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Fair Trade and Ethical Shopping

 
 
nighthawk
21:11 / 01.07.06
I've been trying to write a coherent opening post for the past hour, but it seems my own ideas are not sufficiently clear, so I'll just ask some questions and post at length later. I'm interested in the way phrases like these are increasingly used to describe certain purchases, practices and lifestyle choices. Why are explicitly 'moral' terms used? I don't have a concrete idea of what 'ethical' means, but I'm fairly certain it has little to do with the contents of a person's shopping basket. Surely that's more likely to tell me about their disposable income and peer group? If moral language does apply to these acts, why is this the case? If it does not, why is it used?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:25 / 02.07.06
I don't have a concrete idea of what 'ethical' means, but I'm fairly certain it has little to do with the contents of a person's shopping basket.

Why is the content of a shopping basket any less relevant than anything concrete that you can come up with? Fairtrade is a very basic term described here. Part of the description states By buying direct from farmers at better prices, helping to strengthen their organisations and marketing their produce directly through their own one world shops and catalogues, the charities offered consumers the opportunity to buy products which were bought on the basis of a fair trade. That seems about as ethical as you can get within the international economic system. The flip side is that everything is more expensive because everyone is actually paid a real wage- this makes some of the produced goods, particularly fairtrade clothing less affordable for people who don't have much money here. Inequality isn't particularly ethical and capitalism constantly props inequality up. Ideally I'd like to see everyone, everywhere paid the same wage, working the same hours and all of the shit we see in supermarkets and chain stores wiped off the face of the earth but, hey, I'm an extremist, I don't think the Doctor is more valuable than the cleaner.
 
 
nighthawk
14:36 / 02.07.06
OK, to expand a little.

Phrases like 'fair trade' seem to apply to production methods and the trading of commodities. These are identified as 'fair' because they are orchestrated to assuage some of the inequalities that result from capitalism. It has very little to do with the character or actions of individuals involved in the process.

'Ethical Shopping', on the other hand, is more ambiguous. It is unclear whether 'ethical' applies to the objects purchased, or the act of shopping itself. Have we moved from characterising a particular process to describing the actions and characters of particular individuals? Is the ethical shopper morally superior to the person who does not have the disposable income or inclination to buy these particular goods? Is she morally superior to the person who buys coffee without a fairtrade label simply because it tastes better?

Now it might be the case that 'ethical' does properly apply in this second sense (perhaps its connected to ideas of privelege and duty?). I'm interested in whether people think this might be true.

If it does not, why might this ambiguity arise? I've been thinking about the effectiveness of 'fair trade' itself, given the speed with which it has been integrated into normal capitalist production (e.g. Cadbury Schweppes purchase of Green and Blacks). If the wrongs it serves to right are a direct result of capitalism, then surely the most it can do is to soften the blow. It does not address the actual basis of the inequalities.

I should stress that I'm not questioning any positive effects 'fair trade' has had or saying that the practice should be abandoned. Rather I'm wondering about the use of explicitly moral vocabulary. Is it incongruous to label something as 'fair' when its only a modification of the actual source of inequality (rather than an alternative or solution)? Does the ambiguity of phrases like 'ethical shopping' (consumer choices somehow affecting one's moral status), and the feel-good factor that results (and helps to sell a lot more chocolates) actually serve to obfuscate the functions played by these practices?

It might well be that these are the best possible solutions available to us given that capitalism is here to stay - that's a separate (and worthwhile) debate. Again, I'm just wondering about whether this is a proper use of ethical language...
 
 
nighthawk
14:56 / 02.07.06
Thanks Anna btw - I didn't mean to ignore your post, I just don't think my first one was particularly clear.
 
 
Jesse
15:28 / 02.07.06
The kicker here, I think, is that ethics are rather ambiguous to define. You have to justify a system before you go about standing on it to urge change. It just doesn't work like that. Regarding "fair" as a given ethical good that should be as obvious as "the sky is blue" or "dogs are mammals" is as unjustified as claiming that God must obviously exist.

