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The Pop-Punk and Post-Hardcore Movement

 
  

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matthew.
01:11 / 18.05.06
My workmates and I listen to a lot of heavy music at work in order to keep a good pace going. No use listening to The Cranberries when you're running around. We listen to a variety of new school metal that some classify as punk, and we listen to a lot of punk some would classify as emo, or screamo. From what I can tell, not a lot of Barbeloids listen to any of these bands:
Thrice, Atreyu, Avenged Sevenfold, Plain White T's, Underoath, Alexisonfire, Moneen, Hawthorne Heights, Saves The Day, Matchbook Romance, From First to Last, AFI, Taking Back Sunday, The Used, My Chemical Romance, Funeral For A Friend, Finch, From Autumn To Ashes, Silverstein, Something Corporate, The Starting Line, and lots and lots more.

These bands are notable for very aggressive, but clean guitar riffs, not gutterpunk style, very clean. There's sometimes two lead singers: a screamer and a clean singer. The screamer will choke out the verses while the singer belts out the chorus and bridge. The lyrics often deal with heartbreak and infidelity. I find the lyrics of most of these bands to be shallow, one-dimensional and rather obvious. On the flipside, some bands opt for the overly opaque lyrics about parchments and penguins (see Chiodos). Sometimes the lyrics are phenomenal, as in Thrice or AFI.

Sometimes the fashion aspect is far too important: tight girl jeans, white belt, skate-shoes, tight black t-shirt with a band logo (you must advertise another band, to help identify yourself), clean-shaven, long greasy black hair combed over an eye, a lebret or eyebrow piercing, and the earrings must be over-sized. This is for the males of the group. The influences in fashion come from The Misfits (the hair) and skate-punk fashion.

Post-punk, pop-punk, etc, fashion also has an interesting element of sexual ambiguity involved. Not only is the scene very gay-friendly, but it also invites (maybe not the best word) sexual experimentation. This is anecdotal, but I have seen straight males make out at parties and at shows. It's extremely chic to be sexually ambiguous and mysterious. A lot of emo kids will self-identify as bisexual.

The bands also use the Internet heavily to self-promote and build interest. A lot of bands no longer buy domains; rather, they create a MySpace page. The aid and culture of MySpace cannot be overstated when it comes to this genre of music. Along with PunkRockVids.com and PureVolume, MySpace has helped a lot of these bands get their fans. It's very cool within this genre for fans to discover a never before heard band (and wear their T-shirt, of course).

This new type of music has evolved from the tight eighties' metal (as opposed to dirty gutter punk) and from the emo subgenre. I wish to avoid a debate on whether or not these above bands are, in fact, emo. It doesn't matter. What does matter, is that these bands are often saddled with labels such as post-punk, pop-punk, hardcore, fashioncore, mallcore, scenesters, grindcore, gothcore, glam punk and other such words that all amount to the fact that it's no longer punk and no longer has a punk ethic (DIY, Fugazi, anti-label, etc) and tailors to a very young and very middle-class market.

For me, the highlight of those above bands is Thrice, a band often called post-punk. Their lyrics, composed by Dustin Kensrue, are mostly about spiritual, intellectual and emotional growth - opening your eyes and seeing the flaws to improve. For example, one song, The Earth Will Shake, on the new record called Vheissu, uses the chain gang songs as a metaphor for spiritual freedom:

we dream of ways to break these iron bars
we dream of black nights without moon or stars
we dream of tunnels and of sleeping guards
we dream of blackouts in the prison yard

heartbroken, we found a gleam of hope
harken to the sound, a whistle blows
heaven sent reply, however small
evidence of life beyond these walls
born and bred in this machine
wardens dread to see us dream
we hold tight to legends of
real life, the way it was before

we dream of jailers throwing down their arms
we dream of open gates and no alarms

look to the day the earth will shake
these weathered walls will fall away

More literary posters will see that the album title, Vheissu, comes from Thomaas Pynchon's V.. There's a decent anecdote about Thrice that I heard. My friend was at this party after the Warped Tour and Thrice and some other bands showed up. For most of the evening, Thrice sat in a corner by themselves. Finally, they stood up and informed the host that they were leaving to go read some sci-fi novels. A glance at the recommendations page of their website shows an avid interest in science fiction, fantasy and horror.

