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Israeli terrorism in Lebanon

 
  

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bacon
22:45 / 27.07.06
i disagree with the last two sentences of points one through three
 
 
bacon
22:56 / 27.07.06
and so i elaborate!

1. "Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, could stop Hezbollah's rockets tomorrow. He hasn't."

ahamadinejad is the president of iran, he's not allowed to make decisions, he's informed of his decisions

2. "Bush could stop Olmert tomorrow. He hasn't.

bush is the president of the united states, he's not smart enough to be allowed to make decisions, he's informed of his decisions

3. "King Abdullah could stop these guys tomorrow. He hasn't."

i think this guy is having troubles controlling his own populace, he's only the face of one of many enablers

disagreement lodged!

sorry
 
 
Disco is My Class War
06:36 / 28.07.06
Yeah, this whole 'So and so could stop these guys tomorrow' schtick is completely unconvincing. Hezbollah is not controlled by Iran or Syria. Hezbollah buys its arms from Syria, and possibly Iran, yes, but that is an economic exchange, it's not about control.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
09:43 / 28.07.06
hummm... Not sure about the logic being applied here So then I'd ask whether Israel's reinvasion is merely a local act of colonialism or something closer to belonging to the more general resurgence of imperialism. It really appears that Israel is functioning as a client state of the neo-cons (of the US) using it to open a new front in it's paranoid and apocylyptic fight for civilization and democracy ? Any bets on the USA attacking Syria and Iran if Israel continues to 'lose' this classic colonial action...

The clash of civilizations may be a paranoid right wing phantasy but it seems to be killing an awful lot of people...
 
 
redtara
10:14 / 28.07.06
This is the number of the foreign office switch board. If you ask for Margaret Becket's office they will put you through to someone who will take a message for her.

020 7270 3000

If you think that;-

indescrimanate bombing of civilian targets is deeply immoral regardless of who did what to who when

it is unacceptable for 1/3 of the dead in a conflict with terrorists to be children,

when only two gov. in the whole world are resisting a call for ceasefire something is wrong with that possition,

sitting around blaming other governments for not reigning in Hezbollah while families burn will leave us with a world of ashes,

call!

I have no illusions about the incredible cynicism of the uk gov. but this can't make matters worse. Tell a friend, you never know. Ever hopeful, Red.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
10:17 / 28.07.06
If you accept that Israel is functioning as a colonial power in the region (as I do).... Then let me just say unambiguously that a bullet or missle fired by Israel in this conflict is a very different moral act than one fired by hizbullah... The moral posturing that tries to insist that israel has the right to violence because hizbullah exists is incorrect.

"Neocolonialists think that there are some good colonialists and some very wicked ones, and that it is th fault of the latter that the siruation of the colonies has deteriorated... it is not true that there are some very good colonialists and others who are wicked there are just colonialists and that is it...." (Sartre). Elsewhere he continues by legitimating the use of anti-colonial violence.... He is correct...
 
 
Dead Megatron
11:16 / 28.07.06
"Still, it is the primary right of men to die and kill for the land they live in, and to punish with exceptional severity all member of their own race who have warmed their hands at the invader's hearth"

Winston Churchill, in A History of The English-Speaking Peoples

(He was talking about the keltic resistance to Roman invasion by "acts of terrorism", btw)
 
 
Disco is My Class War
13:23 / 28.07.06
It's good to remember here that the Israelis possessed the lands that make up the 'Jewish homeland' not only by being gifted with it by the British, who had colonised Palestine previously, but by acts that would be considered as terrorism if the political terrain were any different. Some information on Zionist 'terrorist' groups Hagana, Irgun and the Stern Gang here. That's not to say that other, differently minded Zionists were occupied with arguing for Jewish settlement of Palestine through other means at the same time, but it also indicates that the formation of Israel was not, in any way, representable as legitimate. So it really doesn't wash that contemporary Israel is fighting for sovereignty of its own lands. I think Israel is an imperial client state of the US -- at least, that is the function of Israeli aggression, despite the religious angle.
 