I don't think you're having any trouble with these particular terms, per se, but you're picking up on the problematic nuances of the field of ethics in general. It's disturbing, difficult, and sometimes discouraging, but finding an ethical framework within which to urge global change is difficult, if not impossible.

I face similar ethical quandaries in defending my vegetarianism and urging similar change.
 
 
Quantum
12:44 / 03.07.06
My motivation for buying fair trade goods ,or eating only vegetarian food, or purchasing recycled things, or boycotting Nestle or whatever is based on my ethics. It's a moral choice to deny money to organisations I think are doing evil things (Coke, I'm looking at you) and supporting those I think do good in the world (Ecover f'rexample). So I think the use of moral language is entirely appropriate.
 
 
nighthawk
21:12 / 04.07.06
Thanks, both.

I guess I'm not defending any particular position here, just trying to find my way around what Jesse called the 'problematic nuances of the field of ethics.' This has turned out to be a really long post actually, and perhaps not overly clear as I was thinking as I typed. Also, although I took Quantum's post as my start point, none of this is particularly directed at hir or the content of that post. With that in mind...

My motivation for buying fair trade goods ,or eating only vegetarian food, or purchasing recycled things, or boycotting Nestle or whatever is based on my ethics.

That's a really good way of putting it, and sort of encapsulates why I'm confused here. You say afterwards that you try to support those organisations that 'do good in the world'. But so far as I can see, not all 'good' is straight-fowardly ethical or moral. I'm not suggesting that you thought otherwise mind, but bear with me a while.

Take food.

It can be 'good' because it provides sustenance and keeps my body working, or it can be 'bad' because it is not nutritious, or worse, rotten or diseased.

It can be 'good' in the sense that its well-cooked, flavourful, ripe, tasty. It can be 'bad' in the sense that its under-cooked, foul-tasting, unripe, stale.

(And perhaps it can also be 'good' in a secondary sense, in that it is the end result of a process that has other effects, irrelevant to the characteristics of the food itself.)


So we have a couple of possible senses of 'good'. I'll call the first one material good, i.e. something that changes or maintains objective material conditions with some particular (desireable) result.

The second 'aesthetic good', i.e. subjectively pleasurable.

The third sense doesn't really work with the food example, because its the sense in which I apply the word to moral agents. I can't say 'The chocolate is good' in the same sense as I can say 'Jesus is good'. This is what I think I mean when I refer to an ethical good. I use it to refer to particular people and their acts, or the dispositions of character that mean they would behave in a particular way in a particular situation.

It also occurs to me that all three of these uses might all actually derive their sense from what I called material good - I'll might come back to that in another post/thread.


Now my problem is that I can't situate 'fair trade' or, more importantly, 'ethical shopping' within that spectrum. Or rather I can, but it makes the latter non-sensical.

I think 'Fair Trade' is supposed to be a good in the same way that my healthy food was good. It will change the material conditions of particular workers, such that they can flourish, rather than struggle as they do at the moment.

Now perhaps 'ethical shopping' derives its 'good' from this, i.e. 'good' is said of it in a secondary sense. Ethical shopping is good because it encourages material changes of the sort that will allow humans to thrive.

'Of course it does', you're saying, 'that's exactly what I said when I buy certain products because I think they do some good!'. But bear with me a little longer...

Now because I (idiosyncratically?) understand 'ethical' to apply only in the third of my three senses, I think calling this particular act 'ethical shopping' might be a misnomer. I think the act of shopping shows me very little of moral interest about a person's character - I'm conjuring up hideous caricatures of a middle-class shopper turning his nose up at the local homeless guy as he stumbles home with bags full of 'Fair Trade'. Obviously that's a fairly fluffy and inconsequential example, but what I'm trying to say is that I think there's something horribly distorted in representing consumer acts as indicators of moral character.

