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Why Magic?

  
  

Page: 12(3)45

 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:51 / 26.05.06
.trampetunia: Please, please tell me you're being ironic with your usage of the spelling "majic", in a teh darque maahhjikz piss-take sense. Please tell me that. Even if it isn't true.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:08 / 26.05.06
And your lovelife too would suffer undoubtedly. "Not tonight dear...I'm a bit worn out..."

Of course a real Magickian scorns the company of women. They drain your chi, don'tchaknow.
 
 
petunia
15:11 / 26.05.06
hehe
was wondering when that would get picked up.
Um. I'm just a bit new to this whole 'talking to other people about teh magiques' thing, so i decided in my uncertaintly to use 'majic' as a way to avoid ending up taking myself to seriously. So yeah, much irony mixed with a feeble attempt at damage limitation.
Does it just look silly?
It looks silly doesn't it?

I'll stop.

*deep red blush*
 
 
jihadreflection
17:25 / 26.05.06
My contention was sorcery (in my experience and the experience of people I have met) does not seem to have a 100% success rate. This does not imply that 100% success is impossible or that only Sidhe’s (I think that’s what they call them) count.
When I mention science I also mean that any reproducible coincidence would gain scientific validity at some point. The whole talk about ‘special cool power’ came about in response to the post about a shaman summoning winds.

I was interested in defining magic in operational terms. Since perspectivist/operationalist/model agnostic philosophy is popular among many writers on the subject, (Crowley, Wilson, Carroll, Regardie define things in operational terms sometimes for example) I did not think this unreasonable.
Since prominent members of the IOT have stated they don’t achieve 100% success rates, among these Peter Carroll and William Burroughs, I did not think that success rates was an issue per say. Admittedly they are no longer members and the criteria for being hard-core may have changed or you may be talking about a different I.O.T. I assumed you were talking about the Illuminates of Thanateros as started by Peter Carroll and Ray Sherwin but I may be wrong.

In defining things in operationalist terms I meant that for example Zen can be defined as the practise of Zazen and Koans. Something like Thelema could be defined in terms of technique alone as well.
‘On practising certain techniques, certain results may follow.’ I think somebody said.

As this relates to the conversation I was pointing out that Magic refers to nothing. It simply does not exist. All that exists are certain techniques and some of these are lumped together in a progressive system of attainment.

Of course this is only one way of looking at it and it’s not the one right and true way and I certainly don’t feel the need to evangelise my way (Though I like a good argument because that often clarifies and sometimes make me modify my own position).

In general semantics when somebody says something along the lines of ‘why magic’ then the usual response is to try and get them to define what they mean. A specific technique, a set of techniques, etceteras. This doesn’t mean that general semantics if the one right and true way with which to define all things and bring to light the truth. It is a tool for the individual that may or may not help gain clarity.

Some individuals have stated they prefer not to define and that they like mystery. If this works form them then I’m pleased. It doesn’t work so well for me.
This is of course a different issue than how powerful and under what circumstances action at a distance is and may be used.

On a last note to Switch
If I was going to write you post I would have written it like this.

Dear Jihad
Sorry to hear that you’re not getting 100% success rate. I myself achieve a 100% success rate. I can enchant for a variety of wonderful and good things to happen to you. If you notice your life considerably turn for the better then you could reconsider the maximum obtainable success rate and this may act as a goal to help you achieve excellence in your own practise.

But if your way’s working for you then knock yourself out.
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:07 / 26.05.06
My chi needs draining on a more frequent basis.
 
 
yemeth
01:52 / 27.05.06
I think my reason, what I most value that magick has brought to me, is a perspective from which I've learnt again (as when I was a kid) to look at the world in awe. Like, things can get bad in life, but there is "that". Not as something to cling to, but more like something which reminds me about the limitedness of what I would structure as a perception of life, and the falsehood in any interpretation of reality I make.
 
 
LVX23
14:20 / 27.05.06
I agree, motoko. Magick helps me continue to see the majesty of creation from one day to the next. It helps me to keep from sinking into the kingdom too much.
Magick for me has always been more about interfacing with the divinity of nature, engaging maps of reality that aren't as limited as the common view, finding a path of personal integrity and responsibility, and tending the light.

