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Guantanamo suicides 'acts of war'

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We're The Great Old Ones Now

06:59 / 11.06.06

The camp commander [at Guantanamo] said the two Saudis and a Yemeni were "committed" and had killed themselves in "an act of asymmetric warfare waged against us".

Pick your jaw up off the table and think about that for a moment. Aside from the equally obvious possibility that these guys just went totally mad in the intolerable conditions of Guantanamo and took their own lives in despair (or that this is an ingenious way of pre-empting suggestions that the men were assisted into the grave by ungentle hands), what a strange and terrible thing that would be, if true: to have put a people so much at a disadvantage that their only way of waging war against you is to take their own lives, because they have no other weapon which is effective against you.

That is the logical outcome of the full spectrum dominance doctrine, of course, because it's missing a strand - excellence in ethics and governance.

If this isn't just a bizarre and ghastly piece of blame-shifting, it might actually be more important, rather than less.

08:16 / 11.06.06

Well, mate, if it's really as asymmetric as you say, why don't you, your staff and your leader all try balancing it and fight back using the same sneaky methods? Please.

08:55 / 11.06.06

President George W. Bush expressed "serious concern" about the deaths and directed that the remains be "treated humanely and with cultural sensitivity" in accordance with Muslim traditions, Press Secretary Tony Snow said. "He wants to make sure that this thing is done right from all points of view."

FFS. Why start now that they're dead?

11:32 / 11.06.06

?!?! Why couldnt they treat them humanely while alive? What about the people still there? WTF? Why arent Americans storming the fucking White House? How can the world be so fucked up Bush can steal people and put them into concentration camps with no charges indefinitely or until they die?? While people obsess on BB and the football?
Im going to have a bit of a cry then contact Amnesty.

11:40 / 11.06.06

From Wikipedia;

As of August 2003, at least 29 inmates of Camp X-Ray had attempted suicide in protest. The U.S. officials would not say why they had not previously reported the incident. After this event the Pentagon reclassified suicides as "manipulative self-injurious behaviors" because it is alleged by camp physicians that detainees do not genuinely wish to end their lives.

I am appalled at the doublethink going on here.

11:48 / 11.06.06

Starbucks has an outlet in Guantanamo Bay and say they “... refrain from taking a position on the legality of the detention centre at Guantanamo Bay”.

From the 'Save Omar' website. Omar Deghayes' family live around Brighton so it's pretty close to home for me. He's been blinded in one eye, the camp allowed Libyan interrogators to threaten him with death, and there is no evidence against him-
The only "evidence" for Omar's arrest is a video, allegedly showing Omar, from the Spanish authorities. However experts have confirmed what is seemingly apparent; that the person in the video isn't Omar.

It could be me next, or you. What can we do about it?

All Acting Regiment

14:53 / 11.06.06

Oh, this is disgusting. Bloody hell. Are people actually beleiving what the top brass have t osay about this?

What would anyone acheive by harming themselves in Guantanamo bay apart from release by death? They're in "Room 101", they have absolutely no power- what they're doing isn't manipulation because it can't have any effect on American policy. Fucking hell.

16:20 / 11.06.06

It's just sickening isn't it? Suicide as an act of war... takes my breath away that they'd even try to spin it that way. Just horrible.

16:27 / 11.06.06

Why is that so far-fetched? Aren't hunger strikes a very slow form of suicide for political purposes? If you can blow yourself up in order to prove a point you can certainly hang yourself.

I'm not arguing that these guys killed themselves because of depression or for political purposes. I'm just saying that the latter is, in my mind, quite possible.

*

17:18 / 11.06.06

I don't think it matters, Slim. I think if we've gotten to the point where three people feel the only power they have is to hang themselves in protest, we have no fucking business being outraged about the fact that they dared to go and do it.

18:33 / 11.06.06

Let me start out by saying that I would think that there ar eprobably some horrible human rights abuses at Guantanamo.

In terms of this question, I think that in this case it was an act of despair for prisoners without hope.

But I do think that suicide can be used as a weapon of war and/or political protest, even without the whole "suicide/homicide bombing" idea (I've seen both terms used, I prefer suicide bomber but I want to cover all the bases here).

And I think there is ample precedent for it.

The guy who jumps on a grenade to save the other members of his platoon takes his own life by a deliberate act for a reason, wouldn't that count as a suicide?

Or what about someone who set themself on fire or killed themself publicly to avoid being drafted and sent in to a war that they felt was unjust?

And then you could stretch that to include missions and strategies (such as the human wave) that could be considered tantamount to suicide.

Hydra vs Leviathan

19:37 / 11.06.06

Personally i'd argue that a great many of the suicides attributed to what mainstream psychology euphemistically and individualistically calls "depression" are, in fact, deeply (if often unconsciously) political acts. But maybe that's just the same argument as that of most posters here, just expressed in a superficially reverse fashion...

Why the fuck does Castro allow this place to exist? Isn't it kind of contravening shitloads of UN conventions for the US to have a base in Cuba in the first place?