Now I'm not sure this is what Quantum, or anyone else, is saying. Does the fact that you'll buy one product rather than another mean you are a better person? Perhaps you reflect on the 'good' that will hopefully come about as a result, and its your awareness of this that makes you good? Or perhaps your character doesn't come into it at all, and when you say what you buy is 'based on your ethics', you mean based on a sense of 'good' which has nothing to do with you particular character.




Anyway, as I've said, I understand the good purportedly brought about by fair-trade in the 'material' sense - it will change the objective conditions in which some workers live. I think the phrase 'ethical shopping' obfuscates this and, for me at least, hints at the idea that making a particular consumer choice makes one a good person.

This worries me because I think it serves to mask the role actually played by fair trade. I think if we understand fair trade purely as an attempt to alter the material conditions of workers, then it should be assessed purely on these terms. There's generally some hint that its 'capitalism' that has led to the inequalities that affect the workers in the first place. This suggests that if its capitalism that has led to these inequalities, then its the structural features of 'capitalism' that we should be analysing if we want to resolve them.

It seems to me that Fair Trade only treats the symptoms of capitalist economy without doing anything about its structure - its simply a modification of practice, not an alternative. The Cadburys/Green and Blacks case is a really good example of this. Cadbury didn't look at Green and Blacks example, think 'my god they're doing good', and change their own business practice to follow suit. That's just not how capitalism works. Instead they bought out the company, promised to let it maintain its 'independence' and 'ethical integrity' (of course! that's mainly why it sells so well!), without doing anything about their own, wider industrial practice.

Getting there, getting there, I promise... It strikes me that phrases like 'ethical shopping' serve to mask what's going on here. They vaguely suggest that the consumer is 'doing good' when they buy ethical products, that they're being good when they buy 'ethical' products, creating a warm sense of well-being and satisfaction, maybe even a bit of sel-righteousness (why isn't everyone as good as me, then this would all change!), and, most importantly, selling lots of chocolate/coffee/whatever in almost exactly the same way as before. People criticise capital, it adapts and reaccomodates them, making them feel good too.

Now maybe the important thing is 'almost exactly the same'. Frair Trade has, by all accounts, had some positive effect. But I think a better name for the practice would be something like 'political shopping', because it really focuses on the intended goal (and also, actually, because the phrase is so ridiculous that it provokes a critique of the whole concept). I think this might also help us think about exactly how 'fair trade' might be effective. This is not through individual consumer choices, made on the basis of products available. Its by trying to get large institutions to change their buying practices, in response to specific demands or situations. This is what really hurts corporations, and makes them take notice. The (student) UK Coke campaign refered to by Quantum is an excellent (failed) example. It was initiated in response to a direct request by unions at the Columbian bottling factory, not on a vague notiong of what was 'right' or 'good' in general. Although the campaign did try to raise consciousness among the student body, this wasn't really so that they'd change their individual buying patterns - it was so that they'd replace anything directly connected to Coke in their institutions (e.g. can machines), and write to Coke on an institutional level to say why they were doing this. It culminated with some students bringing a motion to NUS council trying to make it cancel its contract with Coke and change to Pepsi. Coke exercised its financial clout, making it impractical for the NUS to switch contracts - Coke stayed.

Now this model of 'fair trade' is very different from 'ethical shopping' as I've come across it in magazines and newspapers (two page spreads of delicious fairtrade chocolate etc), and situates it firmly with an overtly political analysis of what's going on in the world. My whole point in starting this thread was to test out the idea that the use of 'moral' language had a part to play in this, and the need for a more nuanced understanding of 'good' and 'ethics'. I mean maybe what I'm saying here is exactly what everyone else means by ethical good - perhaps all good is 'ethical'. I'm just trying to work out whether this is what I think, or what I ought to think...
 
 
Quantum
13:27 / 10.07.06
making a particular consumer choice makes one a good person.

