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I Said A Dumb Thing About Pop Music

 
  

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MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
16:02 / 10.07.06
Okay, so I was up early, and I'm kinda stupid, and in response to a question ("what do people mean when they say "pop"") in the Music Questions thread, I posted this:

I think most people's understanding of pop music, and in terms of Jeremiah's question, doesn't include Mozart or Strapping Young Lad. It's music that is created for mass consumption along a kind of "light bouncy rock" pattern. Or "blandly pleasant," if you want a harsher description.

"Pop" is, from an Eastern/Central Canadian former radio station manager's perspective, the default category for any music that isn't forcefully placing itself into another genre strongly enough to be that other genre.

Justin Timberlake and Britney Spears and Hillary Duff and Lindsay Lohan are all "pop," because they don't rock enough to be "rock" and aren't jazzy enough to be "jazz" and certainly not classical enough to be "classical." You could say that Metallica has recorded popular songs, but if you said "what kind of band is Metallica," I'd say "hard rock" or "light metal" rather than "pop." If you asked about the Pet Shop Boys, I'd say "electronic pop," because they're keen on the synthesizers and the keyboards but are essentially recording "pop" music. Shania Twain I'd call "country pop," because she's found in the "country" section of the music store and throws some steel guitar in there but is essentially not very "country" when you actually listen to the songs.

"Pop" also equals "inconsequential sell-outs" in the minds of avid fans of a particular genre. Being someone that used to be semi-Goth and listened to a lot of Industrial music, "oh, they've gone 'pop'" was a popular disparagement of a band that had gotten some sort of mainstream success and was therefore no longer cool. Skinny Puppy, Ministry and Nine Inch Nails were oft dismissed as having "gone pop."

As a kind of default "non-category," pop is also subject to sort of retro-reclassification. Stuff that is pop may not stay pop. A lot of music that was once created to fill that "blandly pleasant" niche... Bing Crosby springs to mind... is not "pop" any more and has been swallowed by a larger genre like jazz. So a contemporary "pop" group now, in twenty years, might slide into "rock" or a genre subtype that hasn't been created yet. New Order, f'r'instance, were generally considered straight "pop" when they were new, but have been retro-classified as "electronic," both because of the later direction the band took and how "pop" music keeps sliding around and getting re-mapped.

Whew. Sorry about the length there. This was the subject of much debate among programmers when I was the manager of a community radio station, so it's something I can go on about for ages.


Having read this thread since then, I can see there are a lot of people here who care a lot about pop and would find the above response terribly stupid and horribly wrong.

But rather than derail the Stupid Music Questions (or, in my case, Stupid Music Statements) thread, I'm reposting my dumbassery here, in hopes of (a) not turning the questions thread into a debate over what "pop" does and doesn't mean, and (b) having a debate over what "pop" does and doesn't mean.

So: fire away. I'll admit that "blandly inoffensive" was knee-jerking on my part, but what is pop, then, if not "the genre that isn't other genres"?
 
 
Jack Fear
16:58 / 10.07.06
Very simply: the question itself reveals the extent of the error.

"Pop" is not a genre at all; it is a demographic descriptor.

Popular music is music that people listen to for pleasure. All the genres you're talking about are subsets of that umbrella term.
 
 
Char Aina
17:11 / 10.07.06
i think the lad might have been referring to the common usage of the term, pop as a genre.
i have certainly heard it used that way.

do think the term has no validity other than to describe popularity?
 
 
haus of fraser
17:42 / 10.07.06
your both right - but as Toksik says the term is used to refer to a type of music as well.

If something has a poppy feel I always see it as being more catchy- or maybe a more polished production sound.

There are countless underground bands that have recorded their breakthrough albums with a more radio friendly edge- I guess this to me is pop meaning both a type of music and a style of music destined for radio/ MTV play and a popular audience.

I suppose the reason that certain bands could be seen as anti-pop is that they don't strive for popular success or their outlook of strict punk rules conflicts with selling out to the man.. Its certainly something that got under Kurt Cobains skin...

more later i've gotta get outs of work
 
 
Jack Fear
17:44 / 10.07.06
People say all sorts of dumb shit, toksik. Most people think "Immaculate Conception" means the same thing as "virgin birth." Doesn't make it so.