If I want results, I may put my will out into the universe in ritual but, IMHO, there are far more practical ways to obtain the physical effects one desires (like if you want a job, you should send out your resume, take advantage of industry contacts, go on interviews, etc...). Results magick is just making shit happen IRL by whatever means works for you. It's really about DOING things instead of just thinking about them (or just wanking over a sigil and waiting for that new partner to walk through the door).
 
 
louisemichel
16:03 / 27.05.06
but when the new partner comes into the room when you're wanking on the sigil, it may be the beginning of a beautiful relationship.

Now, more seriously, great thread here.
I already told it, but Gipsy, what a talent you have !
wow.
 
 
EvskiG
03:25 / 05.06.06
After a much-needed cleansing of the ol' doors of perception, I'm back in the game.

I figured it was better to delve into the practical work and work out and refine the details later rather than continue to dither about exactly what to do and how.

Because my background is in classic Golden Dawn and Thelemic magic, that's my foundation, although I intend to throw in a bit of this and that (yoga, Bardon, etc.) as I go along.

In the process I've put together a lot of notes and thoughts on one of my initial exercises, from Liber Resh. If people are interested or think it would be helpful, I'd be happy to share and use them as the foundation of a discussion.

Is anyone interested? If so, just let me know and I'll post them here.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
07:50 / 05.06.06
Cool, glad to hear you're back in business. Sometimes it really does just come down to diving in and getting started, rather than weighing up the various pros and cons. Would be interested in seeing your notes. I think Liber Resh, like all of the ceremonial gear really, has quite a lot of depth beneath its surface. Why not start a thread on Resh?
 
 
EvskiG
13:17 / 05.06.06
Sounds good, so that's what I'll do.

More shortly.
 
 
Enamon
00:23 / 06.06.06
Matches aren't a part of you.
 
 
Quantum
10:36 / 06.06.06
Enamon- do you think fire elementals are?
 
 
Anthony
22:59 / 06.06.06
i wouldn't summon fire elementals. fire elementals would be summoned, perhaps, as a consequences of other things i was doing. i find it helps to keep one's magickal focus. but magick doesn't involve at any point not rolling one's sleeves up. if you don't do what needs to be done "on this plane" then nothing will happen. action is necessary for change and magick is, as crowley said, far more normal than most would credit.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
23:26 / 06.06.06
Magick is... far more normal than most would credit.

Exactly! It's both contact with some Divine source and washing the dishes. The Everyday Immanence.

Like the end of I Heart Huckabees. The two guys talking about how the interconnectiveness of all things is both the metaphysical Big Deal and also nothing special.

At this point, I'm just trying to strip things down to the most basic ingredients, without creating some pseudo-science or pseudo-psychology or mystical jargon-filled crap. Just getting down to the basics derived from experience. And building up from there. Fieldstripping the old mind, getting all the pieces of lint and fluff out, and leaving lots of room the Palace in me to grow.
 
 
Quantum
11:00 / 08.06.06
if you don't do what needs to be done "on this plane" then nothing will happen.

So where's the magic then?

All this talk of the magic and mundane reminds me of the philosophical debate over the Mind/Body problem. If you can do everything using 'normal' means then the magic starts to seem like decoration, much in the way Epiphenomenalism leaves consciousness as a side-effect of matter.
But, for me, consciousness is indeniable, as is magic. Gotta explain it somehow.
 
 
Proinsias
21:27 / 08.06.06
Why magic?

I'm not sure I understand what magic is, and to me it looks in many cases, as Quantum says, decoration.

I have no experience of magic to talk of. By this I mean I have never performed something I would consider magical. My wealth of knowledge about magic has been derived soley from a reading of Generation Hex, scan reading some Crowley, a couple a of magazine articles and the occasional reading of the Temple - so feel free to tell me to shut up.

Sigil Magick - I fail to see what the purpose of the Sigil is. If there is something I need help with, an object I require, or something needs to be done it is only natural to think and focus upon this after which normal life is resumed and the thoughts drift underneath conciousness, when the object or answer is found you remember clearly the initial energy you put into finding the solution. It seems to me the sigil is a very mechanical ritualised form of something that is entirely natural. Why conceive a thought, translate it into a picture, memorise the picture, associate it with the thought and then try and forget it all*.Would it not be much easier to visulise the intent then allow to slide away to the recesses of the mind - a process I find entirely natural and helpful in day to day life.