Look at it the other way- some consumer choices make you a bad person, like buying ivory or slaves or whale oil. I don't get a virtuous glow when I buy fair trade, but I do get a twinge of guilt if I buy something I think is produced by child labour or whatever.
Take free range eggs- I think all eggs should be free range as standard, so I buy free range to encourage the practice and thus reduce the number of tortured hens in the world. It's not a particularly virtuous act, buying eggs, but I try to avoid doing harm which is generally a good principle.
I can see where you're coming from, and I'm wary of being duped by a faux-ethical branding of consumables (FairCoke! Now with 20% less sin!) but shopping is an exercise of choice. If you believe in your ethics surely that has to extend to every area of life you have a choice about, even buying eggs or washing powder.

Thinking about it, environmentalism plays more of a part in my shopping choices and other actions (e.g. recycling) than fair trade does, and that could be seen as self interest- I don't want my environment to become toxic.
 
 
redtara
22:14 / 14.07.06
It's the capitalism stupid!

Bizzare, the single, slightly coy, refference to capitalism that Nighthawk makes in this discussion about ethics and trade is remarkable.

I think capitalism is a mechanism where by money is allowed to attract other money for the purpose of creating more money, without regard to the negative effect on anything other than money, of it's movement around the world's economies, or the activities this funds. The ethics of capitalism are 'make the biggest profit'.

Coke shoot trade unionists because it is profitable.

Gap used children because it was more profitable than higher waged adults. Gap no longer use child labour because enough people chose not to buy gap to make child labour unprofitable.

Capitalism in it's essence is psycopathic in nature; a system that rewards unethical choices. It is only governmental protectionism, organised workers, or ethical business that can challenge the profit imperative. That's why your shopping basket is full of HUGELY ethical choices if you care to see them and make them.

Everything we do has a political/moral context.

Capitalism is the force that informs our choices both in terms of what is available to us and what value we place on them. It's all around, all the time and it is TOTALLY artificial. It is NOT THE NATURAL ORDER. And yet we behave as if any alternative agenda for organising the trading of goods and services is some kind of exercise in wimsy, a cute but impotent gesture, nieve and pointless.

It makes me sad.
 
 
nighthawk
08:53 / 15.07.06
And yet we behave as if any alternative agenda for organising the trading of goods and services is some kind of exercise in wimsy, a cute but impotent gesture, nieve and pointless.

It makes me sad.


Are you talking about the content of this thread, or attitudes in society at large? Just to clarify, my posts have two, vaguely related elements. Some ill-thought out reflections on the nature and form of purely 'ethical' activity, which I'm not at all certain about. But also some questions about the effects of phrases like 'ethical shopping'.

I'm certainly not attacking the idea of an 'alternative agenda for organising the trading of goods and services.' Rather I'm suggesting that by describing the activity of shopping in this way, and putting the focus firmly on the individual and her consumer choices, the potential challenge to capital is made fairly ineffective.

It empowers a relatively small section of society, the affluent middle class who can afford such items, gives them a sense of moral worthiness and also ensures that their wages are still given to the same companies (hence my Cadburys/Green and Blacks example).

At the same time it almost depoliticises the act itself. The shopper is left with a vague notion that 'some brand names are bad and i'm being good by buying the right products', instead of a concrete analysis of why these inequalities come about in the first place (obviously this is a generalisation, I know very little about the thought patterns of individual shoppers; perhaps I'm just wrong here...).

So a number of points. First if we want an alternative system of trade, it won't come about by the individual choices of consumers. I think its a middle class dream that hordes of ethical shoppers all making the right consumer choices will force companies to change their practice. All that happens is the companies change some of their products to reintegrate the lost market, and carry on their broader activity as before. The very nature of capitalism means that only a small section of the world's population belong to this sector of the market in the first place, while the rest of the world still need cheap, affordable commodities.

I suggested that a far better model would be altering the buying practices of large institutions etc., as this does hit companies hard. I have no illusions about this making capital fair, stamping out all inequality, etc. But it does politicise the situation, and helps us ask questions about exactly what we're doing here. The example of the Coke campaign shows how fair trade can be removed from a choice in a shopping aisle and recontextualised. As I said, it was a response to a specific request by the Columbian Unions, an explicitly political and confrontational campaign, not the introduction of a new brandname that consumers can feel good about coming back to.

