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A Crazy World

 
  

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Bruno
11:03 / 07.07.06
This thread started from a discussion in the Music forum here (until page 8)

I have responded there and will wait for any replies from there. (Mods feel free to shift posts from there to here).

In response to Flyboy's last post:
You're not implying it about anyone HERE, just all those plebs out THERE! What a credit to socialism you are!

Socialism is definitely in itself an elitist position when held within a context where very few people are socialists. For example in the US (let's talk about the US then).
A tiny amount of people there are socialists. Yet they think socialism is best for everyone, but everyone who is not a socialist doesn't think so. The socialists think they know better than the others. Isn't this so? So it is 'elitist' in a sense.
This does not necessarily mean they would like to impose their will on the others, or brainwash them into believing in socialism.
It really means that through communication the capacity for critical thought and its practice can be made more widespread. This critical thought is believed by the socialists to have the rational conclusion of achieving socialism.

Now if we look at the US, at a certain point in history, ninety something percent of Americans (according to polls) believed strongly that the US government should bomb Afghanistan, because Al Qaeda had allegedly crashed those planes. In my opinion this is clearly a highly irrational belief. Does anyone want to disagree with that one?

In fact most of world politics is run by similarly irrational beliefs. The existence of poverty, the weapons industy, the existence of war, the exploitation of labor, ecological catastrophe, widespread domestic violence and sexual abuse, excessively bad parenting and the general short-sightedness of the consumer society, etc etc. All are objective phenomena as I see them. How are they to be explained? The only way I can explain them is by saying 'most people are reactionary, uncritical, alienated, unaware of their needs and not mentally well'.

This does not mean I am perfect. Rather I put forward this discussion mainly as a tool to help me understand myself and others, so I can be a better person. As a better person I can avoid the negative influence of this society which is fundamentally sick. I take it for granted that all of us are to a certain extent reactionary, uncritical, alienated, unaware of our needs and not mentally well.

I apologize for not communicating as well as I could, please ask if something I have said is not clear.
 
 
Bruno
11:19 / 07.07.06
And a question to the more well read:
Apart from Wilhelm Reich & Erich Fromm, which other psychologists or commentators have analyzed society itself as mentally ill?

Has anyone read Deleuze & Gauttari's Schizophrenia & Capitalism, (I haven't read it), how does it handle the question?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:57 / 07.07.06
Socialism is definitely in itself an elitist position when held within a context where very few people are socialists.

No. "Elitist position" does not mean "any position which is held by a small or minority number of people".

Main Entry: elit·ism
Pronunciation: A-'lE-"ti-z&m, i-, E-
Function: noun
1 : leadership or rule by an elite
2 : the selectivity of the elite; especially : SNOBBERY [elitism in choosing new members]
3 : consciousness of being or belonging to an elite
- elit·ist /-'lE-tist/ noun or adjective
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
12:19 / 07.07.06
Socialism is definitely in itself an elitist position when held within a context where very few people are socialists. For example in the US (let's talk about the US then).
A tiny amount of people there are socialists. Yet they think socialism is best for everyone, but everyone who is not a socialist doesn't think so. The socialists think they know better than the others. Isn't this so? So it is 'elitist' in a sense.
This does not necessarily mean they would like to impose their will on the others, or brainwash them into believing in socialism.


No, it doesn't necessarily. But I do think it logically leads to vanguardism. When you're of the view that

I possess an above average faculty for self-reflection and can thus work at transcending the limits of society

to go with that, then even in its mildest form, it puts you up as some kind of leader, leading the unenlightened proletariat to the glorious dawn. While that might be your position (and it has pedigree, I'd argue it was Lenin's later position, after he'd broken with Marxism) it certainly wasn't the position of Marx. And I think it's disingenuous of you to claim Marx as inspiration for a worldview diametrically opposed to what he actually believed. Because while you might believe that the majority of people are reactionary and politically unaware and need your special insight into the human condition, Engels made clear that Marx thought the opposite.

