Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Conversation >

Awesomed in Translation

Page: (1)2

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

13:49 / 27.07.06

Today, in conversation with a colleague, I learned that in French, a brass knuckle is the "poing Américain." Which is just amazing.

I mean, which would you rather be hit by: the brass knuckle, or the American Fist? No contest, really.

As good internationalists, I'm sure we run across excellent translation-stuff all the time. Anyone got others?

13:57 / 27.07.06

not a direct translation....but...

My spouse was doing data entry and entering a metric ton of Japanese school kids english home work/interviews. A huge percentage of the kids listed the reason why they liked their home was because it was "fragrant".

I now imagine Japanese children all live in palatial spaces of luxurious scent.

Ex

13:59 / 27.07.06

I think I'd prefer to be smited with UK version, the knuckleduster. I actually had no idea this was another subtle Transatlantic variation.

16:28 / 27.07.06

The only example I can think of is the Irish (albeit christianised Irish) word for masturbation which is fein truailiu. It literally translates as "self pollution". Granted more on the disturbing end of things than anything else.

16:35 / 27.07.06

I learned that in French, a brass knuckle is the "poing Américain." Which is just amazing.

I mean, which would you rather be hit by: the brass knuckle, or the American Fist? No contest, really.

In Portuguese, it's "soco inglês", which transalates to "English punch"

So, who'd win in a fight: the American Fist, or the English Punch?

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

16:59 / 27.07.06

The English Punch, hands down. If only because he'd look so damn dashing do it.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

17:08 / 27.07.06

I love that a trifle here is a "sopa inglesa"--English soup.

17:13 / 27.07.06

"soco inglês", which transalates to "English punch"

See, now I want to make a punch I can call a "Brass Knuckle".

18:51 / 27.07.06

I was once told performing fellatio was referred to in France as "faire la pipe Anglaise". I can't find any evidence for it, though.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

19:31 / 27.07.06

I can vouch for the "pipe" part from here in Quebec, as a pipe smoker who has made several public and very embarrassing gaffes. Never heard "Anglaise" applied to it, though.

19:47 / 27.07.06

I've been trying real hard to think of funny literal translations, but the best I could come up with - other than the English Punch - is "saída à francesa", which means "French exit", or "leaving, French style". It's when people leave a party without saying goodbye to anyone (because there's too much people in the party, and it would being annoying to do so). It got its name, I guess, because it's supposed to be some sort of "secret" that only the really "chique" people know about (as opposed to those uneducated "nuveau riche" people who have to be the center of attention and make a fuss when they are about to leave and blah blah blah). Not very much fun, huh? Oh, c'est la vie...

19:56 / 27.07.06

Hey, isn't it cool how people from some ethnic or national identity groups promul;gate ignorant stereotypes about people from other ethnic or national identity groups, and how that stereotyping bleeds into the language? I mean, it's fucking hilarious!

Like, there's a Cuban dish of black beans and rice that they call "Moors and Christians." The black beans are the Moors, see, and the white rice is the Christians. Get it? Guess the Spanish settlers of Cuba had a thing about Moors. But they don't get off the hook, because get this—in Holland they call cockroaches "Spaniards!" A hoot, am I right?

And here in the States, wow! Like, the slang for being swindled is "gypped." because, you know, Gypsies are dishonest! What a hoot! And if you are underpaid for your goods or services, you've been "jewed." Get it? Because they're renowned for being tight with a dollar! AWESOME!

And there's an idiom for undesirable manual labor that's REALLY FUCKING FUNNY. I'll tell you later—trust me, you're gonna LOVE this one.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

20:30 / 27.07.06

That's... swell, Jack. Thanks for coming out and sharing.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

20:48 / 27.07.06

Back on topic: if you're looking for some deft translating, the subtitles for a recent release of Duck Soup are great. I watched the whole thing with the French 'titles on a while ago just out of curiosity, to see how the hell they deal with Groucho Marx in French. There's so much wordplay involved, and at such a pace, that I figured it would just be lost in translation.

It's not. Whoever translated the subtitles for Duck Soup into French did a great job.

Just as a f'rinstance, early in the film Groucho says to Mrs. Teasdale "You can leave in a taxi. If you can’t leave in a taxi, you can leave in a huff. If you can’t leave in a huff, you can leave in a minute and a huff. "

I was honestly baffled by what the hell could be done with that in French. "Huff" doesn't translate. So the "minute and a huff" gag doesn't work at all. How the heck can they turn that into French?