My reference to capitalism was 'bizzare, single, slightly coy' because to be honest I don't feel capable or qualified to offer a broad analysis of how capitalism works. But if we recognise that it is capitalism that's the problem, then we ought to be asking questions about how capital can be checked or opposed. If capitalism is here to stay, then perhaps the best we can manage is 'governmental protectionism, organised workers, or ethical business' to keep it check. If its not, then these are only steps towards something different. Either way, I was simply asking people whether they thought the concept of 'ethical shopping' was actually helping here, not suggesting that it was necessarily 'some kind of exercise in wimsy, a cute but impotent gesture, nieve and pointless.'
 
 
redtara
14:28 / 16.07.06
Just reread my post and it's a tad spikey so chears for the calm coherent points you have made.

I think what makes me sad about some of what you raised in your previous-but-one-post was that you seemed to think that trade isn't a hugely, glarringly, obviously, ethical question, the dismissal of the killer coke campaign as a failure because it didn't have an instant take up by the students who were canvassed, and that Green and Blacks is the beginning and end of the ethical shopping model.


Mao said that Communism was a march of a thousand years (or somefink) and I suspect that a serious challenge to capitalism may have to gather momentum over a similar scale of time. It is not something that is going to be acheived this side of Xmas.

I was involved last year when the catering firm that has the student union franchise held it's AGM in a local hotel. I was a member of local Social Forum and we were aproached by NUS members to represent at the event. We contacted Sheffield Columbian Solidarity group. No one thought that our endevours would sort everything there and then, that the caterers would change their supliers and coke would stop paying death squads. Finding like minded people and doing something is all that you can do and with time that may change something. i suspect that coke will already have one eye on the negative publicity that killer coke is generating and they know too much about the power of PR not to take that seriously. We supply flyers and stickers that we get from Sheffield Columbian Solidarity group and I've met at few young people who have come to collect some to take to school. Little steps admittedly, but what is the alternative?

Also green and blacks might serve to line the pockets of cadbury but it also lines the pockets of the cocoa bean growers and the one does not negate the other. Ethical shopping means a great deal more to me than chocolate and coffee. It means buying seasonal produce sourced locally. Kenyan mange tout, found in my local supermarket, is unethical IMHO because it is a cash crop foisted on farmers to help pay international debts. Cash crops are grown instead of domestically consumed food crops and are tied into the outrage that is the debt burden of poor countries.

It is also immoral I think for food to be transported thousands of miles to areas fully able to grow those plants and another example of how capitalism encourages stupid choices with regard to people, the environment and an appropriate use of our resources.

The ethics of supply and demand are by no means simple and there are instances where the withdrawal of demand as an act of support has been rejected by the communities effected. Indian rug industry has conventionally used child labour and throughout the eighties and ninties activism lead to an awareness of the hardship of children unable to attend school and working a long day to make product for the world market. People stopped buying rugs and communities suffered. Rug making children were bread winners for their families and the lack of a job meant that both those children and their siblings were unable to afford school. The withdrawal of support from the industry without an initiative to effect possitive change was not enough to provide schools places for poor children. Ethics is a question of intent, actions based on the best of intentions don't always have the possitive results intended... I'm not suggesting that this is simple.

Realistically it takes time and a great deal of economic pressure to change the habbits of big business. The alternative is to side step them intirely. Support local producers and vendors even if that does mean paying a little over the odds. Get a vehicle that runs on diesle and find a biodiesle supplier. When you see a t-shirt for £3 in ASDA know that it was made by young women forced into endentured slavery for lack of job market choice in China and head off to the charity shop.

The cheap goods that you think you need are only cheap because someone else pays the price of their production for you, either because the raw matterials were bought in a market that does not provide the producer with a fair price or the manufacturer does not receive a living wage for their endevours or the supplier uses casualised under paid labour in it's shops.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, and if you think your getting one it's 'cos your eating off someone else's plate.

