works for me and what doesn't, trying to get what works to work even better, and trying to fathom if my problem areas are inherent in the process or based on some flawed understanding I'm bringing to the table myself. I think I can safely say that most of the really valuable stuff I've learned about magic has come about through trial and error as a result of the process itself. Have I "made it up"? Not exactly, I've experimented widely and developed a working approach to magic that continues to grow and develop every single day - as magic is ultimately a living process not a static body of knowledge.

Secondly, I've tried my best to attain a reasonable understanding of as broad a range of magical processes as possible. I've made both academic and practical studies of the magic of various cultures and traditions, in order to gain a broader and more rounded understanding of the field as a whole. I don't want to reinvent the wheel if I don't have to. Magic is a very old business. Some of it has been written down, some of it hasn't. I'm engaged in an ongoing study of the recorded literature, because much of this is readily available and I'd be fairly ignorant if I chose to overlook what has been passed down. People have died for it. It's valuable.

There's a lot there to learn, but it can only really be understood through experiential practice. For instance, I've learned my witchcraft directly from the deities I work with, ways of calling upon them, their tastes and preferences, how they like being interacted with, recipes for oils and incenses, instructions for making tools, how to work their magic under their auspices and guidance. All of this has developed organically and over time as a living magical process. It's been gifted to me, imparted by the Gods, it's precious and secret and potent because of this.

Had I just pulled such material out of my arse, on a Saturday afternoon when I had nothing better to do, and just "made up" a load of cool sounding shit that would constitute my own new shiny magical system - fully formed and ready to be put into practice - it just wouldn't ring true in any meaningful way. It wouldn't be invested with any power, it wouldn't be alive and magical, it would just be a fairly self-indulgent imaginative exercise rooted in idle fancy.

Thirdly, I've learned an awful lot from hanging out with other magicians. A few of these I might consider to have been my "teachers", but in the most informal sense possible really. It's just mates, who are a bit more advanced than me, and who I've gone down the pub with and had long fascinating conversations about the business over the years. You pick things up off people. It's interesting to see how other people go about doing things. For instance, my own practice has probably been shaped more than I realise by hanging out with a load of people into tantra. I don't practice tantra, but you soak up a few perspectives and it makes you think about things in different ways. All of my best teachers have just been people in my life, who I've learned something valuable from, often by some imperceptible osmosis.

So I think your dichotomy of "making it up" versus "classical training" is a bit of a false one, when you try to apply it to the actual living experience of learning magic. It just doesn't happen in such a cut-and-dried way. It's always a much messier, stranger, organic process of uncovering, understanding and becoming than your question allows for.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
10:38 / 07.08.06
Having said that, I'm not sure what you mean by "classical teaching". I think you have to pin down what you mean a bit more.

By teaching, and classical teaching at that, I mean the way we have learnt the majority of what we know as people; be it from the standard classroom situation (though in this case it would be reading books and talking with someone you view as a teacher figure, learning specific rituals etc.), through to how I learnt to tell stories (through listening to my grandfather as a young un). Making stuff up is just that - going "well, I'll do this this and this, see if that works, then throw in a little of whatever". There is a slight bleed between the two - anything you are going to make up is going to be heavily influenced by what you have learnt, right?

A one-to-one student/mentor relationship? Dialogue with one's friends and peers? Do you include learning from books and such as 'teaching'?

So in this case, this is pretty much what I mean by teaching.

and crafting a working based on your own knowledge, experience and inspiration.

and this is what I mean by making stuff up.

Had I just pulled such material out of my arse, on a Saturday afternoon when I had nothing better to do, and just "made up" a load of cool sounding shit that would constitute my own new shiny magical system - fully formed and ready to be put into practice - it just wouldn't ring true in any meaningful way.

