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The big push

 
  

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GogMickGog
15:48 / 26.06.06
So, here's the thing.
The other day I took a tumble down some steps and have a funky leg size cast and bagful of painkillers to show for it. This rather buggers my post-graduation plans and I figure, with all the time I'll have free, I might as well do something creative.
UEA have yet to get back to me, so my (cracked, naieve) notion is that perhaps if I can get those mythic 3 chapters up and polished, alongside some sort of structural plan for a first book and tart them around a helluva lot, I might be able to achieve some sort of success?

Now, I'm not after the waves of scepticism such a pipe dream has inveitably stirred, but was wondering if any of the lith's more experienced writers might be able to point me in the right direction as far as gathering images, structuring narrative, maintaining characterisation etc?

Organisation has never been my strong point and I've never ventured beyond short stories and one (quite successful and well-received) full length script- the structure of which came together very oddly and piece by piece.

I've got bits and pieces of ideas and images but tying them together-meh!-maybe it's the medicated haze, but it all seems beyond me.

Barbelith, can you fix it for me?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
16:37 / 26.06.06
Sorry to hear about your accident, Mr Mick. However, if you're going to be laid up for a bit anyway, starting a novel seems like a better use of your time than say, spying on the neighbours with a long range telescope.

As far as structuring ideas goes, I'd recommend trying to put together a short synopsis (a couple of pages, not much longer, ie, the kind of thing you'd submit to an agent or publisher,) first, before you do anything else. This doesn't have to be something you necessarily stick to, but unless you've got a broad idea of where the story's heading, and what needs to happen along the way, I'd imagine it'd be a bit of a struggle to get past the first couple of chapters.

On the other hand, if you're still looking around for the great, central idea of what your book's going to be about, I'd suggest a progamme of quiet contemplation, involving films, telly, whisky, favourite novels, that kind of thing - I suspect others will disagree, but in personal experience, if you just start writing you'll end up with a lot of unusable material which you're nevertheless still quite attached to, and reluctant to bin. Which is the worst kind of unusable material, IMVHO.

That said, it totally depends on the kind of novel you want to write - again, ask yourself this before you put pen to paper, but if you're after something personal, impressionistic and autobiographical you may find the structure looks after itself.

So there you go, my two cents.
 
 
Spaniel
19:15 / 26.06.06
I've ever actually written a novel, but I've planned a couple using Randy Ingermanson's Snowflake Method.

It's a slow process that involves writing a synopsis, and chapter breakdowns, and character biogs, and suchlike but it is rewarding, and manages not to slaughter the creative urge, which is always a bonus.

Oh, and Randy is a speshul guy. I don't know what I want to kiss more, his mullet or his moustache.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:46 / 27.06.06
The Snowflake method looks good, especcially that first point about starting out with a sentence synopsis and building up from there.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
16:11 / 27.06.06
eh... i make it up as i go along. just got back from a writers' conference and almost all of the people there do the same. formulaic methods lead to formulaic results, i say. this of course is for literary fiction. i would imagine that genre fiction has more rules.

i just decided to shelve a 3/4 completed draft of a novel because i decided that it would be a better second novel, and not the one i would want to be my first. i've been collecting ideas for this new novel, just jotting down notes, names, details, the past few months. and then one day last week the opening chapter invaded my brain and i started writing.

i write details down as i think of them, but my process is in no way formal. i keep a novel journal that's separate from the file that actually contains the novel, where i basically put everything related to the novel that's not the novel: snippets, cut passages, rants, thoughts about the structure as i go along.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
17:30 / 27.06.06
formulaic methods lead to formulaic results, i say.

True. On the other hand, you need to know which of all the cool clothes (ideas) you've got will go well together on the dummy (the novel), and having the idea clear in your mind first, if you can, can sort out a lot of headaches. Of course the idea may well change.
 
 
TeN
19:05 / 27.06.06
I suspect others will disagree, but in personal experience, if you just start writing you'll end up with a lot of unusable material which you're nevertheless still quite attached to, and reluctant to bin. Which is the worst kind of unusable material, IMVHO."
from personal experience (countless occassions) I know this to be very very painfully true
 
 
Ender
19:53 / 27.06.06
Fuck all that shit mick, just smoke a fatty and listen to some good music with a pen in your hand and some paper in front of you.
 
 
Spaniel
20:51 / 27.06.06
Sib, I don't think it's coming on too strong to suggest that this sentence

formulaic methods lead to formulaic results, i say

is utter bollocks, and totally unhelpful.

