BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Internet Power Dynamics

 
 
*
23:42 / 02.08.06
Due to some discussion in Policy, I think we need this thread. In it, I would like to discuss the following:

1) The power dynamics and demography of internet discussion boards as a whole
2) What effects these have
3) The power dynamics and demography of Barbelith in specific, with reference wherever possible to examples
4) What effects these have on Barbelith as a whole and as individuals

If the thread proceeds into discussion of such ideas as whether or not this is a problem, and if and how it should be changed, we'll move into Policy, but for now we're in Head Shop because I want to critically address a number of building blocks of identity politics and anti-oppression theory.

So, to start out with, what am I not talking about?
I'm not discussing: Overt sexism or misogyny, racism, homophobia, or transphobia, or other behavior that is based in hatred or conscious prejudice of another group. I'm not discussing abusive behavior against individuals or groups. I'm not discussing explicit exclusions of groups of people by rules that prohibit them from participating (I may get into a discussion of identity-based safe space later, but that's a separate issue).

It is a basic assumption of this thread that no group of people should have less opportunity and agency in the world than any other based solely on their race, sex, gender, sexual preference or consensual practice, stage of adulthood, nationality, class, economic privilege, religion or irreligion, ethnicity, or ability. If an overwhelming number of people want to contest this basic assumption, we'll go to another thread to do it.

Definition of terms. All of the following will be debatable. I am happy to hear how they may not work for you.
Power— As it relates to message boards, power means to me the practical ability to guide, frame, and participate in discussion and decision-making in the virtual space. Power comes in several guises: Explicit authority (as in the case of moderators, board owners, and others with official roles), implicit authority (as when a particular board member is recognized unofficially as an authoritative voice on one or more topics), and voice (to what degree board members make themselves heard). Power is not in and of itself a bad thing, nor is authority or hierarchy, so far as I can tell— if power is accessible to people without regard to those identity things I mentioned before.
Identity— One's lived roles and experiences, one's community, and the circumstances into which one was born all shape one's identity, which is then commonly expressed as a series of labels by which others can make certain assumptions about one's experiences, roles, community, and life history. Identity has an effect on how much power one has access to in the world at large.
Privilege— When one's identity affords one access to certain kinds of power that is, relative to the access of others outside of that identity group, unobstructed, one is said to have privilege in this regard. It is possible to have privilege with respect to one aspect of identity and be disempowered in another. Privilege is not in itself a monolith, and it is not in itself a bad thing. It is often pointed out because a clearer view of privilege allows us a clearer view of how others are disadvantaged, and if we agree that disadvantage on the grounds of identity is a generally undesirable, it's important to see that so we can effect change.

Let's spend whatever time we need discussing these foundational topics before we move on. I realize I've taken on a very authoritative air in this thread so far. I hope you won't take that to mean I resist hearing other voices. I just want to make sure I'm speaking with as much clarity and precision as I can muster, because these issues are very abstract and in the past I have been bad at articulating them.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
03:01 / 03.08.06
I haven't been following thread in the Policy of late, so maybe, id, you could briefly contextualise why there's a need for the thread, and what happened to make you think of it?
 
 
*
03:20 / 03.08.06
Here I am responding to something that happened in the Woman-Friendly Barbelith thread (and being a bit of an ass about it). I assumed that many people were pretty much on the same page about why there was a Woman-Friendly Barbelith thread at all.

Those assumptions led me to say, here, that "I find it pretty self-evident that white people and men have more power on this board than non-white people and non-men, and so it would be wrong to explicitly exclude non-white people and non-men from a particular thread."

Lurid called me on it, saying "This is perhaps tangential, but something I've been meaning to talk about for some time, in that I don't find it that self-evident. For a start, there are lots of way of understanding power realtionships that overlap, contradict and otherwise confuse when they aren't being ignored. So my first thought is that the (as it seems to me, often curiously generalising) categorisation and the rigidity, both in membership and framing, that entails could do with being questioned. Second, I don't think it is necessary that a power dynamic that one observes generally is replicated exactly in every environment in every way...so, no, these things aren't self evident." And here we are.
 
 
sleazenation
09:15 / 03.08.06
First of all, before we start, I want to empasize that I'm not trying to attack you here Id entity, but my intial response to this topic comes very much from how it has been framed (by you).

Just looking at the abstract for a second

Discussion relating to power dynamics on message boards, and in the world at large. Warning: Identity politics, feminism, egalitarianism, queer theory, anti-racism, basic anti-oppression.

We can see that the author privilidges some ideas above others. This can been seen in both the order of things and by the decision of what to consciously name over and above the catch-all grouping of 'basic anti-oppression'.

I mention this because to me economic disadvantage (which is mentioned near the bottom of a long list in the fifth paragraph of the opening post) seems to be the most basic and implacable method that would prevent people from participating in a debate on a website on the internet. If you don't have the access to the technology, and access to it at home then you are at a primary disadvantage before we even get to modes of discourse and how many of them contain within their structure components that privilidge some groups over others.

My point is not that this thread is poorly structured, nor that the emphasis that I'd place on economic disadvantage as being more important than other factors is necessarily unassailable in its primacy, but that all of us are apt to frame debates with structures that privilidge some ideas and groups to the detriment of others.

I'd argue that the best we can hope to do is to identify and critique the slants, biases and the lazy thinking that they often lead to in an ongoing basis...
 
