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Alan Moore and Melinda Gebbie's 'Lost Girls'

 
  

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This Sunday
10:42 / 16.04.07
I thought of this when I ran across Warren Ellis' quoting someone else about the neuroses and pyrrhic nature of mapping fictional sets. Moore does it a lot, and I think there's some interesting things to be mined from that work, but in the end, it's just not as fruitful as developing new territory.

I like Gebbie's artwork in general. I've harped on 'Watchmen' enough in this forum that my position as not-a-huge-fan of Alan Moore's is pretty open. If this cost twenty-something dollars, I'd maybe buy a copy. At it's current existence, I don't think I ever will.

Moore's views of sexy are simply very alien to my own. At least, the way he demonstrates and utilizes sexy in his comics doesn't comfortably line up with the way I want to read sexy. Fine, fair enough. But in a work about sex and sex-narratives, if that aspect doesn't communicate to me or say anything I find interesting or intriguing... then there's nothing really there for me except embarrassingly freudian flight analysis.

To steal from Nabokov: I don't have his umbrella or his flying dreams.

I think the problem might be, at least, the issue I had with the early bits of this released way back when, is Moore seems to be trying to be universalist about porn. And porn, kink and fetish, cannot be universal. It's got to be vaguely familiar, yes, but familiar in its own very specific route, not familiar in an all stories grand narrative sense. And the responses cannot be expected, across the board, to be the same to the same stimuli.

One person's porn is another person's nameless cosmic vagicentric deathgod.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:33 / 16.04.07
I think Promethea was a lot more erotic and sexy than this to be honest. Maybe it's the differing limitations of the forms. Isn't Alan Moore's homosexuality-related poetry supposed to be a fairly dire project too?
 
 
doctorbeck
14:18 / 16.04.07
now that you mention it i agree, there was something really special going on in promethea and got emotional reactions from me for all sorts of reasons, and sensual and charged was one of them, even the sex magick issue was well done and genuinely interesting to read.

what do you all think the tabloid reaction is going to be in january 2008? i'm thinking book burning and alan moores head on a pole.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:32 / 16.04.07
Promethea used sex more sparingly, obviously, and it always seemed to me that the character reactions were more natural -- the narrative didn't judge anyone, but all the characters did, and that made the sex feel more real. The scans I've seen from Lost Girls did nothing to convince me this is worth buying or spending time on.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
14:49 / 16.04.07
So is 'Lost Girls' erm, 'effective' as adult material?

You know what I mean.

If you've written a comedy and nobody laughs then you'd have to consider it a failure, really, so as far as adult material (which, after all, is aiming for a similar, if slightly different, visceral reaction) goes, it should be similarly easy to decide whether it's been an artistic success for you, personally.

(I'm sorry about this, but somebody had to ask.)
 
 
Ticker
16:41 / 16.04.07
So is 'Lost Girls' erm, 'effective' as adult material?

I would say for the average person, no it isn't.

If for example you already enjoy comic style porn that's a start. Even then it's a sub genre event.

I personally had much fun reading it though while it holds up as on the verge of my style of porn it isn't a favorite. I keep thinking of dragging back out and rereading it but not as often as I do some of my other naughty comics.
 
 
sleazenation
21:27 / 16.04.07
Is Lost Girls intended to be 'effective' or even mass audience?

Leaving aside Death of the Author questions of the authorial intent, I read the format has a homage Late Victorian and Edwardian erotica that was reserved for the wealthier classes. I believe that Gaiman went so far as to call Lost Girls a failure as a piece of pornography on the grounds that you couldn't use it with one hand...
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:17 / 16.04.07
Moore explicitly (heh) called it pornography several times, didn't he? If it's proving to be "ineffective," as our dear old grams there suggests, that seems like a failing.
 
 
sleazenation
22:36 / 16.04.07
Well, Moore has shown a preference for the term pornography, seemingly on the grounds of its lack of pretention, but formally Lost Girls seems to bear little little in common with an issue of Razzle.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
23:56 / 16.04.07
Formally Blue Jam has little in common with Last Of The Summer Wine, but they're both still comedy.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
01:30 / 18.04.07
Well, Moore has shown a preference for the term pornography, seemingly on the grounds of its lack of pretention

Whatever else he might be worried about though, in terms of how his work's perceived, is Alan Moore really all that bothered about being considered pretentious?

