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Pornography vs. Erotica vs. Art

 
 
TeN
22:14 / 10.06.06
this thread stems from a desire to not completely derail the "Writing erotica" thread in Creation with [the very interesting, but a bit off-topic] discussion of the distinction between "porn" and "erotica."

from that thread:
"The difference between 'erotica' and 'pornography' is as spurious and subjective as the difference between 'literature' and 'fiction', or the difference between 'art' and 'entertainment' - the former set of descriptors are what some people start calling the latter once they decide they like it enough and want to make it sound important and serious and respectable."
- Flyboy

so... is there really a clear distinction? or is it merely a matter of seperating oneself from "smut" by claiming your particular brand of pornography to be on a higher level.

I also brought up the point that "if you get too conceptual [...] or put too much emphasis on the awkwardness or grim realities of sex [...] it stops being arousing. This isn't necesarilly a bad thing, of course, I just don't think you'd be able to qualify it as erotica at that point."

so... can a work manage to arouse the audience while simultaneously incorporating deeper themes (both related to sex and not)? is it a requirement for erotica to arouse? is art allowed to arouse and still be considered art?

I've thought of a few examples of works which might make good case studies, or be worth discussing in this context:
● J.G. Ballard's Crash - about a group of people who have a sexual fetish for car crashes; reads like a cross between Penthouse, a car owner's manual, and a gruesome medical report.
Egon Schiele - his candid, expressionistic paintings of intercourse and [sometimes underage] nudes had him arrested.
Last Tengo in Paris and The Dreamers by Bernardo Bertolucci - (I haven't seen either, so I can't comment)
● the films of Larry Clark - (same as above)
Carolee Schneemann's short film "Fuses" (available for free on Ubuweb) - in her own words: "...I wanted to see if the experience of what I saw would have any correspondence to what I felt-- the intimacy of the lovemaking... And I wanted to put into that materiality of film the energies of the body, so that the film itself dissolves and recombines and is transparent and dense-- as one feels during lovemaking..."
le Marquis de Sade - perhaps the most infamous pornographic writer of all time
Shunga - 17th-19th century Japanese erotic woodcuts
Satyricon (and Fellini's adaptation) - a first century Roman satire of hedonism, "regarded as the first example of what was to become the modern novel"; (I've only seen the film)
Ada or Ardor and Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov - (sadly I've yet to read any Nabokov)
● Andy Warhol's film "Blow Job" - a 35-minute static shot of a man's face as he receives fellatio
● Andy Warhol's film "Kiss" - "Warhol featured a group of his Factory regulars performing the titled act in extreme close-ups. Mixing genders, sexual orientations, and races [...] Warhol reserved the film’s only significant camera movement (a zoom out) to confirm the gender of the participants in the work’s first gay sequence." (I haven't seen either of the Warhol films)
● Diderot's first novel, Les bijoux indiscrets - about a Sultan with a magic ring that can make women's genitals talk; (haven't read this one either); according to the Disinfo Book of Lists: "Being a French genius, he couldn't resist adding literary criticism and political satire..."



Some other threads that might be worth taking a look at:
literate smut
SBR: Porn in The Ideal World (Possibly NSFW)
Pornography, Erotica, Sexuality, Government, Law
Porn Free: Attitudes to Pornography
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:39 / 11.06.06
is art allowed to arouse and still be considered art?

The Dreamers is art rather than erotica though it has shades of that genre running through it. I think though for something to be termed in that way it has to centre around the erotic to the extent that it overshadows other parts of the story. I'd argue quite strongly that while the relationship between the twins and Michael Pitt's character is certainly the crux of the story there are too many other questions, often of a political and cultural nature for it to be the entire focus of the story. The 1968 protest backdrop is the beginning and end of the story and it infringes too much on the substance of the film to leave the audience with the impression that it is primarily erotica rather than art.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
01:46 / 11.06.06
I'm not certainly I'd classify Last Tango in Paris as either erotica or porn, actually. It's explicit but manages to be about so much more than a sex scenes, and they always struck me as being more meant to disturb than titillate, although I gather this isn't necessarily a common reaction. Mind you, I don't particularly like the movie on the whole other than the little tidbit that the colour scheme and lighting choices were meant to emulate a Francis Bacon painting, but I don't think that affects my definition too much.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:30 / 11.06.06
Hmm, maybe the "art" vs "craft/design" thing comes into play here. A chair, however nice a chair it is, is designed with one specific purpose- to be a chair. A good chair is a good example of the craft of chair-making. It's not supposed to facilitate philosophy or trigger emotions, it's meant to support a human arse comfortably. Whereas a thing that's meant to be art will of course include some sort of craft (painting or sculpting etc) in order to exist physically but will also create a space where we're forced to challenge stuff and swill ideas and emotions around.

