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Social Anxiety Disorder/Social Phobias

  
  

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*
18:26 / 29.05.06
Personality disorders occasionally come up on Barbelith (with astonishing regularity on Big Brother threads, for instance) and related reading has got me curious about the spectrum of avoidant personality disorders and social anxiety or phobia. I don't know much about this issue, and I'm hoping people with relevant backgrounds will correct me where I'm going wrong in my thinking about this sort of thing.

Generally, I am wondering about to what degree some social anxiety is normal, and at what point it is considered pathological. I suspect that this is one of those psychological disorders which is somewhat controversial, and I'd like to hear more about the controversy. I also have more personal concerns about this issue, because like I imagine many people have probably also done, when I heard about social anxiety disorder I wondered if it might apply to me.

I would say, speaking purely non-clinically, that I am a shy person. But I've worked hard to overcome shyness and be able to interact with people relatively freely. I can even be relatively fluent in public speaking, although it involves some amount of (again, non-clinical) dissociation from my emotional state. I suspect that social anxiety disorder and social phobias, to be diagnosed, need to noticeably impair one's functioning in society, and I suppose my functioning is not impaired. But I think I'd be functioning better if I weren't irrationally concerned, to the point of fixation, with avoiding appearing awkward to others, avoiding embarrassment, trying to make sure no one is offended by my behavior, etc.

Until now I figured this preoccupation was normal. And maybe it is, but I'm beginning to have my doubts. When I'm showering, for instance, and I hear one of my housemates washing their hands at the sink, it probably isn't a good sign that I feel panicky and nervous about whether or not I will have to interact with them when I'm leaving the bathroom and take my time dressing to see if they will leave, all the while rehearsing potential interactions so I don't seem like an idiot if I do have to talk to them. I'm realizing that at least half of my housemates think I'm an unfriendly person because I avoid being in rooms with lots of people. On the other hand, although it takes a lot of courage to go to parties, I do; although it scares me shitless to talk at council, I do it all the time; although I get knots in my stomach and cold sweats thinking about talking to people I think I might have a conflict with, I do it anyway.

So. Any 'lithers want to talk about social anxiety or shyness, either from a clinical or non-clinical perspective? Disclosure: Part of my motivation is trying to figure out if I should go to a professional about this. While I probably shouldn't base any part of that decision on comparing myself to others— particularly not on Barbelith because you're all freaks anyway— well, I am.
 
 
Red Concrete
21:30 / 29.05.06
I hear you. I've always assumed it's normal too.. or never clinically abnormal anwyay. Not wanting to leave the house, awkward talking to anyone (without a little social lubricant), blurting out the craziest things due to the nerves. I think it's made worse by the fact that I constantly make eye contact with people. Not in a bad or scary way, it just happens a lot.

So yes, it amounts to a feeling of social inadequacy, but I wouldn't necesesarily see it as a bad thing. In fact it's quite funny sometimes. Recently I even used it as a topic of conversation with a girl (one that I was trying to get rid of... "Yes, I hate people, generally speaking. I don't like making friends - I have one or two and that's enough. I wouldn't leave the house if I could help it." etc.)

I have a good friend with who was sent to a kind of public speaking/proper enunciation/expression type class when he was younger. I'd say it helped him a lot. I would recommend an evening class in public speaking or something similar, rather than Prozac. (unless you can get CBT on the NHS, can you? that would probably be a bit of a laugh).
 
 
ibis the being
22:28 / 29.05.06
I've wondered about this as well, id. Though the social/friend/fun aspect can be a little depressing or sad-making at times, it's generally something I've learned to live with and work around... but at times I wonder if the [whatever degree of] social anxiety I have holds me back in my career, which would be more seriously troubling.

The form that social anxiety takes in my life is mainly in avoidance, never answering my phone, never calling anyone, putting off returning important (job-related) calls for too long. I know I've lost friends just due to (what I'm sure they perceive as) lack of effort. It's hard to wrap my head around exactly what it is that holds me back from reaching out to friends - it doesn't feel like fear so much as stress, like having teeth pulled to have to talk to people. The thing you said about lingering in the shower to avoid chatting with a roommate rings true with me. Since I own my own business, these habits of mine can be really problematic - I have a really hard time asking for payment even when it's late & the client has likely just forgot, and I'm loathe to speak my mind even when I'm sure I have something valuable to contribute. A good part of my business is being likeable and seeming competent, but I think that more often I appear shy, reserved, quiet, and sometimes unfriendly, rude, snobbish, or plumb weird.

I would say, though, if counseling or therapy is at all available and practical for you, I don't think you need to be sure you have a clinical case in order to seek help. Rather, therapy might help you figure out if that is the case... and if not, would still be beneficial.
 
 
matthew.
22:45 / 29.05.06
It's not that I'm shy.... I sort of like people. The funny and fun ones, that is. But, for some reason, any new situation or experience fills with me with a Lovecraftian dread. The one time I had to go pay a parking ticket, I thought I was going to be fed to a spaghetti monster.

