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A Crazy World

 
  

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Ganesh
23:07 / 09.07.06
From what I remember you have said you are a teacher. Which is probably why your whole attitude is so fucking smug and paternalistic.

Way to stereotype. But then, I'm a shrink - why is probably why my whole attitude is so fucking smug and paternalistic.
 
 
Bruno
23:11 / 09.07.06
What specific questions would you like answering and what specific paradoxes do you think there are in my position?

Re-read the post in question and respond to the question marks.

And I believe your position leads logically to vanguardism, even if you don't see yourself as a vanguardist.

Like I said, agitation itself is vanguardist. Therefore so is Marx.

I don't claim to have some special kind of unique insight into the world, unshared by the proles

Are you saying that Marx (and therefore Marxists) didn't?
So he either thought (a) the proletariat already shared his insights, or (b) he didn't believe he had any unique insights.

I will reply to your other questions if you respond to these.

-bruno
 
 
Bruno
23:14 / 09.07.06
ganesh, funny how you chose to identify with that.
I am sure a great number of shrinks are smug and paternalistic, but i have no opinion of whether you are or not. Your questions in this thread have been reasonable.
What do you think about the post about craziness and mental illness then?
 
 
Bruno
23:41 / 09.07.06
It might be worth asking yourself why people are giving up on trying to interact with you as if you were an able and equal interlocutor. It may be a) because you are so far beyod their unenlightened foolishness that they cannot even comprehend your left-wing science

I never said or deliberately implied that.

or b) because you are endlessly recycling accusations of paradox and hypocrisy beyond the patience of a group of people

Yes endlessly. One accusation of paradox at Lamentation,
(who seems to be arguing that Marx didn't think he had insights that the working class didnt already have, and that agitation is not in itself vanguardist)

plus two accusations of hypocricy at you and Illmatic. Endless.

You want to try responding to the argument of why being a socialist is elitist Haus? You didn't quite get it the first time.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
00:47 / 10.07.06
I think you are misreading Marx if you think that he believed the working class had already achieved revolutionary consciousness. Which is what you seem to be implying?

No, I'm saying that he thought that revolutionary consciousness would be achieved naturally through a process of discussion and action, not through intervention from outside.

(He is fucking harsh isn’t he?)

Was that rhetorical? If not, yes, as I said.

It is a fact that the majority of people are reactionary and politically unaware. Otherwise why hasn't capitalism been overthrown?

Because they don't see the relevance of leftist rhetoric to their actual lives.

What about you?

My mother came over here from the US at 16 and worked as a secretary. (She and my father split up before I can remember). We weren't below the poverty line in my childhood, though we weren't well-off either. I've lived in working class areas all my life. I do have a university degree, so I'm certainly not presenting myself as some horny handed son of toil, but that is rare among the people I grew up with. I was the only person to do so in my family for years, although my mother recently went back and has now got a PHD, which naturally I'm really proud of her for. It is the case that if I hadn't been lucky enough to be born before grants were abolished, I doubt I'd have been able to go. Since then, I've worked in retail, mostly at minimum wage, though I am currently unemployed and trying to find work. (There's an added complication there because of me being dyspraxic which obviously somewhat limits what I can do). I joined the group Anti Fascist Action at 17, and was active for 10 years, and the theory side of things came later for me politically.

But how do you suggest this is going to take place? It would be stupid to accept any belief that the majority of people believe in simply to avoid being an elitist. Much of what Marx wrote is contrary to the beliefs of the vast majority of the world’s population, both then and now. Do you dispute that?

At the moment, it won't. We are not in any kind of pre revolutionary situation. So the goal for now has to be to become relevant again. Anything other than that is a pointless pipe dream.
 
 
Bruno
03:06 / 10.07.06
Lamentation:
I think we are generally in agreement about "what needs to be done". What's needed is a dialogue with people in general, working with social groups, organizations in ways that are in touch with reality & people’s needs, extroverted and not introverted as anti-establishment politics tend to be.
As for how that happens it is a case-by-case thing, it is different where i live, it is different where you live.
It is a tough job anywhere for sure.

At different points in my life I've engaged with different activism activities.
Some of them were totally alienated & insular, like anarchist blackblocs, it is just angry young heroics which the cops use to their own benefit, the public in general thinks you are just a hooligan, then you get teargassed and run away.
Others, like anti-war demos, were very big & public with lots of people, but nothing got done, it was just symbolic wanking.
Most recently I was involved in an anti-racist network.