So, is pornography/erotica "not art" not because of it's sexual content but because it's simply designed to get people off? Is it "not art" because it's a piece of craftsmanship working with one specific purpose?

And from that, I suppose that a piece which is less designed purely to get people off and more meant to ask questions travels along a line from pornography to art?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:32 / 11.06.06
Add to that of course that a big part of craft is in creating something that the consumer will want to buy- creating a node in the capitalist system...art is supposed to show a way out of that, but obviously has to work within this system as well.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:35 / 12.06.06
I think there's a definite problem with defining cultural productions via 'what they were designed for'. No piece of writing, music or art is ever going to be read purely as its designer(s) intended (besides, some designers may not intend a particular thing to be read as anything in particular). So, with a chair.... So, with sex writing/film.

Me, I think the line btw porn and erotica is about bourgeois Western class values: porn is thought to be 'base' because it engages purely with sexual practices without encasing them in a network of character motivations, political intrigue, consistent plot etc. 'Erotica' is porn that requires itself to fabricate another reason for existence, other than arousing pleasure: thus it is regarded as "cultured" or "civilised", and thus it circulates differently, and is read by different people. I reckon that maybe even the tendency among middle-class folks to find 'intelligent erotica' more arousing than 'base porn' has something to do with how our desires are shaped by class-based cultural expectations. (And, of couse, the converse illicit pleasure at finding really basic porn pleasurable because it's 'dumb', or 'plotless'.)

Porn can be very smart; when porn is smart, I think, it's usually not heteronormative. (Even if it features a man and a woman doing it.)

I think also that the meaning of 'porn' changes depending on context. For instance, when I find myself derogating a film as 'porno', I'm usually talking about something that exploits the sexuality of its characters in a pretty sterotypically heteronormative way. For me that includes pretty much all of Bernardo Bertolucci's work -- but not Pasolini. And I don't mean porn as something 'not intelligent', because Bertolucci tries very hard to be 'erotic' rather than 'pornographic'.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
04:00 / 12.06.06
Very good points, there. I suppose that brings up the question of how much one should go and look for political etc works as opposed to "base" ones? Is it a duty?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:55 / 12.06.06
I think you're confusing two axes there, Legba. Disco can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think "base" is being set up as the antithesis of "political" at all...
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:44 / 12.06.06
Er, no. My point was really a variation on Fly's theme that the distinction between porn and erotica is spurious. In citing Bertolucci I was trying to point out that what's generally known as 'erotica' can be very exploitative and apolitical/depoliticised: in fact, that's often a condition of its production.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:11 / 12.06.06
Ahh, thanks guys. So to recap, porn = erotica and erotica = porn- the distinction is false. Further, what's often called "erotica" (implying political/progressive status) can be just as problematic/apolitical as what's often called porn.

So can "porn" be political/positive then? Something like Loaded or Reader's Wives is obviously right-wing, specifically anti-feminist, but can, say a nude calendar from Gay Times be a positive political statement?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:28 / 12.06.06
It could be. I don't know if it is necessarily - maybe it depends where you hang it (seriously!) - and it would depend who you asked, too. It's been said before but it bears repeating that porn is one of the big, BIG divisive issues amongst even the strands of feminism, queer activism and leftism that are otherwise in agreement. So what does and doesn't qualify as a "positive political statement" is going to be a hotly contested issue.

The other thing to bear in mind is that, being aware that the term 'erotica' is more palatable to some, there are people who deliberately label their work or that of others as such even when it's as blunt and to-the-point as anything that might be called 'porn'. See much of what's posted on Literotica.com, funnily enough, but not during work hours. Conversely, there are pro-porn activists and authors who choose to call their work and that of others 'porn' even though it meets the criteria many people would (erroneously or not) require for 'erotica', in order to make a point.
 
 
matthew.
14:40 / 12.06.06
I believe Flyboy has said it perfectly with that second paragraph. I have very little to add to this thread.

Erotica is just a high-falutin' word, a ten dollar word, to use two Ben Grimm sayings. I think that erotica and porn are really one and the same at this point.