I would argue that this isn't always the case - if we ignore the idea of doing magic to be cool. As I've stated, relatively new to the game, but it would seem to me that sucess with well known systems of magic could be viewed as psychosymatic - as in, as it worked for so and so, it will work for me. I'm not sure who it was, maybe mordant, whoever, suggested that children using stories to influence thier world is like adults using magic. I guess a kind of belief in what you're doing is the most important thing - if this belief can be mapped on because of influence from other success (like in major religions) than thats a powerful tool. Complete belief is difficult to replicate in a new system, and not trying to be an iconoclast or the rebel or anything, but if we had that belief in everything we did, made up by ourselves or not, wouldn't we be more sucessful in our attempts? I have a friend, great artist, who says that the reason he's so good with his hands, drawing, sculpture, whatever, is because of what he calls "confidence of line" (not sure if thats his phrase or he's ripped it off). We apply this to all aspects of our lives though - wanna talk to a girl; "confidence of line" . Wanna get served in a busy pub; "confidence of line" . Playing football on sunday; "confidence of line" Wanna summon a deity; "confidence of line".

I think the thing to do, is when learning about area x, whatever it is that interests you, is to bear in mind it's there precisely to provide an outlet and stimulation for your own creativty and ideas - otherwise you're just learning a "dead form". Might be interesting at first, but ultimately you've got to be putting something of yourself into it.

Good point - I assume that we all put bits of ourselves, our little idosycracies, into whatever we create - we all speak the same language, but any book written by us as individuals would be different from a book written by someone else - plagarism aside. In magic, I guess the same thing happens. We mull around the workings and rituals and ideas and theories and put our own little spin on it. However, if (to simile for a second) if we view that as a path, what about completely wandering off of it?
 
 
illmatic
10:58 / 07.08.06
n magic, I guess the same thing happens.

I don't think it's exactly the same thing, Math. In magick, this is occurence - the synthesis of your own experience with whatever you're doing - is the actual purpose of it. It's not a side-effect, its the whole bloody point in the first place.

However, if (to simile for a second) if we view that as a path, what about completely wandering off of it?

Give me an example of what you mean. Or better yet, do it yourself and figure it out on the basis of your experience, and report back.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:52 / 07.08.06
I would argue that this isn't always the case... it would seem to me that sucess with well known systems of magic could be viewed as psychosymatic - as in, as it worked for so and so, it will work for me.

Can you pin down what you are talking about with specific examples, as its all seems a bit nebulous. What specific things are you suggesting can be made up? Without actual examples, its hard to really say whether I agree with you or not.

You can make up a bunch of superficial things and mess about with them to see what happens, certainly. We could make up a "new" divination system based around different denomination of coins right now, and see what results come from it. I daresay it would work alright, but is it really all that new? Is it not just a variation on the vast body of sortilege methods that the human race has developed over thousands of years, even if we've ostensibly just made it up on the spot? At that fundamental level, is there really anything new under the Sun? What "new things" are you planning to make up? Also, even if our success rate with this coin method is really high, does it then follow that things like Tarot and I Ching are obsolete and ready for the scrap heap?

What I think is fundamental to any long term practice is a bit of emotional involvement in what you are doing. The problem with sitting down one afternoon and producing a complete new magical system that you have entirely fabricated in one sitting - is that you've missed out the important bit. No magical journey has taken place to get you there. You haven't actually learned anything through the process of coming up with a "new system", you've just gone straight for the cherry and assumed that's all there is. What you've made up is meaningless, it's just like a scenario for a roleplaying game. It can be a starting point for something, but it is not an end product unless it has been lived.

The outward trappings of a magical system, the sort of things you could fabricate on a wet weekend if you had a good imagination, are not the point. You haven't lived these things, so you couldn't possibly know anything about their use or validity. If you were to start experimenting with such a fabricated system, I think I could pretty much guarantee that what you end up with after 6 months of working with it, would be radically different from the closed system you started off with.

You would find that a lot of what you came up with, and which sounded perfectly reasonable on paper, was in fact total bollocks when you try to put it into practice. You would find that some of what you came up with was hitting on a few fundamental processes of magic and giving you an avenue in. You would probably continue to experiment with these and that call would keep on rolling. What you would end up with is a personal system of magic that has evolved over time through immersion in a process. Which is quite literally all that a magician can do. You can't just "make it up", you have to live it. You have to do the work and let it take shape.