 
Mistoffelees
14:38 / 28.07.06
The Israelis today shot at a help convoi. The convoi brought old and sick people out of cut off lebanon villages. A rocket hit the car of a german newsteam, injuring five people.

At the same time, the israeli government says, our government agrees with their actions, even though our foreign minister clarified, that that is definitely not true.

If any other country would act like this, the USA would be up in arms. Instead they have been increasing their sales of arms and ammuntions to the Israeli forces in the last couple of days.

The Iran dictator meanwhile probably can´t believe his luck. Nobody is interested in his scientists being busy with his nuclear devices anymore, and he´s surely busy highfiving his allies.
 
 
sleazenation
14:53 / 28.07.06
Which Iran dictator are you referring to Mistoffelees? If you mean Ahmadinejad, he was elected.
 
 
Char Aina
16:43 / 28.07.06
mister disco, have you read that link?
all of it, i mean?
is there any reason why you didnt mention how fucked in the head it seems?
 
 
Triumvir
16:46 / 28.07.06
Mister Disco:

The website you linked to as "proof" of your claim seemed quite suspect to me. Browsing the main page, "more israeli savegry" articles first popped out at me. OK, so maybe this is just a stilted news page. Then I came upon "Zionist plot to take over america nearly complete." Alllrrriiggghhttt. Credibility = evaporating. However, it was when I saw this little gem that I realied just what a crackpot site you were linking us to: "UFO's filmed in formation above santa monica." nfs said bout that.

Post WWII the British established a Jewish state in the British palestine mandate. Which was their legal possesion. The international community -- both the United States as well as the Soviet Union, promptly recognised the new state. So, even if your statements about Jewish terrorist groups are correct, it was their right to protect their state, since it had already been recognized as a legitimate state.
 
 
elene
16:54 / 28.07.06
Which was their legal possesion.

Like Ireland had been too until some forty years earlier, Triumvir?
 
 
bacon
17:07 / 28.07.06
wouldn't it have been rich if they'd given ireland to the jews
 
 
elene
17:26 / 28.07.06
grrrr!
 
 
Mistoffelees
17:50 / 28.07.06
Which Iran dictator are you referring to Mistoffelees? If you mean Ahmadinejad, he was elected.

Haha, after putting all possible competitors under arrest?
 
 
elene
18:12 / 28.07.06
Oh, it’s not that simple at all, Mistoffelees, though it’s certainly not democratic either.
 
 
sleazenation
19:14 / 28.07.06
Not at all Mistoffelees, as we have seen around, especially in the UK and the US, there are many ways to influence elections.

Iran is indeed a democracy, or perhaps that should say it has a democractic element to it. The office of president is subserviant only to the theocratic office of supreme leader. It is here that the true power lies. The previous Iranian President, Khatami was largely brought in on a reform platform of improving the status of women and responding to the demands of the young generation in Iran. Unfortunately his efforts were largely lstifled by more conservative religious elements, chief amonst which is the Supreme Leader.

Iranian PMs can only serve two consecutive terms (but are able to stand again after someone else has had a go at being president). At the last election, Khatami was no longer elegable to stand. The smart money was on his predecessor, Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, to return to office, but Rafsanjani's attempt to portray himself as a reformer failed and his opponent racked up a surprise win on aa populist platform of putting more money from oil revenue on the tables of ordinary voters. He also campaigned on an actively anti-American ticket.

There was no need to put 'all possible competitors under arrest' mainly because all election candidates are subject to vetting on the subject of religious ideaology by the Guardians of the Revolution, IIRC. Only candidates that they approve are eleigable to stand for election. - this is hardly perfect, but then again what democracy is?

There is a thread for discussing the problems with various forms of democracy here...
 