The use of Gods - I am wary of talk of gods and interactions with them. I had a solid catholic upbringing until the age of 14/15(I'd decided most of it was bullshit by the age of 11 or 12) and I see scary similarities between catholics use of saints and the magicians use of gods - wether this is good/bad/indifferent I'm not sure, it just fills me with dread. As a catholic I used holy water going in & out the house, talismans would be used for holidays and exams, recently dead would be prayed to and for to elevate them to saint level - after which they could be called on for favours. It sometimes feels that the gods could be catholic saints only with much cooler artwork and far more hit points. This is one of my problems with catholicism, it seems to spend a lot less time devoted to God due to the amount that has to be spent on Mary/saints/ old popes** etc. Why mess about with intermediaries, I would rather have meaningful relationships with my, human/animal, friends and spend the other time trying to find the source(for want of a better word) of all, not something stuck on another plane.

To continue my tirade I will approach drugs and magick. I spent a few years experimenting with drugs and thouroughly enjoyed myself, got some real insights, and forged bonds with people I feel will never be broken. I have no problem with people using drugs for magick I can see it would be espicially useful to attain particular states of conciousness and is bassically a shortcut to states that would otherwise take a hell of a lot of work and discipline. What I didn't get was something I read in Generation Hex it involved months of planning, preparation, opening, closing and a lot of Auming. I can't recall who wrote the essay and I'm aware they may be reading this, I'm not trying to cause offence and I'm certainly not saying it's wrong, I just don't get it. Surely being natural with those you will be hanging out with during it, spending time together, ensuring you are comfortable with each other and bassically having good friends you know and trust along with a good atmosphere is enough for exploring the mind with friends. The magical side seems again to me like decoration. I was shocked that a blanket/rug was used to open and close the trip, it sounded like a young child needing their special blanket when going to bed. From my experience a trip doesn't need to be closed, people start coming round to reality, some normal music a cup of tea and some biscuits restore normality perfectly well.

I guess what I'm getting at is that if magic is real and it's everywhere, even in washing the dishes, then what's the point of ritual. Surely life is the ritual of magic and living life well is performing magic well. For me the processes seem to get in the way of the doing it - Gypsys' trance walking mentioned in Generation Hex, why not just walk home talking everthing in, appreciating the world and listening to it, why walk under an archway or whatever and bring magic into the walk? (starting and ending with the begining and end of the jouney makes far more sense to me).

I've posted this with no experience of much of it which I have seen can be a problem in the Temple, however, I was hoping that because the post was outlining why I'm having difficulty entering in to a magical frame of mind, I might manage to escape with no more than a few cuts and grazes along with a new angle with which to approach or start approaching maahhjikz.
I have typed much of this rant without much careful consideration of content or wording( aside from a spell check). Please question and at least allow me one attempt at defence before ripping my arsehole out and feeding it to the gods to power your Sigils***
I was intending on posting something similar in the stupid questions thread but figured this might fit the bill


*I have no idea if this is correct
** the old popes bit might be rubbish but it didn't feel right with only two examples.
***light hearted fun poking I hope.
 
 
illmatic
08:30 / 09.06.06
Proinsias:

I quite liked the fact that you have come in with quite a few challenging questions, and been upfront about your lack of experience and disbelief. Good on ya for that, I say.

I'm not going to answer all of your points 'cos I've not got time. Just with sigils, I think if you really want to understand them go back to the source, Austin Spare. What they are is an example of the immense creativity of a brilliant artist. Part of his outpouring of fantastic work, both artistic and liteary. What I get out of this is that the point is not just to replicate Spare's stuff, as a "dead form" or received "technique", but to access your own creativity and ideas, perhaps twisting Spare's template, perhaps rejecting it entirely. It's all part of taking up the adventure which is magic. Possibly you're onto something with the method you mention, possibly not. It doesn't really strike me that it's testing your boundaries very much.

A lot of the cock that written about sigils on Barbelith - seems to be working on the assumption that it's a "technique" which works. Input sigil, perform technique, Bob's your Ipisissimus. That's not my experience, nor is it the experience sof most others I know. Rather, it seems to be one of two things happens - a) they work well, for a short period of time (usually until your ego latches onto them), and serve as a "gateway" drug to other methods, perhaps to be revisited later or b) Fuck all happens, and the aspiring mage gets wrapped up in a sense of his own lack of ability, and more and more frustrated and caught up with lust of result.