 
Saturn's nod
10:10 / 03.08.06
Economic disadvantage is barely separable from the structures of oppression that id's naming: I beleive it to be the case that poverty disproportionately affects women and children amongst white people, and people of colour disproportionately amongst the world's populations.

Hence I separate the category kinds: economic disadvantage is one particular aspect of the oppression that subordinate class, gender and race groups suffer within the nested hierarchies in systems of oppression.

Power in id's sense - ability to guide, frame, and participate in discussion - is undoubtedly unequally distributed partly due to economic disadvantage, but don't you think that analysis of the power dynamic id's proposing digs further into putative causation mechanisms which might underlie that uneven access to economic resources and other powers?
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:39 / 03.08.06
Very quickly, since I don't have much time atm...

A comment on your basic framing, Id. When you say,

It is a basic assumption of this thread that no group of people should have less opportunity and agency in the world than any other based solely on their...economic privilege...or ability.

I'm wondering what you are saying. (I realise that I have edited a good deal here, and I'm challenging something you don't really want challenging, but bear with me). Because the statement that no one should be afforded greater oppurtunity because of wealth or ability more or less asserts that there should be little or no disparity in wealth, and that ability should not be rewarded (though, to be fair, the second follows from the first). I'm not objecting to this, per se, but it seems a rather different thing to be asserting than all the things I edited out, unless I'm misunderstanding you. Certainly, we can probably agree that the vast disparities of wealth that exist in the world are uncontroversially unjust, but the disparity of wealth between a banker and a factory worker? One clearly has a greater set of oppurtunities than the other. What about between a librarian and someone unemployed? Same deal, I think.

I suspect you don't want to talk about economics, so I thought I'd ask for clarification, especially since it may pivot on the word "privilege", although part of what I'm doing is probably trying to clarify and perhaps contest what privilege is.

I should say something reiterating one of my points in the thread about framing, and the fact that the careful list you propose is, inevitably, incomplete, but I'm not sure I have time to clarify for myself what I want to say beyond a vague discomfort.

I'd also like to make it more concrete and relate it to actual message boards...but I'm happy to get there slowly.

Power in id's sense - ability to guide, frame, and participate in discussion - is undoubtedly unequally distributed partly due to economic disadvantage, but don't you think that analysis of the power dynamic id's proposing digs further into putative causation mechanisms which might underlie that uneven access to economic resources and other powers? - Sat

I'm not sure, to be honest. Well...."digs further" is pretty circumspect and hard to disagree with, of course, but sleaze is questioning relative importance. I think power dynamics certainly are the most important thing in some cases, but in other cases I think one can argue that the economics really sustains inequality and is a "cause" though not an ultimate explanation.
 
 
*
17:00 / 03.08.06
I hope I'm being totally up-front about the fact that I am privileging certain ideas and paradigms. Challenging the entire basis of anti-oppression thinking is (probably, depending on one's reasoning) valid, but I think it's outside the scope of this thread.

You have it right, Lurid, that what I was thinking when I said "economic privilege" was different from just "having more wealth." Again, privilege has to do with access and identity, and economic privilege, to me, means having greater access to economic resources on the grounds of some aspect of one's identity. That could be because one is white (making it tied to racial privilege), or because one's surname is Kennedy or Bush. By ability I specifically mean lack of physical, mental, or emotional disability. Within the category of able-bodied people, there are some who can run marathons and some who barely get out of bed in the morning, and I suspect something similar can be said about people who are not mentally disabled. But because someone has a mental health issue does not mean that they should be homeless or have less access to basic needs. They also shouldn't have additional obstacles to expressing themselves on message boards than those posed by their health condition itself, I think. In other words, while someone with a mental health concern that makes it more difficult for them to express themselves clearly will necessarily have more trouble interacting here and there's not much we can do about that, they should not have to deal with the additional burden of being mocked for it or having to see their diagnosis used elsewhere as a synonym for "stupid," "wrong," or "bad"— a point Ganesh has made repeatedly.

I think it's great to look at these factors and realize that they are complexly interconnected, and some of them are dependent on others. Economic privilege, at least in the US, is affected very strongly by racial privilege. People from a high socioeconomic background, as well as white people, have much greater access to medical services, especially in the realm of treatment for chronic issues like disability. We should beware of simplifying these interactions into "I'm more disempowered than you!" hierarchies of oppression, and strive to honor them in their complexity. But let us also not get so invested in mapping their complexities that we lose sight of the larger argument, which in my case is that there are subtle as well as overt effects of power and privilege on message boards, and that these effects pose a problem for people I would like to see more equally included.
 
 
Lurid Archive
19:30 / 03.08.06
Challenging the entire basis of anti-oppression thinking is (probably, depending on one's reasoning) valid, but I think it's outside the scope of this thread. - Id

Let me know if I'm doing that, and I'll bow out, though not without a degree of frustration.

You have it right, Lurid, that what I was thinking when I said "economic privilege" was different from just "having more wealth." Again, privilege has to do with access and identity, and economic privilege, to me, means having greater access to economic resources on the grounds of some aspect of one's identity.

I find this almost incomprehensible, to be honest. That is, the fact that people are excluded from oppurtunities in arbitrary ways isn't what we are talking about, nor what you mean when you mention privilege, or at least it isn't what we are discussing unless it ties in with "identity" (an identity, presumably, that cannot *solely* be specified in terms in economic terms).