I'm sorry if you think I'm being a little harsh, but I learnt the hard way that I NEED to have a plan. Without one I simply can't get going.

The fact is, Mick may well be in the same boat, so it would seem to me rather rude (not to mention quite simply wrong), to suggest, in thread, that anything he produces with the help of a plan will be formulaic pap.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:45 / 27.06.06
Formulaic methods lead to formulaic results, i say. this of course is for literary fiction. i would imagine that genre fiction has more rules.

Well literary fiction is noted for its disinterest in the basic rules of grammar, certainly.

i just decided to shelve a 3/4 completed draft of a novel because i decided that it would be a better second novel, and not the one i would want to be my first.

Erm, QED?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
02:46 / 28.06.06
Some thoughts:

I should say that I think "making it up as you go along" is a perfectly acceptable tactic for a short story or poem, because the finished thing is short and manageable and you can go back and change it easily if and when you need to.

If you've got something the length of a novel though, a wrong turn you took on a whim is going to cost more than just the price of re-writing a paragraph (the image that springs to mind is Gromit laying down those railway tracks in The Wrong Trousers, and the fact that while he is an amazing dog and could predict exactly which track to put down, you and I do not have that kind of foresight in the thick of it and will probably end up crashing into the table and not catching the penguin*).

You may very well end up with entire chapters or chunks of chapters that need getting rid of or re-writing from scratch, and this arduous repetition will shit all over your creativity. This can be largely avoided with some planning.

If you look at, say, On the Road, that was a very spontaneous novel but crucially it was recording real events and so the author's mimesis of those real events would seem to have come naturally in their writing down. If you're writing something that's purely, or largely, fictional- it'll need a lot more work. This is something I've been trying to get across to certain Kerouac fanboys of late.
_____

One of the things the snowflake man made clear and which I will stress again is that the original idea, the original plan, can change as much as it needs to during the planning stages- what we're doing is focussing the creative urge, not restricting it- the idea is to marshal your ideas properly in the planning stage first and then go all semantic splurge when it comes to the writing and you know which direction to take it in.

One of the arguments for the "make it up as you go along" approach is that characters will dictate what needs to happen, and so you can't know in advance. Sure they will- yet as above you can make all these changes in the planning stages.

It's a hell of a lot easier to play with the book's skeleton than it is to rewrite a full draft over and over. In fact, let's be honest, you will shelve the project in the latter case.

I also think from bitter personal experience that making it up as you go along is a breeding ground for all manner of awful sub-Beat streams of conciousness or rambling point-free genre epics: there's far too much room to be lazy and sloppy, to please yourself rather than think about communicating a dialogue with your reader, with A.N. Other Human Being who it is your job to entertain (unless your idea of writing is purely self-gratifying- in which case fine, but don't expect to see it published).

If you can rigorously self-edit and rigorously self-discipline then maybe, just maybe, you can do the whole thing spontaneously** from top to bottom, but then I think you would also be a Dalek.
____

All this is not to say that you should go in the opposite direction and write the sodding Silmarillion. When I hear people talking about making geographical maps with trees and houses or drawing spaceship schematics or writing long, complete character biographies I cringe- I don't think you need to do this stuff and I also think people do it as an excuse to do anything other than The Writing Itself. It's cuddly, fluffy stuff, and means exactly nothing to your reader.

It's another shitter on creativity- if you want to write down a pertinent fact that must be remembered, like say, "Bob has blue eyes", "the cat is brown", "there is a post office next to the shop", then fine, but don't for heaven's sake waste your energy on numbly cataloguing all data.

To sum up, don't get hung up on the bones, but do sort out a skeleton first, otherwise you'll end up with a sluggy turd.







*I apologise profusely

**This isn't to knock spontaneity in general, in fact I find cut-ups are a great way of generating that first, primal idea or ideas
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
09:40 / 28.06.06
I'm sorry if you think I'm being a little harsh, but I learnt the hard way that I NEED to have a plan. Without one I simply can't get going.

The fact is, Mick may well be in the same boat, so it would seem to me rather rude (not to mention quite simply wrong), to suggest, in thread, that anything he produces with the help of a plan will be formulaic pap.


Don't think you're being harsh, though I imagine Nick can speak for himself, and can ignore my opinions if he chooses. I never suggested that people don't plan their novels. If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I make lots of plans for my work and keep a separate journal specifically for that purpose. What I'm saying is that any externally derived plan that's the same for every novel you write will lead to structures that are common to everything you write, when part of the point of truly innovative fiction is to break new structural ground in the first place.

