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Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:22 / 18.07.06
If I Was Thin

If I was thin everything would be different.
If I was thin everything would be better.
If I was thin I would be better.

If I was thin my clothes would fit.
(And everyone would like them and they would never ever wear out.)
If I was thin I'd walk faster and farther.
(But never become impatient.)
If I was thin I'd earn more money.
(But never ever become greedy.)

If I was thin I would be able to speak 11 different languages and would never blush,
Or stammer over another irregular verb
(Even when I started learning the 12th)
If I was thin I'd be a celebrated writer.
If I was thin I'd be younger.
If I was thin I'd be smarter.
If I was thin I'd be a real boy.
If I was thin no-one would ever tell me to cheer up or calm down
If I was thin I'd be kinder, more loving, more generous
If I was thin I'd be sunshine boned with competence, white-toothed and gentle.
If I was thin I would make everyone happy.

If I was thin I would never get headaches, or get tired and out of sorts.
If I was thin I would no longer be subject to rage or despair.
If I was thin I would no longer be subject
To anything.
 
 
Ender
21:47 / 18.07.06
I was really worried when I first laid my eyes on the first three lines!

You did pull this one off though, I would say, but just barely.

I felt a bit bludgened. Good thoughts, I liked what you were saying, although I felt it was a bit loud.

There were a number of tingly moments for me though.

And thats saying something.
 
 
whistler
15:17 / 21.07.06
I want to echo some of these wishes/ aspirations/ delusions and claim them - in the sense that your poem tackles questions that I sometimes deal with, it drew me and not only that, it taught me. (I have been thinking lately, if I was thin, they'd take me far more seriously. Thanks for helping me to notice.)

I have quite often used a list/repeated-phrase format to get me going with an idea, too, so it was interesting to read a piece written this way from the 'outside', not as the author. I especially like the wryness of this line:

If I was thin I'd earn more money.
(But never ever become greedy.)


and I enjoyed the intelligence and fluency of this:

If I was thin I would be able to speak 11 different languages and would never blush,
Or stammer over another irregular verb
(Even when I started learning the 12th)


The repeated phrase seemed to purposely expose the obsessive way that this kind of unrealistic, masochistic thinking can go on and on...

I wanted you to set the speaker free, or maybe just to raise a more overt question about these assumptions of 'if she was thin...', perhaps by breaking out of the repetitive phrase structure at some point, and doing something much freer of form...

So there you go. My interpretation...possibly hopelessly misunderstanding your intention... although perhaps even that could be helpful.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:18 / 22.07.06
Ender: Hmm. It wasn't supposed to be loud so much as insistant--like a low-volume but intrusive background noise.

whistler: I wanted you to set the speaker free, or maybe just to raise a more overt question about these assumptions of 'if she was thin...', perhaps by breaking out of the repetitive phrase structure at some point, and doing something much freer of form..

I kind of wanted to use the repetition and the absurdity to show up and attack those assumptions. I did toy with a few lines written as if coming from outside that structure, but in the end they seemed unnecessary, overkill.
 
 
Ender
18:35 / 22.07.06
I would really like to come a crossed this poem in a collection. I think that it stands out. And being loud is not a bad thing. Hitting someone over the head is not a bad thing.

Bukowski (my favorite writer) made a career out of being loud and smacking people with his words.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:56 / 23.07.06
Mm. I'm not crazy about it, frankly. Obviously it's a polemical piece, and as a proclamation it just about works. As a poem? Not so much.

Just about everything I've ever had to say about poetry I've collected here, so I'm just gonna poach a bit of what I've said before...

The great paradox of poetry is that specific, concrete, sensory images are a far better tool for conveying abstract emotional states than are the words for the abstract things themselves. Eliot called it the objective correlative: Uncle Bill summed it up as “no ideas but in things.” It amounts to the same hard truth—that you cannot effectively describe a thing in terms of itself. When you say, “I am me,” what you say may be technically correct, but you’re not actually telling me anything. But images, comparison, appeal to the senses—now you’re talking.

To say that the grind of work “cancels out all of my positivity” is a nothing-phrase, because it is so subjective—positivity may mean something different to me than to you. Specific sense-impressions, though, tend to be universal. When I say that the day sucks the iron out of my spine, you know what I mean in a way that doesn’t come across when I baldly state that it “neutralizes my ambition.” An image will get the job done even (perhaps especially) if it’s fanciful, or funny. My heart, a fluttering budgie in the birdcage of my ribs, however risible a line, at least makes me feel something, while an idea-word like love—or days, or thoughts, or dream, youth, life, or half-a-million others—just hangs there, like vapor, and has no impact whatsoever.