Like I said, everyone is a star, if you remember, you can see it in their eyes, you know, we are all alive and breathing growing parts of the universe, everyone is special. But at the same time so many people I talk to and interact with, whenever politics gets brought up, they believe in political leaders and parties, they believe in a church, or they talk about money, dreaming about buying a better car. So many people are fucking obsessed with shopping, people can't stand still for 5 minutes without pulling out their cell phone and texting someone. A lot of people are hypocrites, smiling when they don’t mean it, hiding themselves from you because they are scared. A really large chunk of people are blatantly racist, classist, sexist, etc. But out of the rest of us who say we are not, there is so much unconscious shit going on.
Something that pisses me off is how people treat waiters, clerks, people in these positions, it is so demeaning. And its mostly subconscious I think. It is like the way rich people treat their servents, you know, and the rest of us are allowed to rent a servent when we go to a restaurant or shop, so we ape the way the rich treat the servents, this shit is internalized into so many people. And I catch myself doing it to sometimes. Even though I was a clerk for a while in college and I hated the way some customers thought they could treat me.


Very few things make me as depressed as the way parents treat their kids, when I see them together in public. It is twisted mental shit.

I mean if you really open yourself up to what is going on in the world, if you really imagine and empathize with the fucking catastrophes, war, living conditions, working conditions, it is so insane, you know it's difficult to deal with. So we shut ourselves up and don't deal with it. We are self-occluded from the large part of reality which is so unbearable. And this is I think a kind of mental illness, it is just like a schizophrenic who hides part of himself because he can't deal with them; these parts of himself hide underneath and affect him subconsciously. We are armored.

In my life I have been mentally unwell.
But the sickest shit is that someone will pay 50 000 dollars for a car or 500 euros for a handbag when people are dying of hunger, i mean it is depraved! And the people who cant afford the car, a lot of them feel jealous when the car drives past, they would like one too. I have known a lot of people like that. Or they buy a 5000 dollar car instead, these are the compensations that satisfy us. Yes yes we know Bruno, but we are not the sick ones, lets talk about it on barbelith.
The sickest shit is that people elect governments that send people to kill other people, buy weapons. Yes yes we know Bruno, but we are not the sick ones, let's talk about it on barbelith.

The thread was basically trying to point this out. We are sick. Everyone is. Right. I know I am pretty sick a lot of the time anyway. I can see it in most people, right. You can say I am just projecting it, I would reply it is something we all internalize; reality is more dialectic, we pull it in and project it back out, back and forth.
It is a real weight to bear if you know this about sickness, and if you forget for even a second that at the same time as being sick, everyone is a fucking special loving person trapped in a shit world, then you get arrogant and misanthropic - and i have been these things at points in my life, that is in itself a mental illness too. It's pretty sick if you take for granted that you are not sick, that you are not also a subconscious carrier of the things you think you disagree with.

My point in starting this thread was to acknowledge that there is a certain measure of elitism involved, when at first you realize how fucked up everyone is, including yourself, and you have to deny our mode of living, you have to say "i will not be the passive sick person society is trying to mold me into, i will try and make a difference"... I mean that is clearly what Marx did, the guy sacrificed his health and years of his life in trying to solve the riddle of history, how to change this shit. And what so many social activists and revolutionaries did all over the world. There is a certain measure of vanguardism involved. You have to push for change. And not everyone will do this. Many people never will.

So what can we do about it? Really that is the only question worth asking. It wasn’t what the thread was about at all but it is the only thing of any worth. All I can say is appraise the historical conditions, oppurtunities and needs and apply the correct force in the correct place, align yourself. Make yourself stronger, more able, help others do the same. Learn to communicate as well as you can, both listening and talking.
How do you spend your time? Bruno leaves.
 
 
illmatic
07:46 / 10.07.06
Firstly, me reacting to insults:

I’m “smug and paternalistic”!? From the man who said that “I possess an above average faculty for self-reflection and can thus work at transcending the limits of society” and “I take it for granted that the vast majority of people are politically reactionary, uncritical in their thinking, unaware of their needs or desires and generally estranged from life” – can you point to one place on the board where I’ve said something that offensive or "taken for granted" such huge generalisations?