Fair enough, in a way, and since you want to talk about "identity", the wider question of how people are disenfranchised isn't really relevant....but I can't help but feel that this is a deeply reactionary move. It is familiar, to me at least, as a discourse that economically privileged liberals like to make in order to defend the status quo. (I hear it often amongst academics.) Once one can assure oneself that discrimination on the basis of identity is being fought, one can rest easy and largely deny the harsh inequalities of capitalist systems; conversely, critiques of health systems based on identity rather than economics - arguing that people are denied access to health care more because of racism than because of poverty, say - fits in rather well with laissez faire economics, and its attendant problems. I'm not saying that economics beats identity, in a bare knuckled fight where our only option is a strict dichotomy....but leaving out economics from the discussion of privilege seems as arbitrary as would ommitting the role of sexism, for instance.

I'd add, that people who are economically disadvantaged don't tend (in my experience) to construct critiques of privilege based on identity nearly as much as economics. Which is just a bit of anecdote, of course, but which informs my position in this to a large extent.
 
 
redtara
22:54 / 03.08.06
I'd add, that people who are economically disadvantaged don't tend (in my experience) to construct critiques of privilege based on identity nearly as much as economics. Which is just a bit of anecdote, of course, but which informs my position in this to a large extent.

Sorry Lurid, while you might like this to be true, in reality the complexity of the causes of exclusion/oppression are least lost on those experiencing them. Moaning about being skint does not mean that you don't grasp the role your race/gender/ability/class etc. has on the situation.

I think Id is being really clear about the inter-relatedness of all these factors in creating exclusion, just that in the context of what was going on in the WFBCA thread and in a discussion of power on Barbelith, economics isn't so relevant.
 
 
Lurid Archive
00:26 / 04.08.06
Sorry Lurid, while you might like this to be true, in reality the complexity of the causes of exclusion/oppression are least lost on those experiencing them. - redtara

Let me reiterate that I don't want to force a dichotomy here, and that issues of identity are important. Having said that (and passing over the attempt to extricate things like class from economics) lets just agree that my experiences...(in the passage you quote, red, I was trying to be clear that I was speaking anecdotally)...my experiences may well differ from yours. It happens.
 
 
*
00:28 / 04.08.06
I'm sorry, Lurid, but I think I'm not making myself clearly understood. I do not want to minimize the role of economic disenfranchisement. Like every other kind of disenfranchisement, it powerfully affects many people's lives, and is powerfully affected by other kinds of disenfranchisement. People who have access to this board are by and large middle to upper middle class at least in terms of income and material resources— that is, we usually have computers and access to the internet at home. This does have a real impact on whose voices get to be heard on Barbelith, and that's why I included it in my litany. But because its effects are most immediately obvious to you does not mean it's the only thing worth considering in terms of power dynamics on the board.

I fail to see how the argument that (for example) racial prejudice contributes to the economic disempowerment of many people upholds the status quo. Continuing the argument in the direction of "...and therefore we need do nothing," would, I agree, be a bad thing. But the fight against oppression must necessarily take place on many fronts and many levels. I was not asserting that racism has greater affect than capitalism. Honestly, I don't know about that. I am willing to bet that in some people's lives racism is the bigger oppressor and for others capitalism is. I am not well enough versed in economic theory to address the problems of capitalism in this thread. I don't see why we cannot both acknowledge that economic oppression is a problem AND talk about how the power dynamics of those of us who are here on the boards comes across in our language and affects those of us who are marginalized here.
 
 
Lurid Archive
01:16 / 04.08.06
But because its effects are most immediately obvious to you does not mean it's the only thing worth considering in terms of power dynamics on the board. - id

Agreed. It isn't the only thing worth considering. I've said so a couple of times now. I was largely responding to your,

"economic privilege, to me, means having greater access to economic resources on the grounds of some aspect of one's identity."

which *defines* economic privilege in terms of identity. So I'm not asking you to be exclusionary, but rather the opposite.

I don't see why we cannot both acknowledge that economic oppression is a problem AND talk about how the power dynamics of those of us who are here on the boards comes across in our language and affects those of us who are marginalized here.

Sure. Maybe I'm not getting you here, but I'm not quite seeing the big separation between power dynamics on the one hand and economic oppression on the other. You seemed to me to be saying one is ontopic and the other not. I'm happy to talk about power dynamics generally, as long as we don't rule out certain kinds of power dynamics at the outset, due to the fact that they don't tally with notions of identity well. It may be that economic privilege is irrelevant to the kinds of power dynamics relevant here. I'm not sure why we should have to decide that at the start, though.
 
 
*
02:29 / 04.08.06
I don't think we have to exclude it, and I wasn't trying to exclude all talk about economic oppression. I aim to eventually get at what is happening on the board. If we start talking in this thread about why capitalism hurts people in the world at large, which is a very valuable topic, I fear we may never get to that point. I'm not trying to silence you. I don't deny that economic oppression is an important part of whose voices get heard on the internet. But I have been asked to discuss why, in my experience, certain ways of talking on message boards, and on Barbelith in particular, can make certain groups of people feel excluded, and even further power imbalances, along the lines of identity. I'm trying to get to that point here eventually. If you would like to talk about economic oppression in a way that furthers that, please do. I leave it up to you to decide what aspects of economic oppression are important to touch upon in this discussion; as I tried to set out earlier, I'm just not well enough versed in them to talk about them myself.

