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James Randi

 
  

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Lionheart
20:55 / 02.10.01
What is your opinion on him?
 
 
Enamon
09:37 / 03.10.01
He's very.... randy.
 
 
Saint Keggers
09:37 / 03.10.01
yet somehow...dandy.
 
 
Clavis
09:37 / 03.10.01
Randi rocks the fucking house. No lie. He is Houdini* meets Penn & Teller meets Richard fucking Feynman. He rocks.

Check out his website, http://www.randi.org

He is also one of the nicest people I have ever met.

Clavis

*I refer, specifically, to Houdini's lifelong efforts to debunk swindlers who pretended at occult abilities.
 
 
Lionheart
17:30 / 03.10.01
I've heard that too... Until I've read his works and criticisms of him. He's the opposite of a blind believer. He's a blind sceptic. He misquotes people, ignores a lot of proof of the paranormal and curses people out.

For example, he accuses Pat Price and the whole 1970-1990 Military Remote Viewing group of cold reading Targ and Pathoff, the people who had given the Remote Viewers the coordinates of the target. That is impossible. Why? Because not only did Targ and Puthoff not know what the targets were 75% of the time but that 75% of the time the military itself didn't know what those coordinates contain. Like the time Price Remote Viewed a soviet naval base and saw a brand new submarine that was being developed. He drew out how the submarine looks... months before the military discovered about the submarine from sources inside the U.S.S.R.! Randi never mentions this or other events!

He dismisses orgone energy by saing it was all Reich's "imagination". He never explains why he dismessed it. Then he goes on and dismisses N-rays. The N-Ray experiments were conducted by a ton of scientists who confirmed the original findings. Then a writer for either Science or Nature magazine "disproves" N-Rays. It's a bit complicated for me to explain how he "disproved" N-Rays. i'll explain it later when I have more time, but the point is that if the writer had actually RESEARCHED material on N-Rays and Odic energy then he would've found out that N-Rays travel SLOWLY through metal wires! I'll explain this more fully later.

So basically, Randi took the writer's word as the word of God without doing any investigations!

Then he goes on to "debunk" Nina Kulagina . Nina is/was a Russian psychokinesisist. She could move small objects without touching them.

Now before I say anything else about her I have to point out how Randi "disproves" a lot of paranormal claims. He hears what has been done and then explains how the person could've tricked the scientist. Well, he should've done some research on Nina and here's why...

Randi says that Nina moved objects by using a fine string. This is impossible. Why? Because scientists had foreseen that possibility. That's why they enclosed the objects in glass boxes. nina could still move the objects. Hmm... Let's see, we know that string can't pass through glass.... and if Randi did any research he would know that as well.. But he didn't. Or maybe he did but refused to mention it.

This makes me doubt Randi's credibility, especially at a time when a lot of sceptic books mention his writings as a major source of information.
 
 
grant
18:26 / 03.10.01
Apparently he's a nice enough guy who really likes being famous, and has found a way to do so.

I know a cameraman who has worked for his TV show/specials/whatever they are. He's got a studio not far from where I now sit.

I've interviewed one parapsychologist who isn't too fond of Randi because of a tv challenge he offered:
Randi had a third party draw a picture, seal it in an envelope, and then give it to Randi. The psychic's job was to "see" what the picture was without opening the envelope. A correct impression would result in a $100,000 payoff.
Well, this parapsychologist (an MD from Vero Beach) brings in this psychic he's been studying, a Greek kid from New Jersey named Jeff Sugleris, and has him take the challege.
Sugleris stares at the envelope and says, "Well, it's been a stressful time, I'm not sure. It's either a car, a pathway through a field, or a horse."
Randi says, "You can't have three guesses. Pick one."
At random he picks the car.
The picture was of a horse, running through a field.

The parapsychologist insists Sugleris should have gotten at least $30,000 for being one-third right. He didn't, of course.
 
 
Saint Keggers
01:22 / 04.10.01
From what ive seen of him on Larry King he seems like a man who's determined to be right to the point of ludicrousness (is that an actual a word?). Reminds me of most highschool teachers.
 
 
Lost Nauth
03:04 / 04.10.01
I agree that Randi may have jumped to conclusions under the guise of facts and reason. However, while I do believe there are psychic powers out there (though how strong and visible they are is another matter), Randi has disproved several hoaxes. In regards to the psychokinisesist and the glass containers, it is possible to move small objects (dollar bills, papers, little balls, etc.) inside, and it requires no psychic effort whatsoever. I remember watching a show that showed how it was disproved, because the person was really just blowing air. It's hard for me to describe and I'll admit the fact is almost as hard to believe as the fiction, but it's true and it was shown. Basically, by just blowing a small stream of air in the same direction, you can cause the object to move although it is covered by glass. I'm not sure about the science to prove it, but the point is it's possible to do without psychic powers. And I will try to find a link for something related to this.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
13:42 / 04.10.01
James Randi, like Houdini before him, is a champion of truth.

I’m not trying to start an argument on this board about the paranormal, which I suspect would degenerate into one side saying “This really happened! This really happened!” and the other side saying “Prove it!”. I’m saying that Randi’s well-informed skepticism and debunking skill have exposed some very dangerous charlatans. If you read his book “The Faith Healers”, you’ll see how he protects the elderly and infirm from jackals like Peter Popoff, a fundamentalist con artist, or the plague of “psychic surgeons” that were in vogue a short time ago.