Your starting point for this could be any number of things. Aleister Crowley "made up" his entire system based on the magic that he lived, in the same way that Austin Osman Spare did. Crowley's starting point was western ceremonial magic, yoga, sex and drugs. Spare's starting point was his art. Both of these men were engaged in a process of uncovering the truth of their own individual magic. The core of what they are about. You do not uncover this in an afternoon. It's a life's work. "The Great Work" if you like.

I have a friend, great artist, who says that the reason he's so good with his hands, drawing, sculpture, whatever, is because of what he calls "confidence of line" (not sure if thats his phrase or he's ripped it off). We apply this to all aspects of our lives though - wanna talk to a girl; "confidence of line" . Wanna get served in a busy pub; "confidence of line" . Playing football on sunday; "confidence of line" Wanna summon a deity; "confidence of line".

That doesn't come out of nowhere though does it. Formative experiences give us confidence in something. You develop "confidence of line", it doesn't just appear one day fully formed. Which is all I'm really saying, you learn magic by doing it. Not by "making up a system", because your system doesn't mean anything if there is no truth behind it. It's the equivalent of someone who has never been able to draw a basic stick figure in their lives, suddenly saying to themselves "I have confidence of line" and expecting that to turn them into an accomplished artist. You have to do the work, and develop that confidence by trial and error.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
12:19 / 07.08.06
That doesn't come out of nowhere though does it. Formative experiences give us confidence in something. You develop "confidence of line", it doesn't just appear one day fully formed.

Not really, confidence of line is just something you have, or try to fake like you have.

Can you pin down what you are talking about with specific examples, as its all seems a bit nebulous.

Ok, feel free to point and laugh, but I'll tell you what I worked on over the weekend; Not really knowing anything about divination, except something I remember vaguely as a child, I thought I'd have a mess around, see if I could work something up that had some effects. I decided on friday night what I wanted to achieve with my working - I'm writing a sitcom with a friend, and have hit a bit of a slump, creativly and joke wise, so the aim was to trap something that I could ingest, I guess, something to power me up creativly, allow me to plow through some minor writers block. I can up with a symbol, just through doddles, a little free association stuff, unti it felt "right". This symbol represented the snare, the trap for whatever it could get. Now, the divination came in with just using what ever old cliche I could think of - the best one was the pendulum and string over a map. So I took the shoelaces out of my last pair of kicks, becuase they've been to a couple of contients, wandered the world a little, so they must have some residue on them, wrote down an ideal achievement on a piece of paper, and burned the two on some foil. The ashes were then rubbed into my palms and feet, and I had a wander around brighton until I found a place I thought might be a good place to put my snare. I drew the snare on the pavement on saturday morning, used chalk, then spray paint in the evening (didn't want it to get brushed away and let go whatever I caught). Last night, after the pub closed, I went down to the snare with my current script I'm struggling with and just bounced ideas around. It went pretty damn well. Writers block gone, jokes are flowing, I'm in a fantastic mood.

This probably ties in with what gypsy said, I stumbled on something that works, and I'll continue to plod around with this idea for a while, see if I need it again. But I'm pretty sure I made this up, I've not heard of this done before.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:32 / 07.08.06
But Math, dude--although your ritual was pretty spontaneous, you must see that it contains some solid universal elements? For example, the use of a drawn symbol to represent the thing itself: that's as old as painting, my friend. And your Kicks laces--the idea that they were potent because of where they'd been and what you'd done in them is also pretty prevalent. Otherwise, why not burn up any old pair of shoelaces? All the componants you've just described pre-existed your made-up ritual by a looong way. On some level I think you must have been aware of that. You have at least some contact with ritual (via Catholicism), and these kinds of concepts have been around long enough to get a good solid footing in popular culture.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
13:13 / 07.08.06
I get that Mordant, it contained some stuff I'd heard about through pop culture, and ideas that seemed like they make sense. There was no real ritual, only in the way that baking a cake is a ritual. But you are very right, I did these things because they tied in with what I thought about magic, or magical acts.