Quite eloquently, as it turns out.

She can leave in a taxi, as the joke goes in English. If she can't take a taxi, she can "partir en semi." ('semi' = truck). If that's too soon, she can leave in une minute et semi -- "semi" being close enough to "demi," or half, to spin the "minute et semi" as equally witty as "minute and a huff" zings off in English.

A few minutes later, Mrs. Teasdale tells Rufus "this is a gala day for us," and Rufus replies "a gal a day is enough, I don't think I could handle any more." It's a pretty obvious play in English, but again in French, "gala" works but "gal" just doesn't scan. So how the hell do you handle it?

Again, elegantly. It's "une journée merveilleuse," according to Mrs. Teasdale, which Rufus ('Antoine,' incidentally, which confused the hell out of me until the later line where Firefly says he can provide a Rufus over her head, which then becomes an 'An-toit-ne', toît meaning 'roof') responds to by saying "je préfère une femme dormeuse qu'une mère veilleuse," which means roughly he'd rather have a sleeping woman before him than a watchful mother -- and okay, that sounds a little creepy, but damn it's clever.

I actually prefer some of the French gags to the original English ones, but that may be because I was amazed at how much care went into the translation.

20:55 / 27.07.06

Back on topic

what was off topic?

21:05 / 27.07.06

I didn't see anything upthread that was any more offensive that the American-to-Brittish translations that happen elsewhere on the board. Really, how is pointing out that brass knuckles are called the American Fist any different than comparing biscuits to cookies? This is a far, far cry from the "Funny Engrish Names" thread of yore.

21:06 / 27.07.06

And there's an idiom for undesirable manual labor that's REALLY FUCKING FUNNY. I'll tell you later—trust me, you're gonna LOVE this one.

OK, we get your point (though no translation is needed in that one). None of the examples above, though, are such racist epithets (although I'm not sure about the "fragarant" one, I didn't get that). We understand where such blatantly racist translations come from but the examples above are quite perplexing: why an English punch; why an English soup; why an English pipe; why an American fist? In fact, I'd say such interesting idioms might, given a chance, lead us on to some sort of examination of why non-English languages have such a bias against Anglocentric culture. Hm?
I don't think this is the same sort of thing as Fu Dan Ti (although it could become such) just yet.

21:12 / 27.07.06

an english pipe because the english were often stereotyped as effete homosexuals, perhaps?
i've certainly seen some of that in movies and books, and the pipe makes sense as a derivative of that particular homophobic racism.

21:21 / 27.07.06

Yes, that had crossed my mind, but does it mean the French disavow oral sex as something they would never do because it's "a bit gay, like the English"? I doubt it. There are cross-currents which strip the term of its prejudices and turn it into something more playful, possibly even respectful? Take, for example, the term "French knickers" or "French letter". There's nothing particularly French about either, but examining what their derivations are might be interesting.

21:23 / 27.07.06

It's also a well-known fact that the English aren't steriotyped as homosexual, they're steriotyped as pure evil! Come on, haven't you seen any Hollywood blockbusters in the past 30 years? The person with the English accent is always the bad guy.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

21:25 / 27.07.06

I'm familiar with "pipe," sans Anglaise, in French, but I never made any associations beyond "you put it in your mouth and suck on it."

The "English" part (if it's true, and nobody's actually verified that it is yet -- Google gives me nothing but smoking pipes, made by the English, mostly from the French version of eBay)... just the traditional English/French rivalry combined with generic homophobia?

As far as brass knuckles/knuckledusters (great word, btw)/EnglishAmericanFistPunch... no idea. The movies, maybe? I doubt anyone coined the phrase because they thought Americans punched people more than they did.

21:30 / 27.07.06

It's also a well-known fact that the English aren't steriotyped as homosexual, they're steriotyped as pure evil! Come on, haven't you seen any Hollywood blockbusters in the past 30 years? The person with the English accent is always the bad guy.

Not really; it's only the last ten years or so, and because English actors are the only ones left who don't mind being stereotyped as non-American baddies.

21:31 / 27.07.06

why an English punch; why an English soup; why an English pipe; why an American fist? In fact, I'd say such interesting idioms might, given a chance, lead us on to some sort of examination of why non-English languages have such a bias against Anglocentric culture. Hm?

Well, for a while in the past, with that whole "naval empire" thing, the ENglish people were pretty big on fucking nations up, so I guess some ill-feelings left-over may be to blame.