The key thing here is experience. Do it, try it and make honest judgements based on that being open to the self-deceptions and ego-attachments that form around these things. You are generalising about things you've not experienced first hand from reading a web page - and there's certainly a big filter of preconception in the way. Therefore, it's no wonder to me you don't appear to "get" some of it.
 
 
illmatic
08:32 / 09.06.06
BTW please don't read my post as telling you take up sigils! Far too boring. Try something more involving.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:33 / 09.06.06
Art, mate. Creativity. Compelling narrative. All of these things are essential to magic. The various things you turn your nose up at as empty "ritual" are a method for engaging with the story of your magic.

For instance, why start a drift at a crossroads or gateway? Because the whole process then takes place under the auspices of a deity I've spent years and years building a relationship with, and who opens the way for messages to come through more clearly. For me, this is an integral part of the process, all of my magic takes place within an expanding narrative that stretches back thousands of years beyond my birth and is shaped every time I do something - just like life itself. There is a poetry to magic, and part of the process is in finding this poetry for yourself and making it come alive.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:45 / 09.06.06
Not wanting to derail or anything, but what's a drift involve?
 
 
illmatic
08:52 / 09.06.06
The various things you turn your nose up at as empty "ritual" are a method for engaging with the story of your magic

Indeedy. Sometimes these things can be "dead forms" as I said above - all the wonder and mystery leach about of them, and all that's left is the need to complete the gesture. OCD. (There's a great bit about this in the novelisation of "The Exorcist" IIRC). I suspect for may of us, this is paralled with our early experience of Church.

However, sometimes it can be a way of firing oneself up, getting oneself going, defining space and intention. Connection with life.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:02 / 09.06.06
Magic is not decoration, in the same sense that love or romance are not decoration around sex, or vice versa.
 
 
SteppersFan
10:19 / 09.06.06
I think these are fair and well-expressed questions from a sympathetic non-practitioner viewpoint.

On sigils - yes, deffo have a look at what AOS thought about it as Illmatic suggests; for to do a sigil is just different from forming an intention in your mind and then wandering off and getting on with it. It feels different: participatory, frequently "other-worldly", an engaging with the self.

On deities and conflicts from catholicism: I absolutely empathise. My starting point is one of being pretty uncomfortable with deity work too. However - it sounds like you had quite a "high catholic" upbringing, with talismans and saint-worship and stuff, and if you can divorce your memory of these activities from the control-system aspects of catholicism (which is asking a lot!), then you actually have a very powerful set of experiences and skills there.

Now, for what I think is the real biggie in your post:

if magic is real and it's everywhere, even in washing the dishes, then what's the point of ritual. Surely life is the ritual of magic and living life well is performing magic well.
Yes it is. And magic is also entirely different.

There's "mundane", everyday magic - as a parent I'm aware of this every day in my interactions with my kids, and not just because of the sense of ancestor engagement - it's in the weaving of the fabric of love over time.

But - and it's a big but - there's a massive experiential and practical difference between that "mundane" stuff, and working magic. Doing stuff that one would term ritual. And as I think I mentioned upthread, this is worth trying, worth feeling, because quite frankly it's some of the best fun you can have with your clothes on. Or indeed off. Never mind that it's life-changing, life-saving, life-enhancing, vital stuff. Try it. You might like it. No purchase necessary.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:19 / 09.06.06
(Evil Cyberman: the drift.)
 
 
iamus
12:33 / 09.06.06
It seems to me the sigil is a very mechanical ritualised form of something that is entirely natural.

Though I should firstly point out that "ritualised" is not necessarily a bad thing, and also that I've never been one for sigils myself, I'm echoing Illmatic here. It's important to view the practice as it was conceived, rather than what it has maybe become. The problem you have with it here, I reckon, is a problem that a lot of temple posters would deem as a potential problem facing any magical system. The accumulation of dogma around a valid practice. Map for the territory. Finger pointing at the moon. It's not the exact steps you're taking, it the underpinning principles that are important. The artistic, creative engagement. The part that has personal resonance.

This is also your problem with Catholicism as you were brought up in it, I reckon. I know that the last thing I would've associated my experience of church and catholic worship as was creative and personal.

I never understood why all that singing had to be so fucking lifeless.

Why mess about with intermediaries, I would rather have meaningful relationships with my, human/animal, friends and spend the other time trying to find the source(for want of a better word) of all, not something stuck on another plane.