Erotica is what people call it when they're embarrassed that they wrote porn.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
15:57 / 12.06.06
Two links which may be helpful, neither are safe for work but shouldn't have anything in to particularly offend readers at home: The first is Alan Moore talking about his new book, Lost Girls, which he classifies as pornography. The second is a blog post asking a pretty fundamental question about filmed pornography, specifically how you draw a line between pornography and prostitution when 'you can have sex with 95% of performers as long as you have a clean STD test from AIM*, a camera and enough money to cover their rate'.

* Adult Industry Medical.
 
 
TeN
17:58 / 12.06.06
"It's been said before but it bears repeating that porn is one of the big, BIG divisive issues amongst even the strands of feminism, queer activism and leftism that are otherwise in agreement."
great point. I think it really is very important to keep that in mind when discussing porn/erotica's relationship to politics.

much has been said in this thread about the difference, or rather, lack there of, between erotica and porn, but what about the second issue at hand: "can a work manage to arouse the audience while simultaneously incorporating deeper themes (both related to sex and not)? is it a requirement for erotica to arouse? is art allowed to arouse and still be considered art?" I'm curious to see your opinions, especially in relation to some of the works I listed.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:03 / 12.06.06
can a work manage to arouse the audience while simultaneously incorporating deeper themes (both related to sex and not)?

Yes - and that work could be either porn/erotica, or it could be a piece of work that was not intended primarily to arouse, but had that effect either as an intentional secondary effect or completely unintentionally.

is it a requirement for erotica to arouse?

Interesting question. I'd say the intention is the only thing that matters - if a piece of art or entertainment fails in all it sets out to do, I prefer to still call it by whatever genre it intended to be part of - a horror movie that scares nobody is still a horror movie, it's jus not a very good one. It's a requirement for erotica to intend to arouse, I think - mind you, even that is probably up for debate. If you write something that's sexually explicit and entirely about sex, but don't intend it to arouse, what have you made? Hmm.

is art allowed to arouse and still be considered art?

But of course! Unless you're a puritan.
 
 
TeN
00:02 / 13.06.06
"If you write something that's sexually explicit and entirely about sex, but don't intend it to arouse, what have you made? Hmm."
exactly... that's what I was trying to get at with some of the examples I posted.
I highly doubt Ballard wanted people to be aroused by Crash... it's more likely he wanted them to be disgusted.
and yet the work deals almost exclusively with sex... you can't get past a page without some sexual reference or statement being made. an obscenity court or a censor board might consider the work "pornographic," but can it really be consider pornography? I say no, for the simple reason that it doesn't try to arouse its audience (indeed, quiet the opposite).
 
 
Disco is My Class War
03:37 / 13.06.06
TeN, what on earth makes you assume that in Crash, J.G. Ballard wanted to disgust people, rather than arousing them? Or that the distinction between 'disgust' and 'arousal' is so very clear?
 
 
TeN
21:16 / 13.06.06
well... you are right. it's more complicated than that, and I'm oversimplifying

I think what he might have been trying to do is two-fold:
first - to point out the growing public infatuation with technology and death and the relationship between the two. in many ways its the same subject Warhol addressed with his disaster paintings ("Red Car Crash", "Purple Jumping Man", "Orange Disaster," etc). the book also explores our culture's obsession with celebrity. in Crash, all of these infatuations/obsessions are made overtly sexual... possibly an attempt by Ballard to reveal what they truly are (subconciously, at least).
second - I think he most likely did want to arouse his readers. that's why so much of the book is written in the style of a smut book or the Penthouse letters or something of that nature. but I think he wanted them to be disgusted or ashamed by this arousal. he does this by writing "normal" sex scenes in the exact same way he writes about, say, penetration of a car crash wound, or the attractiveness of a dead body on a windshield. so in effect, he purposely does blur the line between disgust and arousal. I don't think that's the same thing as saying he wanted people to get off on the idea of car crashes as a sexual fetish though.

at least that's my take on it.

it's also possible he's just crazy. one of the publishers he sent the novel to wrote "This author is beyond psychiatric help. Do Not Publish." and he did name the protagonist (who harbors these "perverse fetishes") after himself.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
08:23 / 14.06.06
Are the things that disgust us always healthy? Some people might claim to be "disgusted" by homosexuality- surely that's a social construction, far less natural than the disgust that people all around the world (according to a BBC documentary I saw) feel for earwax and blood and so forth?

Equally, though there's a sensible reason for avoiding poo and piss (disease) where there isn't one for avoiding homosexuality, can't a desire for cleanliness be damaging in it's own way, if it goes to extremes?

