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Why Magic?

 
  

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Quantum
14:12 / 20.05.06
Evskig posted elsewhere-
I've eventually come to the point where (with rare exceptions) I drop the magic, roll up my sleeves, and simply do it... When my mother was very ill, for example, I could have done some sort of healing ritual, but instead I got on a plane, went to her house, got her to the hospital, spoke to her doctors, stayed with her until she was better, and followed up with her and her doctors until she was well. Could I have added magic to that mix (that is, apart from the magic implicit in purposeful action)? Sure. Did I feel any need to? No.

Which struck a chord with me. I have often been over-cautious in my practice (King Log) and am striving to do *more* magic, but from time to time I have a crisis of faith (what if it's all bullshit? what if I'm deluding myself?) and wonder what the point of it is. I could live a happy successful life without any interest in magic (many do) and attain the same goals.

So, this thread. Partly about the interaction between magic and practical action, partly about losing the magic, partly about the motives behind having a magical practice at all.
What does it provide that Science and Religion can't? How does it improve your life?

For me it provides something nebulous nothing else can, I'd miss it if it were gone, I consider magic to be an intrinsic and essential part of my life like music. When it's going well it's obvious that magic is fucking amazing and a daily revelation into the nature of the universe and myself and their interaction. But when the coincidences are few and far between and the world seems meaningless and empty, it can be difficult to remember why I believe these crazy things.

Anyone else find their faith tested in the low-spooky part of the magical cycle? Anyone got a good mantra to help me through the tough bits? Is magic just a luxury?
 
 
EvskiG
14:40 / 20.05.06
Obviously, I've been having some of the same thoughts.

More later, once I've thought a bit more on the matter.
 
 
Lord Switch
17:24 / 20.05.06
The question is: why not?
followed by:
Why did you get into magick in the first place?

Many people seem to have this problem. I have spoken to many of my students, and my Guru once told me that he had the same problem with some of the students he had.

I believe that if you need to ask youself the question then something is allready wrong.

Why should I run 3 miles a day if I can just get silicon implants and a liposuction?
Why should I spend money on silicon implants and a lipo when I can just run 3 miles a day?

Many seek magick for reasons that sooner or later die out; Escapism; Being different; Because it made so much sense when they read the invisibles; becasue RA Wilson is great; Power;
People like having easy access to many things and magick, especially the type most people like doing is the simple way out. Sigil for girlfriend. Evoke entity for X.
Blame failins and shortcomings and indecision on Not knowing ones true will yet.

Magick that solely deals with physical things does have that problem. sigils for a job. Magick to heal people etc.
All these things are "lower" magicks, magicks that deal with malkuth. This world. And, naturaly it is easier to go and suck up to a boss to get a promotion then to do a sigil for it. Your will will follow the easiest path.

If magick/esotericism/religion isn´t part of who you are, but is something that you just do, then you´ll find other easier and better ways of doing it.


There is not much point in spending year after year in trying to attain union with god, if you don´t even believe in the existence of hir. Magickal practice, be it Aikido, yoga, going to church every sunday and actually believing in god, are all ends in and of themselves. If you don´t live it, if you can´t be it, stop dreaming it.
Aikido/Gun
God/you
celebrating equinoxes because you feel its right/becasue a tome said so and your bf in college got you into it...
-------------------------------
If someone thinks that they need magick, then they usually don´t really.
 
 
LVX23
19:02 / 20.05.06
I've had similar feelings, Ill & Ev. This year I turned 35 and separated from my wife. For the first time in my life I am feeling old. And I feel that in some ways magick has abandoned me. Or rather that I have begun to let the magick slip. Yet I have regular moments of getting swept up in the majesty of creation - watching the clouds blow across a sunset, for instance. Feeling the grace of creation.

I'm in Lyon, France, a bit drunk, listening to Flaming Lips. There's a line to the effect of "you can never know yourself" and this rings true for me. To some degree this human robot of mine is falling forward on the inertia of so much sub-conscious experience, so many patterns and habits and subtle traumas that I'm not even really conscious of. Some days I'm a god filled with power straight from the source, or straight from my ego. Other days find me sad and alone, impotent against the relentless cruelty of life.