Really, avoidance of any new experience is my social phobia. Talking to people at parties, etc, usually I can do it. Usually. There are times, however, when I become sullen and pouty when I'm out and I make a big deal. I'm sure I've lost friends over that.

I hate having to drive somewhere new. I fucking loathe it. I hate not knowing where something is and looking like a fucking idiot trying to find it. I'd rather not go than risk... I don't know - embarrassing myself.

Since avoidance of foreign experience is my thing, that means going up to people and chatting them up is impossible, no exaggeration. I cannot, will not, go and ask a stranger out. In fact, I have no fucking clue how to do it. And because I don't know how, that means I don't want to embarrass myself by trying. And since I don't try, that means I get no practice. And because I get no practice, I don't want to try! You see?
 
 
ibis the being
23:13 / 29.05.06
I don't really associate social anxiety necessarily with misanthropy. At least in my case, I like people generally, I just find interaction taxing.

Matt, I used to have more trouble with doing new things, confronting new situations... I read a book that prescribed doing these little exercises to pinpoint whether one's issues are in sensing, thinking, emoting or acting. Sounds cheesy but bear with me. The book posited that most people are deficient in two of the four and I was sure "acting" was my biggest hangup. This means I don't dance, I don't go bowling, I don't do anything physical where I (fear I) will be judged as ridiculous or inadequate. So my self-imposed therapy was to engage in exactly the activities I was most averse to - I joined a gym and started working out in front of all those people, and any time I was invited to do something outside of my comfort zone (within reason of course) I forced myself to do it. I feel it helped me a lot, particuarly the working out part - I even joined a yoga class which in the past would be the last place you'd find me (group class doing something physical!). I think this helped me in my social shyness quite a bit.
 
 
Billuccho!
23:30 / 29.05.06
I consider myself a fine public speaker, but I'm notoriously shy and generally dislike people. I rehearse conversations constantly and hide from the world as much as possible.

But I have lots of anxiety problems. I used to not be able to go out to restaurants because I'd invariably get so nervous I threw up. Every time. I still have a tiny bit of that lingering, but mostly I'm over it, thank God.
 
 
*
23:56 / 29.05.06
I'd like to also hear from people for whom this is not a problem, incidentally.

So on my way home today I cut through the UC Berkeley campus, as I like to do when I'm thinking, and sat down on a rock among the redwoods and thought about this.

I thought about how much more weight I put on other people's perceptions of me than on my own understanding of myself, and I realized that I think other people are more likely to be "right" about whatever's happening with me than I am. I'm not objective enough about my own behavior, runs the thought, so I may think I'm acting just fine but other people, whose opinions count for more, may think I'm being weird, rude, offensive, ignorant, or stupid. And if they think that, then for all intents and purposes, I am being weird etc. because no one knows what's in my head but me. It is a source of great tension that I can't explain to people how I experience my own actions, and thus have some control of whether they think I'm being weird etc., thus control over whether I am being weird etc.

I'm also aware that a large part of wanting to give this thing of mine a clinical label is that would give me another way of thinking about it than just something to put up with, some essential part of me I can never get rid of, or something all humanity has to deal with all the time. I'd really like to think I could improve my comfort level with being in the public eye.

Sorry for using the board to process, again. Thanks folks who've responded so I don't feel like everyone here thinks I'm weird etc. too.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
00:16 / 30.05.06
The first thing to "get" is that the reason we're afraid of new stuff- which means new people- how many people are afraid of looking at a new cat or taking up a new hobby? It's all about the people- is because people can be dicks. I know this. You know this. Remember Kris Cunliffe in Year 7? Remember how the girls used to call him Krissy? Remember that little prick spitting on your blazer? Yeah, you remember him. We all do, in one form or another (cf Flyboy's "What Was Done Unto Me").

The second thing- the hardest thing- to get, is that they're being dicks because they're just as afraid as you are. Sure, they don't admit it, but it's true. They're quaking in their boots, and if they see someone they can get down on they fucking will. And they'll feel bad, but they'll ignore it, because that's what they've learned to do. So it goes on, the big cycle of shitty, and it's your job to stop it- which you're halfway to doing by realising that you're a little bit social phobic. That might sound really twee, but it's true.

Let me elaborate.

IMG_0527

This is the Owl.

He is fucking wise.

If you give him the respect he deserves, he'll sit on your shoulder and he'll give you the straight shit. Like you'll think: "Oh but, if I go to meet Sandy at the diner, Bobby might be there...and he's mean! He might laugh at me and show me up in front of Sandy...and what if he puts his arm around her?"- and the Owl'll say-

"You don't know this guy's gonna be at the diner. You just go down and drink your milkshakes with Sandy. You just have fun tonight...and if this character shows up...you fucking give him time to explain himself, and you give him a line. And if fuckers are gonna cross the fucking line you jack him in the chest with a flick-knife."