I'm detailing Thrice because I believe they are an excellent representation of this mostly maligned but impressive-selling genre of music. This is what's selling records in North America now. Gone are the days of NOFX, Pennywise, The Offspring, ALL, or Rancid. Now are the days of Fallout Boy, and the other million bands out there that cite Green Day as a major influence. Green Day or Guns N Roses.

Post-punk may be incorrectly attributed to these bands. As I understand it, post-punk appears to be mostly experimental, avant-garde, atonal, free-form and mostly jazz-structure inspired.

The reason why I wrote all this is because I'd like to get into a nice discussion of the future of punk-pop music and its merits. It's pop, yes, but that doesn't mean it sucks. I'd like discussion on the sexual ambiguity of emo and the fashion aspects of it.

If anybody would like some recommendations of the superior bands of this genre, I am happy to suggest. As with any large group, there's the shit, the mediocre, the best and everything in between.

Some links:
 
 
All Acting Regiment
07:03 / 18.05.06
That's a long opening post, Matt, whether or not people agree with it.

I'm surrounded by people who like this kind of music, I hear a lot of it in people's flats and so on. I dislike it intensely, at a personal level, but I'm not sure I can particularly relate why.

Crudely- and this will need some taking apart- it has to do with middle-class white males (i.e. the privileged) talking about some form of life-wrecking horror. I don't like this, I don't see them as being in a position to whinge- but then, what am I saying, college boys aren't allowed to write sad songs?

They seem to have no overt politics whatsoever, which leaves us with the covert politics of "woman done me wrong" and "no-one understands me". Bit controversial, this, but can you get more fascist?

I don't like the lyrics. They just don't seem to have any kind of poetic spark to them, and then you've got this banal imagery- literally, "I'm going to cut my wrists" level of discourse presented with no irony (but see below). The song "Last Train to Clarkseville" by the Monkees brings me to tears quicker than any direct reference to self-harm, etc, crucially I think because- and I say this from judgement and some experience of helping friends, but yes, ultimately specualtion- the emo singer just hasn't been into self harm, at all. If they would, methinks they might have a more highly personal level of engagement with it (a la Arthur Lee, Iggy Pop, Lady Day, oh, sod it, anyone who's anyone...)

I think the real sucker is this whole issue of "emotional" "honesty". Looking at these bands, I see ironic, staged, formalised, routine signifiers of "emotion"- the grasping hand movements, the wilting against the mic- their (always fuzzily defined) emotion is theatrical, just like 50 Cent's violence. There's nothing wrong with that. Most everything in music is theatrical. Yet, the whole premise of the genre- the reason why it's supposed to be better and unique and "the thing to be into" is because it is more "honestly emotional" than, well, everything else*. But it's not, is it?

*This being something touted by (white) music critics as making it prefferable to (black) hip-hop/(black influenced) rap metal etc- just sayin'.

On the other hand, at university age I'm aware that for the first time in my life there is a new generation of 15-18-year-olds below me, and some of them like this stuff. Maybe it's just their thing. In contrast to my earlier, shitty days here, I no longer feel the need to slag it off just because I'm not part of the crowd.

There we go. All very subjective, but there's my tuppence.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
07:12 / 18.05.06
Also- not so much why does "emo" qualify as "emotional"- but why doesn't everything qualify?
 
 
werwolf
07:44 / 18.05.06
i agree with Legab Rex on so many levels, that "i agree!" doesn't even cut it close.

for me, the term 'emo' is tightly knit with acts like SWING KIDS and UNION OF URANUS and also the OLD GLORY LABEL as well as STILL LIFE's genre-defining record "building" and contemporaries such as GET Up KIDS and the like and all similar acts and labels of that time. back then 'emo' was only a way to discern between the bulk of machoist, tough-guy, straight edge hardcore and the new more introspective lyrical themes of the new acts. that just on a tangent.