In times past, magick has sustained me. In these recent days the ritual of magick has had little place among the trials of my life. And yet after so many years of willingly engaging the infinite, the Absolute, magick is simply a part of my existence. Though ritual ebbs and flows my conception of reality is forever intertwined with the gods and barely a day passes that I don't sense their presence. I can rarely walk down the street without noticing a 23 or a 69 or a bit of grafiti that commincates to me in some way.

So for me magick is evolving, or rather simplifying, to be the steady engagement of life and the personal impetus to create, to manifest my will into reality. Sometimes I'm drawn to ritual in those sudden moments when divinity plainly intervenes in the space of my awareness; when the clouds pass in front of the sunset and I can't help but merge into the vast rhythms of nature and creation, deified and omnipresent, timeless and forever sacred.

For me magick is a set of technologies to help me come to know myself better, to rediscover the god within that forgot itself upon this incarnation; it's the deep apprehension of the incomprehensible immensity and complexity of my being and the world in which I am embedded; the sudden awakening to the oneness of all things seen and unseen; and a map for the mind-shattering and inescapable rearranging of what I think I know about reality, so often pulled out from under me like a rug.

Once you've passed through the doorway, once the consensual mirror of How Things Are Supposed To Be is shattered by the unexpected ingression of novelty, once the seeming hand of god reaches into your world and, without warning and with no attempt to hide itself, asserts its authority to totally fuck with your world, then you can no longer go back no matter how much of the material world you armour yourself with.

I've come to understand and accept that, for me, ritual has its place and is essential to find the path, but once you're on it, once you've integrated the canon of esoterica over many years of engaging the mysteries, it will always flow through you. To me, there is no greater magick than the fact that my Self is directing a hundred billion cells or so to extrude the gossamer threads of thought washing across my cortex into codified semantics that I can then upload to the global digital hyperweb and feed to you.

The moments of apprehending the godhood of our mutual awareness of deity manifest as creation are the proof that magick exists. I think therefore I am magick.
 
 
Glandmaster
19:32 / 20.05.06
What does it provide that Science and Religion can't? How does it improve your life?

'Magic is not a necromanteia - a raising of dead material substances endowed with an imagined life - but a psychological branch of science, dealing with the sympathetic effects of stones, drugs, herbs, and living substances upon the imaginative and reflective faculties - and leading to ever new glimpses of the world of wonders around us, ranking it in due order of phenomena, and illustrating the beneficence of The Great Architect of the Universe.' - Kenneth R.H. Mackenzie

For me magick forms part of my practical action, but like all the tools at my disposal it gets used when I feel its appropriate.

Going back to Evskig's example (hope your moms ok btw!) I would have done the same for sure but would definatley have included healing. On myself first off, stressful times are no time to be stressed and I would want to be firing on all cylanders at such a crucial time. I would also have been keen to work with the doctors but as a healer I may be colouring this with my own specialism.

But then my attitudes as a healer may be the point - I dont perform healing rituals as such I am there hands on experiencing the bio feedback and observing the results. The closest I get to ritual would be distance healing but even then feedback is important and in either case I strictly work in a complimentary stance and insist my clients see the relevant health proffesionals to facilitate thier speediest and safest recovery.

This has made me think about my attitude to magick - doing the MLA chaos course at the moment has made me realise how little ritual and ceremonial practises are part of my work or seem to be worth doing for me. I guess the point Im trying to make is that magick is part of me and supports my life - sigils and servitors to support specific tasks / goals; healing as a trade and for self healing and divination to add a bit of confidence and the odd suprise from the sub concious. I dont think I ve ever tried a 'pure' magickal approach to anything if that makes sense.
 
 
EvskiG
19:56 / 20.05.06
LVX23 expressed some of my thoughts more beautifully and poetically than I ever could. And Glandmaster, thanks for the good wishes -- my mother is better than ever.