So listen to the fucking wise Owl. He's got good advice for you. Get it?
 
 
Triplets
00:17 / 30.05.06
I'm not objective enough about my own behavior, runs the thought, so I may think I'm acting just fine but other people, whose opinions count for more, may think I'm being weird, rude, offensive, ignorant, or stupid.

I think I have/had summat similar. You'll find it's the other way around. You're acting pretty much like a friendly human being but soon you start second-guessing the people you're talking to* which is where the anxiety flares up. You need to learn to be selfish, not self absorbed. Stop thinking about what the person you're talking to is thinking about you. Bollocks to it. Just try to be a fun talker.

(* which in itself is distracting which in turn could make you a sound awkward)
 
 
matthew.
02:02 / 30.05.06
The second thing- the hardest thing- to get, is that they're being dicks because they're just as afraid as you are. Sure, they don't admit it, but it's true. They're quaking in their boots, and if they see someone they can get down on they fucking will.

One of my problems is that I have developed a very strong defensive position. I use my knowledge to make people feel small. I use sarcasm to belittle people.

But here's the good news. I have a new job in which I am attempting to create new impressions. I don't talk about things people aren't going to know about (so that I don't sound like a teacher). I'm going to refrain from arguing aggressively (by that I mean if someone's really wrong, I'm going to gently and politely discuss with them).

Sarcasm, however, is a different beast, somewhat harder to control. I'm trying though.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:39 / 30.05.06
Man, I'm really glad someone started a thread on this. Social anxiety is a huge problem for me, always has been. Some days I find it really, really hard just to get out of the house, and meeting new people can be pure torture. I'm constantly afraid that I'm going to do or say something stupid, or that the other person will be snide or hostile. Of course this makes me tense up, so I get physically very awkward as well as verbally weird. I giggle nervously and knock things over... which makes me look stupid and makes other people get snide and hostile. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
 
Ganesh
07:49 / 30.05.06
I'm also aware that a large part of wanting to give this thing of mine a clinical label is that would give me another way of thinking about it than just something to put up with, some essential part of me I can never get rid of, or something all humanity has to deal with all the time. I'd really like to think I could improve my comfort level with being in the public eye.

You don't necessarily have to give something a "disorder" tagline to legitimately pursue help in addressing it - although I agree that clinical pathologisation may make it easier to do so, particularly within a rationed healthcare system. It's important to bear in mind that reframing one's problems in this way, while it may open up new avenues labelled "treatment", does not fundamentally change the nature of those problems. It's an obvious point I know, but I've seen many people decide that something constitutes a "disorder" and consequently flip into a more passive 'sick role' where that something's concerned. Diagnoses are, to a large extent, clusters of descriptive shorthand; they don't neatly divide things into Pathological and Not-Pathological.

Which isn't what you were saying, I don't think, and is probably my own hobby horse. Anyway, Wikipedia does a great summary and it's worth mentioning the bit under 'Criticisms':

Social Anxiety Disorder is frequently mentioned in association with criticisms that pharmaceutical companies attempt to market ordinary life experiences as "diseases" requiring a "cure", with a profit motive. Since the approval of Paxil in 1999 the disorder has been subject to extensive marketing campaigns. Major concerns are that people are receiving unnecessary treatment (which can do more harm than good), and that side-effects are not properly mentioned.[37]

Given the blurry lines between shyness and social anxiety disorder, there is concern that people may start taking drugs to cure ordinary shyness. Also of concern is the inordinate level of attention being given towards drug treatments at the expense of behavioral and cognitive therapy.

This also could be diagnosed in accordance with OCD, as many of those with OCD have trouble dealing with social situations. Lack of public awareness of Social Anxiety Disorder may cause many to believe that people suffering from this disorder are just self-conscious and shy, two ordinary personality traits.

Among UK psychiatrists, there's much scepticism of the diagnosis of Social Anxiety Disorder, pretty much for these reasons. Marketing of Paxil followed a trend for identifying a phenomenon (this also happened with 'female sexual dysfunction'), proposing it as a "disorder" and, conveniently, selling a drug purporting to deal with it. I'd be extremely wary of going down a pharmaceutical route with your anxiety symptoms, Entity.
 
 
Ganesh
07:51 / 30.05.06
(Realised I've linked to the same Wikipedia page as you, Entity - apologies. The bit I've quoted is extremely pertinent, though.)
 
 
Ganesh
07:57 / 30.05.06
See Moynihan's excellent The making of a disease: female sexual dysfunction for more on the phenomenon of "corporate sponsored creation of a disease", albeit with a different central example.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:06 / 30.05.06
There's a whole lot of staying in the house in this thread, but what about the other thing - when anxiety becomes social fuel? When the fear becomes a kind of restless need to throw oneself into social situations all the time? I know so many people, including myself, that absolutely thrive on their nervous energy, and, believe me, it can be just as stressful. Having said that, though, on balance I think I'd prefer it because it opens up more possibilities for, I don't know...fun, I suppose.
 