Randi is extremely confrontational, so he doesn’t make a good TV spokesman. So what? It doesn’t make him one whit less sharp at ferreting out deception, including self-deception. This makes him a valuable aid to scientists investigating claims of the paranormal. Scientists’ skills at experimentation and research don’t necessarily make them any better at uncovering hoaxes than other people. And whether or not paranormal powers exist, it’s certain that hoaxers like Uri Geller flourish. Someone has to help separate the wheat from the chaff . . . if wheat there is.
 
 
Lionheart
09:16 / 05.10.01
Actually, if I remember correctly, Randi never disproved Uri Geller. He just pointed out how the scientists studying him could've been tricked.

Now, I agree that Randi has exposed hoaxers. But he also falsely presents information in order to disprove other psyhcics and stuff who could be real. Just like some "psychics" are hoaxers, so are some sceptics "blind disbelievers".

Oh, and blowing air (though I don't understand how you could blow air into a completly sealed glass box) would move small, small objects. But it wouldn't explain matchboxes and spoons (I don't mean spoons bending. i mean spoons moving.)

So, basically it now seems to me that Randi isn't a reliable sceptic source. Why? Because, from what i've seen, he's heavily biased. This throws doubt on some of his work. This makes you wonder how many truths and how many non-truths are in his work.
 
 
Clavis
09:16 / 05.10.01
A few things:

In 1972, two scientists from the Stanford Research Institute validated Uri Geller's claims of paranormal powers. As a result, Geller quickly became an international celebrity, using his "psychic abilities" to bend spoons and move objects. In a effort to expose the truth about Geller, Randi went to Johnny Carson. (Carson and Randi knew each other because Randi had been doing magic professionally for many years, and had been on Carson many times). The next time Geller was on, he squirmed and fumbled through a disastrous 22-minute appearance. Try as he might, he was unable to perform a single feat.

Unbeknownst to him, Carson's producers, consulting with Randi, had set up safeguards against cheating!

(Randi also presents information about magician's techniques (such as misdirection) that make it more obvious what Geller was tying to do.)

Make no mistake: Geller is a fake.

Lionheart -- What "false information" does Randi provide? That's a rather strong accusation; I'd like some details to back it up. And your use of the term "disprove" indicates that you don't really understand the scientific method. Geller made claims. The evidence didn't back him up. When Geller was not given the opportunity to pre-bend spoons with his hands (or by pushing them up against a stable surface), his powers magically failed him! Amazing!

What Randi does, for the most part, is expose techniques that make fraud in the paranormal fields possible. He also provides information on such areas as statistics and chemistry that make seemingly miraculous feats less impressive. And he has a $1,000,000 prize available to those willing to take a scientifically-constructed test to demonstrate their claimed abilities or powers.

One of the most important aspects of the test is that the subject and the testers (Randi, BTW, is never directly involved in any way with the test, lest his "negative vibes" affect the results) agree BEFOREHAND on the criteria for success, whether it's a matter of proximity, numbers, what-have-you. Everyone who has ever actually been tested has inevitably failed, and then, after failing, only then do they come up with one or more of the standard baloney excuses why they didn't perform up to the standards that they supposedly *always* hit: the aforementioned negative vibes, they were seeing the future instead of the present, there's some molecules in the testing room that interfered, blah blah blah.

Many of the shamans, mystics and magic men doing their tricks and fooling countless dupes are using old magician's tricks -- they simply aren't admitting that they're tricks. Randi has never claimed that psychic powers don't exist. No scientist can make such a blanket statement. He simply isn't willing to accept such ridiculous and counterfeit "evidence" as sufficient for supporting outrageous claims of paranormal ability.

People who believe they have powers act differently, upon being exposed to informed skepticism (as opposed to "blind skepticism"), than do people who know they are scamming. For example, such "cold readers" as Sylvia Browne and John Edward will never subject themselves to scientific testing... not because the vibes will prevent their powers from working, but because THEY KNOW THEY DON'T HAVE ANY POWERS!

Randi is not a "blind skeptic". He does his research and presents more likely alternatives. Most of the people he ends up investigating are not self-deluded, nor are they legitimately gifted. THEY ARE CON ARTISTS.

A company that makes "human dowsing rods" (gun-like devices that they claim can detect human heartbeats from a great distance and through solid material) (This website has more information on the whole saga: http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover/dkl.htm ) actually got them used (for a little while) at the site of the WTC disaster. These devices have been tested and proven to be not only non-functional, but literally glued together in such a way that the circuitry isn't connected up. The company intentionally defrauds private companies and governments. Lives, in all reality, might have been lost due to the delay caused by the use of these useless gadgets. So Randi is being "blindly skeptic" by pointing this out?

Go to his site -- http://www.randi.org -- and search the archive of his weekly commentary. You will find that his primary targets are such con artists as these; people and companies selling special "de-clustered water", magnetic therapy insoles, homeopathic cures, and other such hoaxes, scams and snake oils.

John Edward, a man who claims to "speak with the dead", is a fraud and a phony -- and worse, he is a ghoul who preys on people's grief, and gives them false hope. Randi is like an anti-Edward; you may not want to hear what he has to say, but he's being honest and helping people to accept reality.