I think I see the problem. You'll notice this time I managed to avoid the royal 'we' in the statement of what I am not making reference to in starting this thread; you should feel free to raise concerns you believe to be related. In addition, the "basic assumption" is a bare-minimum starting point. I think above and beyond that some of us can agree that capitalism hurts people and creates unhealthy power dynamics, but I don't think agreement with that tenet is strictly necessary to follow my argument about how language and power can interact to reinforce harmful power dynamics on message boards. That's why I didn't set that forth more explicitly.

Does that help make my intentions more clear?
 
 
Lurid Archive
02:45 / 04.08.06
Sure, man. I don't want to derail the discussion completely...honest. Why don't you go ahead, and I'll try to not misunderstand you at every turn.
 
 
*
03:32 / 04.08.06
Sure, and I'll try to be more clear. Thanks for bringing me up, Lurid. When I'm not making sense, it helps a lot for people to point that out.

Now give me a little while to get my head together and I'll see if I can say anything worthwhile.
 
 
werwolf
07:16 / 04.08.06
[it's 09:33 in the morning and i have not slept nearly enough, so i can't get my head around all the things that have been brought up in this thread so far, but i strongly feel the urge to contribute here, so i will. forgive me for perhaps being a bit daft - call me out on it and i will try to elaborate when i can.]

is it correct to assume that what is supposed to being discussed here is which power dynamics exist within this forum, how they can be explained and how they are affecting this forum? if so, then i would like to start with proposing that real life power dynamics do not necessarily influence such structures within this virtual space that we call barbelith.

before i further explain what i mean, let me just make clear why i chose to use the phrase "real life". i am NOT suggesting that everybody in here is blind to everyday life and is living a substitute life in here. quite on the contrary. but a.) this space does not, no, CANNOT emulate real life and b.) nobody (and i really mean nobody) brings 100% of the identity they live outside into this thread. it's in the subtle things - can you interrupt someone here? sure, you can ignore what someone has posted, but you can't interrupt or change what has been posted (well, mods can...) which takes away a lot of manipulation tools that we use (whether consciously or not) in real life. or take me for instance: i wouldn't bother to discuss things like this or other topics of interest in real life most of the time, because i'm biased in thinking that i will not be listened to or that most people i meat in real life will not be able to maintain a discussion without decay into accusations and name-calling. and i think this is of utmost importance when discussing power and identity within the virtual space of the internet, because we simply ARE NOT the ones we are in real life in here (even if many try to stay as true as possible to their real life identity).

so, yeah, we can argue that not everyone has the same kind of access to barbelith as we'd wish, but that can't be helped unless someone gets up and does something about it out (grand scale) in this regard - in real life. let me get extreme here: we will not read the opinions of a vietnamese rice farmer on matters of economics and globalisation in here and we will surely not read what a tutsi woman thinks about the congo war.

so let's leave real life aside for a while and concentrate on barbelith life. assuming that

1.) your real life identity cannot and will not be controlled on barbelith,

2.) you will not be outright censored on barbelith and

3.) you are welcome here as long as you do not antagonize others with full intent and repeatedly even after being warned,

leads me to believe that we can assume any identity on barbelith that we are able to. which means that we should not so much be looking at which demographic barbelith users come from in real life, but more like which demographic they BEHAVE in here! might be a very fine distinction, but i think a crucial one.

and now, after having made little sense, let me continue in making even less sense.

i propose that the only harmful power dynamics in any forum are those that exclude by way of taking away the ability to comment and give one's opinion. even the worst racism, sexism or any other -ism can't be as bad as the -ism that cannot be confronted.

ok. i realize (after having typed all of this and re-read it) that there are some gaps, but i will nevertheless leave the original text.
 
 
Saturn's nod
09:10 / 13.08.06
real life power dynamics do not necessarily influence such structures within this virtual space that we call barbelith

I disagree: I think the realities of our lives shape us as thinkers and as writers. Although I know some people really revel in the 'fictionsuit' thing, I'm more with de Beauvoir: "It is in the knowledge of the genuine conditions of our lives that we must draw our strength to live and our reasons for living."

I don't take for granted my right to literacy and the leisure to discuss ideas. For me, it's part of the work of continuous revolution to overturn the power structures that systematically exclude some kinds of voices. Actions to challenge racism and other forms of supremacy are the necessary outflow in my practice of the decolonising political process I'm engaged with. The political engagement is an essential building block in the mental structures I have built in order to have a voice in the world, to not just accept my role as a object of others but to insist on my own subjectivity and my right to be heard.

Here's some bell hooks that I find very relevant, in which she discusses the concrete realities of peoples' lives and how revolutionary ideas of critical thinking affect them, in relation to Paulo Freire's work such as 'Pedagogy of the oppressed':

"Because the colonising forces are so powerful in this white supremacist capitalist patriarchy, it seems that black people are always having to renew a commitment to a decolonising political process that should be fundamental to our lives and is not. And so Freire's work, in its global understanding of liberation struggles, always emphasizes that this is the important initial stage of transformation - that historical moment when one begins to think critically about the self and identity in relation to one's political circumstance. Again, this is one of the concepts in Freire's work - and in my own work - that is frequently misunderstood by readers in the United States. Many times people will say to me that I seem to be suggesting that it is enough for individuals to change how they think. And you see, even their use of the enough tells us something about the attitude they bring to this question. It has a patronizing sound, one that does not convey any heartfelt understanding of how a change in attitude (though not a completion of any transformative process) can be significant for colonized/oppressed people. Again and again Freire has had to remind readers that he never spoke of conscientization as an end in itself, but always as it is joined by meaningful praxis. In many different ways Freire articulates this. I like when he talks about the necessity of verifying in praxis what we know in consciousness:

'That means, and let us emphasize it, that human beings do not get beyond the concrete situation, the condition in which they find themselves, only by their conscisousness or their intentions - however good those intentions may be. The possibilities that I had for transcending the narrow limits of a five-by-two-foot cell in which I was locked after the April 1964 coup d'etat were not sufficient to change my condition as a prisoner. I was always in the cell, deprived of freedom, even if I could imagine the outside world. But on the other hand, the praxis is not blind action, deprived of intention or finality. It is action and reflection. Men and women are human beings because they are historically constituted as beings of praxis, and in the process they have become as capable of transforming the world - of giving it meaning.'