 
Ganesh
08:16 / 30.05.06
Oh, I expect there'll be a drug along in a minute for that too.
 
 
imaginary mice
09:36 / 30.05.06
I’m an avoidant. My main problem is that I can’t handle rejection. At all. I reject people before they get the chance to reject me (i.e. straight away. I even used to tell people to fuck off if I got chatted up at a club but I haven’t done that for a while.). I’ve pretty much kept myself to myself since I left school 9 years ago. I actually decided not to have any close friendships / relationships anymore following a disastrous break-up 4 years ago, which I still feel very guilty about.

I’ve been looking for a permanent job for the past one and a half years. I’ve got a degree, a professional qualification and a pretty good CV. I’ve had shit loads of job interviews but I always get very nervous and mess things up. I’m so sick of temp jobs, interviews and recruitment agents and hate the fact that I can’t get a permanent job simply because I get nervous at interviews.

I read a couple of books on Buddhism recently and I’m trying to be more compassionate and empathetic. I’m hoping that if I can learn to focus on the positive aspects and simply try to be nice to everyone rather than thinking about my own concerns and feelings, I might overcome my shyness.
The problem is that in my life negative experiences far outweigh any positive ones. I don’t have anything in common with the people I work with, I get stuck in traffic twice a day, supermarkets and shops are always horribly crowded, the men who chat me up at clubs are only interested in sex and my parents are the only people who care about me. It’s hard not to feel misanthropic.
I also feel extremely jealous of other people at times, which is silly because I’ve made the decision not to have any friendships or relationships. I know I wouldn’t be able to deal with another break-up. I’m used to being on my own but sometimes, on a night out, I look around and there’s all these people chatting to their mates or partners, laughing, having a good time and I’m the only one who’s all by herself – and it just seems so wrong and unfair. (Why me??) I hear the line “What’s a good-looking girl like you doing at a club all on her own?” all the time and people never believe me when I tell them I don’t have any friends. I’ve been going out on my own for almost 10 years and even though I should know better by now, there’s always a tiny glimmer of hope that I might meet someone. And I’m always disappointed. I’m not even sure I’m still capable of fancying someone – I’m far too guarded and worried about rejection.
I worry about growing older. It’s quite normal to be single, to go clubbing and have the occasional one-night stand when you’re in your 20s but in a few years’ time I will be older than most people at clubs while people my own age will have settled down and be married with children.

I believe Avoidant Personality Disorder is quite rare. Only one book has been written about it, there aren’t any self-help books and I’ve never met anyone like me in person (the MSN AvPD group is quite good though). I’ve read a few books about shyness and social anxiety but didn’t find them particularly useful.
I believe counselling would have really helped me when I was a teenager. It might have helped me overcome my shyness and become more confident and outgoing. Then I would have found it easier to make friends and any subsequent break-ups would have been far less painful.

I guess I could still have some counselling now and focus on overcoming my shyness but after a number of horrible break-ups I’m pretty convinced that another rejection by a close friend or partner would finally drive me over the edge and that I’m better off on my own. Albeit lonely and miserable.
 
 
The Natural Way
10:02 / 30.05.06
The drugs for it are already available: they're called drugs and booze. I have no interest in pathologising, or even really moaning about my attitudes/feelings towards socialising, it just seems to me fairly obvious that the same anxiety exists in most people (to lesser or greater degrees) - it all depends on what you do w/ it. I wonder why it pushes some people outwards. What's the reason? The mechanism? Is it a fear of being left behind outweighing the fear of interaction? Is it an addiction to the rush engendered by nerves? Is it just that in the action of going out there and just doing it, you discover that, hey, you quite like people and the chance for a real connection, a fun evening and a good chat makes all the hassle worthwhile?
 
 
captain piss
10:44 / 30.05.06
Imaginery mice, I think I’m struggling with a few of the same things as you. Funnily enough I’ve been seeing a counsellor lately, about similar problems; not being able to let my guard down, rejecting people before they reject me etc (and I’m 32). Funny thing is, a lot of my friends know me as quite a sociable person. Then again, I decided to give up booze and drugs this year and that may be part the reason a lot of my people-anxiety issues seem to have come out of the woodwork and bitten me on the ass (er, mixing metaphors a bit awkwardly here).

Anyway– I’m finding the counselling thing pretty useful – you might want to give it a go.

One of your comments struck a chord, id(entity), about other people’s opinions having an unhealthy bearing on your own feelings of identity. I do think I care unhealthily what people think of me – well, after the event. It seems a stupid thing to waste emotional energy on.