By the by, I won't be able to do this act again, I'll have to wait until my new trainers are worn and scraggly.
 
 
Quantum
13:27 / 07.08.06
Walk before running, learn to drive before stunt driving, learn to draw before innovating new artistic styles. Picasso could paint great weird perspective pictures because he was already an accomplished artist, I don't think you can leap straight to innovation without mastering the basic skills first. What happens is you reinvent the wheel and sooner or later find out your smashing new ideas are aeons old.
 
 
Quantum
13:30 / 07.08.06
BTW you can learn confidence of line and arguably have to, it's not genetic. Here's a good book that will teach it.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
18:41 / 07.08.06
What happens is you reinvent the wheel and sooner or later find out your smashing new ideas are aeons old.

In no way am I suggesting that any form of wheel reinvention is occuring anywhere near where I am. And if my smashing new ideas are aeons old, then more power to me, I've stumbled upon something without any effort.

Also, whats wrong with wanting to run before you can walk, as long as you don't fall over?

I jest, but in all seriousness, I find it interesting, this idea that anything new has already been done a thousand times, yadda etc. It reminds me of an argument I had at university about plagarism, and whether such and such a book was ripping off something else simply because it had a similar love story in it. I argued that you might as well say that the use of the word random or cheese or giant moo cow constitutes plagerism because it's probably been used somewhere to mean the same thing before. In terms of this, doesn't it become slightly situational? If I'm running, is it the situation that gives the act meaning (as in chasing a bus, doing a 100m race, legging it from the police), or is it the act itself that is important? Do you see what I mean?
 
 
EmberLeo
19:11 / 07.08.06
There was no real ritual, only in the way that baking a cake is a ritual.

Baking a cake is a ritual. It's just not usually a magical ritual. Of course it's arguable that the fact that baking works (chemistry) is just magic we've explained so thoroughly we forget it's pretty fabulous stuff. *Shrugs* Maybe that's just me.

Also, whats wrong with wanting to run before you can walk, as long as you don't fall over?

Well, on the one hand I regularly feel as though I'm running without having walked, and I seem to be doing okay. But then folks point out that I was walking for miles, and simply failed to call it that, and I look back and see they were right. I just didn't notice the momentum until I picked up the pace.

I would say the problem with actually running before walking is that it's incredibly rare not to fall over eventually, and the longer you take to stop running without knowing how to walk it off, the harder you fall - and it's not an exaggeration to say you could break.

Now, I don't think there's only one right way to do things, but I do think that any given way of doing things needs some sort of foundational support, or it'll just fall apart. I've spent the last 6 months watching a dear friend of mine break down as we try to retroactively install a foundation to the slipping building that is her life as a priestess. It's a long story, and I think she's an extreme example, but it's applicable.

The main use of teaching in this context is just that it helps you fill in gaps, the things you may need, but might have missed. It's all well and good that you might figure out the basics you need to build your personal works on without that help, but the odds that you'll miss something are awfully high, and the benefits of having some sort of foundation far outweigh the downsides of having to lay the bricks down.

I hope that wasn't too metaphorical to be useful...

--Ember--
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
19:29 / 07.08.06
Ok, so a pertinant question would be how do you go about building such foundations?
 
 
Quantum
19:40 / 07.08.06
Well you're definitely off to good start by practicing and actually doing stuff rather than just reading about it. There needs to be a balance though, treat it like learning anything- a bit of background reading, some research, asking people, learning from other people's mistakes.
What I meant about reinventing the wheel was duplicating work that's been done before. It might take six months of trial and error to devise a simple ritual which is readily available with a quick internet search. Similarly, you can make a cake from scratch by experimenting with various ingredients and cooking techniques but you end up with a lot of horrible cakes. Better to check out a few recipes, practice a bit, *then* try the five tier banana mudlslide souffle.
 