20:59 / 11.06.06

The US naval base pre-dates Castro and only makes continued bad relations seem even more farcical

from wikipedia - The United States controls the land on both sides of the southern part of Guantánamo Bay (Bahía de Guantánamo in Spanish) under a lease set up in the wake of the 1898 Spanish-American War.

21:04 / 11.06.06

Bottom line: That these people died in US custody indicates that the US forces fucked up in their duty of care to their prisoners.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

21:16 / 11.06.06

Bottom line that these people died in US custody indicates that the US forces fucked up in their duty of care to their prisoners.

Completely agree. Also if suicide is to be classed as an "act of war", then it seems doubly stupid to let them do it while they're under your supervision.

21:39 / 11.06.06

Exactly. And none of this bluster from senators, presidents and military officials can hide that fact.

01:14 / 12.06.06

The bottom line does not really apply here with regards to duty of care. The prison, and the prisoners all fall outside the Geneva Convention which means America can do what they like with them. You know that the prisoners are called "enemy combatants" and not "prisoners of war" which implies too many negative connotations. Also the Americans don't want to give these "belligerents" who they have generally deemed not to be entitled to the status of prisoners of war(which would fall under the GC), but to be offenders against the law of war subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals. Since the location of the prison is in effect under American military jurisdiction, this is, I think, how they get away with it in a legal sence.

Statements like this don't do any good in the long run I believe, as all human life has some merit no matter what the ultimate demise regardless of purpose. It just shows how callous and underhanded the current American government really is.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

05:24 / 12.06.06

The prison, and the prisoners all fall outside the Geneva Convention which means America can do what they like with them.

Not true.

Geneva Convention: Article 1

The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.

Furthermore, according to a press briefing from the White House: Consistent with American values and the principles of the Geneva Convention, the United States has treated and will continue to treat all Taliban and al Qaeda detainees in Guantanamo Bay humanely and consistent with the principles of the Geneva Convention.

The Devil is in the next bit: Under Article 4 of the Geneva Convention, however, Taliban detainees are not entitled to POW status.

The U.S. created the status of 'enemy combatant' for this situation; the concept does not exist in international law. This kind of legal wriggling was anticipated by the authors of the Convention in Article 5:

The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

No such tribunal has been convened.

More information here.

09:03 / 12.06.06

Oh, FFS.
As if it wasn't bad enough. Not only was he being kept there for being too innocent to be freed, he was about to go and was too innocent to be told he was about to be freed. Spin that, you bastards.

09:08 / 12.06.06

I think the whole Geneva convention thing is a bit of a red herring here.

Doesn't matter wether or not the POWs, 'enemy combatants' or giant yellow bananas, you take someone prisoner, you have a duty of care for them whether you like it or not. You are responsible for their life.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

09:35 / 12.06.06

Yeah, well, Geneva is how that's expressed in international law. Attempts to get round it are basically people pleading special circumstances ("he hit me first, ossifer"). So it's a red herring in the same way that all good law is - it's an attempt to codify what you probably ought to do already.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

14:57 / 12.06.06

Let's see what the viewpoint of the evil people is: “Do they still get their 72 virgins?”

Shoot 'em all.

Oh, looks like the "Al Qaeda Olympic Synchronized Suicide Team" just won another gold medal.

The death of any human is a loss. Here is the but though, these are not humans.

19:41 / 12.06.06

Oh, I see.

These men were "terrorists". We know this for certain, in spite of the fact that they have never been charged, have never had a fair trial, and one of them was on the verge of being released.

Anyone stateside up for an armed insurrection?

Take back this country from the yahoos...

21:44 / 12.06.06

Anyone stateside up for an armed insurrection?

Take back this country from the yahoos...

I'm biting my tongue but I'd like everyone to notice me doing so.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:50 / 12.06.06

Well, rather than doing that, which must be awfully uncomfortable, why not explain to us your perspective on the thinking behind the statement made regarding the suicides of the inmates at Guantanamo Bay, Slim?

00:17 / 13.06.06

This is so terrible and tragic. I'm finding it difficult to put the feelings into terms. From the way these people are brought in, treated, spoken about (as if they're just decisions and poor ones at that) as well as the news that the one person who committed suicide was up for a release in the near future. Ugh.

I would like to say that the quotes from Little Green Footballs up there come from a well-known bastion of the worst kind of thinking. It doesn't reflect the overall mood of Americans in a many ways and we should be careful not to cast everyone in a similar light. It might not have been intended this way, but I want to mention it for reasons of clarity.

01:33 / 13.06.06

Well, rather than doing that, which must be awfully uncomfortable

It is. Thank you for your understanding.

why not explain to us your perspective on the thinking behind the statement made regarding the suicides of the inmates at Guantanamo Bay, Slim?

Which statement? There's been a couple highlighted by the media. I think it's entirely possible that these men killed themselves for political reasons, suicide hanging as opposed to suicide bombing. If that's the case then it's an ingenious way to turn the tables on their captors.

