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Israeli terrorism in Lebanon

 
  

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MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
19:19 / 03.08.06
I can't defend Dragon's views, but I have appreciated his presence here, as he reflects reasonably accurately a lot of what I hear when I'm not browsing Barbelith.

The wrongness of these arguments seems crystal-clear when they're dissected here, but being a bit thick about the Middle East and world politics in general, and weaker on analysis than I'd like to be, I've gotten a lot more out of the back-and-forth in this thread than I would have if Dragon hadn't been a participant in it.

note: also followed up on this line of thought in the appropriate Policy thread to avoid 'rot here.
 
 
illmatic
19:28 / 03.08.06
I agree with that to a degree, Matt. Sometimes you need to hear other arguments to define your own. This has defintely happened for me on other Barbelith fora.

For me, what I really don't like about Dragon's views is that they seem to be based on selectively "othering" people on the wrong side from where he's sitting. I feel he's shown a huge lack of empathy towards Muslims, the Lebanese, immigrants, whoever. And the funny thing is that all these people happen to be the weakest, both in terms of money and power. Why, it almost seems like a conspiracy - I mean, one would might think that the rich and powerful control the majority of the world's media or somthing crazy like that!

Anyway, sorry for the threadrot.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:10 / 03.08.06
Can we really, totally take this to the Policy please? This is a complicated, confusing enough issue without adding board politics to it.
 
 
Char Aina
20:26 / 03.08.06
yeah.
seconded.
can we move all posts regarding this for deletion as well?
i include mine in that, this one too.

it's not nice to talk like this about someone's contribution to a conversation in that same conversation, and i reckon you should all zip it.

please.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:35 / 03.08.06
Okay. I don't like putting shit up for deletion unless people have seen it happening... I'll move for deletion of all the off-topic posts (including this one, and any in response to it- so if you wannna make two points, keep them separate and remember one may well be being deleted) tomorrow- I think everyone involved is a fairly regular poster. Anyone who doesn't seem so, I'll save a copy. (I'm actually shitfaced now, so I'm not hitting any buttons until I'm sober).

Does that seem fair, or how should we do it?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
20:37 / 03.08.06
No objections here.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:16 / 03.08.06
Mod hat: I see no particularly good reason to delete this offshoot, assuming that it has burned out, nor do I think that doing so smoothly will be very easy, unless you want another half dozen posts asking what's going on as half the posts are deleted. Also, toksik, please don't editorialise about people's niceness if you are also telling them to stop talking. It's rarely conducive to preventing further comment.

What we can do is draw a line, and say thhat any further discussion should go in the Policy, and any further editorialising here without some relevance to the state of the middle east will be moved for deletion. Groovy? Groovy.

Back ontopic, very roughly. DM, there's a thread about the suicide bomber, but a few notes. Islam can generally be take to forbid suicide:

Do not kill yourselves, for Allah is compassionate towards you. Whoever does so, in transgression and wrongfully, We shall roast in a fire, and that is an easy matter for Allah. (an-Nisaa 4:29-30)

The narrative of heroic sacrifice runs through all the Abrahamic religions - we've talked in this thread already about the Knights Templar, and of course Samson is a pretty good example of an early martyrdom through property damage. Have a look at elene's quote on the statistics of bombing.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
06:51 / 04.08.06
Fair enough, we'll leave 'em.
 
 
Dead Megatron
12:41 / 04.08.06
Haus, I knew not that verse (or whatever it's called), thank you. So, my theory lays ruined. Thank god I only admited its possibility, no actually endorsed it...

Anyway, yeah, the idea of martyrdom and self-sacrifice is all over the place.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:05 / 04.08.06
I think that everyone concerned about the conflict should read the Human Rights Watch report on it. It is pretty thorough, and calls into serious question the proportionality of the IDF, and even casts doubt on the IDF claims that they do not target civilians. The conclusion is that the IDF, as well as Hezbollah, have committed war crimes in this conflict.

In a sense this isn't really news to many of us, but the detailed investigation by a respected organisation should have some weight that shouldn't be as susceptible to immediate dismissal on partisan grounds.
 
 
Francine I
19:13 / 04.08.06
I actually appreciate DM's point, if for no other reason than the fact that ze's highlighted the perceived difference between modern Islamist terrorists and the myriad others who feel little reluctance to inflict violence on civilian targets. What's interesting here is that you (Dragon) equate this with a lacking respect for the value of life, while I think it's very clear that those who undertake this sort of terror (with the self-sacrifice component) value a cause above their own life, but in respect to their willingness to take the lives of others, well, they're actually fairly mild compared to the United States. The United States has inflicted far more civilian death in the name of ideology than modern Islamist terrorists.