I think that so many progressive political movements fail to have lasting impact in the United States precisely because there is not enough understanding of praxis."

Another thing I get from your post Werwolf, is that potentially this can be a liberatory space, on Barbelith, where people are able to find voice that they have been denied elsewhere? I can see that, but I think that's not going to happen unless we are explicit about the revolutionary political process that involves. In order to come to voice, those who have been silenced have to come to terms with the pain they have been inflicted with. In order to come to voice, those who have been told their opinions are of no importance must find a sense of safety and confidence, and we can all do things which either poke vulnerable people in the eye or acknowlegde the difficulty of the enterprise of coming to voice and laud each others' efforts.

The way I see it, there isn't a level playing field or anything like one. I am interested in doing anything which recruits people into a conscious political process whereby they are able to realise the subjective conditions which have created the self they inhabit, and are able to fully engage with the abundant creative life which we all deserve. Without a conscious political process challenging the givens, how can the inequities of the systems of dominance fail to reproduce themselves? I guess I get from Marx that ideological systems continually reproduce themselves through our actions: if we are not consciously acting to dismantle unjust power systems we will be acting as we have been trained since infancy, to prop up the oppressive cultural systems.
 
 
whistler
10:08 / 13.08.06
Werewolf: is it correct to assume that what is supposed to being discussed here is which power dynamics exist within this forum, how they can be explained and how they are affecting this forum? if so, then i would like to start with proposing that real life power dynamics do not necessarily influence such structures within this virtual space that we call barbelith.

Werewolf, I know you touched on this yourself, but I would avoid making a distinction between 'Barbe-space-in here' and 'society'n'culture-out-there'. Instead I'd argue that power dynamics relating to identity are always bound up in culture. Rather than culture coming from a particular setting, I think we bring it with us wherever we go.

So while I would agree that power works differently online - as you say, interrupting is more difficult here - I would clarify that power works differently on message boards, rather than not working. Whether or not she was in fact ignored, a recent example might be this post by Olulabelle about her experience that her challenge of a mysogynistic comment was not being acknowledged or supported by other, m-i posters participating in that thread.

Werewolf: we can assume any identity on barbelith that we are able to. which means that we should not so much be looking at which demographic barbelith users come from in real life, but more like which demographic they BEHAVE in here!

Certainly, it's difficult to see how I would ever really know the 'gender' or 'ethnicised' identity or economic position of any other person posting here. But that isn't to say that I would necessarily know more about a person's identity if that person was somehow physically embodied here. Say, if we were talking in person, in a room.

Also, can you see how I might never "bring 100% of the identity I live outside" into any situation? For example, Down The Pub Whistler and Job Interview Whistler are, I can assure you, very different entities again from Barbelith Whistler.

About the idea of being able to choose an identity, if I might get all anecdotal on your ass for a second, it was fascinating, having purposely chosen a 'gender-neutral' seeming login name for this place, to find that it was very difficult to enact 'gender-neutrality' here when the rest of the time, 'woman' is an important, not to say rather groovy part of my interface with the rest of the world. So difficult, in fact, that in my first post I slipped up and mentioned knitting. Oopsy. (Until I read that back, I thought I had achieved gender-neutrality, astonishingly...)

Point being, I bring with me a particular set of experiences, including those of gendered identity, that are so powerful that I can't duck under them for a second, to look at the world from a perspective, for example, of male identification*.

I think I'll leave this here.

*If I were a transgendered person, or a non-transgendered m-i person, I reckon that my experiences would most probably be different again.
 
 
whistler
11:33 / 13.08.06
Heh. Cross-post.
 
 
Ticker
19:28 / 13.08.06
SN:if we are not consciously acting to dismantle unjust power systems we will be acting as we have been trained since infancy, to prop up the oppressive cultural systems.


This is the reason it is also very important for us to question why someone uses certain language in a post online. We have the responsibilty to be aware of how we are taking information in (our filters), we have the responsibility to the person posting to reflecting how they are manifesting to us (shared filters), and a responsibilty to the collective community to witness and learn.
 
 
werwolf
12:54 / 14.08.06
@ Saturn's nod + whistler: very good points. and i see now that i really should have explained a little more in detail what i meant.