I think the U.S. government/military instantly tried to cover its ass, probably before officials even knew the details of the case. As sleaze pointed out, those running the prison failed in their duty when they allowed the prisoners to kill themselves. It's another terrible blow to U.S. credibility.

This is from the BBC regarding the 3 prisoners:

The Pentagon named the prisoner who had been recommended for transfer as 30-year-old Saudi Arabian Mani Shaman Turki al-Habardi Al-Utaybi.

Two detainees at Camp Four, Camp Delta, Guantanamo base
Governments and rights groups have deplored the deaths

He was a member of a banned Saudi militant group, the defence department said.

The other two men who died on Saturday morning were named as Ali Abdullah Ahmed, 28, from Yemen, and Yassar Talal al-Zahrani, 21, another Saudi Arabian.

Ahmed was a mid- to high-level al-Qaeda operative who had participated in a long-term hunger strike from late 2005 to May, and was "non-compliant and hostile" to guards, the Pentagon said.

Zahrani, 21, was a "front-line" Taleban fighter who helped procure weapons for use against US and coalition forces in Afghanistan, according to the department.

Assuming that the Pentagon is telling the truth, does this make government statements more or less plausible? Is it likely that a weapons procurer and a Saudi militant would hang themselves for political reasons and not psychological ones? Frankly, I think either one is possible. I wish the guards hadn't fucked up because now regardless of the guilt or innocence of the prisoners, justice can't be served.

02:30 / 13.06.06

Of course, it's debatable that justice can be served in a place like Gitmo...

ONLY NICE THINGS

05:47 / 13.06.06

There certainly didn't seen to be a mad rush _towards_ justice being done, certaimly - for example, because there was no trial procedure, we are reliant on the word of a profoundly embarrassed administration that Abbdullah Ahmed was a "mid to high level" al Qaeda operative, or that al-Zahrani was a front-line Taliban fighter. Any corroboration of that? Witness statements, accounts of their activities?

While we're here, I think there's an important difference betweeen suicide bombing and "suicide hanging" that your comparison fails to take into account, it being whether or not other people die. Killing oneself is traditionall y seen as an effective form of assymetric warfare primarily if one has any intention to damage the enemy's manpower or infrastructure. Otherwise, it's not really warfare, now, is it?

07:04 / 13.06.06

U.S. credibility

Ha! Nice one, Slim.

Seriously though, I find it hard to beleive that anyone would kill themselves for political reasons alone and I think it displays the inherent lack of respect for human life in this US government that they would even consider spinning it this way.

Perhaps these poor bastards felt the only power they had left was the power to end their lives and if that caused controversy about Guantanamo then so much the better? God knows, after however many years of torture with no end in sight I would probably feel the same way.

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:01 / 13.06.06

Seriously though, I find it hard to beleive that anyone would kill themselves for political reasons alone

Oh, I don't think that's unbelievable at all. Compare the self-immolation of Buddhist monks in protest at the Diem administration. What I do find hard to believe is that it was done for PR purposes, that it was an act of asymmetric warfare. I'm also unsure as to what the committing of a haram act would do to "further the jihadi cause", but I'm ready to be enlightened. I'm interested to know how Colleen Graffy knows that these three men did not value their lives or the lives of those around them, and why exactly the latter is relevant. Again, an attempt to suggest that a brown person's suicide is always a badly-equipped suicide bombing?

08:08 / 13.06.06

If that's the case then it's an ingenious way to turn the tables on their captors.

i dont think the tables have been turned so much as shunted a wee bit so they make that little 'squuueeeunk' noise on the floor.
it's a pretty fucking huge table to turn, what with the billion dollar war machine and all.

i agree it could have been political, but, like id, i don't think it matters.

i agree that if we've gotten to the point where three people feel the only power they have is to hang themselves in protest, we have no fucking business being outraged about the fact that they dared to go and do it.

on insurrection, i am beginning to wonder just how long this frog takes to boil.

08:16 / 13.06.06

"Compare the self-immolation of Buddhist monks in protest at the Diem administration."

I see your point, I suppose I just can't imagine being suicidal without also despairing. Like I said, perhaps ther was an element of both motivations, either way it's still a tragedy.

14:36 / 13.06.06

As a citizen of the U.S. I'd like to apologize to the civilized world, point out that we're presently ruled by an essentially unelected and unrepresentative junta, and note that many Americans are disgusted and appalled by the actions of the Bush adminstration.

I'll do my part to change our government through voting, funding and supporting left-wing (or at least liberal) candidates, and political protest -- if that actually makes any difference. But right now I'm just hoping for the day when Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, etc. are on trial at the Hague for their many war crimes.

I'm also hoping that if this mess continues I can move to a genuinely civilized nation before it's too late.

15:13 / 13.06.06

Ei Evski, considering the current warmongeinrg administration charge probably stole both elections and have great (not total, but great) control over mainstream media, I don't thing the American People in general is to be blames - even those who actually believe it's all done "for the greater good" of "freedom" and "democracy".

With a few exceptions, I reckon.

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