Personally, I just sort of stumbled into magic, and found it to be a fascinating and gratifying way of exploring, understanding, and changing myself and my relationship to the universe.

As LVX23 said, I see magic as a set of technologies. For much of my practice, pentacles and god names -- or, more generally, rituals -- were useful tools. Now I think I might need to build my own tools, or figure out if I need tools at all.

But I suspect I'll still be doing magic, one way or another.
 
 
---
20:22 / 20.05.06
What do you do when you have a crisis of faith?

Remember that I'm using this to help heal myself and get to a purer reality, and that it's what the universe would surely want me to be doing. Also that if I can do this properly and maintain it, I'm a better person to the people around me, and I can probably help heal/inspire others in whatever way I can more than I would've been able to do without it.
 
 
Unconditional Love
04:39 / 21.05.06
Its playful, it can exsist as a frame work beyond the scope of science and religion, very attractive to me. I dont think it requires faith but action, magic in that sense is perhaps a process of action.

If for example the attraction is to study the action of fire, then lighting a small fire with the box of matches and meditating on the resulting fire is beneficial, there isnt actually a conflict, if you interact with magic and magic/spirits do with you then no faith is required, Its similar to the comment lord switch made its the difference between trying to be something and being something.

breathing doesnt require faith, except when your drowning. Learning to swim better is perhaps a more viable option.
 
 
Quantum
12:18 / 21.05.06
Thanks for your responses everyone.
I find when in doubt I reset to first principles. Reality is pretty strange, and the common sense view of the world is clearly naive.
Take folk science for example, most people's understanding of how the material world works is based on what they learnt at school i.e. Newtonian mechanics and other 200 year old out of date stuff. So, to model the world more accurately I have to explain all the stuff that falls into the 'other' category, the stuff people conveniently ignore. By finding out what clever people think who've studied it hard I can get a better idea of what's what (learning about Einstein and QM for example) even if it seems weird or counter-intuitive.
So by studying what people have thought about weirdness, coincidence and mystical experiences I can get a better idea of what's likely to be true*.

I honestly think it's unreasonable to deny vast swathes of evidence and considered opinion, and the most reasonable working theory I can come up with includes magical truths. Sometimes I deliberately stop to think about the placebo effect, or the coincidence that makes the moon seem the same size as the sun from earth, or Youngs double slit experiment or Schroedinger's cat or any of the things which made me think 'Fuck me! That's absolutely amazing!' the first time I found out about them. I try to remind myself how much I take for granted, look at the world afresh, and that's where I rediscover the magic- it was under my nose the whole fucking time.
This is sometimes accompanied by stumbling over some sign that makes me smile, and I feel stupid for doubting it in the first place. I think the magic is always there, you just have to look. My mundane periods are probably just when I close my eyes, maybe I'll enchant my spectacles to keep my magic eyes working more easily.


*nothing, as it turns out
 
 
Queer Pirate
18:35 / 21.05.06
Why do people go to sleep? So that they can be up and running the next day.

Also, as you get more experienced with life, you start to understand that some of the negative stuff you are dealing with simply happens because you're tired. At this point, you can get enough distance to realize that a good night of sleep will make everything a bit better.

In regard to magice, there are cycles in everything and always being in "magical mode" is demanding - you do have to exert more attention and discipline. While it yields its rewards, you sometimes need a rest.

I think approaching those dry spells (pun not intended) as "I just need to rest up a bit and not bother about things too much" is a healthier attitude. The universe will bring answers in good time anyway, no matter how hard you think about it.

Sometimes I wonder why we die... Is it just because we need a little break from being alive?

Anyways, this is just a bit of speculation from someone who really doesn't know that much about magic.

* * *

I know that for me, I'm interested into magic because everything I tried before that did not bring satisfying answers that lasted (ironically, chaos magic now says that answers should last only as long as they are useful... which I guess is an interesting way of looking at things). The people who I have heard say the most insightful things were all either magicians or people who intrisically believed in something more than consensus reality. So I just went "hey, maybe these are on to something".