Clavis

P.S. I will end this long tirade with a quote from Randi's website:

'Our universe and our lives are filled with mysterious and magical things yet to be discovered. Randi does not object to faith in these wonders as long as that faith does not insist on being taken as proven. But when blind belief refuses scientific inquiry, he bristles, "We have fought long and hard to escape from medieval superstition. I, for one, do not wish to go back."'

[ 05-10-2001: Message edited by: Clavis ]
 
 
Saint Keggers
09:16 / 05.10.01
While im not saying whether the paranormal exists or does not I am also not saying that I need proof (proof conforming to my standards, ofcourse) that it exist to admit that it MAY exist..which is what I think J.R. does.
As for the Geller incident on the tonight show..I actually saw that and a "exposee" on it. It seems that J had invited U onto his show to so his feats and had R set it up to be " un fakable". When U got on the show U claimed that he couldnt do it becasue he just didn't have it in him at this moment (ok, not his EXACT phraseology but it the same idea). Now J claimed that this was PROOF that He had Exposed the faker! He however didnt allow for the possiblitly that that U was actually telling the truth when he said that he could'nt do it NOW..
Lets just end with the maxim judge not lest ye be judge.....(and ofcourse we wont mention the lawsuits that have been put onto CISCON and won.....)

I dont know James Randi I dont know Uri Geller (heck I dont even know myself (except from the biblical sense) but im EXTREEMLY reluctant to trust anyone who is certain of anything.
 
 
Clavis
09:16 / 05.10.01
Kegboy, as I pointed out, no scientist or science-minded person can insist that something DEFINITELY DOES NOT EXIST. All they can do is state that, in their estimation, the evidence is insufficient to support the claim. However, Randi is certainly within his rights to conclude that something is a fraud if the evidence, in his opinion, is sufficient to support the claim of fraudulence. And Randi has a record of presenting rather strong evidence for those claims.

As for Geller's Tonight Show appearance, you misrepresent Randi's conclusions. Of course he allowed for the possibility that Geller was legit, AT FIRST, but Randi had a theory that suggested that Randi was faking, based upon his knowledge of sleight of hand, misdirection, etc. He recognized that Geller was doing in a way that a non-magician would not. So he tested Geller. 22 minutes, which would have normally been, and in every previous case had been, filled with Geller signature "miracles", and Geller was unable to perform?

Yes, it is possible that, somehow, Randi's evil skeptic-rays prevented Geller's gift from manifesting. It's also possible that Buddy Hackett lives in my stomach.

I am so sick of hearing the excuse of "negative energy" interfering with paranormal abilities. Like I said before, most of these people are frauds. They know they don't have any powers, and so they refuse to perform under conditions that might show them using their tricks. Most of the people that do agree to preliminary testing are self-deluded. In both cases, however, these people make extravagant claims... not "sometimes, if the 'energy' of the room is right, I can get a sense of the number you're thinking of...", but "I can, 100% of the time, know what 3-digit number you're thinking of, even if we're separated by a room, even if you don't believe me!", or something like that.

Then, suddenly, when they're put to the test, they pull out the excuses and the bullshit.

Who said Randi was certain of anything? He is merely making observations and drawing conclusions. If people consider him to be an expert on these matters, it is only because he is.

Clavis

[ 05-10-2001: Message edited by: Clavis ]
 
 
Clavis
09:16 / 05.10.01
Or is it just that some people in this community really, *really* want paranormal abilities and powers and whatnot to exist, so they immediately look for ways to discredit naysayers?

Just a thought.


Clavis
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
11:07 / 05.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Clavis:
*I refer, specifically, to Houdini's lifelong efforts to debunk swindlers who pretended at occult abilities.
As opposed to the dying-of-peritonitis-after-being-slugged-by-somebody Houdini.

quote:Oh, and blowing air (though I don't understand how you could blow air into a completly sealed glass box) would move small, small objects. But it wouldn't explain matchboxes and spoons (I don't mean spoons bending. i mean spoons moving.)I recall seeing on a Channel 5 "documentary" that it is possible to feign phenomena usually ascribed to parapsychology using a roomful of equipment, which was demonstrated on video. Can't recall anything further about it, other than the fact that I don't think it was magnetism, and that the guy running the room full of stuff looked like he listened to a lot of Grateful Dead.

I'm only tangentially aware of Randi; don't know that much about him. However, fake as he may be, I give a big round of applause to Uri Gellar for having a wedding cake with spoons on it.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
14:36 / 05.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Lionheart:
Actually, if I remember correctly, Randi never disproved Uri Geller. He just pointed out how the scientists studying him could've been tricked.


And Galileo never proved the earth goes around the sun. He just proved that it fits all the facts. Come on! I’m willing to grant the possible existence of psychic powers, but if you can’t see through Geller’s pathetic dog-and-pony show then you might as well just paint “SUCKER” on your forehead for the convenience of passing snake-oil salesmen.

quote:Originally posted by Lionheart:
Now, I agree that Randi has exposed hoaxers. But he also falsely presents information in order to disprove other psyhcics and stuff who could be real.