as to all of these pop-punk, soft metalcore, whatchamacallit bands - some of them really get some good stuff out there, but mostly i have the same problem with it as Legab Rex does. mostly it's neither honest, nor funny, nor witty, nor original. true, there are copy cats in every gerne and there is bad, mediocre and good in every genre, but i don't think i have seen so many cookie-cutter bands in one genre as in this one. and what's even more of a turn off: they do not only look alike, they sound alike and sometimes i even have the feeling that there's somebody writing the lyrics for all of them. once in a while a band stands out, like MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE or PANIC! AT THE DISCO but most of the time the experience is something like: "oookay... boring. next."

yet to their defense i have to say that obviously there are many, many young people who can identify with the act ( % mostly teenagers, mostly in their puberty... hmm, go figure... % ) and these bands are not shy at all to outright state their claim to mainstream visibility and position. therefore i cannot really argue against them, because in all their hollow theatrics and cliche they are pulling they are still honest about what they are aiming for.
 
 
johnny enigma
08:23 / 18.05.06
Hmmm, the term "post-punk" to me always meant bands like Joy Division and so forth..........
 
 
power vacuums & pure moments
08:40 / 18.05.06
I think youve sort of lumped quite a few relatively unconnected bands together there matt. Thrice, Atreyu and Avenged Sevenfold [decaying stilton salesmen] are straight ahead metal with some melodic elements imo [dont really have a clean sound, lots of o.d on the heavy riffs]. A lot of Emo kids seem to like them but musically they stand apart from the rest of the acts.

I would definately agree with your suspicion that 'post-punk' is the wrong term for this stuff. Genre labels are amorphous bollox really but my understanding of post punk/post-hardcore is similar to yours, somehow experimental music which maintains the punk attitude and style in some way. Wouldnt say atonal, just not rigidly diatonic. 'Shape of Punk to Come' era Refused, At the-Drive-in, Kneejerk & Milliondead.

The best emo band i have come across has to be Thursday. Inventive melodies and some great lyrics apparently influenced by William Burroughs.

For the Workforce, Drowning

Falling from the top floor your lungs
fill like parachutes
windows go rushing by.
people inside,
dressed for the funeral in black and white.
These ties strangle our necks, hanging in the closet,
found in the cubicle;
without a name, just numbers, on the resume stored in the mainframe, marked for delete.

and we're up to our necks,
drowning in the seconds,
ingesting the morning commute
lost in a dead subway sleep
Now we lie wide awake in our parents beds,
tossing and turning.
tomorrow we'll get up
drive to work,
single file
with everyday
it's like the last.
waiting for the life to start, is it always just always ahead of the curve?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:53 / 18.05.06
Post-punk is such a misleading term for the type of music you seem to be wanting to discuss in this thread, matt, that I'd suggest you might want to take it out of the title.

Post-punk is usually used to refer to a number of bands who were making music immediately after the heyday of punk, ie. 1978-1984, including Public Image Ltd, Gang Of Four, the Pop Group, Scritti Politti, Devo, Wire, Magazine and many more. Although I'm not a big fan of Simon Reynolds in general, his recent book Rip It Up & Start Again is widely agreed to be an invaluable resource when it comes to this kind of music, and even glancing at the chapter summaries there certainly helps illustrate why it's a whole other thing than what this thread is about.

An even better resource is the Rough Trade Shops - Post Punk Vol.1 compilation, which also illustrates some connections between post-punk 1978-1984 and the more recent bands who've been influenced by and consequently categorised as post-punk (The Futureheads, The Rapture, etc.). Some cracking tunes on there.
 
 
matthew.
13:07 / 18.05.06
I just thought of something more I wanted to discuss, forgot to put it in the opening post and now I'm reminded. I did speak of the labels being thrown at them. I did speak of the future of pop-punk et al. I wanted Post-Punk in there because this is the future of post-punk. I know it's misleading. But I'm not the one throwing the post-punk term at these bands. I didn't start calling them that. So it begs the question, why are these bands being called post-punk by critics and themselves? The bands mentioned have eschewed the punk ethos but maintain a strict skate-punk influence. So we could maybe discuss why these bands are called punk or post-punk and where we see post-punk going.

And devo, even if A7X and Atreyu don't exactly fit in there, Thrice certainly does. I left out a bazillion bands in that listing, some harder than others. Certainly Atreyu self-identifies closer with the screamo or emo sound than "straight ahead metal with some melodic elements". You are right about A7X. A gander in the shout-out sections of all three bands will show that they mention all of the listed bands and more.