Dragon, it's difficult for me to perceive your viewpoints as other than xenophobic in the extreme. It's also difficult for me to ignore a tempting corollary between your viewpoints expressed here and your viewpoints expressed as regards immigrants in the United States. I find myself suspecting that you harbor deep and unexamined racism and cultural intolerance. Unless you intend to articulate substantially different views from the ones you've portrayed thus far, I frankly think that no amount of verbosity will manage a reasonable defense of your perspective.
 
 
elene
14:08 / 06.08.06
Ehud Olmert interviewed in Welt am Sonntag today,

Woher nehmen sie eigentlich das Recht, Israel zu predigen? Die europäischen Länder haben Kosovo angegriffen und zehntausend Zivilisten getötet. Zehntausend Zivilisten! Und keines dieser Länder hatte zuvor auch nur durch eine einzige Rakete zu leiden! Ich sage nicht, dass es falsch war, im Kosovo einzugreifen. Aber bitte: Predigt uns nicht über den Umgang mit Zivilisten.

Which means, more or less,

How dare you lecture Israel? The countries of Europe attacked Kosovo and killed ten thousand civilians. Ten thousand civilians! And not one of these countries had suffered even a single rocket attack! I don't say it was wrong to intervene in the Kosovo, but please: don't lecture us about the proper way to handle civilians.

I’m speechless.
 
 
grant
17:50 / 07.08.06
I heard a thing on NPR's Talk of the Nation call-in show the other week where they had a couple military dudes -- some active duty (or recently active) high-ranking officer-type and a professor at the Naval Academy -- talking about the missile attacks & the problems in dealing with "scoot & shoot" hardware (the missiles are mounted on the backs of pickup trucks, basically).

Anyway, the officer said, at one point in the conversation, that only one conflict in recent history had a higher military death toll than civilian death toll, and that civilians were suffering more and more as warfare develops. I have no idea what the one exception was, or how recent "recent" is.
 
 
elene
18:21 / 07.08.06
The Falklands War (1982), I guess. There were hardly any civilians to kill.

The war lasted 74 days, with 255 British and 649 Argentine soldiers, sailors, and airmen, and three civilian Falklanders killed.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:44 / 07.08.06
I have no idea what the one exception was, or how recent "recent" is.

I'm totally guessing here, but the only one I can think of is the first Gulf War, in 1992. But I may be completely offtrack here (I do remember one instance were a US piercing bomb destroyed a civilian shelter in Bhagdah, killing over 200 or 400 people). Anyone got a clue?
 
 
elene
19:29 / 07.08.06
Well, this Human Rights Watch report discusses the problem and concludes that perhaps 2,500 Iraqi civilians died as a result of the air campaign. In comparison the coalition suffered 345 dead. But, on the other hand, the Iraqi military lost between 25,000 and 100,000 troops. Depends how you look at it. And one ought also remember that the UN sanctions, which are estimated to have killed 400-500,000 children under the age of five, were a direct continuation of this unfinished attack with other means.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:15 / 08.08.06
Mods - is there any way we could get the title and/or the abstract amended for this thread? It's just that it seems inappropriate for it to state as fact that the Israelis are engaging in terrorist acts in the Lebanon when there's plenty of debate going on around the issue within the thread. 'Is Israel committing terrorist acts in the Lebanon? Discuss' seems less inflammatory...

Anyone else read Monbiot's article in today's Guardian, about the likelihood of this action having been planned for over two years? Felt his conclusions were well-judged and argued with almost no hysterics (which is unusual for the man, in my opinion), but can't see much supporting evidence for what he claims is the basis of his argument (very few citations, which is always worrying).
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:23 / 08.08.06
Hellbunny: As a mod, I'm disinclined to change the title and abstract unless requested by the thread starter. People are allowed to take controversial or debatable stances when starting and titling a debate. The only cases I can think of where I would change the title and abstract is to correct for comprehensibility, to help the search function or to moderate for extreme offensiveness - none of which apply here.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:02 / 08.08.06
True, except that we're not discussing Israeli terrorism in Lebanon, or at least not exclusively - we're talking about acts identifiable as terrorist on the part of Israel and Hizbollah, although the Israeli actions do have a far higher bodycount. Perhaps "The IDF and Hizbollah take turns to attack civilians"?

Either way - there's a question about whether Hizbollah is hardening attitudes to Israel in Lebanon, and whether they are also hardening attitudes to Hizbollah. While this is going on, they are incapable of providing precisely the services that had made them an important part of the support system of southern Lebanon. Meanwhile, although the Shi'a solidarity card has credit, what abbout the non-Shi'ite inhabitants of the Lebanon - the Druze, Christians and Sunnis? What do they stand to gain from this, and why should they be supportive of Hizbollah? Of course, that just makes for further instability in southern Lebanon, which probably helps Israel by making it harder for the UN to establish a credible peacekeeping force.