Are we beings who are denying themselves their own godhood or are we just tiny little things that are stranded on a raft in the middle of a raging ocean? Either way, I think the point to magic is to make us better at handling The Situation, no matter what it really is... and make us smile at our own stupidity every once in a while.
 
 
Ticker
21:20 / 21.05.06
There are ways of celebrating our experiences and framing them in our understanding, slapping relational tags of meaning on them, only arrived at magically. Perhaps the power of magic as a discipline is its ability to mix elements from others with a keen eye and a fast pick pocket approach. The visual and performative arts, the bounty of science, the wonder of ignorance, and the sincerity of religion, all of these can be readapted by our consciousness to solve a unique situation. A situation which perhaps the sourced discipline cannot on its own resolve due to restrictive perceptions.

When I have a crisis of faith I remember that sometimes you can do crappy magic, just like you can make bad art. Some people slap paint on a canvas and it looks grand, while other people's attempts look like cat vomit. Some folks dramaticly command the bonfire's smoke to shift and it does nothing. Other people merely smile and you notice none of the smoke is blowing in their direction. Ever. Given the choice of looking like an ass or pondering the mysteries you may just decide to stand up and move your chair.
 
 
LVX23
21:48 / 21.05.06
Sometimes I wonder why we die... Is it just because we need a little break from being alive?



QP, I agree very much with the sentiments in your post.
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
23:55 / 21.05.06
I've personally never accomplished much with magic, I just use it as a healthier alternative to conventional religion when I'm feeling spiritual. Also, sigils make wanking a lot more fufilling.

On top of all this, I have a nasty habit of entering lengthy conversations with Dionysus during the more brain-crippling periods of a good binge.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:39 / 22.05.06
Why magic? Because I've seen impossible things happen in front of my eyes. Because I've felt ancient primal Gods shake my being with their presence. Because I've been shaped and changed and forged in the heat of real magic and it's made me stronger, tougher, happier and more capable as a human being. Because it's tested me and made me do things I thought were impossible and shown me how small, stupid and blinkered my understanding of myself, the universe and everything in between really was. Because it's brought me close to the mysteries of the ocean, the river, the thunderstorm, the crossroads, the boneyard, the might of iron, the great serpent, the sun, the moon and the dark forest. I see them now with eyes that were closed and passive to the majesty of creation, but now they are my allies, my parents and my family. Because I have opened my heart to the Mysteries and everything around me has been remade in the image of the Divine. Because I am given guidance and support, counsel and strength, tools and inspiration. Because I let magic in and it moves through me so that I may be as a force of nature, not a unit of flesh moving within an unfathomable machine. Because with the Gods behind me and magic at my side I feel empowered - and I am empowered - to step up to the world, shake the palace and bring light in the darkness in whichever way my skills and talents might best be applied. Because I believe that every human being has the power to make overwhelming change to the world at large, and that magic - real living magic - is the key to doing so.

Why magic? You're having a laugh, aren't you mate?
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
10:29 / 22.05.06
Gypsy, I know you oppinion is that i should be doing some magic instead of making questions, but i'll try anyway: Which are that impossible things that have you seen? Please.

Trying to chart the phenomenollogy of magic can be considered as magic too, doesn't it?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:51 / 22.05.06
Gypsy, I know you opinion is that i should be doing some magic instead of making questions, but i'll try anyway: Which are that impossible things that have you seen?

If you know my opinion on such things, then you already know how I'm going to answer that question. I've seen some fucking crazy stuff in the context of magic that absolutely does my head in and which I can find no logical explanation for. But I'm not going to document any of it for people to pore over on the internet because it is personal and it is mine. I'm not interested in convincing anyone of anything. Step up to it, fully let it into your life and find your own truth about magic. Or don't.

Trying to chart the phenomenollogy of magic can be considered as magic too, doesn't it?

Not in my book.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:58 / 22.05.06
Trying to chart the phenomenollogy of magic can be considered as magic too, doesn't it?