I love Panic At the Disco. Great meta-lyrics and great vocals. I've never met a band so interested in themselves.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:23 / 18.05.06
I didn't start calling them that. So it begs the question, why are these bands being called post-punk by critics and themselves?

Ignorance of history? Possibly the problem is that the US didn't have such a well-defined post-punk period, because punk itself was not as big, so bands llike Flock of Seagulls slid into electro/pop as a genre. Therefore, things like Green Day are in the US punk, whereas in the UK they are post-post-punk-punk. The tendency to return periodically to three-chord songs (because they're easy and catchy) was best captured, I always thought, in the ineffably wanky NWONW (New Wave of New Wave) in the early-to-mid 90s.
 
 
Mmothra
13:43 / 18.05.06
Ummm, Rites of Spring?

Darn, back to lurking, grandpa.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:46 / 18.05.06
I think Matt points out something interesting in his starting post, and it's connected to the idea of the interchangeability of these bands as mentioned at a point upthread. You say you like listening to these bands specifically at work- is soundtracking going on, then? Are these bands more about having a suitable soundtrack for the event than having an interest in specific, "unique" bands? Is this connected to Ipods?
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
18:31 / 19.05.06
In my experience, the wave of bands led by Green Day and the Offspring in the early-mid nineties was always referred to as pop-punk here in the US.
 
 
ibis the being
20:47 / 19.05.06
Jake, lately I seem to be popping into threads right after you and you have just said what I was going to say. Maybe it's a New Englander thing.

Also, I have to say that hearing bands like NOFX, Pennywise, The Offspring, ALL, Rancid, and Fugazi referred to as part of a bygone age makes me feel incredibly old, and I'm not even 30. In my day, The Offspring and Rancid were generally viewed (and often derided) as pseudo-punk poseurs, and we showered under the spray from a wooly mammoth's trunk, but perhaps that's neither here nor there.

I've never heard any of the bands Matt mentioned, but if I understand what he's describing, I'd say "post-punk" is a misnomer any way you slice it. That's like calling Norah Jones post-jazz or post-chanteuse. It's pop music. What's wrong with calling it pop music, which is after all a pretty broad category?
 
 
matthew.
02:55 / 20.05.06
I'm sad to hear that somebody thought Rancid was poseur. I always thought they were punk. I mean, And Out Come The Wolves's cover art is in homage to the Minor Threat album cover. That's fairly punk, right?
 
 
Jack Denfeld
07:29 / 20.05.06
I've never heard any of the bands Matt mentioned
Unfortunately I've heard about all of them. This was the scene in Virginia Beach, alot of my friends were into it, and therefore I went to a lot of shows. I didn't like the music much, I couldn't stand the cookie monster vocals, although some of the cobra commander vocals were good like the Blood Brothers.

Bands were labeled either metal (or metal-core) or hardcore (but weren't really tough guy Agnostic Front hardcore),but emo was hardly uttered, like it was a secret shame.

And fashion was big. Chyna Clugston-Major type haircuts, the girl jeans and girl jackets(I still have a dickies one), clean shaven (although there was an indie beard thing creeping in), and the white belts.

The sexual ambiguity thing was cool though, as even if it was a fad for straight boys to make out, and for straight kids to trek out to the gay club on Thursday nights, I hope that rubs off as those kids being less homophobic than the average kid in the future. Having just recently moved to Northern Florida which doesn't really have that scene I'm shocked at the young kids using homophobic language so often (although one might have nothing at all to do with the other).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:53 / 20.05.06
Haus and Fly... I think we may just be getting too old. Maybe punk is dead, after all. It's like how "garage" and "r&b" don't mean what they used to either. We're square, sad and behind the times.

Fuck it, where's Alex's Gran? I fancy some gin.
 
 
matthew.
12:58 / 20.05.06
I've never heard any of the bands Matt mentioned, but if I understand what he's describing, I'd say "post-punk" is a misnomer any way you slice it.

What about calling it post-hardcore?

In fact, I'm going to mod it. Flyboy, if you would?
 
 
haus of fraser
13:37 / 20.05.06
I think that both Haus and Fly offer up good pointers though...