It's like, do you want to construct a pre-fab cookie cuttrer house or do you want to do something funky and unique? Because if you plan all your novels the same way using some external tool, I would argue that the basic structure of the novel would end up becoming a byproduct of the inorganic, cookie cutter plan.

I've also learned to be utterly unintimidated by revision. It's an important part of the process. Jonathan S. Foer noted in an interview that he wrote 37 drafts of "Extremely Loud, Incredibly Close." I don't think that's atypical. I don't think there are shortcuts. It's hard work and while it may be inefficient, I would rather chip away at the problem and come out the other end with something that hasn't been done before than use a preexisting mold for the sake of expedience.

And Grandma. It's fiction. Grammar. Doesn't. Count. Also, I shelved the first novel for totally different reasons than structural problems. And even if I did have structural problems with it, I would have no qualms about rewriting. At all.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:29 / 28.06.06
Sibyline: I don't think anybody's arguing that you structure the finished product along a schematic—but it can be a useful tool for getting the story out and written. And once it's written—that's when the real work begins, yeah?

With a first draft, you're telling a story. It's only after you've told your story that you're ready to actually write your novel.

It's a paradox: It's in those last 36 drafts that the actual work of novel-writing happens; but they are somehow are less difficult than the first one, where you're creating something out of nothing. Whatever it takes to get you to that first draft, that starting point—whatever map or scheme or diagram or exercise, whatever it takes—as far as I'm concerned it's fair play. Because the end result is gonna be something else entirely.

Oh, and this:

just smoke a fatty and listen to some good music with a pen in your hand and some paper in front of you.

How's that working out for you, genius?
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
15:08 / 28.06.06
With a first draft, you're telling a story. It's only after you've told your story that you're ready to actually write your novel.

Well, everyone works differently. My point is that every novel will be written a different way, according to the needs of both the novel and the writer. IMO, imposing external constraints on that process will definitely speed it up, but also runs the risk of the novel conforming to the byproducts of that process.

There are no rules. First drafts may be story-driven but they can also be a messy glob of impressions. I prefer to figure things out in the writing.

Writing using the Snowflake Method, for instance, would IMO lead to a specific kind of novel, more Da Vinci Code than Light in August. I don't advocate forbidding any kind of process, but I maintain that each story has to dictate its own process and methods.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:37 / 28.06.06
Well, yeah, obvs. I wouldn't think to use that particular method if I didn't think it'd be helpful to the kind of story I was trying to tell.

Beyond that, though—Whatever gets you through the night, y'know?
 
 
Jack Fear
17:40 / 28.06.06
(And not everybody wants to write a Light In August, kid. Some people genuinely want to write well-crafted commercial fiction: and if they do it well, and people want to read it, well... to quote another ex-Beatle, What's wrong with that?)
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
18:55 / 28.06.06
Well, yeah, obvs. I wouldn't think to use that particular method if I didn't think it'd be helpful to the kind of story I was trying to tell.

um, yeah, which is why if you read carefully it's clear that i'm not making such a stupidly obvs. point, nor do i argue that every novel should be light in august, nor does infantilizing me actually address the points that i'm making. i am also neither a man nor made of straw.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
19:19 / 28.06.06
Jonathan S. Foer noted in an interview that he wrote 37 drafts of "Extremely Loud, Incredibly Close."

I don't believe him. Not unless he's one of those who changes a couple of phrases here and there and calls it "draft x+1" so he knows which one's most recent. 37 full drafts, full rewrites, sentence by sentence and chapter by chapter ... surely not? I mean, there's hard slog and there's just plain OCD ...
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
19:46 / 28.06.06
here's the article. and here's the relevant quote. i miseremembered, 39 and not 37:

"How did the idea for the novel originate?

Very organically. It began with a museum, actually. A once-famous European writer disappeared for forty years, and then reappeared. Over the course of successive rewrites--as my passions and sense of writing changed, and as the world changed--the novel was destroyed and rebuilt many times. The writer and museum fell by the wayside. A precocious young boy in a damaged city took center stage. I've written thirty-nine distinct drafts of this book. Like a boat whose every plank is replaced while journeying at sea, the first and last drafts have nothing tangible in common--no characters, themes or plot--and yet are one in the same. And to get to the 400 or so pages that ultimately comprise the novel, I had to write well over 2,500. Which is to say the boat has been an aircraft carrier, at times. It's been a volatile process."
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:34 / 28.06.06
You do realise he's talking about several different novels there, yeah? Which is to say he hasn't been hacking away at exactly the same piece for 39 drafts.