There was an article in the Guardian the other day about this ‘happiness guru’ who teaches at Harvard
 who was making the point that it’s probably impossible to live with disregard for what people think of you. I liked this comment:

Ben-Shahar remembers having an epiphany at a lecture on self-esteem, given by a psychology professor he won't name, who argued that we should ignore what other people think of us, and get our validation solely from within. "But after the lecture, when he was mingling with the audience, I heard him keep asking, over and over again, 'Did you like my lecture? Did you like my lecture?' 'Overall, I thought it was great,' someone replied. 'Overall? Overall?' the professor responded. 'What was wrong?' We might as well accept that we crave external approval, or we'll only end up making ourselves feel bad for failing to make ourselves feel good."
 
 
imaginary mice
14:21 / 30.05.06
Alcohol rarely has a positive effect on me.
I'm so used to being on my own that I find it quite difficult to talk to people. I never know what to say and it's a real struggle for me to make conversation. When I'm sober I usually manage to say a few things although people will still think that I'm very quiet. If I go out with a group of people I usually spend the whole evening wrecking my brains and trying really hard to engage in the conversation. I do try really hard when I'm sober but I find it so much easier and less stressful to just lean back and listen and that's exactly what I will do when I'm drunk. Socialising and talking to people just doesn't come naturally to me and I find it really hard work. After a few drinks I simply can't be bothered with it.

Actually, I would quite like to try counselling but it is so expensive. Maybe I could try to get it on the NHS as it seems to be affecting my career and I’m quite concerned about the long term consequences (years of isolation can’t be healthy) but I have no idea what to tell my GP. I’m not depressed and I can cope on a day-to-day basis.

I’m not too worried about what people think of me. And I think that’s one of the main differences between shyness/social anxiety and avoidance. In my experience, people who are shy are usually extremely nice and sweet, worried about inconveniencing people or not fitting in. I can be quite horrible to people - and then feel terribly remorseful later.
 
 
Ticker
14:43 / 30.05.06
I tend to be fairly comfortable in social events and with people. Part of it is my belief that other people are luxury items. When starting a new job I tend to keep myself wheeled in a bit and then gradually test the waters.

I can't watch sitcoms and often run and hide in the bathroom during movies. Something about people about to be caught being stupid drives me from the room.
Never been able to watch 'Meet the Parents' for example.

I do however tend to on occasion be the foot-in-mouth jerk and wish the ground would swallow me whole. I've also gone through my rampage cycles being a unholy terror and had to slink about apologizing to my bartenders.
My bartender who witnessed the worst of my crazy streak had a very insightful thing to say. It was two years after the badness to the day and I whispered a sheepish "sorry for that" and he blinked and started laughing.

He said:

"Really I had forgotten until you brought it up. Funny how the people you like can do the most heinous acts and you forget, but people you don't like can do the smallest mistake and it always springs to mind."

I have, like Matt, horrible driving phobias. I have to leave early to go somewhere new giving myself plenty of time to correct potential mistakes and I'm a stress case the entire time. After discussing it with my sister I've concluded it was some anxiety of our parents' that became overly emphasized and magnified in us.
I don't have the problem on my motorcycle and I believe it has to do with the lack of having to be anywhere when I take him out.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:02 / 30.05.06
The drugs for it are already available: they're called drugs and booze.

Oh fuck yeah. Although on a really bad day they don't help--by the time I've downed enough booze to drown the Voice of Angst, I've also downed enough booze to turn me into an incoherent cretin.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
15:32 / 30.05.06
I go through phases of acute social phobia and anxiety. When I was in high school, I used to talk so low that no-one could hear or understand me. It got so bad that I avoided sentences longer than two words, just so I didn't have to go through the agonising process of strangers asking me to speak up. Nowadays I feel much more confident, and I've kinda learnt how to 'perform' a bit. But I still feel more comfortable in social situations where I'm working on a task with other people. In the sea of small talk with acquaintances, I can shrivel up and feel very, very anxious. Hence, I tend to have a social life based on the group projects I'm doing, except for long-term close friends and people I can hang out with one on one.

entity, are your symptoms consistent, historically, or do they come and go depending in the level of stress you're under? Is it possible that trans issues have anything to do with your anxiety? I experienced a huge attack of social phobia/anxiety when I started transitioning, and it's really only starting to ease now. I stopped going to parties/events for a couple of years, pretty much. Even really simply interactions suddenly became much more tense; plus, I was really anxious about being thought ridiculous or passing.

There's a level of shame associated with being trans that I think people tend to absorb, even when rationally they're 'proud' and 'happy', etc. For me, that shame manifested in an intense desire to hide myself and my body. Stuff happening on that level can filter out to generalised social anxiety quite easily, methinks.