I always find it interesting learning about the history and background of musical genres/ styles. And while Punk was more Brit-centric in the 70's its worth remembering the New York/ Detroit scenes that started it all with The Ramones, New York Dolls, Stooges, Pere Ubo etc.

Without wanting to sound patronising what do Barbelith posters consider to be 'punk'?

For me its pretty strictly bands that fell into the 1975-78 period and includes The Clash, The Sex Pistols, X-Ray Spex, Richard Hell & The Voidoids, The Adverts, The Damned, The Ramones.

Of course many of its fashion statements and ethos have spread far and wide giving the term a new meaning - mostly DIY poppy heavy metal bands with short hair and piercings.

Other reading on the history of 'Punk' that i can recommend is Legs McNeil and Gillian McCain's excellent 'Please Kill Me' which follows the New York Scene from the Velvet Underground/ Stooges late 60's period to the British invasion and the death of Sid Vicious. I loved the story about how Malcolm McClaren played the pistols 'Blank Generation' by Richard Hell- but told them to write their own version- theirs was Pretty Vacant... and then Hell explains how the phrase was misunderstood as a nilhist statement- when in fact it was intended to mean fill in the blank- as in do whatever you want- become whatever you want.

I can also recommend Jon Savages 'Englands Dreaming' which tells a similar story from the english perspective- good stuff- also worth noting the heavy influence of reggae and dubb on the British scene- giving its own identity- check out Don Letts compilation Dread Meets Punk Rockers Uptown to hear what i mean- a really good CD that includes Junior Murvins original version of Police & Thieves.

I would happily offer up a compilation of any of this stuff for the uninitiated- how much are new Punk fans aware of its history? Is it relevent any more?

I've tried listening to the new punk pop scene but to be honest it leaves me pretty cold- I'm certainly curious of its origins- i know bands like Offspring seemed more aware of Punk's roots both politically and musically- covering smash it Up by the Damned and working with indie labels- but do the newer punk bands/ fans look back to the 70's or just to the recent history? Emo is definitely something that has made me feel old- i remember looking the term up online about a year or so ago cos i didn't know what it meant!

Anyway this thread has left me feeling a little bit like Grandad- but for those that what to talk about punk/ post punk roots i hope i haven't rotted things too much.

Pass the gin...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:52 / 20.05.06
I mean, And Out Come The Wolves's cover art is in homage to the Minor Threat album cover. That's fairly punk, right?

Well, I'm not a big fan of trying to decide what is and what isn't punk, but what I don't think it's about is showing reverence to an established punk rock canon. Having said that I've never been a fan of Minor Threat either...
 
 
haus of fraser
13:52 / 20.05.06
In fact, I'm going to mod it. Flyboy, if you would?

Maybe include the term Post-Hardcore in the thread title but leave the post punk. For me the notion of talking about all punk associated genres is too good an opportunity to miss- where i can see that the thread isn't going in the intended direction- I like the way its going, opening it up to broader debate.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:57 / 20.05.06
I second the recommendation of England's Dreaming - it is essential, essential reading, one of the best books about music ever, and particularly what Jon Savage sees as the difference between "punk" and "punk rock"... I'll say more on this when I find my copy or buy a replacement.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:41 / 20.05.06
I always find it interesting learning about the history and background of musical genres/ styles. And while Punk was more Brit-centric in the 70's its worth remembering the New York/ Detroit scenes that started it all with The Ramones, New York Dolls, Stooges, Pere Ubo etc.

This is why I generally try to differentiate between US and UK punk- then of course you've got the US punk/hardcore scene of the Dead Kennedys, Black Flag etc... which of course years later turned into the "punk" of Offspring (who I quite like some of), Green Day (who I don't) etc...

Rancid I always find quite a strange case, as while they're a big part of the US hardcore/punk scene, they take an awful lot more of their cues, both musically and aesthetically, from the British stuff... which brings us onto American ska-punk and... actually, maybe a "what is punk" thread could be quite fun. I could bang on for hours. I'll bring the Strongbow Super.