i absolutely agree: our 'real life' shapes us and fills us with knowledge, experience, opinions and so on and so forth. so, yes, we are shaped as thinkers and writers.
but in regards to this forum i would interpret it in the way that our 'real lives' dictate the way we present content on barbelith. it does not however shape the structure we are obliged to follow here, that aren't topical. i am talking about technical issues and the functionality of this forum. while we are interacting within the structures of this virtual space we have to acknowledge that certain schemata that have been important and formative in our physical 'real life', they become redundant in here. again, i am talking about functionalities.
for instance: any one singular post has (in theory) as much weight as any other post. in 'real life' you have to get through a maze of social, economical and cultural hedges and mazes (even if you are not aware of it) to make your voice being heard - and even then it is not granted that what you have to say will be put on equal level with what someone else from a culturally more favored social background has to say. these things fall away on barbelith. we are here reduced to barebone interaction. only your way to present your content and the interaction of the other individuals will evaluate your post. meaning that in theory you start with equal footin in here, at least concerning the ability to speak out. and of course i am assuming that you do have the opportunity to make it onto barbelith in the first place (having access to a pc, internet and so on.)
yes, saturn, i am trying to say that barbelith (or the internet in general) can be and should be a 'liberatory space' and i am well aware that in order for it to be just that we need to make sure that a 'level playing field' is a theoretical thing only - even in here - but i think i have to point out, again, that the best possible approximation of this theoretical idea can be achieved in here. and that is due to the fact, as i suggest, that many 'handicaps' that cannot be easily circumvented in 'real life' simply do not exist in here. but i definitely am with you when you say that we have to be aware of creating such an environment and cannot just take it for granted or self-preserving.

[quote whistler] So while I would agree that power works differently online - as you say, interrupting is more difficult here - I would clarify that power works differently on message boards, rather than not working. [/quote]

yes, i agree, whistler. as a matter of fact i was trying to say just that. only i obviously did not.
also, yes, of course you would not necessarily know more about anyone's identity if you saw them in person. but there are the blunt things: a white person coming from a cultural background where black people are being discrimnated against might have to deal (at least subconsciously) with the preconceptions against black people before he/she can engage in an unhindered discussion; a female, having been severely abused by male persons throughout her life and having aquired a general refusal of male persons, will not easily be able to listen to a male person without going through a lot of aggression. and there are the subtle things: gestures, facial expression, body language. these things definitely only exist virtually in here and therefore could also be disconnected from the way we receive and perceive in here. i say 'could' - it's a theoretical thing.

so, while i agree that we are in general strongly bound to the cultural and social identity of our physical lives it is much easier to shed any preconceptions in here. on the other hand it might also be harder to get rid of some of the peskier ones, like general assumptions of gender or tendencies to interpret or the trappings of perception.
 
 
whistler
09:21 / 17.08.06
Werewolf, I’ve found it difficult to formulate a coherent response to your last post, partly because of the rationalism I think you’re bringing to the debate, and partly because of the way your argument seems quite contradictory. As an embodied practitioner of feminist revolutionary thought it’s important that I bring what’s in my gut to this dialogue, as the starting-point for logical and philosophical lines of argument. This integration of the affective is central to my cultural mode of communication as an intellectual and as a woman.

Your argument seemed inconsistent to me. I think you are saying that a message board might ‘theoretically’ be an ideological tabula rasa offering the possibility of ‘barebone interaction’, while simultaneously agreeing that ”our 'real lives' dictate the way we present content on barbelith”.

The rationalism (assumption of one logic, which is the logic) in statements such as this:

”a female, having been severely abused by male persons throughout her life and having aquired a general refusal of male persons, will not easily be able to listen to a male person without going through a lot of aggression”

which you discuss as a self-evident example of ’the blunt things’, makes me uncomfortable. Actually, potentially, it could make me so furious that my fury might go off the scale and become boredom. (It does not, however, provoke aggression.)
I wondered
(a) whether this was meant as a reference to all women
(b) whether you were referring to me in particular and finally, possibly belatedly
(c) whether you are a woman who has experienced such abuse.

Conversely, I’m grateful for and intrigued by our conversation about ‘functionality’ or technologies for communication. You seem to have conceptualised ‘the message board’ as an innocent, unbiased, given environment. I’d proprose that as intensely ‘made’ environments, the structure of message boards is not only not neutral but actually replicates ways of communicating and existing that already exist in ‘outside life’. For example, most message boards incorporate threads on different topics and these categorisations can’t function without drawing on pre-existing ways of thinking and knowing.

I’m interested to hear from others, generally, about how exactly we might distinguish between content and context in the ‘made’ environment of an internet message board; whether that’s desirable or even possible.
 
 
Leidan
11:54 / 20.08.06
I'd like to develop what I think is at least part of the core of werewolf's posts.

Of course, we cannot remove the personal, the real-life, from considerations of the power dynamics of the board. But I think the immediate area of consideration is the structure of power *here*, in the forum itself. As the forum is composed of writing purely, apart from a very basic mod/regular user power structure, this power dynamic it seems to me takes the form of a discourse.

This is where Barbelith is remarkable, both in terms of its power, including its liberatory power, and its exclusionary/oppressive side. I will be straightforward here, because I think this is actually quite a straightforward issue - Barbelith uses an *academic* or literary discourse, and any discourse which attempts to impede on it which finds itself outside of the sphere of academic structure gets pretty much torn down.

This thread is a perfect example - we have an argument consisting of many thousands of words to begin the thread, over a relatively obscure distinction. We have references to and quotes from quite heavy literary/academic writers; bouvouir and friere. Certainly, this is 'headshop' and is thus labelled to an extent as academic. However, the discourse pervades every forum - if not overtly then covertly. the 'paddywhack' thread for instance is a wonderful example of how any 'casual' conversation thread, apparently under some kind of laid back, easygoing, humourous discourse, belies a bubbling undercurrent of academic thinking that is liable to take over the thread at any time. Each word thus chosen on the forum is chosen with this discourse in the back of the poster's mind, by necessity. As an interesting observation, in this thread, note bacon's reaction to the eruption of worry over the meaning of the word paddywhack; he is convinced the whole thing is a joke; he finds it unbelievable, ridiculous. I believe a very large proportion of people would react similarly, or simply stop reading.