Every interview I've read, anyway, would suggest that his approach is somewhat cavalier when it comes to such tawdry matters.

I'm pretty sure he'd have quite happily described 'Lost Girls' as erotica, if that was what he intended it to be.

Erotica, I suppose, being distinct from pornography in the sense that the former's aimed at inspiring a series of mild chuckles, and general air of conviviality, like a Noel Coward play, as opposed to the latter's, erm, full-on belly laugh.

Then again, I haven't ... I suppose 'read' would be the wrong word ... so 'experienced' it, perhaps.
 
 
sleazenation
18:42 / 18.04.07
Flyboy - I'm not actually convinced that Blue Jam is comedy as much as it is satire and also a series of radio segments as opposed to Last of the Summer Wine's existence as a TV programme.

AG - I think you misunderstand me - I don't think Moore gives a a toss about whether or not people consider him to be pretentious, but I do think he is interested in, for want of a better phrase, calling a spade a spade.
 
 
doctorbeck
08:03 / 19.04.07
got to say i think it fails as porn, for me anyhow, because of the objectionable nature of a lot of what is portrayed (non consensual, underage, exploitative) and certainly fails as erotica because, well it just didn't exite my mind or loins to be honest, tho the art is undeniably sumptuous in places and the pastiches good at what they are.

big, fat failure i would say.
 
 
sn00p
08:35 / 19.04.07
A few of my female friends claim it's effective as erotica as opposed to porn.

Not that i know what they mean, i'm a simple point and shoot kind of creature.
 
 
Janean Patience
09:11 / 19.04.07
The point of Moore's assertion that this is pornography is perhaps being slightly missed here. I don't think he intended to say "This is porn, it's for masturbation and like all porn has no redeeming features." His point, if I remember it correctly from the many interviews last year, was that the distinction between pornography and erotica was subjective and had been the subject of much tedious legal debate over the years. He was happier calling Lost Girls pornography and letting its artistry speak for itself than letting it be defended as erotica. The idea was to widen the horizons of pornography and introduce hardcore sex lit with literary value, which is very different from the idea that calling it porn means it's not worked if you don't "stroke the stoat" to it.

I haven't got this yet because I'm British, and even though I saw it in a Manchester store recently I'm off to New York shortly where I can get it cheaper. I do expect, based on the reaction so far, to be disappointed. Rereading the originally published instalments reminded me that I wasn't excited by them in any way. Still, it's Alan Moore.
 
 
Janean Patience
10:25 / 01.08.07
Having read this it's a strange piece of work. A lifeless first volume, a second volume suddenly infused with energy and colour, and a third volume that becomes boring and even repellent. My partner's been crawling through v3 for about a fortnight, and still hasn't finished it even though it would take about twenty minutes to do so. I'll read parts of it again but I doubt I'll reread it as a whole. It's interesting, it's impressive, but it's not necessarily much good.

The art is superb. I wasn't sure I'd like it in the initial chapters but the awkward stylisation of it, like a cross between a children's book and a stained-glass window, is something you need to get accustomed to. By the time you're deep into the characters' stories, each of which has six pages of regular panels followed by a full-page symbolic splash, I was anticipating that splash and savouring it when it came. The quality of the reproduction means it glows on the page as if backlit, a fantasy realm you can almost reach into. Gebbie adopts different styles for each of the womens' stories and sticks to them rigidly, giving each one the feel of a different children's book in which these terribly perverted tales unfold, the sexuality of the characters contained within these Victorian cages.

The characters are the problem with the book. They're like stained-glass as well; they're not really there... Obviously they're carrying a great deal of symbolic baggage. Each is an archetype: maiden, mother and crone to begin with, then the sexual roles associated with those characters, then the stories of Dorothy, Wendy and Alice which are laden with symbolism of their own even before more is ladled on by Moore. As in sexual role-playing they're not so much characters as stereotypes and they're confined by that. As in all pornography, their actions are circumscribed by the plot, or rather the sexual acts they're required for. They only come alive in the flashbacks.