Finally I feel like there is a collective acceptance of the market economy as 'just how it is'. Very little is questioned or challenged. I feel the situation is analagous to communist Albania were the indoctrination of the population was complete and the acceptance of communism as a system to live under was unquestioning. It drives me nuts. I feel like i'm shouting 'the emporers got no clothes' and people are saying 'we know but that's just how it is.'
 
 
Quantum
14:53 / 17.07.06
I think your ethical choices have to extend to your shopping, whether it's pandering to a capitalist system of inequity or not. If I support a charity to alleviate the suffering of 4 billion mammals and 55 billion poultry, in order to avoid hypocrisy I have to buy free range meat or be vegetarian. Surely. Thus ethical consuming.
 
 
nighthawk
15:24 / 17.07.06
Again, thanks both.

I think I'm going to hold back from this thread for a while as my ideas are still rather confused. I'm conflating thoughts about the effectiveness of different models of Fair Trade with the broader 'ethical' concerns that led me to start this thread. If someone wants to start a Switchboard thread on the former I'll try to contribute.

As for the philosophical side: the distinction I was trying to draw is between the motives individuals cite for their actions (as Quantum says, ze makes certain choices because of hir ethics), and the use of 'ethical' in an evaluative sense to describe a particular activity (here, shopping). I think Quantum is right to say that we perform particular activities because we hope they will further some Good, and this Good is perhaps best described as 'ethical'. I need to clarify the rest of my thoughts before I post anything more.


As an aside though, my description of the student Coca-Cola campaign as 'failed' was a little unfortunate. I only meant that it 'failed' in so far as it had not managed to secure an NUS boycott, one of its key aims.
 
 
redtara
17:55 / 17.07.06
Yet.
 
 
Topher, Bicycles for Everyone
18:10 / 18.07.06
"Capitalism is the force that informs our choices both in terms of what is available to us and what value we place on them. It's all around, all the time and it is TOTALLY artificial. It is NOT THE NATURAL ORDER"

You might be interested in reading a book titled, The Origin of Wealth. Further, capitalism can do a lot of good. Fair trade and other niche "progressive" movements tend to forget that without capitalism they would not be able to type up their movements on their PC's or Mac's. They would not be able to have the Internet or the computer interface to post on Barbelith.

Capitalism is not perfect, but no system of economic exchange will be. Capitalism, in my opinion, offers greater good than bad. Are some corporations going to take advantage, yes, but not all of them work that way. Further, capitalism tends to offer more ways for the middle class to secure financial stability. And yes, it does tend to help keep the lower classes from experiencing this ability. (Ability to invest in IPO’s.)

Nissan came to the United States and agreed to build automobile plants in the US but refused to have them become union jobs. An Old New York Times article shows that back in the eighties Nissan came over here. What has been the result? Nissan is strong, made jobs for people, and has not had to use unions.

My point is that while one poster stated that unions were good, they were good, but now have become just as corrupt as the capitalism they were trying to check. I think capitalism swings like a pendulum. The market tries to straighten some things out, but through government regulation it gets screwed up.

The world is becoming smaller, or flatter according to Thomas Friedman. The global economy is now being taken into consideration. WTO, IMF, and the World Bank help offer an official set of rules to the new economies that are opening up. We are on the cusp of something expansive here for the first time in the history of humankind. As one poster said, the idea of the nation-state is slowly falling away. As the world economy grows bigger and more countries join the WTO the need for borders will start to dramatically decline. The United States is already on this path with Canada and Mexico with the creation of the SPP. However we are not there yet.

So for the moment when Dell outsources computer tech support to men and women in India it is not necessarily a bad thing when looking towards the future. The people getting the work in India are paid less, but India's costs for living are much lower than the United States'. This means that companies can save money and promote a better economy to India.