"Pop" is, obviously, a subset of the overall medium "music," but it's a broad church. Reaching for analogies

"pop" : music :: "Hollywood" : film

Given that "Hollywood" encompasses Taxi Driver and Blue Velvet along with Titanic and Ace Ventura: Pet Detective, and that "pop" covers Franks Sinatra and Zappa along with Nellys both Furtado and surnameless, I would argue that the quality and affect of works within the subset are so broad as to render any attempt to classify the subset as an entity in itself almost useless.

And so it is. "Pop" is really only useful as a term of opposition, in defining what something isn't: ritual music, academic music, experimental music whose primary goal is not pleasure.

Many critics, listeners and bands use "pop" primarily as a term of disparagement, in the belief that the music that they enjoy or make is somehow above such base goals as actual enjoyment.

These people are, of course, idiots, and as such their opinions may be safely dismissed without a second thought.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
18:09 / 10.07.06
Hmmm, but is that necessarily disparging.

The "pop music" thread linked to would seem to be about something a bit more specific then simply any band who sell records and have a sizeable fanbase.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
18:16 / 10.07.06
That's why reading it made me feel like crap -- I was being all flip and presumptuous about "pop" music and here there's this very long, enthusiastic thread about it.

That being said: whether people like it or not, it is used as a genre term. So I'll re-launch the question: When I hear somebody on the bus say "I just heard this great pop song," what are they talking about?

I understand that sometimes it's used as a negative adjective of dismissal by people who are too cool for school. I also understand Jack's "Hollywood" analogy above, but people almost never say "I saw a great Hollywood movie the other day!" They just say "I saw a great movie" or "I saw a great (identifiable genre) movie." So the analogy sort of fails when you use "pop" in a genre sense.

But when "pop music" is used as a genre term, either positively or neutrally, what is it describing? Because people do it. Like in the title of the thread I linked to.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:38 / 10.07.06
= "music I like"

unless you're a self-impressed lunkhead, in which case

= "music insufficiently important for me to deign to like"
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
23:29 / 10.07.06
Ooooooooooooooookay.

Anyone, er, else have a take on this?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:30 / 10.07.06
I think I'm wondering where "pure pop" comes into this - a genre, with recognisable artists (Big Star, Scritti Politti, Teenage Fanclub), which is often not popular in the sense of actually selling - but takes the aesthetic of popular music and extends it, even to the point of uncommerciality?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
00:45 / 11.07.06
Any good reading-up links, Haus? Googling the term, I get all sorts of record stores and labels and compilations... including Nick Lowe's "Jesus of Cool," which I have heard is excellent but never listened to.
 
 
Jack Fear
01:20 / 11.07.06
= music that sounds a bit like The Beatles, shurely?
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
06:35 / 11.07.06
Pop-as-a-genre is, with very few exceptions, lighthearted; that's about as far as I can take the description. Pop-in-the-more-general-sense need not be.
 
 
Jackie Susann
07:23 / 11.07.06
Jack, you're describing some of the things people use 'pop' to mean, but claiming pop is never a genre description just seems a little obtuse. I like pop music, but not all the music I like is pop, and I don't like all pop music. For example, I like Girls Aloud (pop), I like Three 6 Mafia (not pop), and I don't like the new Xtina single (pop). You could rigourously apply the standard you're claiming (in which case all the above are pop, I guess), but you're just stretching the term in a way that doesn't correspond to what the vast majority of people who use the term actually mean.

To put this another way, I love pop music, and I don't see any problem with Matt's post.
 
 
haus of fraser
08:32 / 11.07.06
Jack you seem to be taking the original definition of the term 'pop' meaning popular and not how it has evolved to refer to specific patterns and styles of music. Where would specific pieces of popular classical music fit in to this definition? Mozart, Beethoven etc- popular but certainly not 'pop'.

I guess the Beatles thing is more spot on . Pop music has evolved over the years to become a description of a type of popular music normally with a vocals and repeated phrases/ chord structure- made most popular by the beatles and 60's bands- so 'pure pop' refered to by haus is harking back to the origins of the genre....

(I'm not sure i entirely agree with all this but there's something in there...)

*Threadrot*
oh yeah Taxi driver was never a hollywood film- shot in NY and self financed- bought by the studios after festival success. Hollywood to me= LA based / studio funded pic.
 
 
kan
09:32 / 11.07.06
For me pop music is something with a hook, something catchy to keep it in my brain,
of course it doesn't have a monopoly on using hooks.