"All of the psychic surgeons Randi investigated were frauds, but that doesn’t prove all psychic surgeons are frauds!" No, but I would say the burden of proof lies on the people who claim to have these psychic gifts. Why should we take their word for it? If I had paranormal powers, I’m confident I could cooperate with scientists and debunkers to produce uncontestable evidence of them.

quote:Originally posted by Lionheart:
Oh, and blowing air (though I don't understand how you could blow air into a completly sealed glass box) would move small, small objects. But it wouldn't explain matchboxes and spoons (I don't mean spoons bending. i mean spoons moving.)


Argument from incredulity. “I don’t understand how it works, so it must be untrue”. Don’t you suppose that there are people in the world clever enough to come up with sleight of hand tricks that would fool you?

quote:Originally posted by Lionheart:
Actually, if I remember correctly, Randi never disproved Uri Geller. He just pointed out how the scientists studying him could've been tricked.

Now, I agree that Randi has exposed hoaxers. But he also falsely presents information in order to disprove other psyhcics and stuff who could be real. Just like some "psychics" are hoaxers, so are some sceptics "blind disbelievers".

Oh, and blowing air (though I don't understand how you could blow air into a completly sealed glass box) would move small, small objects. But it wouldn't explain matchboxes and spoons (I don't mean spoons bending. i mean spoons moving.)

So, basically it now seems to me that Randi isn't a reliable sceptic source. Why? Because, from what i've seen, he's heavily biased. This throws doubt on some of his work. This makes you wonder how many truths and how many non-truths are in his work.


So what you’re saying is that nobody who doubts the existence of paranormal powers is qualified to investigate paranormal powers. Presumably no one who doubted the existence of philostogen should have been allowed to study philostogen either.

Randi is biased in that he’s been doing this a long, long, time and met a whole lot of frauds and self-deluded people. I rather imagine that he’s pretty sick of those people. But the whole point of what he does is that he sets up impartial tests, tests that would reveal whether or not paranormal powers were in operation regardless of bias on his behalf or bias on the behalf of the people claiming those powers.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
14:37 / 05.10.01
quote:Originally posted by kegboy:
I dont know James Randi I dont know Uri Geller (heck I dont even know myself (except from the biblical sense) but im EXTREEMLY reluctant to trust anyone who is certain of anything.


Then you should definitely avoid the people who are certain that Geller has psychic powers.

Geller has never performed a trick that Randi can’t duplicate with stage magic. Quote from Randi: “If Geller is using psychic powers to bend spoons, he’s doing it the hard way.”
 
 
Saint Keggers
14:37 / 05.10.01
Ok, now show the other picture. The one where all those spoons are bent!
 
 
Magic Mutley
15:20 / 06.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Lionheart:
Actually, if I remember correctly, Randi never disproved Uri Geller. He just pointed out how the scientists studying him could've been tricked.

Now, I agree that Randi has exposed hoaxers. But he also falsely presents information in order to disprove other psyhcics and stuff who could be real.


This is pretty much standard scientific method. You do an experiment that shows A implies B, & you publish it in a paper. Then someone comes along and works out another possibility - that according to you data A could imply C. So you devise another experiment to distinguish between B & C. This is how theories are strengthened or disproved.

The onus is on the scientists to take on board Randi's theory, & devise a new experiment to eliminate it.
 
 
Clavis
02:09 / 10.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Wheaty Goodness:
The onus is on the scientists to take on board Randi's theory, & devise a new experiment to eliminate it.


Nope. The onus is on the person or persons claiming the existence of a heretofore undiscovered power, energy or mechanism for defying the known laws of physics, physiology or other areas of science.

If Randi is suggesting that a person has no powers, energies or whatnot, and is therefore much like anyone else, with the exception that they can do some sleight-of-hand, then Randi has already presented his theory. It is the onus of those who purport to have these powers to demonstrate them.

Occam's Razor says that, between sleight-of-hand and magical superpowers that only work when you can't test them... you pick the sleight-of-hand.


Clavis
 
 
Magic Mutley
06:22 / 10.10.01
Clavis, I might not have been clear in my last post. I was refering to the scientists that were investigating Uri Geller, & - I'm assuming from Lionheart's post - had concluded that he possessed psychic powers.

Randi had suggested a method whereby they could have been tricked. It is therefore up to these scientists to devise a new experement to eliminate this.
 
 
Jimmy Turncoat
06:28 / 10.10.01
I'm not doubting that most people who claim spectacular psychic powers of the spoon bending variety and go on TV to make cash out of believers, are very probably nothing more than sleight of hand show men and con artists.

However, from my own experience of experimenting with magic and the like, it seems to involve the use of various techniques which influence probability in your favour.

Most 'occult' texts tend to put a great emphasis on the state of mind that you need to get into for working magic of this kind, and it's invariably a state of disinterest in the eventual outcome. The negation of lust for results coupled with a strong imagination and an unwavering will.

If you would imagine for a moment that such 'psychic' effects could also be produced given the above factors, then you can see how it would be virtually impossible to reproduce such effects under close scrutiny, least of all on 'The James Randi TV Show' when millions of veiwers have their beady eyes on you.

From my own experience with sigils and such, it's only ever really worked when I've forgotten about it, when I've completely stopped investing an interest in it and let the universe get on with things. Magick never seems to work in exactly the way you had in mind, and there always seems to be the element of surprise at work in the results you appear to get.