It will also help the United States. As more textile jobs are shipped to China and India it will, hopefully, make citizens of the United States more apt to the fact that jobs they could do fifty years ago with a high diploma are gone. They need to focus on education in order to get a job that pays well and that provides for a potential family. This could lead to a jump in the amount of Americans that have a college diploma as well is make a more intelligent electorate.

While some see the WTO, outsourcing, and capitalism to be bad things that make people want to find avenues to create pet projects such as the "fair trade" movement I think that in the next twenty years there will be a very different way of looking at jobs, the free market, and the world economy.
 
 
redtara
21:57 / 18.07.06
Topher's suggested reading

Hmm I'm afraid that if Eric doesn't include:-job satisfaction, autonomy, community, families, self respect, health, the beauty of the world or peace in his deffenition for 'what is valuable?' then I'm not interested in reading his book. I'll at least wait till the paper back comes out.
 
 
nighthawk
22:02 / 18.07.06
Thanks Topher, but perhaps we could have general discussion about the merits of capitalism in a new thread? I imagine people will have a lot to say, I'd rather not see this one derailed.
 
 
Topher, Bicycles for Everyone
14:57 / 20.07.06
True enough Nighthawk, I attempted to show where "fair" and "free" trade mix it up, but failed. I'll start a thread later.
 
 
redtara
22:22 / 26.07.06
Hey Nighthawk, I know you think that all this talk of capitalism has derailed your thread, but I really don't think you can talk about the ethics of consumption and not make reference to the model peoples motivations operate within.

Topher, really wish i had the time to start another thread where I could headucate you on the pure evil that is the WTO, World bank and IMF. I think we inhabit different realities my friend. Best of luck with yours.
 
 
nighthawk
23:11 / 26.07.06
Hey Nighthawk, I know you think that all this talk of capitalism has derailed your thread, but I really don't think you can talk about the ethics of consumption and not make reference to the model peoples motivations operate within.

Sorry but that seems a little unfair. I don't think this is 'my' thread. I simply felt that although Topher made a number of good points, they would be better served in a separate thread, as ze did not really mention fair trade in the main body of hir post.

Rereading my posts, I feel as though I've explicitly framed my questions with reference to capitalism, and I'm not sure I understand why you've twice posted as though I am ignoring it.
 
 
redtara
18:41 / 28.07.06
perhaps we could have general discussion about the merits of capitalism in a new thread....I'd rather not see this one derailed.

is that any clearer for you?

Put, very, simply; neocon capitalism forces choices that ignore morality or questions of fairness unless there is a profit in it.

I think that this function of capitalism is often ignored/denied, Nighthawk is ignoring it and doesn't feel it merits debate and Topher is denying it 'cos the WTO + IMF have done such great things to challenge trade inequality, yuk yuk!
 
 
nighthawk
19:41 / 28.07.06
is that any clearer for you?

Why are you being so aggressive and patronising? If you read Topher's post, ze is suggesting that capitalist trade is itself positive and therefore fair, presumably with the implication that organised and brand-named fair trade is pointless. I thought if people wanted to debate whether capitalism itself was fair, then the discussion would be better served in a new thread. Part of my reason for suggesting this was because I thought I'd quite clearly framed my questions here with the assumption that capitalist economy is an overwhelmingly negative structure - we're talking about fair trade as a means of checking capital, right? I confused matters somewhat with additional concerns about ethics and the use of ethical language. That was why I questioned the effectiveness of 'reformist' strategies within capital when, as you so kindly pointed out, 'it's the capitalism stupid!'
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:53 / 29.07.06
Please calm down, redtara. Nighthawk is right, or thereabouts. Topher made a general statement about the virtues and benefits of capitalism. This should definitely be challenged and discussed, but this thread is not really the place to do it. If you want to discuss capitalism in general, I would suggest either reviving a thread or, probably better, copying and pasting Topher's comment into a new thread and responding to it there. Alternatively, relate what he has said to the Fairtrade movement. If you're not able to do either, please do not rot this thread.
 
  
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