In the same way that writing an essay on the reproductive system for GCSE Biology can be considered as getting laid.
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
14:02 / 22.05.06
In 1848, Ignaz Semmelweiss let know his colleagues proofs about the eficace of washing the hands before doing surgery. In that time, there was not any germ theory, so semmelweiss was taken as a fool, had to leave his country and died crazy.

So wash the hands before surgery would be seen as a kind of magic. One could, at that point, theorize that were the gods giving protection trought a water ritual, that was Chalchiuhtlicue giving her grace to Semmelweis, or maybe Latis, or whatever. Or maybe some kind of more mechanistical explanation: that water created a very thin invisible and protector shield to the illnesses. Whatever.

Maybe i'm only an unpleasant guy. I'm not mind-closed, so i really thing magic(k) can do something, and that's why I'm asking. Gispsy, I do my own magic, and writing these unpleasant posts can be seen like my own kind of magic(k) (ey, chaos magick is a do it your way, doesn't it).

Mordant, i know the difference between the practice and the theory. But, and that's what i'm saying, all i get from the forums are, following your analogy, eternal kamasutras. But when you ask for experiences ... oh! "These are my things!!, my personal things. Do it yourself" ... So it's easy saying: "I've seen incredible things!". Then gets one guy and says: "what things?" - "oh, no no, these are my things".

Ack. Science (and i think you were saying you want to make this things science) didn't get up with people saying "these are my things". There are a lot of people who risks their reputation, their social relationships getting on things that are strange. And this people in fact tells their experiences, in a way that can make rich that field of knowledge.

Maybe it is that i'm unpleasant to you. I understand you don't want to tell me nothing.

Yes. I'm a moron. Viva la pepa.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:52 / 22.05.06
But when you ask for experiences ... oh! "These are my things!!, my personal things. Do it yourself" ... So it's easy saying: "I've seen incredible things!". Then gets one guy and says: "what things?" - "oh, no no, these are my things".

Bollocks. I write about my experiences with magic all the time. I've published some deeply, ridiculously personal stuff under my real name in Generation Hex. I spent all yesterday writing up more of it for my next book. But there is a careful balance to be maintained between what can and should be revealed and what should not really be spoken about at all. Ever. Some of it I don't even talk to my nearest and dearest about. "To keep silent" is no idle admonition. It comes with the territory of magic and is often a difficult one to navigate if you also happen to be a writer.

I hold my tongue about the Mysteries when I need to. I don't blab it all over the net to draw attention to myself and get people to look at me because that's not what it's about. I'm very careful about how I discuss my practice as it actually means something to me, and is not about hand waving or trying to impress people. I rarely speak directly or openly about my practice because I really don't feel that I can. I talk about it to the extent I feel I am able to and I try to do that as clearly and lucidly as possible.

I should never have put that line into the piece above, as it was bound to draw out people who want the pornography of magic laid out to wank over. I decide what I think should be disclosed when I write about magic, what I feel I have assimilated enough to allow into the public domain, and what is too personal to really discuss with people and probably always will be. If you don't like that, I don't really give a toss.

I'm never going to go into the details of something like "impossible things I've seen in the context of magic" because it wouldn't really mean anything to you. It would just be text on a screen to you and the act of blabbing about it all on the net would just cheapen my experiences. It would turn what was for me, world shattering moments of high weirdness, into so much disposable web garbage served up for passive consumption of total strangers.

These things are private and intimate, and if you don't understand that enough to respect my desire to keep silent about certain things, then you don't understand a damned thing about magic.

Yes, you are increasingly coming across like moron. Please try to curb it.
 
 
Ticker
14:59 / 22.05.06
I've witnessed the Trooping Fairies on their march from Ben Bulben to Knocknarea, been overwhelmed by the grief the land, been rendered inconsolable by Carmina Burana during a Guinness commercial because the land is without a King, summoned a life partner from a far using a hyper sigil, been greeted by unexpected guardians who just so happen to have the key to the locked cairn, witnessed to shape change under the influence of drugs, and experienced the awe and joy of the Divine before a statue in the British Museum.
To me these all are a part of my magical experiences.