I think there's some inconsistencies here. You seem to be making a seperation between the physical world, the world of deities and the Source. First I think you really need to know what you mean when you say 'the source'. If it is the source of all things, then it includes humans, animals, gods, whathaveyou....... everything springs from it.

From this point of view you can't view any one thing as being more valid than the other, because really, being in communication with anything is being in communication with the source. It's not just deities who are intermediaries, everything is an intermediary. And because everything is, nothing is.

In this sense, there's nothing you can do to get yourself closer to or further from the source of things. The only thing you can do is evolve your conciousness of it, change the way it expresses itself through you and deity work is one way of doing this. It's not necessary, in the same way that mowing the lawn isn't necessary, but the potential is there to gain whole new ways of looking at the world around you. Through regular, respectful communication with a deity you'd gain a much deeper understanding of the forces they represent and how those forces mix and bubble in the world around you, in much the same way that mowing the lawn regularly gives you a much clearer idea of how grass grows.

This isn't taking in the intracacies of how Deity work actually acts, but I think this is the most pertinent thing to get at here. No Way is better or worse than any other, all Ways lead to the same place eventually, they just take in different scenery on the way there.

I guess what I'm getting at is that if magic is real and it's everywhere, even in washing the dishes, then what's the point of ritual. Surely life is the ritual of magic and living life well is performing magic well

As said above..... well, yeah.

And naw.

What's the point of writing a book? What's the point of painting a portrait? What's the point of playing a song? Dancing a dance?

Is it to get something out of your system? Is it to communicate something to others? Is it to better understand its inherent themes? Is it to better understand yourself?

Is it any one answer?
 
 
iamus
12:52 / 09.06.06
In fact, P, seeing as I know you...

What's the point of the Tea Ceremony?
 
 
Quantum
16:08 / 09.06.06
What's the point of writing a book? What's the point of painting a portrait? What's the point of playing a song? Dancing a dance?

iamus beat me to it. Beauty is everywhere, even the washing up, but as Rumi says Beauty surrounds us, but usually we need to be walking in a garden to know it. Ritual is a way of making magic like painting is a way of making beauty.
 
 
johnny enigma
08:10 / 10.06.06
Proinsias - I understand your point about sigils, and I'd say that if your positive thinking method works for you then keep using it, by all means. However, I got more envolved in magic to change the things in my life and those around me that didn't seem to respond to positive thinking or positive action. Once it had worked, there was no turning back.
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
09:21 / 10.06.06
I think magic(k) is set of techniques with has to be with a connection of the mind-realms, the omni-mind, the akahasic records or wathever: the subtle worlds.

And, that's an oppinion, i think the key of magic(k) are the physiological changes made in our bodies that induce these trances. The more we advandce (and apply) technology, the most we'll chart the inner realms.

BTW, has anybody read anything of Drew Hempel? It's awesome!
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
09:22 / 10.06.06
Bad link. Hempel here.
 
 
Proinsias
23:51 / 10.06.06
Cheers for all.

Illmatic - I'll have a read of AOS, I've only ever read about him it might be time to read the source before picking holes.

Gypsy - I didn't mean to sound like I'm turning my nose up, just questioning.I wanted clarification on some things that are really getting in the way of me starting to do any sort of magic.
I can also see some some holes in my drift theory - If I really think about it I would usually start concentrating on not concentrating about the walk once I've passed some sort of landmark - usually my front door and my works doors, sometimes an unexpected end if something really shitty appears on my headphones or the phone rings, I suppose I could be using these as they the only gateways I've thought of, however, it still seems terribly convieneint to use one whole journey for the wander as opposed to a part.
When you mention that magic is not decoration I'm going to take a bit of a leap of faith and assume you're not a regular face at your local magic circle group.

Magic is not decoration, in the same sense that love or romance are not decoration around sex, or vice versa.
Maybe, but there can be a lot of bullshit and pretence found around all of these, although I may be a magic vigin watching temple porn and thinking I know it all.

Steppersfan - Rekon I'll start with my clothes on.
On the catholic thing the talisman & saint side is something I had a particular problem with - your jouneys will go fine, as will everyone elses, if you've got big St. Chris with you, if you left him at home you're fucked. Magic is something I'd like to have on me 24/7. I don't fancy being caught out in a situation where I need to get all Bruce Lee on someones ass only to brick it 'cause I left my Invisibles badge at my mates house.