Does white cider mix well with gin?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
14:57 / 20.05.06
I've aleays vfound thjat to be thhe case, yes.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:18 / 20.05.06
Three things come to mind. First, thinking about the dub/world/reggae influence (appropriation?) of the late 70s/80s stuff, do we still see this today? That is, crossover of one sort or another between different subcultures/ethnicities, and so on.

Also- am I right in thinking that the late 70's/80s bands were doing unheard of things with synths, tape loops and so on? Assuming they were (Throbbing Gristle?), is that a continuing tradition? Should it be? Or did the instrumental experimentation pass over to hip hop (in terms of the whole new idea of mixing and scratching)?

Thirdly- thinking of say, Throbbing Gristle and The Fall and others- they have a reputation in the papers for being contrary, deliberately frightening/weird/rebellious- firstly, was this true (were they all they're cracked up to be in terms of transgression), and secondly, is that a continuing tradition today?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:20 / 20.05.06
(I mean all those questions in the context of the genre Matt's talking about, mind)
 
 
one point, oh
16:07 / 20.05.06
but do the newer punk bands/ fans look back to the 70's or just to the recent history?

My housemate is a young punk fan (20) and has a strong reverence for the 70’s punk era, not so much the bands you mentioned however (The Clash, The Sex Pistols, X-Ray Spex). He certainly has a lot of respect for those bands and would probably give them the credit for kick starting the movement, but he is far more likely to listen to bands from a slightly later generation; the bands, who in hindsight, seem less musically rocky and more punky (UK Subs [who are still around], Crisis, The Dead Kennedys, Conflict, Sham 69, etc...).

As for modern day punk he’d tend to avoid greenday and co. He is a mohawk clad politics student with a youthful hatred of authority who still clings to the hope of revolution, he drinks to excess and idolizes (although he’d claim he has no idols) Bukowski; I get the feeling somehow greenday moaning about walking a lonely road doesn’t quite cut it. He is more likely to listen to Chocking Victim, Leftover Crack, or Rubella Ballet. The message is still alive out and there; riot grrl and anarcho punk still beating that drum strong.

The point I am making is that punk is not dead; the problem is the pop-artists themselves and silly critics making the link, associating them with punk. The same has happened in recent years somewhat with the indie movement. Used to be that indie, at least over here in the UK, was a distinct and alternative sound (ironic perhaps given the source of the name has no link to actual musical style) but in the past couple of years I have heard people describing stuff like the Kaiser Chiefs as indie. Now everyone is an indie kid or a punk with their retro chic stripes or self torn pair of jeans and expensive leather jacket. Whether bands and their labels commit this genre theft in pure innocence or as an attempt to siphon off some of the ‘cool’ (read: impressionable youth attraction powers) from the genre I don’t know; all I want to know is where this madness is going to end!?

Also- am I right in thinking that the late 70's/80s bands were doing unheard of things with synths, tape loops and so on?

One of my friends is the front man of an emo (post post punk/whatever [let me point out that I was dead against his foray into emo, but hey]) band, he is pretty good and certainly plays around with new sounds (course these days that’s more often about messing around on a computer in his bedroom for days on end, and less about finding new uses for old equipment). Experimentation is always going to be there, but usually beneath the surface, hidden by all those attention snatching pop acts who proclaim themselves (or get proclaimed) as the alternative scene. I wonder if they realize that their profit making may well cause a Newspeak like stagnation and regression of alt music? I hope they do, and I hope it makes them weep at night. Indy has a similar problem, but beneath the surface we are doing nicely; The Microphones for example (now named Mount Eerie) play around a lot with strange sounds in long tracks (simple sounds true, but done in beautiful ways) and you should check them out.

The reason why I wrote all this is because I'd like to get into a nice discussion of the future of punk-pop music and its merits.

The future of post-pop? A slow borg-like assimilation of all the alternative scenes, by recruiting all the youth of the world to a stagnant sound (ok, that’s a little pessimistic but I’m sure you get the idea).
 
 
Jack Denfeld
16:26 / 20.05.06
First, thinking about the dub/world/reggae influence (appropriation?) of the late 70s/80s stuff, do we still see this today?
Rancid's 'Life Won't Wait' had some of this, and they've backed up a couple of reggae guys on some singles. Of course one of their biggest criticisms is that they try to emulate the Clash too much, which might be where the reggae stuff comes from.