So if you extend that out to take in 'psychic powers' and the like, you can see how the setting of a controlled test would totally fuck up the delicate balance needed to get results. It really could be a case of 'magical superpowers that only work when you cant test them'.

For example, if you told everyone you know about a sigil working that you're doing and went around saying stuff like "this is definitely going to work, I'll bet you a million dollars that this will work in exactly the way I say it will", then the chances of it happening would be virtually nil. This sort of thing really does seem to have an effect on magick. If you're ecpecting something to happen, that expectation will get in the way of things and prevent such an outcome from occuring.

So from my experience with this I'm prepared to give a bit more credence to the claims of psychics who don't have their abilities on tap and simply cant reproduce effects under laboratory conditions.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
13:40 / 10.10.01
I’m glad we can have a friendly discussion about this. I’m interested to hear your thoughts, and I hope that you read my comments as being part of an honest exchange of ideas. I’m not trying to denigrate your world view.

quote:Originally posted by Jimmy Turncoat:
. . . from my own experience of experimenting with magic and the like, it seems to involve the use of various techniques which influence probability in your favour. . .


. . . but if I understand you correctly, it is impossible to determine whether or not you actually are influencing probability in your favor, because . . .

quote:Originally posted by Jimmy Turncoat:
. . . it would be virtually impossible to reproduce such effects under close scrutiny. . .


Invisible gods say they no make big juju until man with camera leave.

quote:Originally posted by Jimmy Turncoat:
Magick never seems to work in exactly the way you had in mind, and there always seems to be the element of surprise at work in the results you appear to get.


One might say that statistically, the results of performing magi(c/k) are indistinguishable from the results of not performing magi(c/k). (Except, of course, to the extent that magi(c/k) alters the perceptions and behavior of its practitioners.)

quote:Originally posted by Jimmy Turncoat:
It really could be a case of 'magical superpowers that only work when you cant test them'.


. . . and therefore, it is impossible to know whether they work or not. So basically, your system of magi(c/k) calls for blind faith that what you’re doing has any effect.

This is perfectly fine with me. It’s as valid as any other religion, and if it gives you a psychological or spiritual benefit, then I’m all for it--so long as we recognize that this belief is as far outside science as is claiming that god created the universe in seven days, 6000 years ago but made it look billions of years old. Or claiming there is a monster under your bed who is only there when no one is looking.
 
 
Clavis
13:30 / 11.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Wheaty Goodness:
Clavis, I might not have been clear in my last post. I was refering to the scientists that were investigating Uri Geller, & - I'm assuming from Lionheart's post - had concluded that he possessed psychic powers.

Randi had suggested a method whereby they could have been tricked. It is therefore up to these scientists to devise a new experement to eliminate this.


Simply put -- they cannot. As I've said before Geller (and his like) refuse to engage in any truly scientific testing, because they know they will not be able to perform. Hell, if you like, that Carson appearance *WAS* the follow-up test, and Geller failed!


Clavis
 
 
Enamon
13:42 / 11.10.01
Geller was scientifically tested by various scientific organizations. I don't have the references in front of me but I'll put them up sometime today or tomorrow.

Also, check out these links:
http://www.randi.org/jr/03-23-2001.html

and then
http://www.pdbnet.com/thetruth/dear_james.htm

and
http://www.pdbnet.com/thetruth/dearjames2.htm
 
 
Clavis
13:56 / 11.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy Turncoat:
However, from my own experience of experimenting with magic and the like, it seems to involve the use of various techniques which influence probability in your favour.


For example? Can you produce any peer-reviewed evidence that indicates that this is so? Or is it simply wishful thinking? You say you've done "experiments" of your own? Can you present any results of readily recognizable significance?

quote:Most 'occult' texts tend to put a great emphasis on the state of mind that you need to get into for working magic of this kind, and it's invariably a state of disinterest in the eventual outcome. The negation of lust for results coupled with a strong imagination and an unwavering will.


There's a good reason those texts don't want you to be interested in the results...

quote:If you would imagine for a moment that such 'psychic' effects could also be produced given the above factors, then you can see how it would be virtually impossible to reproduce such effects under close scrutiny, least of all on 'The James Randi TV Show' when millions of veiwers have their beady eyes on you.

That's just it. Geller was already a star because he had done just that; gone on national television shows like Carson (there was no "Randi Show"; it was the Tonight Show starring Johnny Carson) and demonstrated his incredible "gifts" on *more* than one occasion.

If you like, you can take this as evidence that, since Geller was not restricted in his venues, he must have simply been a sleight-of-hand performer, and not a legitimate ... what is the word for someone who can perform such miracles? "Extraordanist"?

quote:From my own experience with sigils and such, it's only ever really worked when I've forgotten about it, when I've completely stopped investing an interest in it and let the universe get on with things. Magick never seems to work in exactly the way you had in mind, and there always seems to be the element of surprise at work in the results you appear to get.

Um, guess what? That stuff happens whether you draw any sigils or not! Your "results", as you call them, are called something else by people who don't believe in magical manipulation of probabilities...

"The future."