 
Dragon
23:31 / 28.07.06
It is morally indefensible to retaliate against an organization like Hezbollah merely for the abduction of a couple of soldiers. That Israel attacked Hezbollah only for that, proves Israel is a terrorist organzation. Therefore Israel deserves the hundreds of missiles fired from Lebanon. Most of the world is surely behind Hezbollah for giving Israel what it deserves. How dare Israel attack railroads and bridges which could be used to transport the really big missiles coming from Syria. Hezbollah is in a sovereign nation which deserves the right to self defence. That innocent people in Lebanon were killed is unconscionable.
 
 
bacon
23:55 / 28.07.06
sarcasm's not really called for given the seriousness of this situation
 
 
Disco is My Class War
03:28 / 29.07.06
Triumvir, someone else pointed out that the website I cited is totally dodgy, and I have to agree. I did check to see if it was anti-semitic, and in my less than thorough checkings, didn't find anything that stood out. However, the site is evidently not the work of a sane person. Sorry about that. I think, though, that despite the crank element, the factual information about Irgun and the Stern Gang is quite reliable. So, maybe I can provide some other sources of information:

Wikipedia article on Irgun, one of the militarised Zionist groups operating in the 30's and 40's. (The Wikipedia article acknowledges its neutrality is disputed, but I doubt you'd find any information about Zionist terrorist groups that isn't.)

Wikipedia article on the Lehi Group, otherwise known as the Stern Gang.

Wikipedia article on the Haganah, the military group that protected Jewish settlements in the British Mandate of Palestine until 1948. Haganah split and its more right-wing elements formed Irgun, as the article will tell you.

Post WWII the British established a Jewish state in the British palestine mandate. Which was their legal possesion.

Please tell me how the British had sovereignty over Palestine to establish the state of Israel in the first place? It couldn't have been colonial imperialism, could it? Why yes, Virginia, it was! Given that history, the whole concept of legal possession wears thin. Unless you're of the 'possession is nine tenths of the law' school, like pretty much every imperial power of the last 500 years -- including the US and almost every nation in the UN with any political power.

Also, I think you'll find that Irgun and the Stern Gang were active long before 1948, when the British established Israel as a state. So it doesn't wash that they were simply trying to protect the formation of a state that was already in existence.
 
 
sleazenation
08:32 / 29.07.06
I was under the impression that The mandate of Palestine was made to the British by the League of Nations after Empire, Commonwealth and Arab forces defeated the Ottomans as part of the First World War. As such I don't think colonial imperialism quite covers it.
 
 
sleazenation
12:28 / 29.07.06
Of course, you could argue that the Sykes-Picot Agreement was nothing short of colonialism, and colonialism that conflicted with the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence ...
 
 
Quantum
12:54 / 29.07.06
It is morally indefensible to retaliate against an organization like Hezbollah merely for the abduction of a couple of soldiers.
Do you really think the kidnapping was the cause of this and the reason for Israeli aggression?
That Israel attacked Hezbollah only for that, proves Israel is a terrorist organzation.
The bombing of civilian targets, neutral observers and medicalpersonnel proves they are a terrorist organisation.
Therefore Israel deserves the hundreds of missiles fired from Lebanon.
Of course they don't and the entire world is asking both sides to stop the bombing.
Most of the world is surely behind Hezbollah for giving Israel what it deserves.
Most of the world is asking both sides to stop bombing.
How dare Israel attack railroads and bridges which could be used to transport the really big missiles coming from Syria.
By that rationale they should also be destroying hospitals which could be used to heal Hezbollah terrorists, and houses they could use for shelter, nurseries which could be used to breed more terrorists and farms which could provide them food.
Hezbollah is in a sovereign nation which deserves the right to self defence.
Still assuming you were being sarcastic, presumably you are saying that Lebanon *doesn't* deserve the right to self defence?
That innocent people in Lebanon were killed is unconscionable.
And there you are saying civilian casualties are perfectly acceptable?

Did you see the rather telling photograph of the red cross ambulance with a precision guided missile hole in the centre of the cross, as though it were a handy target? Maybe you feel Israel is justified in killing medical personnel treating civilians and refugees?
 
 
bacon
21:58 / 29.07.06
nobody died in that attack despite there being 4 or 5 people in and around that truck, what the hell is that?
 
 
Francine I
00:42 / 30.07.06
I think this might be salient to those focusing on theories of Iranian endorsement and/or support: Iran stops students travelling to join Hizbollah.
 