So maybe Ballard was using a "disgusting" subject matter to make us examine what we find disgusting- and that revelation could be classed as "arousing"? There's a thread on here somewhere about the erotic nature of calling bullshit on authority's lies/the erotic nature of release from misconceptions...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:32 / 14.06.06
There used to be a whole thread about the concept of "squick", years ago, before the great burn, and it's come up a few times since. What's interesting to me is that for some people, the concept of "squick" - an almost/actual involuntary, almost/actual physical sensation of unease or disgust - is intended to be a way of talking about such a reaction without being morally judgmental or politically conservative. But it seems to... well, struggle... to stay that way.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
19:31 / 14.06.06
Legba: So can "porn" be political/positive then? Something like Loaded or Reader's Wives is obviously right-wing, specifically anti-feminist, but can, say a nude calendar from Gay Times be a positive political statement?

Have you ever heard of Candida Royalle? She's a good example of porn=good, and was actually invited to become a member of the American Association of Sex Educators, Therapists and Counsellors on the basis that the porn films that she produced through Femme Productions promoted positive sexuality.
 
 
Jackie Susann
21:38 / 15.06.06
I am just going to post a quote, because it expresses what I think better than I can, if that's not too much of a cop out. It's by Diana Cage, from the preface to a collection she edited called Bottoms Up:

Of course writing is a sex act - but so is covering girls in batter at splosh parties. The dirtiness is all in the intent.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
08:45 / 16.06.06
There used to be a whole thread about the concept of "squick", years ago, before the great burn, and it's come up a few times since. What's interesting to me is that for some people, the concept of "squick" - an almost/actual involuntary, almost/actual physical sensation of unease or disgust - is intended to be a way of talking about such a reaction without being morally judgmental or politically conservative. But it seems to... well, struggle... to stay that way.

Can you expand on this, Fly? I'm not quite sure what you mean...
 
 
alas
14:40 / 23.06.06
I'd like to briefly return to this...

Hmm, maybe the "art" vs "craft/design" thing comes into play here. A chair, however nice a chair it is, is designed with one specific purpose- to be a chair. A good chair is a good example of the craft of chair-making. It's not supposed to facilitate philosophy or trigger emotions, it's meant to support a human arse comfortably. Whereas a thing that's meant to be art will of course include some sort of craft (painting or sculpting etc) in order to exist physically but will also create a space where we're forced to challenge stuff and swill ideas and emotions around.

Someone once said something like "Art is what white men produce; Craft is what women and natives make." If Picasso made a teapot (and I'm pretty sure I saw some of his teapots and definitely saw some of his posters advertising a festival in the South of France), we would decide that it's creating a space for exploring ideas, and its tea-making function immediately becomes secondary.

Feminist scholars and postcolonial scholars, in other words, would ask that we explore the ways that women and non-whites always wind up on the devalued side of so many of these binary conditions. What kind of culture wants/needs there to be a bright line between the utilitarian objects of daily life and a "transcendent" space called "art"? Who benefits from this distinction?

Not to pick on you, but look at the implicit binaries in your example: engaging the mind (art) is more important than engaging the body (chair). This plays out in the porn/erotica/art distinction in obvious ways: if the 'mind' is not engaged in a way that is recognized as 'higher' the object or experience must not be 'art' (or 'erotica').

But, again, a lot of postcolonial and feminist scholars would have us look at, for instance, your chair. Not all cultures produce chairs. I'm going to be lazy and not check this fact, but I recently read somewhere that, actually, Western chairs derive from thrones. They wouldn't have been found in peasant homes in early Europe. And what do they do? They elevate us from the floor, from the earth, and--if no one else has one or if the biggest one is put up on some stairs and has a bigger back to it--it elevates us above everyone else in the room and marks us as the one in command.

So we need to ask: why do some cultures repeatedly and across genres repeat actions and create structures to separate them from the earth? What kinds of cultures tend to do that? Might such structures be related to hierarchical power structures? Does it have anything to do with where their philosophical systems have traditionally told them (male) divine power lies, and where (female) death and inertia is? Or are those claims too broad?

We can't ask those questions very well if we've decided that "chair" is simply an almost "natural" or at best "utilitarian" object, one that does not put us in a place to swill ideas and emotions around. Put it on the "craft" side, and it is trivial. Domestic. Simple. Not art. Not elevated.