Marx ... entirely trusted to the intellectual development of the working class, which was sure to result from combined action and mutual discussion

(Engels, Introduction to the Manifesto, 1888)

I normally try to avoid doing this in debate, but I think it's relevant here. Can I ask what socio-economic class you're from? Because I do get the feeling from some of your comments, and I could be wrong, that at least some of your feelings that you are better than most people at analysing society may come from unconscious class privilege, as opposed to objectivity. Because not only do I not think your position is actually a Marxist one, I think it's arguable whether Marx would have been prepared to have anything to do with you at all.

We cannot therefore cooperate with people who openly state that the workers are too uneducated to emancipate themselves and must be freed from above by philosophical leaders.

(Marx, circular letter to the leaders of the German Socialist Workers Party, 1879)

I'd seriously suggest you may either want to reconsider your position, or accept that you're not a Marxist, because I don't think you can carry on claiming two entirely contradictory things. Because, at the moment, your views would seem to me to fit perfectly into precisely the vanguardist position that Marx so bluntly criticised.

To them, the working class is so much raw material, a chaos which needs the breath of their Holy Spirit to give it form.

(Marx & Engels, Fictitious Splits in the International, 1872)
 
 
Bruno
11:35 / 08.07.06
Since you are initiating the discourse based on readings of Marx, I will reply within that framework too.

It is fairly common knowledge that many different interpretations have been and can be read into Marx's writings. There are many unresolved contradictions in his thought.
Personally I disagree with Leninist vanguardism since it locates the agency of change within the central committee of the Party, (the group of professional revolutionaries who 'know best' and work in secrecy, giving orders to the trade unions, pamphleteers and other agitators & revolutionaries). I think this is outlined in "What is to be done"? I haven't read Lenin in years. This is essentially counter-revolutionary; it reproduces the roles of leader & follower and doesn’t allow for dialogue. I think history has proven that this organizational framework results in a reactionary oligarchy and bueracracy.
At least we agree on that one.

Among the key problems facing Marxists over the century was the dilemma between agency and determinism.
(1)Some of Marx's writings basically say that communism is inevitable, that capitalism itself creates the conditions for communism, and that revolutionary consciousness will arise no matter what. This is determinist. Marx by the way believed this was going to happen very soon within industrial countries. But it didn't, and the only places where it did happen (albeit in a very warped form) was in pre-industrial countries.
A lot of later Marxist thought deals with this problem - why don't the masses revolt, even though the historical conditions now allow it, even though it is in our interest to do so?

(2)On the other hand Marx can be read as a figure of the Enlightenment, believing agency arises from deliberate effort and critical thinking on the part of individuals. Communism is a choice, it is not mankind's destiny, but something we humans, as self-creating beings, have the capability to bring into being. And this is a vanguardist position. Just as the belief that agitation is necessary is vanguardist. I think you are misreading Marx if you think that he believed the working class had already achieved revolutionary consciousness. Which is what you seem to be implying?

I possess an above average faculty for self-reflection and can thus work at transcending the limits of society
to go with that, then even in its mildest form, it puts you up as some kind of leader, leading the unenlightened proletariat to the glorious dawn. While that might be your position (and it has pedigree, I'd argue it was Lenin's later position, after he'd broken with Marxism) it certainly wasn't the position of Marx.


I think you are flat out wrong there. For a start Marx wrote:
“Criticism of religion is the prerequisite of all criticism”,
“Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again,”
“This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world.”
“The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.”
(all from A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right)

This was written at a time when the vast majority of the working class was religious. You can choose to interpret this as “some kind of leader leading the unenlightened proletariat to the glorious dawn”, I would rather see it as a critical thinker attacking reactionary prejudices and writing it down in an attempt to spread the ideas and generally encourage dialogue, critical thinking and therefore revolutionary praxis.