Now the danger in listing my sacred events in this medium and presenting them to strangers, is to risk the dismissive power of another. For many people the qualities which allow them to *know* the experience as magical escapes language and becomes a matter of faith. Talking about matters of faith is mostly useless because it is all about the personal context.


Don't wear polyester in my tabernacle and I'll talk.

Also, Gypsy Lantern, that was the most vivid and inspirational description of magic I have read in a long time. Thank you.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:05 / 22.05.06
s3r3bro, no-one's hiding things from you because they don't like you. While it's a good thing to try and bring scientific discipline to magic, that doesn't mean that everyone somehow has a duty to report all their findings in public; let alone report them on an internet messageboard.

The big scary reality-bending events tend to be very personal, very private. Often there's an important message involved that can't or should not be shared with just anybody. Sometimes you only want to talk about this with a few trusted friends. Sometimes you don't want to talk to anyone at all.

If you want to see some real results, the Look what I can do! thread might be a good place to start. Otherwise, maybe you should see what you can do.
 
 
SteppersFan
16:56 / 22.05.06
Wot Gypsy said, or to put it another way, magic is its own reward. For me, it normally feels pretty good in and of itself and when it doesn't, there's usually a good reason for it. I don't really have a utilitarian or "results" perspective on magic; I don't do magic to "get things", though it has worked well in the past. it's horses for courses innit - physically being with your mum to help her kinda IS magic.
 
 
Quantum
17:02 / 22.05.06
I wonder if I can coin an internet acronym that means 'What Gypsy and Mordant said'? It's tiresome to type it out every time.
When you describe an amazing coincidence and read it back it just seems... flat. Without the detail and the backstory, life-changing miracles sound like mild dementia and drugfuckery. If I tell you about the time some friends watched Apocalypse Now on acid and a helicopter shone a searchlight in the window at the appropriate moment, you might think 'Oh, that's unusual!' but if you were there you would think it was the end of the fucking world and your brains would explode out of your ears. That's the difference between first-hand and second-hand experience, and why Gypsy won't tell you about his amazing experiences here- it would cheapen them, as he more eloquently says above.

Gypsy- I am indeed having a laugh, or more accurately seeing how other people get past humps, plateaus and losing-the-fucking-path-completely in their practice. Rhetorical I admit, but affirming. At the moment I'm having trouble maintaining my magical mindset so to speak, in fact having trouble maintaining any kind of optimism or functionality (is that a word?). It's a vicious circle, I'm too crushed to practice just when I need magic to get me out of the place where I can't do magic. My current plan is to snap out of it by throwing myself into life and kicking the shit out of any obstacles that cross me, but as my inclination is to sit on the sofa in self-pitying ennui my Will is being taxed heavily. Any short cuts or top tips to beat the vicious circle and instigate positive feedback loops much appreciated, I feel like I have to climb out of a pit, build a ladder to get to a lower branch, arduously climb the tree in order to get to the Abyss and then face a deeper and different hole. The tree (otz chaim or Yggdrasil) looks even taller when lying flat on your back with broken legs.
 
 
Quantum
17:36 / 22.05.06
Meh. Over-disclosure and self pity, I'm annoying myself. Normal fictionsuit service will resume shortly when I find my relentless-optimism hat and arrogance socks again. Anyone got a good finding spell?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:40 / 22.05.06
Quants, you do realise that you've just ensured that the Powers are going to wallop you over the head with more weirdness than you can comfortably accomodate, starting Tuesday evening at the latest?

Just sayin.
 
 
Ticker
17:45 / 22.05.06
Quantum,

This is exactly why I spend a lot of time thinking about the motivation to do this work. I'm a bit obsessed with the idea that one requires a reason to move through these ordeals. I understand that some folks' reason is curiosity, but I'm after the ones that drag you out of bed or out the door. Sometimes self transformation isn't enough.

As I've detailed elsewhere, I'm delving into Ordeals as my primary source of ritual so please pardon me if repeat myself. But when one has to put forth massive effort to complete a work, regardless if it is CM or a hook suspension, what kicks you in the ass to get all the way through?