Likewise, pornography is partly discomforting because it engages and serves the body, and specifically serves its sexual functions. It also, one must add, has been traditionally used to reify 'male' and 'female' behaviors; it has traditionally imagined a het male viewer and most would say that traditional porn has reified and enforced a white, het, male worldview, for men of various classes (Hustler, in the US, deliberately targeted and appealed to working class men, for example, while Playboy presented itself as being written by and for "sophisticates").

Pornography has, therefore, tended to objectify women in problematic ways and as an industry it has exploited women workers. This has led many feminists to reject pornography, tout suite, as inherently tainted, as furthering the goals and aims of patriarchy--Catherine MacKinnon and our much-maligned friend Andrea Dworkin, in particular. But many other feminists would point out that these exact same claims could be leveled against "art", and that the art (erotica) /porn distinction, like the art/craft one, is rooted in masculinist assumptions about what's important, and often stop us from asking the kinds I was asking above about the chair. Candida Royalle and others were early, active validators of porn for women (and non-hets) challengers to the way porn business has been done, on many levels: treating workers with respect and challenging gender stereotyping in porn.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:58 / 23.06.06
You make great points, Alas. Just a few things I'd like to clear up.

If Picasso made a teapot (and I'm pretty sure I saw some of his teapots and definitely saw some of his posters advertising a festival in the South of France), we would decide that it's creating a space for exploring ideas, and its tea-making function immediately becomes secondary.

Would we? Which is to say, I wouldn't and I don't think it's fair to say that everyone would make that decision, although I can see some people would. People in the teapot
industry of, say, Stoke, might look at it as a teapot first, whereas someone interested in art might look at "idea" side of it first. Then again, someone from a monastery in Tibet who hadn't heard of Picasso might look at it as a teapot. Or am I missing something?

I think what you're saying might be put better as "Both Picasso and women in Africa make pottery, but we're conditioned to look for philosophy only in Picasso's pots."

Feminist scholars and postcolonial scholars, in other words, would ask that we explore the ways that women and non-whites always wind up on the devalued side of so many of these binary conditions.

I'm sure this is a process that happens but I'd like to add that I for one don't actually think this value judgement (art = better than craft) is a valid one, or that the distinction is at all naturally concrete- just look at Egyptian funerary paintings, Temple architecture etc- text, poetry and prose, is incorporated into the object- the literature is part of the craft.

What kind of culture wants/needs there to be a bright line between the utilitarian objects of daily life and a "transcendent" space called "art"? Who benefits from this distinction?

Absolutely. I was looking at a Maori hut earlier and seeing the massively intricate carvings that had gone into it- would it be right to say that their histories were written into the hut itself, whereas we have to go to a school or college to learn these things?
_________


So, have we got any closer to a consensus, then?

My feeling now (quite different to before this thread) is that we create materials, and we put them into categories. However, what we create, and what categories we put them in, is all arbitrary- cultural rather than natural. Anything we create and any category we put it into can be problematic. That sound about right?
 
 
TeN
05:59 / 25.06.06
that sounds about right, Legba

I think the whole art vs craft, post-colonial/feminist scholar business (although related to the issue of categorizing "art," or more broadly, manmade objects) is a bit off-topic, yet I'd like to throw in my breif two cents anyway:
I have to say I agree with you from a historical standpoint, but the fact of the matter is, a lot has changed since the time of the invention of the chair, and even since the age of Picasso. I think today scholars and art critics realize that A) the difference between art and craft is not dependent on the creator, and B) that difference is becoming increasingly blurred. take Charles and Ray Eames, for instance - highly regarded and praised, but (outside of their film works) never regarded as "artists," only as "designers." Also, the analysis you give of the chair, while fascinating, does nothing to further your point. Anything can be analyzed to such an extent, but it doesn't change the fact that a chair is utilitarian.... necesary, perhaps not, but still utilitarian.

But again, I think most of us would agree with Legba's statment that the lines are arbitrary.

I'm still curious to here everyone's thoughts however on the second issue of this thread, which hasn't been discussed as much: the role of arousal.
Do you think that having a work of "art" arouse diminishes it's emotional or intellectual impact? On the flip side, does having a work of "pornography" explore intellectual and emotional themes make it less arousing? Can you give some examples of works which manage to strike a good balance?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:28 / 25.06.06
Do you think having a work that arouses diminishes the intellectual or emotional impact?

"Arousal" is an interesting idea and again it's interesting to look at how people have reacted to various works.