Or he could be lying.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
01:44 / 29.06.06
I've written thirty-nine distinct drafts of this book.

um, it seems pretty clear to me that he's talking about one book. it really doesn't seem that surprising to me...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:15 / 29.06.06
Grammar.

You know, I think that sentence is missing a verb.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
10:13 / 29.06.06
Hur.

And Grandma. It's fiction. Grammar. Doesn't. Count.

Weeell, it sort of depends on what sort of fiction you're talking about, doesn't it? In experimental fiction, which is what you seem to want to write, you may well be on the money - but in more mainstream fiction, I think you'll find that as far as editors, agents and public are concerned, grammar (and general clarity and correctness of language) is right up there with outmoded bourgeois conceits like story, character and plot.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
10:18 / 29.06.06
And Mick, take heart - UEA's been having a lot of admin/teaching staff disruption recently - strikes and all sorts have meant that the interview and exam marking processes are all hopelessly behind at the moment. They are probably just getting around to looking at the most recent applications now.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
10:41 / 29.06.06
Even mainstream fiction is riddled with sentence fragments used strategically for effect. I was hedging a little bit with my response because I have no clue how seriously to take Grandman, but I also thought it was a bit cheeky to criticize the grammar of a post that was written in haste on a break from fiction writing, and therefore had sentences with a lot of compound clauses, because it's my tendency not to use periods when I'm in a big hurry, like I am now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:32 / 29.06.06
You see, Sib, as soon as you _respond_, you're falling into Grandma's spidery trap. The correct parry would have been an indulgent but regretful correction of the use of "disinterest".

Back on more serious matters, and specifically grammar. The role of grammar in a work, and in its reception, is clearly an unfinished discussion. Anne Rice, for example, believes that the only function of her editor is to correct her spelling and grammar mistakes - that is that, as a writer, it is OK for her not to keep too tight a rein on grammar, but that the finished article on the shelves should nevertheless be grammatically correct, at least to a reasonable degree. However, Anne Rice is Anne Rice, and has done the work. In a work of narrative fiction, in what WP identifies as the conventional style, those who are not Anne Rice may want to make sure that their work is grammatically correct before putting it in front of an editor, at least to the point where it is comprehensible.

Perhaps grammar is being taken to mean adherence to a specific set of rules, here, rather than a shared structural framework between reader and author that is consistent and comprehensible. Thus, Damon Runyon, Russell Hoban or Mark Haddon may not be writing sentences that are strictly in line with formal English grammar, but they are coherent and the reader can understand both the narrative and why the narrative is being expressed in those terms. I assume that this still applies to even quote modern unquote works - that there is, if not adherence to grammar, adherence to a grammar.

Of course, I doubt that Runyon, Hoban or Haddon wrote their covering letters in the style of their novels, so that's down to occasion and audience.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:45 / 29.06.06
um, it seems pretty clear to me that he's talking about one book. it really doesn't seem that surprising to me...

But he also says it was destroyed and rebuilt many times, and that the finished one was entirely different to the first one. That to me sounds like an amorphous mass of prjoects and ideas that as a whole takes up 39 drafts, but I'm not sure if it counts as "all the same book".
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
16:22 / 29.06.06
as ambigious as j.s.f.'s quote was, he's still not planning to publish the rejected parts of "extremely loud" as a separate novel, which means that he was working on 39 drafts of the same novel. the novel developed in a lot of different directions as he was working on it, but it wasn't like he was working on several projects at once, which is what your post, legda, seemed to imply.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
18:26 / 29.06.06
Legda? I ain't no swan luvvah!

Moving on, while we might accept that Froer had the luxury of rediddling the novel 39 times, Mick might not have that luxury...
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
22:27 / 29.06.06
sorry, i'm dyslexic.

but who knows. mick might!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:09 / 30.06.06
What would be really cool would be if Legba over there bought a copy of JSF's novel, redrafted it 39 times, and then sent all 39 drafts to JSF in a single huge envelope.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
08:38 / 30.06.06
With the return address written in hir own blood.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
08:49 / 30.06.06
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
12:44 / 30.06.06
oo oo cld some anal mod pls add (PICS) to the subject!
 
 
GogMickGog
16:19 / 30.06.06
Hey, Priestess thanks for the words of encouragement..I'm rather down, what with the whole buggered knee and stuff. Ho hum.

To clear things up a tad, what I'm looking to write is both something structured and with popular appeal and also with literary merit (so, not Dan Brown then). Hope that might stoip some of the fighting...
 
  

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