Here are some more quotes to show that Marx was aware that class consciousness was not present in the vast majority of people (Both are from Estranged Labour):

"Political economy conceals the estrangement in the nature of labour by ignoring the direct relationship between the worker (labour) and production. It is true that labour produces marvels for the rich, but it produces privation for the worker... it produces intelligence, but it produces idiocy and cretinism for the worker."

"The result is that man (the worker) feels that he is acting freely only in his animal functions – eating, drinking, and procreating, or at most in his dwelling and adornment – while in his human functions, he is nothing more than animal."


(He is fucking harsh isn’t he?)

you might believe that the majority of people are reactionary and politically unaware and need your special insight into the human condition

I think you have confused two things. It is a fact that the majority of people are reactionary and politically unaware. Otherwise why hasn't capitalism been overthrown? Look at the governments of the world, the people who elected them and the people who accept them. Can you explain it?

I am not saying the majority of people need “my special insight”. What people generally need (among other things) is a strong critical faculty, organizational skills and the motivation to put theory into practice. This is of course open to discussion, it is not a tablet handed down by God. But it is generally supported by practically any anti-establishment thinker I have read and definitely by any anti-capitalist psychology I know.

Engels made clear that Marx thought the opposite.
Marx ... entirely trusted to the intellectual development of the working class, which was sure to result from combined action and mutual discussion
(Engels, Introduction to the Manifesto, 1888)


I don’t think this is “the opposite” but in fact exactly what I am suggesting.

I normally try to avoid doing this in debate, but I think it's relevant here. Can I ask what socio-economic class you're from? Because I do get the feeling from some of your comments, and I could be wrong, that at least some of your feelings that you are better than most people at analysing society may come from unconscious class privilege, as opposed to objectivity.

I am an orphan and was adopted at age seven by a very rich family of arms manufacturers, who paid for my education and gave me everything I ever wanted. After I graduated from university I left home, never to see them again, and I worked as a miner for 4 years until I got a severe chest infection. Right now I live in a squat, give private art lessons and collect a disability benefit every month. What about you?

It's clear that we are both 'educated' enough to have read Marx, whether by others or on our own, and that gives us both a huge privilege. How we choose to use it is up to us.

We cannot therefore cooperate with people who openly state that the workers are too uneducated to emancipate themselves and must be freed from above by philosophical leaders.
(Marx, circular letter to the leaders of the German Socialist Workers Party, 1879)


I agree with that; it is my problem with Lenin. The point is not to be freed ‘from above’ but ‘from within’. But how do you suggest this is going to take place? It would be stupid to accept any belief that the majority of people believe in simply to avoid being an elitist. Much of what Marx wrote is contrary to the beliefs of the vast majority of the world’s population, both then and now. Do you dispute that? Your position is paradoxical.

-bruno
 
 
Bruno
11:40 / 08.07.06
And it is paradoxical when Flyboy accuses someone else of snobbery.

No. "Elitist position" does not mean "any position which is held by a small or minority number of people".

Did I say that?

"A tiny amount of people [in the US] are socialists. Yet they think socialism is best for everyone, but everyone who is not a socialist doesn't think so. The socialists think they know better than the others. Isn't this so? So it is 'elitist' in a sense."

Flyboy try interacting with that argument, if you can handle it. Copy pasting a dictionary definition does nothing for your position baby.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:44 / 08.07.06
After I graduated from university I left home, never to see them again, and I worked as a miner for 4 years

OT (well... possibly), but I always think it's so laudable when someone from a privileged background and with a University degree takes a job away from a working-class person to make some kind of political point.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:21 / 08.07.06
Bruno, I've already interacted with that argument. You said "it is 'elitist' in a sense", I have indicated that it is not, unless you're taking the "when I say a word, it means exactly what I want it to mean" line.

Saying "it is paradoxical when Flyboy accuses someone else of snobbery" is an ad hominem attack and it's an unsubstantiated one. Combined with baiting such as "if you can handle it" makes me highly disinclined to bother continuing to post in this thread...
 