I think it's also music that's firmly linked to it's place in time, zeitgeisty? So when you hear it, it captures the mood of the moment and makes you feel, damn I'm glad to be alive right now/wow those were great times.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:38 / 11.07.06
I still stand by what I said here, which is that basically Jack F's right, but also not giving the whole picture, as Jackie S points out. There are, for me, two sense in which I use the word, although they're connected - and they're partly connected by the belief that wanting as many people as possible to enjoy your music is a good and noble aim.

(I don't think MattS deserves evisceration, though...)
 
 
doctorbeck
11:52 / 11.07.06
but when pop can include bohemian rhapsody, autobahn, crazy and most of the first velvet underground albumn the idea of pop as musical genre really creaks at the seems

it is one of those things, you know it when you here it but operationalising it is very difficult and as someone said earlier songs become or stop being pop retrospecively too, VU and Nico sounds like awesome perfect pop now, at the time, i can't imagine how strange it must have been, i wanna be your dog would be pop now, at the time, again so far out there as to be incomprehansible

was it the tin pan alley songwriters who had the rule of thumb that if the guys painting the building could sing along or whistle it it was a goer? i wonder if something similar counts for pop music now?
 
 
gridley
13:35 / 11.07.06
My friends and I used to argue about what pop music is and never got anywhere. Mostly because of what Flyboy is talking about: that we're talking about at least two different things. To my it breaks down like this:

There's the specific songwriting style Pop, which is mostly about songs with simple melodies, catchy hooks, and easilly singable choruses. Usually, there's lot of major chords.

Then there's more generic term Pop Music which is basically whatever the kids are currently listening to these days. Don't get me wrong, adults can listen to it to, but they're not the target audience. It provides a common language or reference point for teenagers. It's always new music, it's always on the radio stations, and you're more likely to buy it in the form of a single, than an album. Or at least, that's what I used to say before the internet. I'm wondering if this particular concept of Pop Music isn't mostly a marketing relic of the pre-internet days and if it might not slowly vanish with the new distribution capabilities of 21st century technology.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:46 / 11.07.06
To some extent I think it IS largely a marketing thingy... much as I usually disagree with where a lot of stuff is filed in record shops, having all the shelves just filled with "music" would be a little intimidating. Especially if I'm not looking for anything in particular.
 
 
grant
20:13 / 11.07.06
I think the narrower definition of pop is anything that's made to sell records, and which tends to have some of a certain set of elements in common:

* Verse/chorus structure (or: easily traceable to traditional European & African folk styles, without being anthropological)

* Simple, catchy melody line (pleasant, hummable sounds)

* Idea of band/image/name (non-musical factors) are important

* Consciousness of production techniques (as opposed to live performance/field recordings)

* Made by or for (or having the appearance of being made by or for) people between the ages of 12 and 25. Roughly. (The consumer demographic.)

* Appearing on the sales charts (which is kind of a circular thing -- it's pop because it's sold as pop, because pop sells).

There are probably a few more things that'd fit on that list, but the key things are probably the age targets and the verse/chorus structure. I think that's why Yes, for instance, never really was pop music (in the narrow sense), and why the Beatles are now "oldies" rather than "pop". Has a sell-by date.
 
 
Jackie Susann
21:28 / 11.07.06
* Idea of band/image/name (non-musical factors) are important

Um, for what music is that not the case?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:45 / 11.07.06
Ugh, I'm coming back round to the Jack Fear view, because otherwise even smart people end up saying really wrong-headed things.
 
 
Jack Fear
23:44 / 11.07.06
Join me, my son, and together we shall rule the galaxy!
 
 
Seth
00:19 / 12.07.06
For me it breaks down like this...

Popular music has already been pretty perfectly described by Jack Fear.

Pop music is exactly like it sounds: bubbly, fun, colourful, irrepressible, sweet, surprising, addictive, comes in lots of flavours, not to be taken too seriously (in that you wouldn't want to destroy the fun of it by theorising it all away) but is definitely something to be passionate about (like anything else that's hugely enjoyable).
 
 
Seth
00:25 / 12.07.06
The best possible response to good pop music: shake up the bottle and pop the cork!

Spray everyone you can. Watch them lick it off themselves and each other.