And Israel could use the help right now - much as the UK's army has been revealed as hopelessly ill-equipped for battle in Iraq, Israel's armed forces should be, frankly, embarrassed at how badly it has performed in precisely the kind of engagement it is meant to be designed for - air-based conflict against a technologically inferior enemy. If you were a ragtag militia in the area right now, you might be feeling pretty good about your chances...
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:45 / 08.08.06
I see the argument, Haus, but it seems insufficient to me. The thread is a bit broader than the title suggests, but not much and not in any unexpected way, and changing the title seems like a big thing to me. So I'd leave it, unless flyboy feels like changing it.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
15:37 / 08.08.06
Anyone else read Monbiot's article in today's Guardian, about the likelihood of this action having been planned for over two years? Felt his conclusions were well-judged and argued with almost no hysterics (which is unusual for the man, in my opinion), but can't see much supporting evidence for what he claims is the basis of his argument (very few citations, which is always worrying).

It shocks me a little to keep reading assertions on this thread that Hezbollah started this war when the only way to plausibly account for the events of the last month is advance preparation by the IDF. I've already advanced theories about what is at stake a couple of pages back, but here is a more educated 'thought experiment'.... Below is a really clumsy version:

Juan Cole's thesis involves believing in peak oil, which hypothesises that global oil and gas supplies are going to run out over the next 20 years. Iran, however, is sitting on a huge cahe of both. Strategically, the US would like control of Iran, to prevent Iran from trading its oil and gas with China (the big new player in crude oil), and also to have political control of the world's biggest supply. It's important, also that, this happens before Iran acquires a nuclear weapon, as that will mean the US cannot invade. Since the US is convinced that Hezbollah are controlled by Iran, via Syria, knocking out Lebanon/Hezbollah is perceived as removing Iran's 'second bodyguard'. Removing Hezbollah as a threat would also free up Israel to devote more military resources to future conflicts with Iran/Syria, when they happen.

So, of course it's been planned. How could it not be?

And if someone wants to talk about 'Hezbollah terrorism', start a new thread. Please don't change the title or summary of this one.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:07 / 08.08.06
Actually, there's already a thread on religous fanaticism / terrorism that would be a proper venue for discussing Hezbollah terrorism.

It's important, also that, this happens before Iran acquires a nuclear weapon, as that will mean the US cannot invade

Well, they could, since it's unlikely Iran would develop a deployment system capable of hitting the US (i.e. , an intercontinental missile), but they would have to be willing to sacrtifice their regional ally, Israel, which Iran would certaily try to nuke, if ever they get invaded*. And that would mean Israel is making its push now exactly to prevent such scenario. But I only especulate.

Anyway, what I really want is to make a somewhat winky comment: "300 posts, and almost a month later, and things only seem to get worse. Frustrating..."

*and, historically speaking, this Persian region was never succesfully invaded in what? 4 thousand years? The local geography is on the hometeam side, with all those mountains and hills and desertic areas. Any invasion of Iran would have to rely on some very heavy bombing (America's favourite kind of war)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:09 / 08.08.06
Actually, there's already a thread on religous fanaticism / terrorism that would be a proper venue for discussing Hezbollah terrorism.

You'd think, wouldn't you? However, as mentioned above, it turns out that a surprisingly small number of people identified by Hizbollah as martyrs appeared to be members of radical Islamic groups. Have a look at the interview with Robert Pape linked to above, DM. It's interesting stuff.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:22 / 08.08.06
Acutally, no, but I will. I noticed someone said most suicide bombers were not actually religious fanatics, only people really pissed off that their lands were occupied, but I forgot about it when I posted. Apologies...
 
 
Mistoffelees
22:09 / 08.08.06
Well, they could, since it's unlikely Iran would develop a deployment system capable of hitting the US...

With half a million US soldiers and lots of US military hardware surrounding their country, the Iran army should have enough targets for their nuclear bombs.
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:40 / 08.08.06
Good point, but I still bet they would rather target Tel Aviv firts...
 
 
elene
10:19 / 09.08.06
I still bet they would rather target Tel Aviv firts

Given that no owner of nuclear weapons has ever used them on another owner of nuclear weapons, for obvious reasons, why, Dead Megatron?