 
Francine I
00:52 / 30.07.06
Dragon: "It is morally indefensible to retaliate against an organization like Hezbollah merely for the abduction of a couple of soldiers. That Israel attacked Hezbollah only for that, proves Israel is a terrorist organzation. Therefore Israel deserves the hundreds of missiles fired from Lebanon. Most of the world is surely behind Hezbollah for giving Israel what it deserves. How dare Israel attack railroads and bridges which could be used to transport the really big missiles coming from Syria. Hezbollah is in a sovereign nation which deserves the right to self defence. That innocent people in Lebanon were killed is unconscionable."

Care to contribute something above and beyond rank sarcasm?
 
 
Dragon
01:31 / 30.07.06
Disco, does the Sykes-Picot Agreement help?
 
 
Dragon
02:20 / 30.07.06
I think innocent people are always killed or hurt during conflict. But, in my mind I do perceive a tilt towards the Hezbollah side. Many mentions are made about civilians killed or injured on the Lebanese side, with little or no mention of people being killed on the Israeli side by crude missiles.

I don't see Hezbollah as being representative of Lebanon, and I see that country as suffering unnecessarily because of it. I also think there may be more citizens killed because of the guerilla warefare style of Hezbollah in which they seek refuge within communities and without uniforms.

In short, I don't see any killing of citizens as "acceptable." At the same time, I think it is unavoidable.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:04 / 30.07.06
Many mentions are made about civilians killed or injured on the Lebanese side, with little or no mention of people being killed on the Israeli side by crude missiles.

Thats an interesting point, because it raises the question of how much time should be spent on reporting deaths. For instance, Dragon, do you think it is defensible to spend an equal amount of time on each casualty (more or less) regardless of which side they are on? Or do you think it is better to spend more time on each Israeli death? Now, having answered that, and having made a quick reference to casualty figures, do you still see the same bias?
 
 
elene
11:36 / 30.07.06
You're hearing more about the Lebanese than Israeli civilian casualties, Dragon, because there are about twenty times as many of them. There is little comparison between the destructive power of the weapons employed by the IDF and Hezbollah.

Hezbollah represents perhaps 40% of the Lebanese population, and a large majority in South Lebanon, but since the latest Israeli atrocity at Qana last night, coming on top of all the previous punishment, it probably has the temporary support of some 90% of the Lebanese.

Hezbollah is not hiding among the people. This is how they are doing it. They are launching mainly from isolated valleys with lots of cover and they are fighting in border towns like Bint Jbeil that have already been bombed flat by the IDF. The IDF is employing terror, but it’s employing it very poorly.

Finally, this conflict was anything but unavoidable and therefore so are the hundreds of civilians deaths.
 
 
Quantum
13:00 / 30.07.06
I just got back from a protest march, anybody else protesting? Met a nice American lady who said she heard loads of noise outside and thought 'Ooh, I hope that's about the war!' and came and joined in.
One interesting aspect, some of the call and response was quite telling. One guy with a megaphone would go 'Free, free, Palesteine' or '..Lebanon' and everyone joined in, ditto the stop the bombs stuff, but at one point it went like this;

What do we want? *CEASEFIRE!* When do we want it? *NOW!*
Victory to Hizbollah, victory to Hamas! *dead silence from the crowd*,
What do we want? *CEASEFIRE!* When do we want it? *NOW!*

People aren't anti-Israel and pro-Hezbollah, they're anti-war. At least, the people who felt strongly enough to go out and protest today were.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:00 / 30.07.06
I'm considering going to the London demo on 5th August. Is anyone going to go along?
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
16:09 / 30.07.06
Triumvir, someone else pointed out that the website I cited is totally dodgy, and I have to agree. I did check to see if it was anti-semitic, and in my less than thorough checkings, didn't find anything that stood out.

Um, what about this?

Could this sort of actions by the Jews be the reason they have been run out of every country on earth, except the United States, and there is not much doubt that one day America will realize just how much the Jews despise and loth them; and they too will rise up and drive them out.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
16:20 / 30.07.06
On the other hand, a major figure in the BNP has just come out strongly in favour of Israel.

This hasn't been mentioned on any of those blogs who are so fond of accusing people who are opposed to this attack of being fascists %surprisingly enough%.
 
  

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