 
Bruno
16:13 / 08.07.06
Flyboy, after being called arrogant and misanthropic, plus this, plus "I feel like I'm getting caught up in the Crazy World of Bruno and dragged off topic and letting the level of debate fall down again" I feel quite entitled to make ad hominem attacks at you. Especially since you can't even construct a rational argument darling.

I have asked you questions you don't reply to, including "If my arguments can be dismissed so easily then try doing it in a couple of paragraphs with arguments".

Can you explain why believing that "most people are reactionary, uncritical, alienated, unaware of their needs and not mentally well" is elitist,
while "A tiny amount of people [in the US] are socialists. Yet they think socialism is best for everyone, but everyone who is not a socialist doesn't think so. The socialists think they know better than the others" is not.
I would really like to know the difference because I see nothing. Anyone?


And "I'm not saying I take anything for granted" is very silly coming from you. You've made it clear you take for granted that racism, heterocentrism and sexism are wrong as well as "nostalgia is bad". Among others.

As for snobbery.

Also, could you give me a link to any posts of yours where you have changed your mind about something over the course of an internet discussion? I am curious.
 
 
Bruno
16:16 / 08.07.06
Mordant it wasn't to make a political point. I just really loved mining and nothing else could satisfy me.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:26 / 08.07.06

Can you explain why believing that "most people are reactionary, uncritical, alienated, unaware of their needs and not mentally well" is elitist,
while "A tiny amount of people [in the US] are socialists. Yet they think socialism is best for everyone, but everyone who is not a socialist doesn't think so. The socialists think they know better than the others" is not.


Well, that's pretty obvious. One is dissing the majority, of which one is certainly not a member. The other is dissing a minority political faction, thus leaving the majority unedited. Ergo, no elite.

Now, if this is the standard of argument in this thread, it's going in the Conversation, where we can talk about fondant fancies. If this is going to be another unedifying rumble, I have no interest in hosting it.
 
 
Ganesh
17:48 / 08.07.06
If we're going to be cavalier enough to fling around the likes of "crazy" and "not mentally well", perhaps we'd better define health/illness in this particular context...
 
 
Bruno
18:00 / 08.07.06
The other is dissing a minority political faction, thus leaving the majority unedited. Ergo, no elite.

No. It's a very small minority of people - namely the socialists - who believe that socialism is necessary for everyone. The vast majority of the population (in the US at least) are not socialists and in fact disagree very strongly with socialism. So why is it not elitist to be a socialist in the US?

Ganesh: that is a good idea but I will wait a bit for the other arguments to be resolved before going on to that one. Will give the thread a read right now.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:10 / 08.07.06
The Crazy World of Bruno Brown It's a very small minority of people - namely the socialists - who believe that socialism is necessary for everyone. The vast majority of the population (in the US at least) are not socialists and in fact disagree very strongly with socialism. So why is it not elitist to be a socialist in the US?

I'm confused. So, The Socialists believe they know best, therefore they are elitist. But the Conservatives believe they know best, so they would be elitist too. The Fundies reckon that forcing God's hand into declaring the end of the world is the best, so they are elitist. And the Trekkies think they are better than the Whovians and so are both elitist and SO VERY WRONG. You are being so vague that what you say doesn't really matter. Everyone believes their beliefs are correct, even if their belief is to 'believe everything' or 'believe nothing', so everyone is an elitist in your world. If everyone is an elitist then that cancels out and therefore no-one is an elitist. So, you can go home and transcend your limits and I can go home and watch Doctor Who.

BTW, I was never a miner, but I am a really sexy super-spy with a talking car and I get to sex lots of women.
 
 
Ganesh
21:33 / 08.07.06
Ganesh: that is a good idea but I will wait a bit for the other arguments to be resolved before going on to that one.