For instance, there a popular - although currently archaic - expression in Brazil that goes like this: "para inglês ver", which translates to" for a Englishman to see". It means somehting that is made purely for shows and has no real meaning. (as in "this law is for a Englishman to see). It comes from the 18th century, when our country was going indepentend from Portugal, and we needed all other countries to ackowledge we were indeed an independent nation. The English Empire, which was already big at the time, said they would only recognize us under the following conditions: we would pay an obscene ammount in gold to the Crown (that was the begining or our international debt, which even to this day is one of the major causes of our under-development); English citizend who commited crimes in Brazil would be judged by English judges under English law; and other sovereignty violations such as those that I can't remember now. We had to go along, because England was at the time the only industrialized country, and our bigges trade partner/client. But people started to make little cons to fool the English eyes watching over our economics and politics, leaving only something "for shows". Hence the expression.

So, as you can see, it's really your fault, isn't it (I just kid, mind you)

And, btw, what about Brazilian waxing? I mean, not every woman down here does it, so...

21:31 / 27.07.06

It's also a well-known fact that the English aren't steriotyped as homosexual, they're steriotyped as pure evil! Come on, haven't you seen any Hollywood blockbusters in the past 30 years? The person with the English accent is always the bad guy.

is the phrase that new?

21:33 / 27.07.06

Have to disagree on that one Lekvar, they/we (don't ask) are stereotyped as evil gayers at every turn. Alan Rickman? Kenneth Branagh? Christopher Lee? If you're English in a Hollywood film, you're not only the bad guy, you're also in denial about your sexuality. Now THIS is off-topic. Where were we?

21:43 / 27.07.06

does it mean the French disavow oral sex as something they would never do because it's "a bit gay, like the English"? I doubt it

'cocksucker' is more often than not used in the pejorative, usually towards a man who would, of course, never want to be seen to be willing to do such a thing.

21:46 / 27.07.06

Point taken.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

21:51 / 27.07.06

My mother live in Montreal for years and ran a restaraunt there for a while. She knew little french when she first moved there, and picked up a bit of the Quebec French while she lived there.

She has a few notable stories about her menus being wrong because of her slap dash translations. The one I remember was when the special was sheppards pie she wrote a literal translation as "pâté en croûte de sheppards" or something similar. Her French-Canadian regulars had to correct her and tell her it was called Pate Chinois, which scans as Chinese Pie.

I have since looked it up at that is the French-Canadian name for the dish, but I have no idea why that would be.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

21:58 / 27.07.06

I figured it would root back to the Chinese labourers who built the railroads, but according to Wikipedia (citing the book "A Taste of Quebec"), one possible origin is that it comes from Quebecois migration back and forth from a town named China, in Maine.

Lent credence by the fact that -- if my eighth-grade history serves me well -- the Chinese labourers mainly worked in the Prairies and Westward, but not so much in Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes. I can't swear to that, though.

*

23:52 / 27.07.06

This is an example of a time when one should keep one's -isms straight, I believe, Jack. Because "faire la pipe Anglaise" may have some genuine rancor behind it, and it may be personally offensive to you, and it is probably homophobic, but it is not the same thing as a culturally embedded racist insult. That power differential thing— English or French or American we're all colonial powers, and that we insult each other and it gets into our languages is not the same thing as when we insult people we've conquered or enslaved and that gets into our languages. Or is that not what you were trying to get at?

23:56 / 27.07.06

so it isnt racist unless it's oppressor to oppressed?
i mean, i would agree it's a different stripe, but are you honestly saying one shouldnt call it racism?

i'd like that explained a bit, dude.

23:58 / 27.07.06

i'm thinking that when people from some ethnic or national identity groups promulgate ignorant stereotypes about people from other ethnic or national identity groups it is racism.

do you disagree?

*

23:59 / 27.07.06

Oh, and hey, as DM points out, some of these phrases can come out of domination and be directed by colonized people at the colonial powers, rather than the reverse, and there it's an act of resistance.

00:01 / 28.07.06

i'd say -

oppressor to oppressed? = Racism.

people from some ethnic or national identity groups promulgate ignorant stereotypes about people from other ethnic or national identity groups = Xenophobia.

*

00:10 / 28.07.06

Racism is racial prejudice with the power to back it up. That's why there is no "reverse" racism or racism against white people; there is prejudice against white people but it is not racism. This definition is widely used and accepted by people and organizations with stated antiracist goals.

Page: (1)2