My opinion on this part may change somewhat once I've actually gotten off my arse and done something but

There's "mundane", everyday magic

That's what I want (I think). To appreciate the subtlties, dependences and connection around me in my everyday life. To learn how to work better with the world. There seems to be plenty out there for me to try and make sense of, enough I'm sure to keep be busy for many years, I have no desire other than the coming of the Revolution* to chat with weird beings.I'll start slowly I think.

Iamus
Though I should firstly point out that "ritualised" is not necessarily a bad thing

No it's not, it's not necessarily a good thing either and if you push the definition there's surley not many things you're average person does that couldn't be described as ritual. I'm trying to see the point of pushing the ritual aspect over the practical.
My problem with catholisism was that it appeared to me to be no more than blind faith hiding behind an immensley intricate dogma, I have no problem with a little baggage as long as there is something worth finding in it. I would, of course prefer fuck all baggage, but I rekon that might leave me with the untranslated Dao De Ching and sod all else.

You seem to be making a seperation between the physical world, the world of deities and the Source

I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm pretty much commited to the physical world for the time being, the source is where I'm betting we and most other shit came from. I don't think It's unreasonable to concentrate on the personal relationships I have at the moment and try and look into the source, It's surely a different quest altogether to go round meeting and greeting everything that has ever been, maybe.

"From this point of view you can't view any one thing as being more valid than the other"

Does that not means those looking at the finger are getting just as much as those fixed on all that heavenly glory?

Regarding mowing the lawn - I figure I may learn a lot more about grass growing from watching it grow, seeing its limitations, observing the balance it assumes with the rest of the garden than attacking it with a blade and watching it recover repeatedly.

Tea - the point is to make the finest cup of tea possible. The same as the point in me having a piece of chicken is, usually, to make it taste as good as possible (or have I been watching too much Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall. The ceremony is meant to be the minimun requirement that does service to fine tea, and before he mentions I do have an needlessly elaborate, expensive tea tray - It was an irresistable now or never bargin and ............................. It's nicer than the one Iamus has got ,so there.

Lastly I think a big problem for me is defining what magic is for me - is this an all or nothing type situation?

* Nintendo Revolution
 
 
sn00p
08:48 / 12.06.06
I hope this will help,
I think I’m a lot like you: I'm a cynic, a scientist, a pharmacologist, an atheist, religion despiser: so here's how I define magic:
The world only exists in our nervous system.
So magic is pushing the nervous system to new limits to get results.

Subsequently, I do the following things:

Sigils- Sigils are useful for actually making things happen in the world and getting results. The technique has been well researched so a working technique is well documented and ready available, it may not work for you first time, but all you have to do is apply good scientific method and soon you’ll have found out what works for you . The key is to not delude yourself into thinking it’s working if it’s not, and try to take the parts of the basic method and make them your own. Sigils are simple and easy, not recommending them on the basis that they’re not interesting enough is like not recommending showering because it’s not entertaining enough.
The sigil can be thought of as a symbolic form of your desire which you implant in your mind, thus altering your mind, thus altering the universe.

Divination- The subconscious mind is able to look at things as a whole and do huge calculations to figure out what’s going on, this is how you can catch a ball without a computer to work out it’s trajectory. So to do divination on an event, I focus my subconscious mind on a subject, and then use a symbolic language system (usually tarot cards) to communicate between my subconscious mind and my conscious mind.

Shamanism- Trying to bring something useful back from an altered state of consciousness experience.

Mask magic- Dressing so in particular ways so that I have mastery over other peoples imaginary spaces.

I don’t do much else regularly which I would consider magic. I’m too fidgety to meditate and I couldn’t give two tugs on a dead dogs cock about vague astral meanderings that yield no results.
 
 
jihadreflection
10:53 / 12.06.06
SnOOp: I like that definition of mask magic.

I use science and apply it to magic because that which is not science is faith. Faith is believing in something with no evidence.

Here's a question though. Is there anything 'magic' has got that NLP hasn't got better?

The only thing I can think of magic as having that NLP doesn't, is the breathing techniques.

NLP = Neuro linguistic programming.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:27 / 12.06.06
Here's a question though. Is there anything 'magic' has got that NLP hasn't got better? The only thing I can think of magic as having that NLP doesn't, is the breathing techniques.

My jaw drops on the floor in incredulity.

Such sheltered lives they lead.

Magic and NLP are identical, provided your magic is just NLP with some witchy decorations wrapped around it.
 
  

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