'But why do you insist on calling it academic?' - I hear this in the back of my mind. An argument may run that this discourse that I identify would be better characterised as liberatory; it attempts to proceed in all fairness, arresting discrimination, sharing knowledge, providing a full, rigorous analyses of one's motivations, reasons behind saying particular things, etc etc. This kind of impulse in discourse exists everywhere, through all segments of society - but nevertheless, the form presented here is still academic. Barbelith is excellent at arresting anything steeped in foolish assumption for example, and many 'urban' cultures here in the west that seem furthest from academia seem to me to do this excellently well also; however, the discursive form is starkly different; where in one discourse we might see an honest, blunt dirisive word to shut the idiot up, in Barbelith we see very, very lengthy insistences on a full account of the contents of the person's mind, and lengthy counter-posts full of various cultural and literary references beyond the scope of the majority of the population. Furthermore, I know that many of the members of the boards actively dislike a certain form of 'standard' academic discourse; with good reason. I use the word for simplicity's sake - it rests on the basic fact that to operate within this discourse you really need to have read quite alot of books, preferably to do with critical theory, politics or magic. Thus, academic or literary.

I don't think this discourse is in any way more negative than any other, but I believe it to be the prime operative in any exclusionary power-dynamic on Barbelith. To operate within it you need a literary background, and a literary background has cultural and socio-economic factors. This is not about ability, or cleverness; people who do not operate with an academic discourse are not less able than those who do - it is cultural, and economic, and the lack of familiarity with this discourse is what alienates the vast majority of the population; not only practically all ethnic minorities, but also even most middle-class white people. The representation allowed in Barbelith, with the exception of a few self-taught individuals, is the same as the representation we see in the universities.

The only way to make Barbelith more open is to destroy this discourse in some sections of the board, which is very, very difficult to do.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
13:39 / 20.08.06
I use the word for simplicity's sake - it rests on the basic fact that to operate within this discourse you really need to have read quite alot of books, preferably to do with critical theory, politics or magic. Thus, academic or literary.

In your infinite wisdom, Leidan, please tell me what magic has to do with academia. Or literature, for that matter.

I really wanna know.
 
 
Lurid Archive
21:18 / 20.08.06
Well, I think "academic" may be being used a little more broadly than usual, but it is surely the case that the study and practice of magic is analagous to some academic study, and may even be occur in an academic context. Similarly, the study of mythologies as part of magic is literary is some sense.

The broad point that Barbelith is difficult to access for the non-academically inclined (I'd separate the Magic off here, instead of including it as part of the same dynamic) has been brought up before and certainly concerns me. There does tend to be a lack of consensus about what barriers are actually in place, if any. Maybe we could try talking about that? That is, can we identify some clear cut instances of power dynamics in action on Barbelith, beyond the overt sexism, racism, homophobia and so on?
 
 
werwolf
09:06 / 21.08.06
@ whistler

i don't think there's a contradiction in what i said - the functionality of the board IS (without a doubt) a tabula rasa. or does this board automatically, without human interference, censor anything that we write? i would not think so. but, yes, there are HUMANS interacting here, which makes it a theoretic thing, because we are being strongly influenced by other things than the functionality of this board. while the board would, in its technological functionality and aspect, allow us to represent content without any 'hooks', we - humans that we are - cannot do so. or at least i would not know of any human capable of doing just that. sorry, perhaps i'm stuck, but i don't see any contradiction here.

about the example and what you've wondered:
ad a.) no, it was not a reference to all women, nor was it even a reference to all women severly abused by male persons, but it was an example of, and may i quote myself, a female, having been severely abused by male persons throughout her life and having aquired a general refusal of male persons. i did not make a generalization. in real life it is difficult to interact freely when you're being affected in any way.
ad b.) no, i was also not referring to you. i do not know anything about you and i do not know why i should refer to you. i fail to see why i should've done that.
ad c.) no, i'm a male person. i have not suffered abuse of that kind, but other forms of abuse were directed at me. but i know women who went through such trauma and found it, at least inititally, very difficult to interact with me free of bias only because i am male.

i gave these 2 example (white/black, female/male) because i have experienced these things personally and therefore they came to mind first. there are a myriad of similar examples, of course.

you wrote: You seem to have conceptualised ‘the message board’ as an innocent, unbiased, given environment. I’d proprose that as intensely ‘made’ environments, the structure of message boards is not only not neutral but actually replicates ways of communicating and existing that already exist in ‘outside life’. For example, most message boards incorporate threads on different topics and these categorisations can’t function without drawing on pre-existing ways of thinking and knowing.

erm... i believe you misunderstood. the functionality of this forum is unbiased! how and which environment we create within this technical functionality is an entirely different matter. the choice of topics for instance - the functionality here is that the board is able to categorize content, but which topics are introduced is a choice of the humans that bring content to this board.

and something else: i do not consider myself a 'rationalist' nor would i ever dare to uphold any reason or line of logic as 'the ultimate one'. and i think it's quite on topic with this thread that you would assume that i am. please allow me to use that as base for this next part of my post.