 
EmberLeo
20:34 / 07.08.06
Well, I know what I personally consider foundational skills, but I'm sure that varies. It depends on what, exactly, you're trying to do - working with magic and will is a somewhat different skill base than working with gods and spirits, though there's certainly a lot in common between them.

My suggestion is to explore the basics of a wide variety of different practices, to find what works for you, and what they have in common as necessary.

I find one way or another that there are some basic ideas behind stablizing work (I know grounding), being in the moment (centering), protection (shielding, warding. LBRP comes to mind as well), making things happen (via rituals, thought forms, whatever), and healing (I know several forms). But different cultures and practices have different ideas about what's basic. The important thing is to have a firm grasp of whatever it is you're building on, via practice, and an understanding of how it's supposed to work, so you know how to build on it.

--Ember--
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:50 / 08.08.06
I get that Mordant, it contained some stuff I'd heard about through pop culture, and ideas that seemed like they make sense. There was no real ritual, only in the way that baking a cake is a ritual. But you are very right, I did these things because they tied in with what I thought about magic, or magical acts.

Mathlete, I'd say what is important here is that you thought through a process and created something out of your commonsense knowledge - and I'd argue that such a process is inherently creative in itself. Many's the time when, out of the desire to do something "magical" I've thought through a process which - of itself - has led me to such a creative joy that the original impetus has gone - no longer important - in comparison with the other stuff that's come up. So it matters little, in the long run, whether you did something totally unique or 're-invented the wheel' (to use quantum's phrase) - and if you think about it, if there are no 'wheels' in your life - working it out for yourself can be pretty exciting. Magic doesn't always have to be new (or old for that matter) so long as its' new for you. Imagine what it felt like to see that wheel rolling along for the first time!

Years ago, when I was first grappling with magic, I used to take my ideas to an older magician to ask him whether or not "such-and-such an idea" would work. His advice, invariably was "Go and do it and come back and tell me what happened!"
 
 
illmatic
09:08 / 08.08.06
This was sort of my point above. I don't see the dichotomy between being taught and discovering things for yourself. Any good teacher will encourage this process.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:47 / 08.08.06
I would agree. I think what Mathlete is describing sounds really good, and I think the best advice is to just keep on doing stuff like that and not to really worry about it. The general rule for me is just "does it feel right?" Can I believe in it? Does it "click" with me on some level. Making up little rituals like that is how I learned and how I continue to learn. It's the only way to get to know anything. Just mess about with it and see what works for you. You will probably come up with stuff every now and again that sounds plausible, but when you put it into practice it doesn't quite hit the spot, you're not totally convinced by it. It doesn't work out how you thought it might. These failures are really important as that's where you start to develop your intuition about what is good, workable magic and what will probably fall flat. You can't really understand that without having learned it by trial and error.

I think you are doing everything right. The only caveat I have is that I don't really think the dichotomy you are drawing between "making it up" versus "learning by tuition" is particularly useful. Why would you close yourself off from a valuable experience? In real life, we do not learn exclusively by either of these methods. I don't think learning is ever so cut-and-dried. Are you not essentially "learning by tuition" in some regard by starting this thread and asking for people's input? Is that a bad thing?

I think you should just stop worrying about it and do the work. Let it emerge and take shape as it will. Just because you learn loads from improvised ritual and get really great results, doesn't mean you won't also be able to learn loads from messing about with Tarot or Western Magic or whatever. I don't think its very productive to close yourself off from experiences that might be useful, fun and informative. I might be off the mark, but it reads as if you are drawing this distinction in the spirit of rebellion: Asserting your own creative freedom over a perceived rigid structure of magic learning - that you may have been exposed to from perusing occult books.

But to be honest, I'm not really convinced that anyone has ever learned magic in the rigid, structured format that some written sources would have you believe goes on. I certainly haven't met anyone who has learned exclusively in this way. I don't believe it happens. I remember reading a quote from someone who was in Aleister Crowley's original A.'.A.'., and they said that the vision of the Order, as set out in Crowley's writings and taken at face value by most people who read it, didn't really ever exist like that outside of his imagination.