If your act is beneficial to your community or your Divinity it appears to be a much larger motivator than if it is just for your own experience. Having to go into the Underworld (of whatever flavor) retracing the Hero's path makes things a lot clearer than if you're just exploring.

These things are hard, often dangerous, and tiring. The treasure offered at the other end may not be enough sometimes.

One of my friends is always after me to take him to an active haunting. No matter how hard I try to explain that the danger of such things offsets my curiosity he doesn't seem to understand. I only place myself in the vicinity of such things on behalf of someone truly troubled by them not just to be a tourist. I've got plenty of daily mundane things to trouble my sleep.

So what is your reason to venture into the Mysteries? What is the Muse that calls to you, or the Tyrant which forces you?
 
 
E. Coli from the Milky Way
18:14 / 22.05.06
Well. I can say I saw an alien on my bed not to call attention on me. I use a nickname. I separe my normal waking life from the magical/paranoid one. So, well, the thing of the alien it is know by two people and all of you.

Because I think all this thing of magic has to be with human mind, and, in a last term, we are charting human mind with our experiences. We're doing things on the same way, i have not a problem on sharing them.

Gipsy, what's the difference between talking about this things on a book and talking about this things on an . internet forum? I don't want you to convince me. I'm convinced on my own the reality is wider than we suspect. That i'm asking you is "how wider".

As I said to before, if you don't want to tell me anything, i respect your decission. I know people who have seen elves (and not on drugs). People who has been visited by spirits of deceased ones. These people are who give the less importance on their vivencies. Believe me i take these things seriously.

I'm only trying to understand what's going on on Magick.
Not on the thing of changing yourself, metaprogramming or things like that.Or livin' exciting thought associations inside your weirdness. Everybody does it. I do it. I don't call it magic, indeed it has any consequence in "consensuous reality", and that are the kind of things i'm asking for.

I've said that kind of magic on people who was not doing magic conciously.

And if i ask is because here we are supposed to talk about this things- So if i don't ask here, where may I ask?

@Mordant: What can i do? I know i can ask people and piss them off :-) I have made a ritual calling Hermes and Kermit the frog. Maybe you're right, and better I quite doin' magic(k).

How's my moron'o'meter?? Is gettin' higher?
 
 
Queer Pirate
05:48 / 23.05.06
Any short cuts or top tips to beat the vicious circle and instigate positive feedback loops much appreciated, I feel like I have to climb out of a pit, build a ladder to get to a lower branch, arduously climb the tree in order to get to the Abyss and then face a deeper and different hole.

Quantum: Advice is of limited use, but I find that in times of rut and depression, questioning your attachment to the negativity of the situation usually helps. Maybe you should think about what makes it difficult to you to leave the "comfort" of your current situation, about what you fear change might bring.

Also, anything that allows you to stop your internal dialogue without resorting to non-productive escapism will probably do you some good, whether it is yoga, taichi or making art.

Finally, I find that "waiting to be ready" or "being sure of what you want" are sometimes overrated - I don't know if these apply to your situation, but they often do in times of rut. Sometimes leaping into something blindly is a good way of making things happen, although it can be a risky endeavour.

I do hope that you manage to get over this, Quantum. When life hurts, it hurts real bad.
 
 
illmatic
11:47 / 23.05.06
I have a bit of a problem with the way some of the opening queries are raised there, Quants. As the subsequent exchange between Gypsy and wassisface shows, I think you can get caught up in looking for AMAZING things. This is also what I don’t like about the Grant Morrison “transvestite scorpions tied me to bed and fucked my MIND” interviews. Can’t whatever it is we’re reaching for – and lets not forget that ‘s not homogenous – be something a bit quieter? Less about US and our big experiences? More about meaning, purpose, orientation? We privilege the written word in our culture and these glamorous sounding description will naturally rise to the top but what if a) the person you’re reading is jazzing up what’s happened to them and b) you get so caught up in preconceptions drawn from reading you discount and disregard your own experiences when they’re not ammmmmaaazzzzing?
 