Well, you've used those terms in your title and abstract... and being a shrink, I'm vaguely uneasy with their casual use here.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
23:22 / 08.07.06
If I may..

Has anyone read Deleuze & Gauttari's Schizophrenia & Capitalism, (I haven't read it), how does it handle the question?

Well, I have, and the whole question of how a revolution is supposed to happen is the underlying topic of the book (and of Milles Plateaux) The main thesis would be that a true revolution can only come through a rizome (a concept based on the connexions between roots, as opposed to the tree metaphor that pervades all sciences and western thought in general, that is, a structure, contained entirely in a seed, and a necessary hierarchy of the composing elements). Therefore, all of the revolutions that we've seen have been limited (or betrayed, as in Orwell's Animal Farm) because of the need to maintain the basic structure of the State.
The action of criticism is thus held back, it's a limited critique(Kant) instead of an absolute critique (Nietszche, Spinoza) which tends to destroy the State-form in order to build something new and structure-less. This is closer to anarchism than (abstract) socialism in my opinion. A good example to understand this process would be V for Vendetta (the comic-book, not the anarchy-free edulcorated movie version).

Well, that was a rather long rant, wasn't it? Feel free to ask me more about the topic, Bruno.
 
 
Jesse
23:28 / 08.07.06
I think the thread has taken a turn for the worst. If you want to get into a debate on the definition of terms, go sit in on a Merriam-Webster usage comittee meeting. I'm here to debate.

I take issue with the general crux of this thread, insinuating that elitism carries an inherently negative connotation. For me, elitism does not insinuate that you possess ideas that are more valuable. Ideas are "value neutral" and carry little weight in a world where they can be infinitely reproduced via communication. For me, elitist positions espouse a position of an inherent inferiority in the Other; not only do the masses lack the ideas one possesses, but they also lack the faculties to understand and interpret them if they were given the opportunity. In other words, to be an elitist, you have to believe you possess something that is unattainable--or practically unattainably--by the Other via human communication (reading, discussion, etc.--I emphasize human communication because I think spiritual elitism is a very present and different issue).

That said, I think elitism is justified in some instances. If I'm a competent writer, for example, and I'm competing for a authorial position with someone who has a disability impairing their ability to write, I think that is elitism--and it is justified. Likewise, I think some people make better "critical thinkers". Whether or not this is a product of their upbringing, genes, or some combination therein matters little to me. Some people are more suited to think through things and come to a reasonable conclusion. Yes, I realize that this an unegalitarian position.

And it is the same unegalitarian position that Lenin ran up against in trying to espouse the Marxist credo. As was mentioned earlier, the masses of Russia were not rising up to bring about the dictatorship of the proletariat. There was widespread corruption, horrific living conditions, and an inept government at the helm: everything was in place for Marx's Revolution. And it didn't come about. Marx's deterministic hypothesis (I think Das Kapital planted him firmly in the determinist camp, as if his earlier writings left any doubt) failed miserably under scrutiny.

Is Orthodox Marxism an elitist position? I don't think so. I think it is unrealistic and absurd (later iterations, which edited Marx's ideas to an appropriate degree, not so much).
 
 
Ganesh
23:46 / 08.07.06
I think the thread has taken a turn for the worst. If you want to get into a debate on the definition of terms, go sit in on a Merriam-Webster usage comittee meeting. I'm here to debate.

If one's debate is framed in terms of "most people" being "not mentally well", then I'd argue that either 'mental wellness' ought to be elucidated, or one ought to drop the term from one's abstract. I'm well aware of the ways in which illness terms are used in a casual sense to stigmatise, alienate and 'other', and I don't think they're entirely peripheral to a discussion of elitism - particularly when it's titled "Crazy World".
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:06 / 09.07.06
Jesse I think the thread has taken a turn for the worst. If you want to get into a debate on the definition of terms, go sit in on a Merriam-Webster usage comittee meeting. I'm here to debate.