Magicians walk their own road. You cannot fit it into convenient boxes. The only way to understand anything about your own magic is to just do it, and see where it gets you. The process is what is important. The speculation that you might have about the journey and its terrain, before you set out, is not always going to be the same as what actually happens. Just get on about your business, and stop worrying about the virtues of this path or that. All we can do is walk down the paths that present themselves and follow the routes that our instinct leads us towards. Sometimes we might hit a dead end, other times we'll find ourselves on a fast track or in a slow lane. With experience we cultivate a kind of animal instinct that allows us to better navigate the whole strange territory, and it is this instinct which is the heart of magic and perhaps the most important trait of a competent magician.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:27 / 08.08.06
Great post Gypsy!

The only caveat I have is that I don't really think the dichotomy you are drawing between "making it up" versus "learning by tuition" is particularly useful.

Quite. And "learning by tuition" sounds oh so dry when you put it like that. When I did stuff with other magicians - even when I felt I was primarily learning from them - it wasn't really "tuition" in that sense - it was sharing stuff. Sharing insights, moments of wonder, the joys of a walk in the forest or a good night in the pub. Sharing worries, day-to-day troubles, small triumphs and the appreciation of company. Having someone you could gas on about magic to, and everything else besides.
 
 
EvskiG
13:32 / 08.08.06
I remember reading a quote from someone who was in Aleister Crowley's original A.'.A.'., and they said that the vision of the Order, as set out in Crowley's writings and taken at face value by most people who read it, didn't really ever exist like that outside of his imagination.

I always had the impression that Crowley's A.'.A.'. teachings often took the form of somewhat free-form correspondence with his students, as per Magick Without Tears. Even so, if you ever read Frater Achad's magical diary, "A Master of the Temple," it looks like he was hewing fairly close to the A.'.A.'. curriculum.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
16:21 / 08.08.06
I had an interesting experience today, one that I would like to share.

I set up the snare I discussed earlier around the four till areas at work. I had an idea of what I wanted to capture, mainly to power of multiple transactions of knowledge for money. I dunno why, but it seemed like a good idea to try and store this for later use (again, in what, I don't know). I view the snares like a look box, and like all good boxes I've got a key, a simple symbol that'll open them up when I need them to be open. So, after a day and a bit of multiple tranactions, I decided to unlock one of the snares, and I felt something real wierd. A major head rush, a slight euphoria, nothing I've really experienced outside of drug taking. The rush burned out after a couple of seconds, and now I'm real tired.

Now, is it important that I know what I've trapped in this situation, and what I'm trying to take in, something that I'd presumably learn from books and coversing with other magic users, or is this knowledge unnessacary to the working of the thing?
 
 
EmberLeo
17:39 / 08.08.06
Now, is it important that I know what I've trapped in this situation, and what I'm trying to take in, something that I'd presumably learn from books and coversing with other magic users, or is this knowledge unnessacary to the working of the thing?

The way I understand things, it's risky to not have at least a filter on the kind of thing you want to trap and take in. But you don't have to know the specific - if you knew the specific, in this case, why would you need the trap?

I also wouldn't expect you to be immediately concious of what, exactly, you just got. For me that kind of thing plays out over time. Dreams, confirmations, divination, input from others, etc. "Hey Ember, why do you have a green flower hovering in front of your belly button today?" "Is that what it looks like? Huh... okay..."

--Ember--
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
22:19 / 08.08.06
It was the weirdness of the rush I recieved. I can explain the feeling, but not the source of the feeling - even the other things I've done, the reaction has been more mood based, or more mechanical, like losing the writers block or being in a good mood. This was more of a rush, much more instant. I've not tried to use the "whatever", but the rush was really interesting, and makes me want to experiment more with it.
 
 
EmberLeo
22:24 / 08.08.06
Well, that's about how a sudden influx of lots of energy feels to me...

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
01:49 / 09.08.06
Not to rain on your parade but if I came across a 'snare' I'd aim to break it or reverse it. Have you tried a less manipulative way of framing the same techniques?
 