This is what we mean by “Show, don’t tell”—a phrase uttered by every writing teacher, but rarely explained properly.


Looking at this piece, there are some very nice lines. I also liked the passage about the languages that Ender quoted above; I liked "sunshine boned with competence, white-toothed and gentle" even better.

These are also the lines that are the least abstract, the most grounded in sensory experience. This is not a coincidence.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
21:33 / 23.07.06
Wouldn't this be better off in the Daily Poetry thread? Not sure if mods can copy and paste across - but I will try if that's OK by you Mordant.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:06 / 23.07.06
Jack: Thank you--that is the kind of feedback I find most helpful.

Whisky P.: Well you can if you want, but, um, why? I haven't really kept up with the daily poetry thread but it doesn't seem to invite the kind of vigorous actually-that's-a-bit-shit-and-here's-why criticsm I was hoping for.
 
 
Olulabelle
22:18 / 23.07.06
I agree Mordant. I don't think we should move it because it's not 'daily poetry', it's a specific poem asking for specific criticism. I think it should stay.
 
 
Ender
22:20 / 24.07.06
here here, keep it here.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
08:47 / 25.07.06
OK, but that's kinda what the poetry thread is for as well - if people ask for criticism they get it, IIRC. (If they don't they don't, obv.)

Plus Daily Poetry, regularly if erratically updated, is more likely to stay near the top of the topic list and so the poem itself will hopefully get more "airplay"/ criticism for longer rather than one brief starburst of attention. And also I feel sorry for Daily Poetry. It is lonely and needs friends.

But a) I'm outvoted and b) come to think of it you're probably going to add more poems to this thread - is that the plan?
 
 
Princess
11:50 / 25.07.06
I liked it. All seemed fluent and nice to me.
Apart from the "real boy" line, could you unpack a bit?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:13 / 25.07.06
This is like a chant, with call and response, reads a little like some Navajo stuff.

It seems like this poem has a different persona for every line. The person who wants to learn eleven different languages seems different to the person who wants to be a real boy. Thus, I would have called this poem "Songs of the Fat", which is a reference to Whitman's Song of Myself, and make it specifically into one of those poems I can't remember the name of but is meant to mimic many voices.

Also, the repetition is a strong feature but methinks over strong and as was said above, bludgeoning, which is a shame, as it's obviously intended to work against the bludgeoning that everyone feels when they're compared to "normal" "pretty" people etc.

To defuse some of this, I would tab indent every other line, so:

If I was thin I'd be a celebrated writer.
---->If I was thin I'd be younger.
If I was thin I'd be smarter.


I also think you could break up the lines beginning "If I was thin" into stanzas and intersperse short unique burts of information. Something tells me it might be effective to incoporate facts about eating disorders into these breaks. Something like:

If I was thin...
--->Something
If I was thin
--->Something
If I was thin...
--->Something
If I was thin
--->Something

1 in 4 girls with anorexia
What's all that about?

If I was thin...
--->Something
If I was thin
--->Something
If I was thin...
--->Something
If I was thin
--->Something


It's like half a drum and bass track at the moment- you've got the pounding drum, but you need to make them more subtle and have regular intervals of someone shouting BREAK! and then a beatdown.

I hope this makes sense.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:16 / 25.07.06
could you unpack a bit?

I'm not sure that's a particularly useful question, Princess. Surely the function of a poem is to unpack itself, and any failure to do so must be counted among its flaws.

More helpful, I would think, would be to point out the specific bits of the poem that you found unclear or confusing, so that Mordant can flag those sections for revision.

Unless, of course, you're using "unpack" in some other sense
 
 
Jack Fear
16:25 / 25.07.06
Legba (and other aspiring critics): Something I said before elsewhere, which I think bears repeating...

When critiquing the work of others, you must do your level best to suppress the writer part of yourself, and be only a reader. When you are reading someone else’s work, never, ever presume to re-write it. Never. Even if your re-write would make the work better. Don’t do it. Because that’s not what you’ve been asked to do. It doesn’t help the author. The author doesn’t need you to tell hir what to do: s/he needs you to tell hir what s/he has just done.

It doesn’t help the text, either. The text already has an author—it doesn’t need you. What it has not had, up to this point, is a reader. That is your role: that, and nothing else.

And the author doesn’t really need to know how you would do something—s/he’s still trying to figuring out how s/he would do it. And that’s what really matters—because, in the end, s/he is the one who’s going to have to [write the final draft]. Not you.