...Says someone who them promptly goes on to argue for their definition of 'elitism'.
 
 
Bruno
09:36 / 09.07.06
Ganesh: You are right, it needs defining. I read that thread (a very nice one too, why do all the nice ones just die out like that?) and will share some thoughts with you, to try and clarify.

Mental health and illness are to a large extent defined by society and therefore relative. I would argue however that certain criteria of mental health and illness are objective and would be true in any society. Some things I would consider objective criteria of mental health are:
1. the ability to empathize, share, give and accept love.
2. the ability to think critically and discuss
3. motivation to do things, both individually and collectively
4. to be able to feel adequate and confident
5. to be in touch with one's body, including physical contact with others
6. to be able to relate to nature and feel the interconnectedness of things.
7. To have an awareness of time, memory & the short and long term future
(this is just a quick outline based on my thoughts in general and the other thread you linked to)

And I think one can point to objective phenomena and show that society as a whole is generally not mentally healthy in these senses, although as individuals we sometimes are.
1. Rather than empathizing, loving & sharing, there is irrational distribution of wealth, as well as widespread violence (both physical and otherwise) against the majority of the world's population,
2. A general monopolisation of education, discourse and information which restricts a lot of free thought
3. Most people not doing what they would like to do but rather what is forced upon them by the social system
4. A lot of people feeling very insecure with many aspects of their being, and using coping strategies such as consumption, substance abuse or numbing parts of themselves. In addition an overdependence on paternalistic leaders and institutions who provide 'security' from a demonized 'Other'.
5. insensitivity to the needs of the body
6. people generally cut off from nature, and of course immense ecological damage which I can only describe as pathological
7. Lack of "historical consciousness" and very short term thinking for the future.

Thoughts?
 
 
Bruno
09:54 / 09.07.06
Prince of All Lies: Thanks. A friend of mine had told me about rizomes before, it's an interesting concept.

I am not sure about how that ties into the topic though... and well I was a bit more interested of what Deleuze and Gauttari have to say about Schizophrenia and Capitalism; I am assuming that the book must analyze these two terms and their connection to each other?
 
 
Bruno
10:01 / 09.07.06
Jesse: And it is the same unegalitarian position that Lenin ran up against in trying to espouse the Marxist credo. As was mentioned earlier, the masses of Russia were not rising up to bring about the dictatorship of the proletariat. There was widespread corruption, horrific living conditions, and an inept government at the helm: everything was in place for Marx's Revolution. And it didn't come about. Marx's deterministic hypothesis (I think Das Kapital planted him firmly in the determinist camp, as if his earlier writings left any doubt) failed miserably under scrutiny.

According to Marx's theory of history, Russia was not in place for a revolution since it had not yet entered the stage of production of industrial capitalism.

I think saying Marx was 'firmly in the determinist camp' is an overstatement.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:26 / 09.07.06
Bruno Thoughts?

Off the top of my head, treating the entire human population as one society isn't particularly productive.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
16:23 / 09.07.06
Sorry, I meant to explain that but I digressed..
In the Anti-Oedipus aka Capitalism and Schizophrenia, there's this theory that psychoanalysis (as seen in Freud, Lacan, Jung, Klein, etc) is not a revolutionary tool, but instead forces people to submit to it's inner structure (that of the Oedipus as a western cultural phenomenon, that need to interpret everything as family-oriented-daddy-doesn't-love-me-shit, and in a macro perspective, as the dominion of the signifier-the Law-the patriarch-the Phallus over the entire culture)

D&G proceed to establish their notion of schizophrenia as a liminal-concept to explain social behaviour and therapy, as it proves to be better suited to capitalism and its symptoms than psychosis (as Freud stated it). But society isn't portrayed as schizophrenic in a medical sense, it's a concept that serves to illustrate the fact that we don't have a "center", soul, Id, but are instead "organless bodies" that don't point to any structural entity, being immanent and not trascendent, pointing only to themselves and the affections that connect them to the world.