 
Rigettle
09:11 / 09.08.06
Hi may I join in? This is a very interesting thread.

Math's rush: I'd say when is the medium not the message? Or... can you separate the feeling that you got from whatever it was you were actually trying to catch? Maybe the rush is just something that your [body] does when it encounters certain kinds of [magical activity.] Wait a couple of days & let the dust settle before you jump to any conclusions. Maybe some kind of new [configuration] will pop out from somewhere.

I wouldn't have used the trap approach myself having scared myself shitless with such quests for power a long time ago. I'd have said: I want new insight & some movement in this area & then done quite a general working, maybe invoking my favourite deity.

As for how we learn about these things, looking at:

reinventing the wheel (Blake: "I must make my own system or be enslaved by another man's") which can be so much fun...

informally learning through work shared with both more & less( !yes!) experienced practitioners...

formal teacher student relationships...

they all have their advantages & it's worth trying them all out at some stage, or at least trying not to be prejudiced against any of them.

I was never one for gurus, but when I finally met someone who was a true adept... wow! he had nothing to prove. He was his own demonstration. It was all very simple & instead of the teaching loads of techniques (which he sometimes does) the most important point was his vast intention & the way that his presence communicated that.

Emaho!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:25 / 09.08.06
Blake: "I must make my own system or be enslaved by another man's"

Now there's a little bugbear of mine, and here's a perfect place to look at it more closely. That Blake quote is reeled out time-and-time again as a special dispensation from on-high to create your own system of magic off the top of your head. So people sit down with a pen and paper and dream up "Rupert Wishbone, the God of Apricot Jam" or "Lenny Orthodox, the Saint of Rocksteady", they fashion a divinatory system based around the number of times the word "Stunner" appears on page 3 of the tabloids in a given month, or maybe feed their Cat some out-of-date tuna and try to see the future in its sick. This - to me - is a really superficial reading of what I think Blake might have been getting at.

I can't think of a magician of any consequence who has worked exclusively within the parameters of another magician's system. I think the task of any magician is to create their own system, their own personal understanding of the universe based upon their first hand experiences of magic, or else be enslaved by the second-hand accounts of others. You can't help it. You must create your own system or be enslaved by another's.

Now I don't think that this is necessarily the same thing as sitting down in a comfy chair and pulling a fantasy world of untested entities and untried techniques out of your arse. I think it's more a process of uncovering your own "system" through experiential work, trying to find the "truth" of your own personal magic, the heart of what you are about. I think its something that you uncover over the entire course of your life, over the entirety of your magical career, like chipping away at a sculpture and gradually revealing its true shape over time. It's not a fun little diversion, but a practical fact of the business of magic itself.

My problem with the whole approach of coming up with a fully worked out pantheon of spirits in the manner that you might design the cast of a comic book or create a scenario for a role playing game is that that is not "your system" in what I would call the Blakeian sense. All it is, is a creative game, a starting point that might lead you somewhere, but not the destination. You don't uncover and understand your magic by dreaming up its outward trappings in an armchair. You have to take the journey, and the sum total of where it gets you is "your system". William Blake's "system" was not a single closed creative work invented one spring morning, but something that was relentlessly explored and developed in word and image throughout the course of his life's work.

I think you can see this process of refinement of understanding, and constant elaboration on the various tropes of interest, in the work of anyone who has practiced magic for a significant period of time. Old interests that you thought you had put aside come back and reoccur in new forms and new interpretations. You begin to see the entirety of your career as one coherent inquiry, a single narrative drive that might weave through different stages but has a certain consistency to its nature. Your nature. Your system. Your magic. You literally can't work anybody else's and nobody can work yours. You cannot follow another's system to the letter, all you can do is grasp something from how another has gone about uncovering their own magic, and use that as an example of how you might go about uncovering yours.