@ Lurid Archive - what about assumptions? our individual outlook on things makes us perceive and interpret things in different ways. and especially here, where there is only the written word, we sometimes have only two option to get ahead in an discussion: either assume or detour and ask. i cannot think of any barbelith instances (i do not have enough experience with and knowledge of the board in its entirety) where assumptions could've lead to fatal misunderstandings and falling outs, but isn't that imaginable?
 
 
Leidan
09:25 / 22.08.06
There does tend to be a lack of consensus about what barriers are actually in place, if any. Maybe we could try talking about that? That is, can we identify some clear cut instances of power dynamics in action on Barbelith, beyond the overt sexism, racism, homophobia and so on?

I don't believe there are any overt barriers in place, beyond the discourse itself. In terms of identifiable instances, I think most of them take the form of silence - the silence of people who feel alienated from the forum, and simply don't post, and the silence of lack of replies on posts which don't fit in well with the discourse.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
13:19 / 22.08.06
Well, Leidan, there's absolutely nothing to prevent you from starting threads, posting replies to threads you think are important, and otherwise stopping the 'silence'. Or if you think people are being too abstract and incomprehensible, ask them what they mean. Engage.

And yes, Lurid, magic is esoteric. Ie, you need to either be learning or to have en expert knowledge to appreciate most of what happens in the Temple. But esoteric magical knowledge is vastly different to talking about, say, power dynamics. So the inclusion of magic in Leidan's list of threatening or undesirable 'discourses' makes me suspect that the whole argument stands in for some other problem. It's inconsistant -- which is why I asked about it. And I'm not being flippant, I really would like an answer and to discuss it.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:09 / 22.08.06
Well, I assumed the argument was simpler than that, Mister Disco. That is, it is inconsistent in the sense that the reasons why one might be excluded from the Temple are different from the reasons one might be excluded from the Headshop or the Lab, because the knowledge base and type of argument used is different. I thought the idea was to point to similar, perhaps analogous, phenomena as seen in different places on the board.
 
 
whistler
06:55 / 23.08.06
Werewolf: and something else: i do not consider myself a 'rationalist' nor would i ever dare to uphold any reason or line of logic as 'the ultimate one'. and i think it's quite on topic with this thread that you would assume that i am. please allow me to use that as base for this next part of my post.

I'm bummed to hear that you felt I was making assumptions, Werewolf. I am critiquing your arguments; not you personally.
 
 
Leidan
10:57 / 23.08.06
And yes, Lurid, magic is esoteric. Ie, you need to either be learning or to have en expert knowledge to appreciate most of what happens in the Temple. But esoteric magical knowledge is vastly different to talking about, say, power dynamics.

It's not different - if you need to be involved in an expert discourse to participate in the Temple, you're going to be alienated from the temple if you can't operate in this discourse. I actually think Lurid is right in possibly separating the Temple, as I think you can be involved in magic without reading a huge amount, and also that it's a very specialist knowledge that doesnt require reference to a range of outside knowledge, that for instance politics / headshop etc require you to.

Well, Leidan, there's absolutely nothing to prevent you from starting threads, posting replies to threads you think are important, and otherwise stopping the 'silence'. Or if you think people are being too abstract and incomprehensible, ask them what they mean. Engage.

There's nothing concrete to prevent me starting threads, but there's nothing to make anybody reply to them either, apart from the words I use. If the words I use do not engage with people, nobody is going to reply, hence the silence. Outside of the concrete, there are a million things to prevent me starting threads; my own motivations, rationalisations, etc. If I believe my writing ability, reasoning ability, so on, doesn't fit with that that's in operation on the forums, I'm not going to post.
 
 
werwolf
05:56 / 30.08.06
@ whistler: don't worry, i wasn't taking it personally. i'm not a native english speaker and i sometimes use phrasing with connotations i am not aware of, which might explain why you'd think i was using 'rationalist' argumentation. but i'm learning as we go. :)

but i do think you were making assumptions, which is fair enough - your interpretation of my argumentation has (necessarily, imo) to be based (at least partially) on assumption, because you don't know my background and you don't know how well i can use the written word to communicate my opinions. the word stands naked to the eye of the observer and his/her interpretations and assumptions. which is really sometimes the only way we can get ahead in discussions within an environment that has no other signifiers BUT the word.
and even if you weren't, i sure was assuming that you were making assumptions.

let me try to illustrate what this could hypothetically mean in regards to the core topic of this thread.
let's say person A (A) made an indistinct posting to a thread that has left many readers and participants of that particular thread scratch their heads. let's also say that A is not very well versed with the written word and has difficulty writing down his/her thoughts clearly. now there's person B (B) who on the other hand is very able to 'verbalize' his/her opinions and also to do this convincingly. B interprets A's posting as being offensive and replies accordingly by stating this and challenging A to clarify his/her position. A fails to do that with subsequent postings. the other participants and readers of the thread now have the choice to either try to engage A on their own and make up their own minds or interpret the dialogue between A and B or just ignore it all. worst case scenario: A finds him-/herself at the end of a verbal beating stick, notwithstanding the true intent of A's objectionable posting.

don't get me wrong. the process of calling out unclear postings and demanding clarification is imo very healthy and only helps to keep things in a discussion polite, comprehensible and fair. and it's also obvious that anybody with good writing skills will find it easier to communicate in a text-only environment. my concern is with the (only too human) tendency to make assumptions (even without being aware of it).
 
  
Add Your Reply