I'm not sure I answered your question, since there is no simple answer to that without considering the role of the psi community, capitalism since its appearance, the invention of the mental hospital as examined by Foucault, and lots of other discussions that would constitute another topic.
 
 
Bruno
18:04 / 09.07.06
Off the top of my head, treating the entire human population as one society isn't particularly productive.

Then let's say "societies functioning under industrial and post-industrial capitalism", which I would argue has enough of a standardizing effect to allow this sort of generalization.
 
 
Bruno
18:06 / 09.07.06
thanks Prince of Lies, that was a nice synopsis.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
21:12 / 09.07.06
Bruno, my problem with your elitist stance is this. It seems to rely on the belief that the only reason that the masses haven't embraced revolution is because they are unenlighted. You seem to believe that everything is reliant on more people listening to socalists. I don't see anything in what you've posted to suggest that you might actually have something to learn from talking to other people. Or that the fact that not many people currently embrace socialism might have as much to do with the failures of the left (of which I consider myself part) to relate to everyday concerns as much as anything to do with them being uncritical. Or that it's actually people being critical that is causing problems for the left. Which is why I think your position logically leads to vanguardism. To paraphrase Brecht, what's left for you when the mass of people don't accept your analysis, other then to dissolve the people and elect a new one?
 
 
illmatic
21:28 / 09.07.06
L of J:

Lest we forget, Bruno is of "above average intelligence" - (through historical accident of course). Ergo, he doesn't have to listen to other people, and their reactionary ways, because he already knows best. Which is why this is a load of bollocks.

am an orphan and was adopted at age seven by a very rich family of arms manufacturers, who paid for my education and gave me everything I ever wanted. After I graduated from university I left home, never to see them again, and I worked as a miner for 4 years until I got a severe chest infection.

If you had actually spent any time with working people, Iyou'd credit them with a little more complexity and intelligence, possibly even as much as you claim for yourself.
 
 
Bruno
21:51 / 09.07.06
Lamentation, you haven't answered any of my questions to you or in any way engaged with my replies to your ill thought out paradoxical arguments.

It seems to rely on the belief that the only reason that the masses haven't embraced revolution is because they are unenlighted.

Well they are not revolutionary or anti-capitalist, I'm not sure if I like the phrase 'unenlightened'.
So you tell me, why haven't they embraced revolution? The historical conditions are already here.

I don't see anything in what you've posted to suggest that you might actually have something to learn from talking to other people.

Then you are not reading very carefully:
And I also know that while people are on one level sick, alienated, reactionary etc, on another level "every man and woman is a star" and there is a very special quality to each person you ever meet, and that everyone has something to teach you if you are open in the right way.
and I try and open in this way when I interact with most people.

Or that the fact that not many people currently embrace socialism might have as much to do with the failures of the left (of which I consider myself part) to relate to everyday concerns as much as anything to do with them being uncritical.

I'm not saying I disagree but what everyday concerns are you talking about in particular?

Which is why I think your position logically leads to vanguardism.

I replied to the point about vanguardism but you seem to have ignored it, maybe you don't want to look at your own contradictions do you.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:09 / 09.07.06
Bruno, I will say this once more. If you are unable to keep anything resembling a civil tone in your conversation you do not belong in the Head Shop. Teen-Marxist toss like:

maybe you don't want to look at your own contradictions do you.

Has no role in a grown-up discussion.
 
 
Bruno
22:12 / 09.07.06
Illmatic, you have not engaged with a single argument except to pop in for a little dose of feeling superior to bruno. You are a hypocrite, talking about compassionate buddhahood and disidentification but you cant even observe an internet discussion from a distance. Or respect a user who has the self-honesty to admit to having had psychological problems.