I don't think the outward symbols, techniques, trappings and cultural setting are really what constitutes the individuality of a Magician's own system. For instance, I work with the Lwa and Orisha. I can think of two people in my immediate circle of friends who work with the same deities. There are obviously points of similarity here and there, but the whole process of interaction, the way we go about doing things, the place where each of us is coming from, is fundamentally different. I actually have a teacher in this stuff - in a very informal sense - but the way he does things, his magic, is totally different from my own. It's a whole different thing. Our individual working methods have developed out of our own unique individual work. The spirits we work with have imparted different aspects of their mysteries to us, things that are most relevant to our separate individual nature. Ostensibly similar nuts and bolts produce something unfathomably different in practice when interpreted through the magician's own personal creative vision. Our magic, if it is truly alive, cannot fail to express something fundamental about us and our nature.

Even traditions of magic that appear on the surface to be far more rigid and less welcoming of experimental divergence, such as the scripted forms of ceremonial magical procedures like the LBRP, are subject to the same phenomenon. I doubt there are two people in the world who interact with the form of the LBRP in exactly the same way. MAR's account of what he gets from it in the meditation thread sounds utterly unlike my own response to it. But my own responses to that ritual seem to change on a weekly basis and they always have done. It's never static. I'm always recording new insights and new understandings that I've gleaned from its apparently rigid structure in my journal. A parallel might be to watch a room of senior martial artists performing the same form, and observing how each of them interpret the motions slightly differently, how their different body sizes/shapes express the same intended movement. To really understand a martial arts form, you have to make it your own, find your own expression of it, bring it to life in your own way. I think magic works in much the same way.
 
 
Ticker
13:58 / 09.08.06
The spirits we work with have imparted different aspects of their mysteries to us, things that are most relevant to our separate individual nature.

This always fascinates me especially when a lot of folks have radically different experiences of the same Source. It is also a place where having a community really helps as relationships shift and change. The teacher student pairing probably isn't as crucial here as just various folks exchanging experiences and comparing notes.

I was asked recently to take on a teacher role regarding a spiritual practice and I chose to shift it to a peer level consult structure. My big concern was I didn't want my POV to over shadow someone else's first experiences with what really is meant to be a personal relationship. The most beneficial assistence I could offer was in positioning the information from the perspective of 'hey this is what I've found' which implies a permission for the other person to feel comfortable if they have radically different interactions.

My most helpful teachers are those who listen to me outline where my work is currently focused and make suggestions on other options I might not have been aware of. They are sourcing their experience but not valuing it as somehow better or more true than mine.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:17 / 09.08.06
Certainly with deity work, I tend to think that all a teacher can really do is point you in the direction of the door, maybe tell you about a special way to knock that will increase the likelihood of an answer, tell you a couple of stories about visits that they made themselves in the past, and maybe give a few hints of something you could bring along with you to make a good impression. Aside from that, what actually happens is totally between the practitioner and the deity and can't be predicted or prejudged. All a teacher can do is help you get to a point where the magic takes over and starts working you, and then maybe provide a few useful hints and nods further down the line if you get out of your depth with it and need some direction or a couple of pointers here and there.
 
 
Ticker
14:37 / 09.08.06
Though as I read your post Gypsy, I thought about the need for those with enough experience to guide us when dealing with trickster voices. There are some manifestations that are not always great to get involved with, some company that might come calling of a troublesome or deceitful nature and having the insight of a trained mentor is a great aid. (...and some of us need to work with these Beings)

There is that grey area of personal opinion versus collective wisdom, methinks.
 
 
Rigettle
15:15 / 09.08.06
Great post Gypsy, I agree completely.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
22:49 / 14.08.06
I tried some god work tonight - mainly draging Baccus down into my life using the template of Jesse "The Devil" Hughes, the lead singer of the Eagles of Death Metal. Some success - wierd images flashing through my mind during the introduction ritual, sacrificing muchos beer for the guy (seems like a waste to just tip it away...), becoming the life and soul of a party. Some problems - trying to trick my sceptical mind into just accepting what I told it too. Can anyone recommend any good books on the subject (only read the very brief pop magick)?
 
  

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