Assuming that anything that happens to you is in some way attributable to your little magic scribbles is not only flawed science... it's flawed thinking. Guess what? Things happen... and not because you drew a "W" and put an "F" on top of it and surrounded it with hearts and unicorns.

quote:So if you extend that out to take in 'psychic powers' and the like, you can see how the setting of a controlled test would totally fuck up the delicate balance needed to get results. It really could be a case of 'magical superpowers that only work when you cant test them'.

Let's put a few facts together, shall we?

1. The only evidence we seem to have for the existence of "psychic powers" are demonstrations by psychic celebrities (such as John Edward and Uri Geller) and anecdotal evidence (which we will leave aside for the moment).

2. The celebrities who have demonstrated "psychic powers" in the media have done so under conditions (such as during a television taping in front of an audience, surrounded by jarring sounds, bright lights and electrical wiring) which you suggest would normally interfere with said powers.

3. These celebrities have refused to be tested under laboratory conditions, and explain their reticence through a combination of oft-heard excuses, such as your suggestion that their powers will not work under conditions of scrutiny, or that they will not lower themselves to performing for material gain (their books, videos and paid appearances belie this defense, however!)

4. The powers of these celebrities have been duplicated numerous times by debunkers attempting to demonstrate that supernatural forces are not needed to explain the superficially-impressive results of the celebrities' demonstrations.

5. When psychics have been tricked into attempting to demonstrate their abilities under conditions that, although not laboratory-tight, have been altered to make trickery more difficult (such as placing a hidden microphone near a phone book so as to hear the so-called mystic blowing at the pages), they have consistently and predictably failed to the same degree that trickery-proofing was installed.

You're right! It's possible that these powers exist, and that they exist in such a fragile state that anything can disrupt their effect. However, if you cannot provide evidence for your theory, than you are simply engaging in wishful thinking. If the powers really do exist, then there should easily be a way to test them without disrupting them.

quote:For example, if you told everyone you know about a sigil working that you're doing and went around saying stuff like "this is definitely going to work, I'll bet you a million dollars that this will work in exactly the way I say it will", then the chances of it happening would be virtually nil. This sort of thing really does seem to have an effect on magick. If you're ecpecting something to happen, that expectation will get in the way of things and prevent such an outcome from occuring.

Which would seem to distinguish it from any form of demonstrated or accepted interaction with the universe.

I agree with you that your sigil won't work if you tell everyone at work about it. I'm simply saying that the sigil won't work, even if you *don't* tell anyone about it.

quote:So from my experience with this I'm prepared to give a bit more credence to the claims of psychics who don't have their abilities on tap and simply cant reproduce effects under laboratory conditions.

I'd be very interested to hear about your experiences with it. It sounds like a classic example of the post hoc, ergo propter hoc logical fallacy. The phrase means "after, therefore because of". In other words, you are looking at results that come after you have created and "activated" your sigil, and you have concluded that the sigil is in some way responsible for said results.

I suggest to you an interesting experiment: create your next sigil for your next goal (or however you organize these things). However, I ask that you also pray to a crucifix, say mumblings over an onion smeared with pigeon's blood, and blow fifty times into a whistle that has been exposed only to the light of a full moon.

When your results come, whom will you thank? The sigil? Jesus? The onion? The whistle? The pigeon? The moon? The crucifix?

When you enter into the realm of making apologies for your own methods, you had better start refining your methods.


Clavis

P.S. I'm enjoying this!
 
 
Clavis
14:05 / 11.10.01
Ah, yes, Dr. Gary Scwartz. Check out this excerpt from TIME magazine:

"It occurred to me recently that you can prove that Schwartz actually does believe in the Tooth Fairy. In his book he mentions how in thinking about stories, we create info-energy systems that can take on a life of their own. In my review of the book, I mentioned how that would mean that Santa, Ronald McDonald, Freddy Kruger, and Romeo, would then all exist as these info-energy system "spirits." In private correspondence with Schwartz, he agreed with that statement, that his theory predicts the existence of such beings.

Now, the Tooth Fairy has been in many cartoons, jokes, stories, and commercials over the years. Therefore Schwartz's theory actually predicts the existence of the Tooth Fairy. As it is fairly certain that Schwartz believes in his theory, and his theory predicts the existence of the Tooth Fairy, therefore Schwartz must believe in the Tooth Fairy."


quote:Originally posted by Enamon:
Geller was scientifically tested by various scientific organizations. I don't have the references in front of me but I'll put them up sometime today or tomorrow.

Also, check out these links:
http://www.randi.org/jr/03-23-2001.html

and then
http://www.pdbnet.com/thetruth/dear_james.htm

and
http://www.pdbnet.com/thetruth/dearjames2.htm



Clavis
 
 
Enamon
15:15 / 11.10.01
Clavis: Did you read Schwartz's rebuttal?
http://www.pdbnet.com/thetruth/dear_james.htm

quote:VERITAS - The theory of systemic memory predicts that informed energy can take on a "life of its own." Hence, imaginary beliefs such as the toothfairy, even Santa Claus, can potentially exist as dynamical info-energy systems.

However, this does NOT mean that I believe in the toothfairy or Santa Claus. Once again, skeptics make the mistake of confusing theory and predictions with personal belief.

For the record, I believe that when I drop things, they fall However, if you ask do I "believe" in gravity (i.e. Newton’s version of gravity), my honest answer is "I don’t know." I know there are four or five major theories of gravity, and since I am not a physicist, I am in no position to hold a belief.