As if you don't fucking act like you are of "above average intelligence" over in Temple in comparing yourself to the "less deep" who read new age books or to any poster who doesnt just talk about his own personal experiences. And you talk like you are some expert on Reich but conveniently ignore the entire social aspect of his work.

And don't talk to me about working people. I work and talk with working people often (feel free to disbelieve me if it doesnt suit the image of Bruno you would like to imagine). From what I remember you have said you are a teacher. Which is probably why your whole attitude is so fucking smug and paternalistic. Fucking hell. Why don't you just leave this thread alone. Since you have nothing at all to contribute.

What the fuck are you doing with that name anyway. "Make the white man bleed" you know that song, try not to think of me when you hear it.


I apologize to everyone else for being rude and aggressive but Illmatic has mocked me and attributed things to me which I have not said, while consistently refusing to respond to my points.

If you want to respond to this Illmatic do it in another thread. I suggest making a "talk shit about Bruno" thread, perhaps in Film & Television since I am really Sharon Stone.

-bruno
 
 
Bruno
22:17 / 09.07.06
Haus I typed an hour long response to Lamentation, indicating paradoxes in his position, and he ignored it. That is not "grown up" and does not belong in a discussion. Neither does calling me a 'teen marxist'.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:27 / 09.07.06
Fair point. On the strength of your response to Illmatic, teen maybe was pushing it. Pre-teen Marxist, maybe?

It might be worth asking yourself why people are giving up on trying to interact with you as if you were an able and equal interlocutor. It may be a) because you are so far beyond their unenlightened foolishness that they cannot even comprehend your left-wing science or b) because you are endlessly recycling accusations of paradox and hypocrisy beyond the patience of a group of people who regularly have to interact with Dead Megatron. Either way, this appears to be a "let's talk about Bruno (in the third person)" thread, and as such belongs in the Conversation.

I apologise to anyone who has posted worthwhile points, and suggest that we start another thread about Marxism proper in the Head Shop as and when so inclined.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
22:39 / 09.07.06
Lamentation, you haven't answered any of my questions to you or in any way engaged with my replies to your ill thought out paradoxical arguments.

What specific questions would you like answering and what specific paradoxes do you think there are in my position?

Well they are not revolutionary or anti-capitalist, I'm not sure if I like the phrase 'unenlightened'.

Ok, how about the phrase "reactionary, uncritical, alienated, unaware of their needs and not mentally well"?

So you tell me, why haven't they embraced revolution? The historical conditions are already here.

Because the arguments of people like you are entirely unconvincing and have to bearing on reality, and are theory entirely divorced from practise.

Then you are not reading very carefully:
And I also know that while people are on one level sick, alienated, reactionary etc, on another level "every man and woman is a star" and there is a very special quality to each person you ever meet, and that everyone has something to teach you if you are open in the right way.
and I try and open in this way when I interact with most people.


Ok, specifically, what have you learnt about the class struggle from interacting with ordinary working class people? What views of yours have been challenged or changed?

I'm not saying I disagree but what everyday concerns are you talking about in particular?

Bread and butter concerns. The issues of not having a traffic light at a crossing where kids have been knocked down. The issues of antisocial crime. The last left group to have any real basis in the working class, at least in the UK, was the Communist Party in the 1930's. And they got that base by doing day to day work around tenant's issues. Which I accept isn't as glamorous as pontificating on high.

I replied to the point about vanguardism but you seem to have ignored it,

No, I have disagreed with you. I believe your position leads logically to vanguardism, even if you don't see yourself as a vanguardist.

maybe you don't want to look at your own contradictions do you.

Well, could you help me by pointing them out old chap? I don't claim to have some special kind of unique insight into the world, unshared by the proles, so the views of an intellectual leviathan like yourself would obviously be a help.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
22:44 / 09.07.06
Oh, and just for the record. While you may think that referring to yourself in the third person makes you look like a loveable eccentric, in reality you just look like an overenthusiastic philosophy undergraduate trying to pull in their first week of university.
 
  

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