 
Ticker
14:58 / 23.05.06
Illmatic

That's an excellent point. Some of the most profound magic is quite quiet and subtle.

Quantum

I had a long think about what you were saying and I wanted to tell you something concise, and hopefully, useful. Magic is the tool I use when I don't consciously know the steps to solve a problem.

If I want to get a new job I redo my resume and start hasslehoffing headhunters. But when I want a new career and have no clue wtf I should be doing, I use ritual magic.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:34 / 23.05.06
Quants
I am indeed having a laugh, or more accurately seeing how other people get past humps, plateaus and losing-the-fucking-path-completely in their practice.

My approach to "dry spells" is, more-or-less ... wait and see what turns up. On all the occasions I've made a major decision to "give magic a rest for a while" something unexpected has turned up - usually taking me in a new - unlooked-for direction, and occasionally with major life-path consequences. In the mid-1980s for example, I quit my existing job and moved to York in order to pursue a professional qualification that would have given me an excellent career in that field. I thought to myself "Okay, no weirdness. Time to buckle down. Do degree. Get Job. Collect major salary." Naturally it didn't work out like that, and needless to say, what ensued was three years of extreme weirdness, by the middle of which I'd decided not to pursue that particular career path, and subsequently ended up in a squat in Leeds, just in time to catch the second wave of the Chaos scene. So now, when I find myself in a period of humpiness, I wait, or use it as an opportunity to critically assess what I've been doing and have a bit of a conceptual tidy-up and clearing-out.
 
 
Quantum
16:51 / 23.05.06
more weirdness than you can comfortably accomodate

Not tonight I suspect- but I've set up my weekend...

Trouserian, thank you for that- I've noticed similar trends in the past but I always think *this time* it won't get weird again and I'll end up an unhappy accountant in a cubicle. I think taking the time to conceptually spring-clean is excellent advice.
 
 
Quantum
17:17 / 23.05.06
something a bit quieter? Less about US and our big experiences? More about meaning, purpose, orientation?

I wasn't necessarily meaning I need daily miracles or constant epiphanies, just sometimes it feels like the meaning is gone, the way is lost, I've forgotten my purpose. Do you know what I mean? It's relatively easy to have big experiences (I have some DMT for example) but that's not what I'm after.
Magic is like my mum- I might know she's around, think of her occasionally, but I still miss her, and when I get to see her it's great. That's possibly the worst example ever, sorry mum.
 
 
SteppersFan
18:02 / 23.05.06
Quantum's thought that magic is just like one's mum is possibly the most erudite thing I've seen posted here for a while - and it's been a good couple of weeks in Temple...

For instance... magic will sometimes leave you alone to sort things out on your own for a while before getting back in touch. These "dry spells" may not be an accident.
 
 
jihadreflection
00:34 / 24.05.06
Do you see magic as.

A spiritual path that when followed will lead you to enlightenment.
(In most magical systems a hierarchical path that has stages of consciousness/awareness that the initiate proceeds through)

A shamanic path.
(which from my point of view seems to be a way of using sorcery specifically to help the tribe though it may also have elements of the spiritual path)

A set of tools that change consciousness with sorcery tacked on.
(Practical psychology with a method to create action at a distance)

It seems to me that magic is a useless word. It can mean so many things it ends up meaning nothing. Chaos magic seemed to me like sorcery and psychology for nihilists. The recent trend seems to be swinging back towards an ill defined/personal deism with liberal humanist philosophy thrown into the mix.
Define what magic appears to be for you and you may have an answer. I personally don’t believe in enlightenment, higher powers, true will or any moral system.
If you do then it would seem pertinent to define exactly what set of exercises/techniques you want to use to reach this stage of discovery.
Myself I use psychology and sorcery as tools and don’t attach any moral system to them, sorcery is a crappy tool and so can only be used occasionally and with sporadic success. (In my opinion). Applied psychology depends on what results you want, the trend again seems to be to attach a moral system to the psychology. Define what you think magic is and you may find your answer.
 
  

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