When Mary Shelley's book Frankenstein came out, for example, it was derided because it "aroused" a "creeping sensation" (the first use of the term, and a negative, where it is now a positive) in the reader. Likewise, the works of Percy Shelley, Blake, Byron, Mendelsohn, et al- all the romantics in all the fields were criticised for producing works that were capable of arousing furious feelings, lustful feelings- the critics weren't quite sure if it was a Satanic or Catholic phenomenon but either way they weren't happy with it.

So "arousal" does not mean only sexual arousal- in fact as far as I'm concerned, "intellectual and emotional impact" is "arousal". Arousal is when the viewer is shaken out of boredom and undergoes some sort of chemical change- we might interpret this change as variously emotional, or sexual, or intellectual, but it's the same process whatever we call it.

So, yes to your question. Every good work is arousing, basically.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
10:56 / 26.06.06
A good example, I think, of a work that's simultaneously intellectually stimulating and arousing: Fanny Hill by John Cleland.

I'd say alas' brilliant excavation of the politics of chairs is right on the money, actually, and on topic. So, some contemporary scholars and art critics might 'agree' that the distinction between what's defined as 'art' and what's defined as 'craft' is slowly diminishing. But the distinction is still canonical, right?THInking that there was originally a distinction still install that distinction as historical/hegemonic. alas, you're reminding me of Marx and his queer tables, which might nbe a good inroad -- an analysis of porn/erotica as commodities -- if I get a spare moment soon.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:34 / 26.06.06
Yeah, the post-col stuff was OTM as far as I'm concerned.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:09 / 26.06.06
Back on arousal - there's another member floating around who knows a lot more about this than I, but if I recall correctly the Victorian sensation novel relied on shocking statements and words, often in capitals and placed at the end of chapters. You know, SHE HAD KILLED HER HUSBAND or A CHILD BORN OUT OF WEDLOCK, sort of thing. In modern pornography, a similar effect is striven for with the repetition of "money shot" words and phrases, I believe. That's a formal decision to achieve a specific, titillatory effect - I imagine that you might find something similar in Fanny Hill, although it's been a while since I read it.
 
 
TeN
03:48 / 19.10.06
I'm bumping this thread because I'm currently reading Roland Barthes' Camera Lucida and was reminded of this thread by two passages, which I'll quote for you here:

"Another unary photograph is the pornographic photograph (I am not saying the erotic photograph: the erotic is a pornographic that has been disturbed, fissured). Nothing more homogeneous than a pornographic photograph. It is always a naive photograph, without intention and without calculation. Like a shop window which shows only one illuminated piece of jewelry, it is completely constituted by the presentation of one thing: sex: no secondary, untimely object ever manages to half conceal, delay, or distract . . . A proof a contrario: Mapplethorpe shifts his close-ups of genitalia from the pornographic to the erotic by photographing the fabric of underwear at very close range: the photograph is no longer unary, since I am interested in the texture of the material" (41-2)

"Pornography ordinarily represents the sexual organs, making them into a motionless object (a fetish), flattered like an idol that does not leave its niche; for me, there is no punctum in the pornographic image; at most it amuses me (and even then, boredom follows quickly). The erotic photograph, on the contrary (and this is its very condition), does not make the sexual organs into a central object; it may very well not show them at all; it takes the spectator outside its frame, and it is there that I animate this photograph and that it animates me." (57-9)

some of his vocabulary ("studium" and "punctum" for instance) might be confusing out of context of the book as a whole, and it'd be impossible for me to give you an adequate summary, but I think he makes some interesting points nonetheless.
 
 
Ticker
13:09 / 19.10.06
TeN my impression of the above is that the porn shot is a kin to a biology shot, visual information about a process/thing, but the erotic shot is the one which contains the loaded and directed gaze?
 
 
TeN
14:31 / 19.10.06
interesting take, xk. I don't think that's what Barthes intended, but it's interesting to look at those statements in the context of "the gaze."
Barthes isn't saying that pornography only "conveys information" - obviously it can ellicit emotional response as well, and in fact is intended to (if sexual arousal is to be taken as an emotion; and why not? is not lust an emotion?)
I don't necesarilly agree with Barthes, but I think his argument is that what seperates the pornographic from the erotic is that the erotic does more than merely portray sex... it has a punctum.
to understand what exactly the punctum is, you'd have to read the entire book (and even then you probably wouldn't be entirely clear, as Barthes dances around it, but never really gives a clear definition haha). but it's something that Barthes uses to form an overarching theory of photography (his goal being to seperate the photograph from semiotics - to make the claim that there is something in the photograph that goes beyond "meaning")
 
  
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