Preferably while dancing
 
 
grant
02:15 / 12.07.06

* Idea of band/image/name (non-musical factors) are important

Um, for what music is that not the case?


Well, I think there's always something to packaging, but... Mozart. He's easily repackaged. Is it Vladimir Horowitz or the Kronos Quartet? Is it an Itzakh Perlman evening with one Mozart piece on the program, or a bunch of different Mozart pieces by various performers?

Obviously, the name "Mozart" is going to sell a few records, but there's a kind of fluidity in the presentation that I don't think exists with Kelly Clarkson. When Perlman plays Mozart, he's playing Mozart; when Ted Leo plays "Since U Been Gone," he's covering Kelly Clarkson.

Maybe this would be better stated as a kind of conflating of composer & performance. In pop, a song is a kind of element of this thing that includes a look and an attitude and a specific, recorded moment in time. In classical works, I'm not sure I see that so much. Or in popular folk songs -- whose version of "Hush, Little Baby" is the "real" one?
 
 
Jack Fear
03:40 / 12.07.06
Obviously, the name "Mozart" is going to sell a few records, but there's a kind of fluidity in the presentation that I don't think exists with Kelly Clarkson. When Perlman plays Mozart, he's playing Mozart; when Ted Leo plays "Since U Been Gone," he's covering Kelly Clarkson.

See, I'm not sure about that distinction at all. Remember that the conflation of composer and performer is primarily a post-1960s phenomenon—through most of pop's history the professional, non-performing songwriter has been the secret hero and multiple versions have been the rule rather than the exception.

When Sinatra sings "I've Got You Under My Skin," it's a Sinatra song. But when Ella Fitzgerald sings "I've Got You Under My Skin," you're not thinking about how Frank sings it—it's an Ella song. At that moment, for the duration of that performance, it's an Ella song.

And when either of them sings it—indeed, when any of the hundreds and possibly thousands of artists who've recorded that song are doing their thing—you're not really thinking about Cole Porter and the force of his charisma, either. The song is a freestanding cultural object, a template, belonging to everyone and no one, always different, always the same.

And so it goes. There are tens of thousands of people for whom "Heartbeats" is a José González song. And are they wrong?
 
 
Jackie Susann
04:08 / 12.07.06
But Grant, and kinda talking out my arse here, surely there are expected modes of dress/appearance that go with classical and folk tunes? Like, I think most classical music is played by dudes in tuxes, and the CDs are marketed like they were played by dudes in tuxes. If a bunch of kids with mohawks and skateshoes played it, it would be a totally different experience. Right?
 
 
grant
12:05 / 12.07.06
Jack: And when either of them sings it—indeed, when any of the hundreds and possibly thousands of artists who've recorded that song are doing their thing—you're not really thinking about Cole Porter and the force of his charisma, either. The song is a freestanding cultural object, a template, belonging to everyone and no one, always different, always the same.

I kinda think the Great American Songbook has a special status. For one thing, it's a historical phenomenon -- I don't think there are songwriters working in the same mode today except as, essentially, museum curators or historians. It's pop music, but not in the narrow, genre sense. It *used* to be pop music in that sense.

I also think, within the period when that *was* pop (narrow), there was a sense of appropriation which implies an ownership of the song. Most of the songs came from the musical theater, were recontextualized/stolen/covered by a performer ("she made it her own") and then stolen/covered by the next one. There's a live Sinatra "Mac the Knife" where he sings about, essentially, how he's taking the song from Ella. He also had to be consciously thieving when he started singing "Luck, Be A Lady" -- the song that Sinatra's co-star Marlon Brando sang in Guys & Dolls. The song became Sinatra's -- imbued with the "Sinatra" brand.

Jackie Susann: But Grant, and kinda talking out my arse here, surely there are expected modes of dress/appearance that go with classical and folk tunes? Like, I think most classical music is played by dudes in tuxes, and the CDs are marketed like they were played by dudes in tuxes. If a bunch of kids with mohawks and skateshoes played it, it would be a totally different experience. Right?


With classical, yes, but with, ummm, "authentic" folk, no. Folk music, in the sense of "Hush, Little Baby," is sort of free of performers altogether -- songs that are handed down from parent to child, that exist in a world without stages or recordings, but just with people singing in bedrooms, on porches, wherever. The music everyone knows and sings -- without taking it out of its "proper" context (all that extra-musical stuff involving who's song it is, names, album art, where you hear it, etc.). The folk made by Woody Guthrie and Peter, Paul & Mary was taking that stuff and formalizing it into, well, something like folk-pop. Or pop folk.