'nuff said, I hope?

Whisky P: Constructive criticism—indeed, criticism of any kind—is expressly outside the remit of the Daily Poetry thread, as per its abstract:

A poem a day is what the poet needs,
to keep the dust from gathering on his weeds.
Hurl poems here, whether happy, deep or sad;
we're not allowed to mention that they're bad.


This caused quite a kerfuffle at the time, as I recall, with some of our young poets quite a-tremble at the judgment calls being slung their way: in the end, the decision was made to keep Daily Poetry a critique-free zone.
 
 
Princess
16:39 / 25.07.06
Makes sense. I can't really see what it was about that line that got me. But it just felt off. It might just be me but the line jarred for me. The res of it is fairly self explanatory. I really do like it. Like this big list of lies. Something in that gives me pleasure. Just the one line stuck.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:14 / 25.07.06
Oh, I'm sorry—I didn't catch your meaning on first reading. Reading this...

All seemed fluent and nice to me.
Apart from the "real boy" line, could you unpack a bit?


...made me think that you wanted everything except that line "unpacked."

What you meant, of course, was

All seemed fluent and nice to me, apart from the "real boy" line. Could you unpack [that one] a bit?

Punctuation, see.
 
 
Quantum
18:11 / 25.07.06
Pinnochio innit.
 
 
Ender
20:42 / 25.07.06
Wow,

maybe we should move this thread to discusion.

(a shy look around, before saying)

Just kidding everybody!
 
 
Princess
09:22 / 27.07.06
Punctuation is my ancient enemy, I chase it across the language tundra, whatching it bleed Grocer's Apostrophe's
 
 
Princess
09:23 / 27.07.06
Spelling is also an ancient enemy, it bleeds innapropriate Hs.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:40 / 27.07.06
Yeah, Jack, I actually went and read your blog but only after I'd already done what you rightly adsvise not to do. Still, I find it hard to explain what I think would make the poem better without using an example...
 
 
Jack Fear
11:13 / 27.07.06
You have not yet absorbed the message.

Your job is to record your reactions to the poem as it stands now. It is Mordant's job, and only Mordant's job, to figure out ways to make the poem better.
 
 
Sax
11:24 / 27.07.06
What I really liked about this was the way the first stanza actually got thinner, from a visual point of view. I'd have liked this device to continue throughout, although how that would affect the rhythm God only knows.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
06:48 / 28.07.06
MC: If I was thin I would be able to speak 11 different languages and would never blush,
Or stammer over another irregular verb
(Even when I started learning the 12th)


Wonder about maybe breaking up the lines here to, ah, encourage a stammer? Maybe:

If I was thin I would
be able to speak 11
different languages and would
never blush
or stammer
over another irregular verb

...? I'm not sure. I quite like the aside about the 12th language. If you were feeling particularly beatpoetical you could vary the locations of those phrases in the space so that it breaks up the rhythm further. Structure mirroring content would reinforce the idea on a more subconscious level. The anaphora works really well, it's one of my favourite devices and could even be pushed further into weirder or more unrealistic territory to highlight and bounce off of the assertions that being thinner = being more emotionally stable and capable of functioning.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
14:10 / 29.07.06
in terms of the meta conversation, i mean i think in general it's probably not a good idea to patently rewrite what someone else is working on but i don't think that's what mordant was doing. s/he was making suggestions about how to approach the poem and using examples to demonstrate the point being made.

something in me objects to jack's tone here, which i'm perceiving to be somewhat polemical. it's a public forum and people should be able to critique in the style they see fit. i think it's fine to suggest ways of critiquing better but to posit someone else's criticism as somehow automatically unhelpful because it violates some tenet is not that useful, imo.

as for the poem itself, there were definitely lines that i enjoyed but i also think of it as definitely a first pass. i thought that there could have been better modulation between the general and the specific, such that the poem could somehow gain momentum and built to its conclusion. right now, i don't really sense a direction. i also think that right now, it's sitting between this point of whether the "i" in the poem is saying something realistic or patently absurd... i think it should veer more in the direction of the latter, so that it's clear that the poet's expectatinos are extremely unrealistic. i also personally don't think all the lines should start with "if i was thin," because it doesn't leave any room for subtlety, which i think the poem needs. finally, the prescriptive grammarian in me wants to say "if i were thin," rather than "if i was thin."
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
14:15 / 29.07.06
sorry, in the previous post i meant legba, not mordant.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:16 / 29.07.06
something in me objects to jack's tone here, which i'm perceiving to be somewhat polemical.