I believe in observations, and I entertain hypotheses. For the record, I have never seen a toothfairy, I know of no research on toothfairies, and therefore Randi’s abuse of language in making such a claim is irresponsible, inaccurate, and seemingly nasty.


Saying that something can potentially exist as a dynamical info-energy system is a far cry from saying that it exists in real life or that one believes in it. Now go back, and please read all the links. Then post what you think.
 
 
Clavis
15:28 / 11.10.01
I posted it because I thought it was funny. Schwartz believes what he wants to believe. Good for him. His way of operating -- his "science" -- clashes with Randi's, and, in fact, with most scientists.


Clavis
 
 
Chuckling Duck
16:03 / 11.10.01
I weeded through Randi’s crusty columns and Schwartz’s irascible replies (incidentally, you’ve omitted a link to Randi’s second column, which seems a bit unfair), and after eliminating all the back and forth about who’s a showboat and who’s a truth-seeker, what’s left is the men’s simple and contradictory positions:

Schwartz claims that his methodology eliminates fraud, sampling error and researcher bias as possible causes of statistically relevant results, so paranormal forces should be considered.

Randi claims that Schwartz’s methodology is flawed, so his results aren't siginficant.

I haven’t reviewed Schwartz’s studies, so I can’t comment on their validity. I must leave that to his peers. It seems that his methodology was sound enough to get into the Journal of Psychic Research, but not into, say, the Journal of American Psychology. Schwartz defends his choice of publication by saying that more respected journals refuse to accept articles on such controversial research no matter how refined the methodology is. I suspect, however, a truly well-designed study of any psychic phenomenon would be welcomed in any number of respected journals, and so I am inclined to think that Schwartz is somewhat misguided.
 
 
MJ-12
16:09 / 11.10.01
does Schwartz actually define dynamical info-energy systemsat some point?
 
 
Jimmy Turncoat
07:28 / 12.10.01
quote:However, I ask that you also pray to a crucifix, say mumblings over an onion smeared with pigeon's blood, and blow fifty times into a whistle that has been exposed only to the light of a full moon.


That is actually closer to my usual working methods than the sigil trick.

I was tempted to delete my post after I put it up actually, mainly because I wrote it in a hurry and it was a somewhat inept extrapolation of my thoughts on such matters.

As far as sigils go, I actually subscibe more to the view that by focussing intensely on an abstraction of your desire and temporarily holding the belief that this action gives you magickal control over the universe, you thereby give yourself a very heavy behavioral imprint and will then find yourself doing things, often at an unconscious level, that will make this desire come about through means that will on observation appear to have manifested 'as if by magic' but will ultimately have their roots in the unconscious behavioral programming you've given your self.

Change your own personal reality and you end up changing the world at large, as all you really know about the world are your perceptions of it.

It appears to work. I've had success with it. I don't particularly care whether or not it's behavioural conditioning or magic pixies that get the job done, so long as it works for me.

I'm willing to entertain multiple views on the dynamics of it and won't discount alternative models, such as it really working via 'magic'. To an extent, I think that adopting these sort of beliefs can add a great deal of momentum to the behavioural imprint/brain reprogramming thing. If you can convince yourself that your desire will come about through magic, you'll probably take a deeper behavioural imprint than if you view it exclusively as a psychological trick.

To all intents and purposes, you ARE performing magic if you accept that your 'occult style' actions have set in motion an invisible chain of events that have lead to your desire manifesting.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that this is what magic actually is. It doesnt matter whether you're wanking over a sigil or smearing pigeon blood on a whistle and blowing it 20 times. If you can convince yourself totally that such behaviour will have an effect on your reality, then surprising things will come about.

Yeah, it's entirely possible that this stuff would have happened anyway, it's not really possible to form an argument against that kind of air tight supposition, but if you make changes to your beliefs and perception of the world, you will therefore radically change your experiences of it.

If you convince yourself you are under attack by demons, you will begin having experiences to back it up. If you convince yourself that you are a sex god, you will begin to have experiences which back it up. If you convince yourself that wanking over a sigil will ensure you get that job, you will very probably get it a lot faster than you would have done otherwise. Are you following me on this?

If you convince yourself that performing a banishing ritual will make you alert, confident and level headed, then it probably will.

If you convince yourself that you will get some deeper insight into a situation by interpreting the situation in terms of a set of abstract symbols like the runes, you will probably get that insight.

If you really convince yourself that you are interacting with a demon which is going to bring you some cash, you are likely to find yourself getting into situations where that cash will come to you.

Where does behavioural programming end and magic begin? Does it matter?

Magic is about purposefully changing your beliefs and allowing these beliefs to change your experience of the world. Interacting with the dynamics of belief and using it affect changes that appear to come about 'as if by magic'.

Try it out if you like. Convince yourself that it works to the point that your sceptical and critical faculties are put on hold for the duration of the experiment. Choose a goal that's not too belief defying, but something that would be an odd coincidence if it actually took place. Perform your experiment, believe in it absolutely, then forget all about it. Get on with things. See if it has any effect. Let me know what happens. Maybe it wont work for you. Who cares.


quote: There's a good reason those texts don't want you to be interested in the results...