Iran wants to eliminate the Zionist regime in Palestine, not to turn the place into a radioactive wasteland. If Iran had nuclear weapons, Israel would no longer have a monopoly of them. Israel would be forced to negotiate and it would probably be doomed by it's own demographics in the relatively short term in consequence. No nuclear weapons are used, Iran wins and Iran is pretty much militarily invincible to boot.

As far as actually attacking Israel with nuclear weapons is concerned, I think Iran would want to make very sure that no one used a nuclear weapon on Israel, as we all already do, because Iran would certainly be the prime target for any retaliation.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:53 / 09.08.06
It shocks me a little to keep reading assertions on this thread that Hezbollah started this war when the only way to plausibly account for the events of the last month is advance preparation by the IDF.

And it disappoints me that so many intelligent people seem to cling to this idea that this war was only started a month or so ago. This is just the latest skirmish, and probably the most high-profile and bloody one since 2000. Rockets, small air strikes, flyovers and ground incursions have been happening for years, and all the time. The last time Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers was only two years ago. None of this is anything new, it's just that this is the first time for a good few years that Israel has decided to take a significant action rather than simply reacting. A lot of people are of the opinion that what the IDF is doing is disproportionate. Well, of course it is - if it's a reaction to Hezbollah's piecemeal 'rockets and kidnappings' strategy. If, on the other hand, it's a premeditated action, then proportionality doesn't come into it. At that point, you have to look beyond issues of tit-for-tat cause and effect ("It's six of one and half a dozen of the other! Now I want you two to shake hands and apologise!") and look at what the goal of this particular Israeli offensive might be.

Incidentally, I'm a little unclear over whether this is actually a war? If it is, then surely the bombing of civilian targets and infrastructure is fairly standard practice? The Geneva Convention explicitly prohibits collective punishment, but I think that only applies to foreign occupiers of the nation in question being punished...

Not that it should make much difference, I suppose. The US never stopped bombing Iraq between Gulf Wars, and as Israel have already pointed out, NATO bombed the fuck out of the former Yugoslavia in 1999, including all manner of civilian targets and infrastructure. These are hardly the only examples of attacks on civilian targets by national and international forces, even over the last ten years. So what's the diference, exactly?

Although I'm no apologist for the crimes of the IDF over the last fuck-knows-how-long, it does strike me that there's a tendency amongst certain commentators in the West to constantly cast Israel as 'the bad guys', hand in glove with the US, and to the exclusion of anyone or anything else. It seems to me that this is precisely the kind of thinking that doesn't solve international political/military crises with a huge and tangled history of tit-for-tat violence. The culture of blame is wonderful for getting some of that White Hot Rage off your chest, but not really particularly productive, whether you're a diplomat struggling to solve the problems in the region or a member of an online bulletin board involved in a debate on the problem in the region.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:44 / 09.08.06
Incidentally, I'm a little unclear over whether this is actually a war?

I think that generally wars need a nation on either side. Correctly, we might describe it as a series of exchanges of fire in which Israeli and Hizbollah forces intermittently engage each other and largely fire past each other at the civilian populations of Israel and thhe Lebanon.
 
 
Dead Megatron
11:57 / 09.08.06
Given that no owner of nuclear weapons has ever used them on another owner of nuclear weapons, for obvious reasons, why, Dead Megatron?

Well, for symbolical reason, mostly. Being Israel largest citym it would be like attacking "the heart of the enemy" and all that. An act that would carry enormous power amongst those who hate Israel. No one will nuke Jerusalem, that's fo'sure...

Iran wants to eliminate the Zionist regime in Palestine, not to turn the place into a radioactive wasteland. If Iran had nuclear weapons, Israel would no longer have a monopoly of them. Israel would be forced to negotiate and it would probably be doomed by it's own demographics in the relatively short term in consequence. No nuclear weapons are used, Iran wins and Iran is pretty much militarily invincible to boot.

As far as actually attacking Israel with nuclear weapons is concerned, I think Iran would want to make very sure that no one used a nuclear weapon on Israel, as we all already do, because Iran would certainly be the prime target for any retaliation.


Oh, yeah, of course. I was speaking strictly under the hypothesis that a all-out Israel-USA-Syria-Iran war already on and hot. They would most probably use the nuke as leverage, starting a new Cold War, sort of...
 
 
elene
12:13 / 09.08.06
I was speaking strictly under the hypothesis that a all-out Israel-USA-Syria-Iran war already on and hot.

Oh, I see. I wouldn't worry too much about that though. Once Iran has nuclear weapons there’ll be no such war. Actually, I doubt there’ll be much of a cold war either because we’re going to need their oil, assuming we can afford it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:34 / 09.08.06
It shocks me a little to keep reading assertions on this thread that Hezbollah started this war when the only way to plausibly account for the events of the last month is advance preparation by the IDF.