The thing that helped me most effectively was understanding how insecure and phobic everyone else is. You can do this in social situations as a participant observation exercise, even: make it a point to observe the little tics that reveal other people's nervousness. Then you can feel a kind of solidarity in phobia, and things suddenly become much easier. This also helps to refocus your attention away from yourself. Shy people are hysterically self-absorbed, right? Me too
 
 
PatrickMM
15:42 / 30.05.06
Really interesting thread. I always try to think of my reaction to other people when gauging any awkwardness in my own behavior. Like, if I'm watching someone else give a presentation, I'm probably half paying attention, half thinking about other stuff, and not particularly noticing any problems the person might be having. So, when I'm giving a presenation, I try to remember that people probably aren't going to remember if I mess things up or have some awkward pauses.

Of course, you can know all this, but still I wind up focusing to much sometimes on the flaws in my own behavior, particularly in potential relationships. I can do the friend thing fine, but if it gets into more than that, there's a lot of problems because I just don't have confidence that people would want a relationship with me.

But, it is good to read the thread and see that a lot of people have similar issues.
 
 
Red Concrete
16:57 / 30.05.06
I hope I didn't give the impression in my first post that I was belittling the idea of social phobias - I can believe that for some people it's real and debilitating, and I feel it quite regularly myself.

Absolutely to all those saying that drugs (prescription) are not the answer. They're pretty much happy pills or sedatives. If that's what you want, fine, but no one really knows how they work.

I've kinda learnt how to 'perform' a bit...

Exactly... build up a 'mask'. A real life fictionsuit. It doesn't have to to be dramatically different from your real self, but since you create it you can drop the lack of self-confidence (or anything else you want). Any process - counselling, therapy, public speaking classes - that helps you build your mask will help you.
 
 
TeN
18:20 / 30.05.06
I was diagnosed with panic disorder about a year and a half ago. You're right in that what marks a disorder from merely a personality trait is the interference it has in your life. In my case, I suffered a series of panic attacks which left me emotionally, mentally, and physically drained, and forced me on several occassions to take several days (up to 10 on one occassion) off from school. My main symptom was what's called "disassociation" - the only way I can describe the sensation is that it feels as if you are watching a movie as opposed to actually experiencing what you see. Of course, as soon as you realize this, you panic. I'm a very analytical person, and in my case, my mind would be flooded with thoughts of "am I dreaming? am I losing my mind? is this going to stop or am i going to stay like this forever?" to the point where I'd imagine things like the possibility that I was a completely different person sitting on a bathroom floor somewhere tripping, and that my entire life until this point had been merely a hallucination which I was now coming out of.... very solipsistic and terrifying stuff.
Fortunately I haven't had an attack in over a year, and although I imagine this is in part due to my taking medication (albeit, a very small dosage), I can function fine without my medication and very rarely do I fear another panic attack.
Hope that helps.
 
 
*
19:01 / 30.05.06
Any process - counselling, therapy, public speaking classes - that helps you build your mask will help you.
Oh yeah? Huh.
I think I've built a pretty successful mask via various processes, such as denial, disassociation, normalization, rehearsal, and (oddly) vicious self-criticism ("You should just get over it! Everyone else does! Are you going to be a coward all your life?"), but it hasn't relieved me of my discomfort.

Nesh— Thanks for the notes about not needing to pathologize something to look for help fixing it. I think that's what I was looking for while I was thinking about the fact that this doesn't impair me compared to others, but I think I could function still better if I dealt with it better. I'm not after pharmaceuticals. I think I'd run from any psychiatrist who tried to prescribe them to me for this particular thing without a good try at a few kinds of non-medicative therapy first. I feel pretty sure that the root of this is cognitive and not chemical, and I don't think I want to use chemical means to address a fundamentally cognitive problem. Thanks for clarifying the criticism, too— it was hard for me to tell whether that was a fairly widespread hypothesis backed by evidence or wikipedia being neutral about a plausible conspiracy theory.

MD— I have the sense that I've been dealing with this all my life, but it's certainly been worse at some times than at others. I remember deciding to socialize primarily by making animal noises when I was in the seventh grade, because I couldn't possibly actually talk like a real human being (oddly, that was the year I was most popular and had the best friendships). I wasn't anywhere near identifying as trans-anything in seventh grade, unless it was trans-species to something that said "eep" a lot. On the other hand, it seems reasonable that heightened anxiety about having to interact with people in bathrooms is probably aggravated by my transness, at least. And shame about being trans manifests for me in feeling guilty about correcting people's pronoun use and feeling bad for inconveniencing others in any way by my unorthodox gender. Maybe it wouldn't manifest in that way if I didn't already feel what I'm calling social anxiety, I don't know.