Secondly, you missed the point in my last post. My position is that when you engaging in elitism such as the quotes above, you are actually alienating yourself from the “needs and desires” and the complexity and diversity of the ordinary working people. The monologue you’ve engaged in above – how do you know that everyone doesn’t go through a similar process and negotiates, to one degree or another, with the contradictions? To assume, as you have, that “most people are politically reactionary” is to cut yourself off from the huge range of opinion, diversity and activity that exists.

For instance:

The sickest shit is that people elect governments that send people to kill other people, buy weapons.

While this is true, again, you’re not allowing for complexity. Most people don’t vote specifically for wars and weapons manufacture – the war in Iraq is one of the most unpopular wars ever, and Tony Blair’s support of it has led to his parliamentary majority being slashed. Before it even started, we had one of the UK's biggest ever protests – I think this deserves more credit than “symbolic wanking”.

To take another tack, Chomsky consistently points out that the US populous are way to the left of their media on any number of issues – a huge proportion think the rich don’t pay enough tax, and would support the establishment of a free healthcare system, to pick just two examples. Assuming the population is per se “reactionary” occludes these kind of potentials. I think this also shows as lack of “historical consciousness” as well ie. a lack of awareness of broad based popular loci for change like the union movement.

So, while I don’t actually disagree with you here:

What's needed is a dialogue with people in general, working with social groups, organizations in ways that are in touch with reality & people’s needs, extroverted and not introverted as anti-establishment politics tend to be.

But I think the line you’ve been advancing prior to this – that most people actually are stupid, and deluded, is taking you in a contrary direction.

And I feel you do the same with your assumptions about Barbelith – you’re turning a diverse mass of people into a homogenous lump. How do you know that people aren’t doing political/activist work? Or - for instance - that they see their academic work as a continuation of related struggles? Why the hell do you think I’m working as a teacher? Do you really think I’m doing it for the money?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:48 / 10.07.06
I think you're doing it because you have a slave mentality.
 
 
Unconditional Love
08:24 / 10.07.06
Perhaps addressing the suffering in ourselves is the first step, if we take our suffering into a situation trying to help, how can we really help, others have there crisis, if we add our own to theres, we brew more for ourselves and them.

I dont think it possible to change anything without having first fully understood ourselves and our motivations, and finding a way to reduce suffering in ourselves.

I am just beginning that work, and in some way that will effect others around me, those that wish to maintain there own suffering will keep me in old habits and routines, those that can see benefit will allow me to move on.

Seeing past the limitations of our own knowledge is difficult until we have the hindsight of a better understanding, which hopefully comes with less suffering.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:04 / 10.07.06
Bruno, you haven't answered any of my questions to you or in any way engaged with my replies to your ill thought out paradoxical arguments.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:55 / 10.07.06
What Ill said. Also please note that Spain actually kicked out her ruling party over the Iraq war.
 
 
Bruno
08:18 / 11.07.06
The replies are really very thoughtful. I don't disagree with a single comment.
I really really try not to view any single person I interact with as 'stupid' or 'mentally unwell' etc. I do use terms like that in my everyday speech when referring to large groups of people such as the supporters of a political party. I think maybe that is the difference. As individuals people are human, but as masses we can become so inhuman.

On Sunday night I was drunk and angry, I apologize for being nasty.
My thought process had really confined itself to a very narrow way of thinking which does no credit to the ideas I was trying to explain. My thinking is not always so unclear and generalizing.
Yesterday the whole day I had a non-drug induced trip
(ok maybe it was post-alcohol)
feeling my own contradictions, feeling different parts of myself that were repressed and how they manifest in my social relations. I went to a friend's house and played a bit with his daughter who is 2 and it was very special. Afterwards I felt the different blocks correlating with different parts of my body and I could heal them with my breath.
I project a lot of shit onto barbelith that isnt necessarily here.
I've decided being a user here doesn't help me any more and I would rather spend less time on-line.
Bye.
Sorry for being a dick sometimes, try and remember my better posts.

-bruno
 
 
Quantum
08:56 / 11.07.06
Bye.
I hope you're setting your watch Ganesh.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:34 / 11.07.06
If not, can I say I won?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:56 / 11.07.06
Take care, Bruno. I hope that your time away is restorative
 
  

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