And it disappoints me that so many intelligent people seem to cling to this idea that this war was only started a month or so ago. This is just the latest skirmish, and probably the most high-profile and bloody one since 2000.

I think we can probably reconcile these viewpoints. Hostilities have been ongoing since the withdrawal of troops. Generally, this conflict has been kept at a reasonably low level, has been concentrated on the borders between Lebanon and Israel, and has involved small numbers of troops. One can trace a line of "conflict over the border with Lebanon" from 2000 to the present day. One can also, however, point out that what is happening currently, involving as it does the positioning of thousands of Israeli troops over the border into Lebanon, extensive air strkes and the displacement of an estimated million Lebanese civilians, as a new and entirely different phase in the military engagement between Hizbollah and Israel, and one in which the consequences for Lebanon are far greater and graver, along with the potentiial political implications across the Middle East. Given that the action by Hizbollah was a tit, it presumably expected a tat which would have been far less escalated than this - either an attempt to recover the soldiers by intelligent extraction or a prisoner exchange. Thus, this response by the rules of the previous engagement was disproportionate, whether premeditated or not.

How's that?
 
 
grant
14:34 / 09.08.06
New development in the "How far could they go?" front.

Jerusalem Post reports on a report from the Saudi press:

Report: US sailor spied for Israel
By DAVID KEYES

A US Navy sailor, Ariel J. Weinmann, is suspected of spying for Israel and has been held in prison for four months, according to an article published Monday in the Saudi daily Al-Watan. It reported that Weinmann is being held at a military base in Virginia on suspicion of espionage and desertion.

According to the navy, Weinmann was apprehended on March 26 "after it was learned that he had been listed as a deserter by his command." Though initial information released by the navy makes no mention of it, Al-Watan reported that he was returning from an undisclosed "foreign country." American sources close to the Defense Department told Al-Watan that Israel was the country in question.

...The veracity of Al-Watan's claim that Weinmann is suspected of spying for Israel remains in question, and military and Pentagon spokesmen are remaining tightlipped. A public affairs officer at the Office of Naval Intelligence told the Post that he was unaware of the allegations against Weinmann.

Al-Watan speculated that if Weinmann spied on behalf of the Mossad, it would be the biggest espionage case since Jonathan Pollard's arrest. Pollard, who worked as a civilian intelligence analyst for the US Navy, was caught in 1985 and convicted of spying for Israel. He is currently serving a life sentence in the US.


----

I'm not sure the current conflict with Lebanon was as much premeditated as prepared for, probably with a certain amount of eagerness in some quarters. Just a guess on my part, and it's a subtle distinction at any rate. There's always some government office somewhere filled with people going "what if..." - in D.C., I'm sure there are plans for what to do if Canada invades (I think I've actually read these on the net) and all that. The plan itself seems a little sketchy in this case, but the fact that it exists shouldn't really be a surprise.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
15:42 / 09.08.06
I think we can probably reconcile these viewpoints... this response by the rules of the previous engagement was disproportionate, whether premeditated or not.

How's that?


But that's my point (please excuse my ellipsitastical quote of your post, Haus). If you accept that this action was premeditated - ie, not a reaction to Hezbollah's kidnapping of soldiers as advertised, but something the IDF were just waiting to instigate regardless - then it's not part of the previous rules of engagement (in so far as they can actually be said to exist at all). It's designed to trump them, so to speak. So to accept the one premise (premeditation) is to disqualify the other (disproportionality).

Personally, I prefer grant's replacement of 'premeditation' with 'preparation' - it seems to make more sense that the only thing actually planned was targetting and deployment. That premise also seems supported by the haphazard responses from the Israeli government since the conflict escalated. While the air strikes and troop deployment may have been planned in advance, the timing seems to have been very much off the cuff, and there seems to have been very little in the way of forward thought about the political ramifications or the kind of pressure they might be under. But maybe that's just me.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:31 / 09.08.06
OK, I think I get that. So, if this is a wholly new thing - that is, the kidnapping of two soldiers was the final action in the previous 2000-2006 period, and the Israeli attack was the first action in the period 2006-, then clearly it is not a disproportionate response, because it is not a response per se. However, if that's the case, we can still, presumably, usefully say that this action is out of all proportion to what was expected by way of reaction, that is what was expected by Hizbollah, the Lebanese government, the international community and so on? Hence everyone being caught rather on the hop?

Whether prepared for or premeditated, however, it does seem that Israel has made a bit of a hames of the while thing, which is a pity, but probably right now more of a pity for the Lebanese civilians than anyone else...
 
  

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