Read some decent books on magic before making remarks like that.

Any books on the subject that are worth bothering about are concerned ONLY WITH ACHIEVING RESULTS. My previous reference to disregarding your 'lust for result' is a part of the process. To stick with the behavioural imprint model, your sigil or ritual or whatever is implanting a suggestion in your unconscious mind which will manifest as behavior that leads to your goal. You then have to forget about your goal, because if your conscious mind is constantly deliberating and obsessing over it, this will get in the way of the suggestion taking root in the deep unconscious regions where it will do it's job.

This is not the same as not caring at all about the results you get. It's important to keep a journal which records your experiments and the results you get. If it doesnt work there is no sense in doing it. Chaos Magic was originally called Results Magic, because the emphasis is entirely on experimentation with the various odd methods that have been grouped together and labelled 'magic', to see what, if any, effect they may have on the collection of perceptions grouped together and labelled 'reality'.

This business of setting aside your lust result is equivalent to a watched kettle never boils. It's about getting your conscious mind out of the way of things. It's not the same thing as having no interest whatsoever in the results you get.

My point is that if psychic phenomena did exist (and I havent personally seen any evidence that it does), it would be most likely to involve a similar process of getting your conscious brain and your lust for results out of the way in order for anything to happen. This isnt always the easiest thing to to do in ideal conditions, and I imagine it would be even more difficult to accomplish on live television and under close scrutiny.

You may disagree. Good for you.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
14:29 / 12.10.01
This has become such an interesting discussion . . . we should turn this thread into a nomad between here and the Magic board. I like hearing all the different points of view.

quote:Originally posted by Jimmy Turncoat:
It appears to work. I've had success with it. I don't particularly care whether or not it's behavioural conditioning or magic pixies that get the job done, so long as it works for me.


That’s the question, isn’t it? Does it really work or not? Are you really helping yourself, or are you just wanking around? Without a double-blind study, you're playing darts in the dark.

quote:Originally posted by Jimmy Turncoat:
If you convince yourself that you are a sex god, you will begin to have experiences which back it up.


Then again, being convinced you’re a sex god might lessen your chances of having sex god experiences.

quote:Originally posted by Jimmy Turncoat:
If you convince yourself that wanking over a sigil will ensure you get that job, you will very probably get it a lot faster than you would have done otherwise. Are you following me on this?


Of course, somone might get a job much faster if he put as much time sending out your resume as he did wanking, literally or metaphorically. I follow your theory, but your data is very poor.

quote:Originally posted by Jimmy Turncoat:
Perform your experiment, believe in it absolutely, then forget all about it. Get on with things. See if it has any effect...It's important to keep a journal which records your experiments and the results you get. If it doesnt work there is no sense in doing it...Chaos Magic was originally called Results Magic, because the emphasis is entirely on experimentation with the various odd methods that have been grouped together and labelled 'magic', to see what, if any, effect they may have on the collection of perceptions grouped together and labelled 'reality'.


I guess this is experimenting in one sense of the word, but it isn’t the same as controlled experiments, so the data you get back is pretty worthless. You draw a sigil (or whatever) and sure enough, in the next week, lots of good things, lots of bad things and lots of strange things happen to you, just as they do every week. Is there a casual relationship? Some people will think so, especially if something particularly dramatic happens to occur, and so they make whatever magical technique they happened to be using at the time a regular part of their lives.

There’s a behavior observed rats and monkeys called overlearning. If they have 25% chance of getting food when they push a lever, often they begin to chain other behaviors into the lever-pushing sequence, apparently in the mistaken belief that they improve the chances of getting the food. If they happened to stomp their feet right before pulling the lever and the lever pays off, they’ll keep stomping their feet. Monkey draw sigil, monkey get banana!

Again, if you believe that practicing magi(c/k) gives you a psychological or spiritual benefit, I’m all for it. But don’t confuse your belief with scientific truth, and don't stop sending out your resume.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:57 / 14.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Chuckling Duck:
Originally posted by Lionheart: Oh, and blowing air (though I don't understand how you could blow air into a completly sealed glass box) would move small, small objects. But it wouldn't explain matchboxes and spoons (I don't mean spoons bending. i mean spoons moving.)
Argument from incredulity. “I don’t understand how it works, so it must be untrue”. Don’t you suppose that there are people in the world clever enough to come up with sleight of hand tricks that would fool you?


You're misunderstanding Lionheart's point (if I understand him correctly) which was 'how can you blow air in a completely sealed glass box'. It's not an argument from incredulity it's pointing out a logical flaw in your statement on the issue.
 
 
Clavis
14:17 / 14.10.01
In the case of the sealed box, I have read of several tricks being used to create the appearance of psychokinesis. In many cases, the box is simply jostled (causing the objects to be randomly shifted from their original positions -- I know it sounds ridiculous but, believe me, it is taken seriously by credulous "testers"). Other times, more complicated tricks are used, including magnets or rigged, "vibrating" boxes. In some cases, the original positions of the test objects are simply different when the box is closed than the testers were led to believe, thus "producing a miracle" when the box is opened.

Bad testing methods allow such trickery. Good testing methods, rather than being some evil bulwark against the energy flow of psychic energy, are a method to discerning between legitimate phenomena and plain quackery.


Clavis
 
  

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