I empathize with you about feeling more comfortable working on a task. I actually feel more comfortable doing something like public speaking, because I have some semblance of a script and I know what's expected of me. Since I feel most at home when I know exactly what I'm "supposed" to be doing, structured interactions are far easier— unless they require me to do something foolish-looking. Ice-breaker games at meetings may be structured but they are hell and no one is telling me otherwise. One was proposed once where you have to pass around a roll of toilet paper and take as many sheets as you would to wipe your ass with and then for each square say one thing about yourself that people in the room wouldn't automatically know. That one didn't happen, fortunately, or I would have died and dropped through the floor and then died again a lot. But then I expect that "normal" people would have a similar reaction. I don't think anyone really likes icebreaker games.

xk said:
I can't watch sitcoms and often run and hide in the bathroom during movies. Something about people about to be caught being stupid drives me from the room.
Never been able to watch 'Meet the Parents' for example.
Yesyes! Me too! Romantic comedies are like horror movies for me, and I have totally used that strategy of suddenly remembering something I have to do in the other room— hiding in the bathroom, or volunteering to go make popcorn, or whatever. Usually to a rousing chorus of "You're missing the best part!" or coming back to find my well-meaning friends have paused the video for me.

Thanks everyone who responded— means a lot to me. And Red, you didn't sound belittling.
 
 
ibis the being
20:51 / 30.05.06
One was proposed once where you have to pass around a roll of toilet paper and take as many sheets as you would to wipe your ass with and then for each square say one thing about yourself that people in the room wouldn't automatically know.

Aagh, how revolting!
 
 
looth teeth
21:47 / 30.05.06
i recognise a lot of the behaviour and feelings in this thread - thank you all for sharing. i thought i might grow out of my shyness, i may still, the blushing is much reduced these days.

my current policy is that i need to get over myself, to stop being so self absorbed as others have mentioned.

for me there's vanity too, i wonder if i wasnt shy then would i just be a bumbling arrogant idiot. shyness means i have a little mystery, it excuses my failings and underachievement.

if you could take a pill to rid yourself of shyness would you? the consequences might be horrific. i find the thought of therapy just too much, but meditation might be good - anyone tried that?
 
 
maneki neko
18:28 / 31.05.06
A lot of what has been said sounds very familiar to me, especially the fear of looking or sounding stupid in front of others. Whenever I actually force myself into social situations I become completely self-conscious, which makes it pretty impossible to talk or dance or have fun - but one part of me really wants to!

Something that has been helpful to me is trying to be less self-critical and more understanding towards myself, but this seems a very hard thing to do.

I'm not sure about meditation but am at the moment trying to become more "mindful" - which basically means that I am aware of my thoughts, feelings etc. but I don't become tangled up in them. I allow them to be there but also stay in the present. I found some information on the internet which hopefully explains it better than I do.



(Hope that works, this is the first time I've tried to post a link.)
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
06:19 / 02.06.06
My experience may be atypical, in that in highschool I was quite popular (in my highschool, the smart/nerdy/etc kids were also the popular/sporty/etc kids) and had really good friendships with a large percentage of my class, but once I got to uni I became a massive paranoid wreck, and though I somehow got into a relationship, that only made things worse (to quickly explain without going into too much tedious detail: I was convinced I would be dumped immediately, and after being very cautious for several months, decided that I wouldn't be, and could trust this person and love them, and then they dumped me. Ha ha ha. And then they asked me out again, several months later, because they had 'loved me the whole time' and... I'd spent those months throwing up several times a day due to being unable to deal mentally with what had happened, and dealing with it somatically instead. This makeup-breakup cycle repeated for some two years. Can't recommend it).

I had been reasonably socially inept all through junior school, and up until the point where I was accelerated two years through highschool, only sort of vaguely fit in. When I went up two years, though, I also gained a foot in height, and was suddenly in the middle of the nicest group of people I have ever met, and people who didn't think my jokes were too complicated. I was still afraid, at some level, that they didn't like me, but it was easier to ignore.

And then I went to uni, at the tender age of 16, and had my heart (and any beginnings of social confidence) ripped out.

So I basically thought that everyone was out to hurt me and my 'friends' were only friendly to my face, and as soon as I left the room were laughing about how stupid I was and so on and so forth, and also that anyone who expressed any kind of romantic interest in me was trying to kill me with my mind. Or joking.

It took a long time, but I eventually realised that other people have the same social problems (though not as bad, it seems), and that when someone looks at you, they don't see all your thoughs and inadequacies and so on, they just see a person, the same way that when I look at someone I can't tell what their terrible fears and hopes are, or if they spent the morning hiding in their room crying or whatever. I started looking at how the people who seemed the 'coolest', or at least the most comfortable, behaved, and emulating any characteristics which I felt I could comfortably do.

And after a while, I became cool and comfortable, and rarely have any more issues with social paranoia and thinking people are only pretending to like me. I also am in a much, much healthier long term relationship, which helped, but only happened after I stopped being horribly afraid of everyone's power to hurt me (I have the same power to hurt them, after all, and I'm not going to use it. Why should they?).