Hey, object all you want.

Better yet, prove me wrong.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
18:12 / 29.07.06
i don't really engage in polemics, so i don't think there's a static right or wrong. i think everyone has a different approach and people should be free to critique as they choose within the bounds already set up as part of the regular discourse of the board.

my statements above are pretty much as wrong as i'm going to prove you. i think you're enforcing a rule without actually thinking through its application in this case. its similar to your post about time and the directive to show and not tell. sometimes, telling is good.

writing is all about exceptions. breaking the rules leave room for innovation, and sticking to rules when they don't make sense once applied is to me the opposite.
 
 
Sekhmet
18:16 / 29.07.06
I would suggest that the first three lines be left off. They deliver the same sense that the rest of the poem conveys, but a little too directly, too blatantly - it feels like the subject line of an essay to me, and somehow renders the offbase logic of the rest of the poem less subtle and therefore less effective.

I like it, though. Especially sunshine boned with competence, white-toothed and gentle... that's so evocative, I actually caught my breath a bit on first reading.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
18:53 / 01.08.06
Sekhmet: I would suggest that the first three lines be left off. They deliver the same sense that the rest of the poem conveys, but a little too directly, too blatantly - it feels like the subject line of an essay to me, and somehow renders the offbase logic of the rest of the poem less subtle and therefore less effective.

I'd agree with that comment; they feel more like they were the lead-in or initial spark for the poem and could possibly be removed safely if Mordant felt that was the direction ze wanted to go in.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:06 / 27.01.07
'K, I had another go of this.



If I Was Thin

If I was thin everything would be better.
I would be better.

If I was thin my clothes would skim my body, bespoke and slick.
(And everyone would like them and they would never ever wear out.)
I'd walk effortless miles, soft-shod swiftness
(But I'd never become impatient.)
Make money, green notes flying to my fingers like birds,
Cool spreadsheet drizzle flooding my bank account
My thousand competences reflecting in the gold.
(But I'd never become greedy.)

If I was thin I would speak 11 different languages and never blush,
Or stammer over another irregular verb
(Even when I started learning the 12th)
If I was thin I'd be a celebrated writer.
I'd be younger.
I'd be smarter.
I'd be a real boy.

If I was thin no-one would ever tell me to cheer up or calm down
Velvet-hearted, doe-eyed, good things would slip from me
The way "Good morning" slips out, or "How are you?."
If I was thin I'd be sunshine boned with competence, white-toothed and gentle.
If I was thin I would make everyone happy.

If I was thin I would never get headaches, or get tired and out of sorts.
I would never need to crush cans or break bottles in the bank
Mutter at lost keys or curse the phone.
I would no longer roll my shoulders down or turn my face away.

If I was thin I would no longer be subject
To anything.
 
 
Leigh Monster loses its cool
01:54 / 28.01.07
wow, what a difference...

I think the reason the 'real boy' line feels off--still--is because it doesn't have the same tone as the rest of the poem. It feels sarcastic, whereas the other..wishes(?) use hyperbole--dramatic irony--rather than allusion, a more self-conscious irony, to communicate the writer's awareness that they're unrealistic. It sort of seems to give the game away too soon...especially where you've placed it now, it becomes overly conclusive and summary-like, right in the middle of the poem.

The ending also seems slightly abrupt in the new version, suddenly having its own stanza the way it does. Other than that, the poem just got a hundred times better, least in my humble opinion.

My heart would be a velvet cusion, my eye a doe's eye

whoo.

oh...i hope you don't title it 'songs of the fat.' part of what makes this poem good is that you don't have to be fat at all to obsess this way over being thin.
 
 
Princess
22:26 / 28.01.07
The last two lines are wonderful. The poem has lost of the sort of ritualistic/chanting element which it had, and I liked, but I think it may have gained something in terms of expression. It's a much prettier piece now.

"real boy" isn't grabbing me either. It just jolts me. Maybe it's because you are female identifying, and so the "real boy" thing seems at odds with that. I'm not sure if that's all of why it jars actually, it just doesn't seem right. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

But still, the whole is pretty rocking.
 
 
grant
00:32 / 29.01.07
The only thing, really, that catches me is "bespoke and slick" -- it might be the word-sounds, or it might be that clothes are literally bespoke (which is an origin) and metaphorically slick (which is more an informal and slightly fuzzy/abstract descriptor).

Might just be me.
 
  

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