Also, I think Mozart at the time it was new was being played by the equivalent of kids in mohawks and skate shoes. The tux thing seems to me to be a later stab at eliminating the performer as an element -- they're all identical. In a symphony orchestra, you tend to know only the conductor's name. I can't even name the members of Kronos (although they're stealing motifs from the pop genre and sticking them into classical performance because it's clever -- ditto Vanessa Mae, who's described as "classical pop"). Classical music does have pop stars, I suppose, but I don't think they function the same way as Green Day or Celine Dion.
 
 
Chiropteran
12:55 / 12.07.06
Also, I think Mozart at the time it was new was being played by the equivalent of kids in mohawks and skate shoes

Not really so much - Mozart's music (and Haydn's, etc.) was commisioned by the aristocracy and played by, more or less, studio musicians. It wasn't "popular" music, as such, except perhaps the operas. He was well-known, to be sure, and fashionable at points, but he wasn't the ruff new sound of the kid in the street.

Also, regarding * Made by or for (or having the appearance of being made by or for) people between the ages of 12 and 25. Roughly. (The consumer demographic.)

This hasn't always been the case - in the middle of the 20th century there was an awful lot of self-conscious Pop Music aimed at, well, the 12-25's parents. Mantovani, Percy Faith, Jackie Gleason, Ferrante & Teicher, Enoch Light's "Persuasive/Provocative/etc. Percussion" series, Herb Alpert, Frank Hunter, Les Baxter, Yma Sumac, all that Tiki-style "exotica" - in the 50's and well into the 60's, this "adult Pop" (later revived and repackaged as Space Age Pop/Exotica/Lounge) ran parallel to "teenage Pop" and rock, designed for and marketed to (at least notionally) sophisticated, with-it grownups who could afford their hi-fi fetish (seriously, Exotic Percussion has a small print double-foldout describing the hi-fi recording process in minute detail, with diagrams; this is typical of the genre). And most of it (Mantovani got pretty stale) was POP Music, in precisely the "pop the cork" way Seth describes.
 
 
grant
13:16 / 12.07.06
Hmm. I always thought of Mantovani and that as being more like, what... VH1, maybe? By which I mean recapitulating the pop of the previous decade. Aimed at an older generation, but doing it by aping the music they listened to when they were between 12 and 25. (I'm not sure if that's a real distinction, but maybe.)


I'd like to emphasize that I don't think all pop-genre music conforms to all the items on that list, just that if it meets most of them, most people are going to identify it as pop. Is a fuzzy set.

I should probably add:

* Done in 4/4 time with accents on the 2 and the 4. (Dave Matthews and Sting have violated this -- but country music is a lot more tolerant of waltz time)

* The hummable melody? It's carried by the vocals, not by other instruments.
 
 
Chiropteran
13:45 / 12.07.06
Hmm. I always thought of Mantovani and that as being more like, what... VH1, maybe? By which I mean recapitulating the pop of the previous decade.

Mantovani wasn't the best choice to head off the list, true, but the rest of the artists I named were definitely about being Something New, Never Possible Before Recent Advances In Hi-Fidelity. Even when they played "standards," the emphasis was on freshness of arrangement and the incorporation of new sounds (Brazilian percussion, theremin, prepared piano, panning and echo effects, bird sounds and thunder, wordless vocals, Magic Sounds of the Electric Organ). And, I have to say, the stuff still swings.

This is a bit of a tangent (and my current pet obsession), but I think that there is often an assumed (and sometimes very explicit) association of Pop music with Youth, but that hasn't always been the case.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:42 / 12.07.06
The hummable melody? It's carried by the vocals, not by other instruments.

Surf guitar, Duane Eddy, the Shadows, Boots Randolph, Al Hirt, the Tijuana Brass, Herbie Hancock's "Rockit," the original "Axel F," Eric Johnson, Jeff Beck, Candy Dulfer, Kenny G...
 
 
Chiropteran
16:48 / 12.07.06
Strong emphasis on melodic content, then - a "singable" line, even if it's not carried by the human voice. And not always, of course, but often.
 
  

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