And these are the main characters. The minor characters are no more than puppets. Harold Potter is a virtual automaton, the stereotype of the Victorian husband more interested in ships than sex and unmindful of his wife's passions. Rolf has only three functions; to provide a scene of foot fetishism, to provide some hot gay action, and to be a harbinger of war. The licentious hotelier is a cliche, an enabler of orgies. The characterisation is, at times, very pornographic because there isn't any. These people exist to be used as sex objects.

It may not be just because of the genre. Moore appears to be exploring a single narrow aspect of his storytelling talents with this one. The technique of double and triple meanings or entendres, where the action we're watching is commented on by narration of different events, is revived for the first time since Watchmen. That seems to be the unifying theme of the work, to create a skeleton of action and character and drape it with as many different levels of interpretation as possible. Someone on here once called Alan Moore the greatest formalist in comics and that's never truer than here. There's barely a page that isn't serving some symbolic and structural purpose. Like a stained-glass window or religious, where the positioning of each figure and the colour of their clothing has a deeper significance, this is a dance of themes and ideas only briefly punctuated with more human moments. Which kind of overshadows all the porn.

As a one-handed read, Lost Girls is not successful. Perhaps that's the nature of the genre more than anything else. Pornography is specific. This is broad. If a particular sexual act isn't one that you respond to, and especially if lesbian sex doesn't hold an erotic charge, then the sex will leave you cold. Moore compared artistic treatments of sex, and the censorship surrounding them, to our culture's treatment of violence in the interviews before this came out. The difference being that few fans of violence are, for example, hot to see two-handgun action but completely turned off by samurai swords while in porn the opposite is true. If foot fetishism does nothing for you but blowjobs do, you'll be disinterested in one chapter and turned on by another.

It's a curious work, though. Writing this has made me want to read it again. It's no masterpiece but it's a magnum opus of a kind, exhaustively complete in what it does, and certainly a kind of classic.
 
 
Janean Patience
09:18 / 02.08.07
My partner's verdict is more succinct than mine:

"Goes up its own arse. With a dildo."
 
 
doctorbeck
11:48 / 02.08.07
i think janean's past two posts are the most insightful into the books i've read

anyone else expecting a tabloid hate storm as 'self styled black magician peado comic writer defiles our fond memories of childhood heroines' alan moore publishes this in england on jan 1st next year? the article being, of course, next to a pic of 'georgeous debbie from billericay, just turned 16 this week'.
 
 
Essential Dazzler
19:46 / 18.09.07
I just visited Top Shelf's website and happened across this, "the one-and-only filmed TV segment on Lost Girls"

Streaming interview with Moore and Gebbie.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:02 / 19.12.07
Lost Girls signing at Gosh on 2nd of February.

It rather suggests that it's just the three volume slipcase edition that's being published over here, rather than the special one volume edition with extra stuff that was promised at the talk with Stewart Lee last year. Not that I would spend any more money on this, but does anyone know whether that is still being released?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:38 / 05.02.08
In preparation for the signing.
 
 
andrewdrilon
06:36 / 05.02.08
Read the whole thing, and I think I'd classify it as porn. I don't have the official definitions off the top of my head (if there are those) but isn't erotica supposed to suggest sex and dispense erotic energy in a sideways manner as opposed to porn, which functions to outright display the sex and hit you with the libido bomb?

It's infused with sophisticated historical material and literary techniques, and perhaps that's the source of the confusion? Despite those, I'd still classify it as porn. Not that it really turned me on, but bestiality and fetishist porn don't turn me on, and they're still porn.
 
 
Essential Dazzler
10:19 / 05.02.08
Doesn't the erotica/porn distinction only exist so that people can enjoy erotica and not enjoy porn?
 
 
uncle retrospective
14:21 / 05.02.08
I have to say I thought it fails both as porn and as a good read. For the porn side the most fun I had was watching the reactions of horror as my flatmates read it. The captin Hook bit is just plain repelent to me. *shudder* The whole Peter Pan stuff is nasty but insest never did anything for me.
As a read it's just not very compelling, I've gone through it once and have no plans to reread it. I'm just glad I didn't pay for it.
 
  

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