This is not to say, by the way, that everyone should just toughen up and get on with it, because I know that it's sometimes impossible. Just that, also, sometimes, it is possible. I was very lucky in that the group of people I associate with are actually very supportive, and if you tell them that something they're doing is freaking you the fuck out, they'll stop. and they'll also tell you how they really feel about you, for good or ill, without too much drama, which is helpful in the extreme. I also don't think 'fake it 'til you make it' will always work, but it did for me, and it may be worth a try.

(if this is upsetting or unhelpful, feel free to have it deleted)
 
 
ibis the being
23:31 / 28.04.07
*Bumpity.*

My SO and I wasted a precious hour today (we hardly ever get to see each other) having an argument related to this topic, and I need some outside perspective... advice, sympathy, whatever's available. The issue is, we are getting married in the fall.

As a person with possible social anxiety disorder, or moderate to severe anxiety over being a focus of attention, whatever you'd like to call it, a wedding for me is fraught with terrifying situations. I have talked myself into the idea that walking an aisle in front of a crowd is manageable, and that while standing at the front saying our vows I can stare at SO, keep my back slightly turned to the audience, and speak inaudibly, and somehow I will get through that part too.

The reception is scaring me more... there are several traditions I will dispense with straight out, but others are less avoidable. My dad is over the moon at the idea of a father-daughter dance. So I came up with what I thought was a great compromise: at the onset of the father-daughter dance, we invite the crowd to join us on the floor. This way my dad and SO get their dances, the people get their tradition, the photographer gets the shots, and I don't die of an anxiety attack or cause a scene by hiding in the bathroom in tears.

To my surprised dismay, SO was adamantly against this idea. And it wasn't so much that he refused to go along with it as that he totally belittled and ridiculed my feelings about the whole thing. He told me that I was being ridiculous, it would be disrespectful, everyone would expect me to do these dances, I "owed" my dad that much, he felt sorry for my dad, and my idea would never work and I was being crazy. Naturally I was crushed.

My SO is very social & confident and I have piggybacked a lot on him in social situations... I feel more confident around him and am able to function more normally when we're out as a couple. But I always assumed he knew that what he sees now is someone who's made a lot of progress against what is a legitimate, real, constrictive anxiety in social situations. I'm hurt that he invalidated my feelings and also that he so misunderstands me. I did say that to him today but I don't sense that he gets it.

I suppose this is mainly a vent and an appeal for the validation that I didn't get from him... which on reflection might be a little attention-whorey, but I need to do it right now.
 
 
This Sunday
00:43 / 29.04.07
If traditions are getting in the way of someone having a good time of their own wedding, what possible good are they? That's absurd.

A friend of mine just told me she's basically lost her boyfriend because he couldn't handle that she was getting more work in their field, and may be more talented than he is. He'd prefer she'd drop out of their mutual field or something, to make him feel better.

So, I'm all riled up and (self-)righteous about this sort of thing right now, anyway.

But, really! Talk to your dad about the situation; explain how problematic or uncomfortable things may be for you. And, while, in the end you have to weigh the options yourself, anyone who picks a day like that to decide it doesn't really matter much if you're happy, so long as everyone else is... well...

But do talk to those involved. Maybe it'll all smooth over when they realize how stressed you are, or how much more stressed you may become.

(And, don't worry, someone with better advice will be along shortly, I'm sure.)
 
 
Triplets
13:01 / 29.04.07
If traditions are getting in the way of someone having a good time of their own wedding, what possible good are they? That's absurd.

As I said to my mum about the Sunday roast, "if you're doing it for the sake of doing it and not doing it because everyone enjoys it, then really, what's the fucking point?". We now have hotpot on Sundays. Geddin!

But, seriously, talk to your dad. My gut instinct says he'll be cool with doing anything you need him to do. At the end of the day, it's your wedding: do you what like!

I don't know the specifics of the conversation/argument but it sounds, to me, as if your SO might have been trying, through ridicule, to get you to see the dance/the wedding as not that big a deal. IE, "I'm laughing! Can't you see it will be fine?", laughing at the situation, not you in particular. I've been on both sides of that brand of coaching.

As Dec says, talk to your dad. You also need to talk to your SO and make sure he gets the situation. I'm sure it's all down to people not being on the same wavelength and a good sit-down and chat will help everyone tune-in.



Stay frosty!
 
 
Spaniel
14:03 / 29.04.07
Ibs, do you thin that perhaps you and your SO are failing to communicate for reasons other than the ones you've described. My partner and I have been under a lot of pressure lately for one reason or other and I've noticed that our communication is getting blocked all over the place where it completely needn't. It took me a while to realise there's stuff that's goin on underneath the surface that needs to addressed.

Forgive me if I'm sounding all patronising and obvious. Just throwing something else into the mix.

Also, I'm 100% totally with you, and reading your post got me super cross. And, DD, shame on that man! What a dick.
 
  

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