I like them, but I'm a bit of a goofball, and their bassist is awesome.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
16:29 / 20.05.06
Oh, and speaking of all this pop punk Greenday Offspring stuff, most of those kids from the metalcore/emo/hardcore scene seemed to dislike it a lot, even the older punk stuff. Whenever they asked if I was at a show and I said no they'd say something like "Oh yeah, you were probably at home listening to Exploited albums".
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
19:56 / 20.05.06
I'm curious as to where late-70's early-80's SoCal bands (I'm thinking specifically of Agent Orange) fit into people's punk cosmologies. They were clearly the progenitors of bands like Green Day and the Offspring, but were at least ten years earlier.

I'm another who has quite a fondness for the Offspring. They weren't considered "true" punk when I was a teenager, but I could give a fuck, because they made great, fast, poppy songs that were excellent to listen to riding around with your buddies during Summer vacation. I love the singer's vocal stylings to this day. In fact, I may go root around the used CD bins at my local record store. I haven't listened to those guys for probably ten years.

Copey's Brick- I also had to Google emo a year or two ago, and I'm still not sure what it actually sounds like, as I don't listen to the radio, and my CD player is a revolving door of Tom Waits, Morrissey and the Wu-Tang at the moment. Something tells me I wouldn't enjoy it, though from people's posts here.

Jake, lately I seem to be popping into threads right after you and you have just said what I was going to say. Maybe it's a New Englander thing.

Great minds think alike, clearly.
 
 
werwolf
09:43 / 22.05.06
something that has really intrigued me about the history of 'punk' (as a musical genre) is how it simultanously developed into so many different aspects of itself at the same time in the u.s., u.k. and on continental europe.

just yesterday i was listening to CAPTAIN SENSIBLE's "this is your captain speaking" 7" (it was released 1981, but it reminded me of THE DAMNED) and M.D.C.'s "millions of dead christians" and was thinking about the different progressions. THE STOOGES, VELVET UNDERGROUND, THE RAMONES, DEAD KENNEDYS or THE DAMNED, SEX PISTOLS, THE CLASH, CRASS. another thing that i have always felt was different about the way punk developed in europe was that imo european punk bands had (and perhaps still have) a strong affinity towards experimental and harmonic musical styles, partly being a reactionary development to prog rock and coming out of pop-rich environment, while in the states it seemed to me that they kept wrestling with their rock heritage and never even thought much about other things. i don't think a band like CITIZEN FISH could've grown out of the american influences, while MISFITS surely would not have worked like that coming from europe.
[on a side note: i wouldn't put THROBBING GRISTLE in this category at all. their aim was, i think, totally different than what punk music tried to achieve. while punk seemed to be about the blandness and troubles of modern existence, it spoke of (in its hippie-esque ways) an alternative view and a solution. THROBBING GRISTLE and their industrial music were aiming to destroy and not rebuild or offer alternatives.]

having said all of that i'd like to point out that these pop-punk-whatever-you-wanna-call-em-bands take their roots a.) not only in punk and b.) in very recent developments in punk music.

add a.): most of them have very strong metal and alternative rock influences. this should not be underestimated. comparing the youth culture that has developed around these different kinds of musical styles you will see strongly diverging fundamental views and sets of principles. of course, this will reflect in how these bands interpret their music and how they deliver their message.

add b.): i think it is not a very good idea to compare current trends in music to what has happend 3, 4 or even more generations before. of course, it's good to know the history and be able to retrace where something is coming from, but it is simply misleading to compare, say, THRICE with VELVET UNDERGROUND. it is probably more helpful to look 1 or 2 generations into the history of bands like THRICE, looking at FUGAZI, BLACK FLAG, ALL, KID DYNAMTIE, AVAIL, LIFETIME, EMBRACE (the ian mackaye band, not the current band of the same name) and (as has been mentioned) RITES OF SPRING and so forth.

and when i make this comparison, the first thing that i always see is how the lyrical content shifted into a somewhat brechtian (without any irony) cum e.a. poe world of woe, sorrow and self pity. i'm generalizing, obviously, but you catch my drift, i hope.
 
 
coweatman
06:57 / 26.05.06
none of the bands listed in the first post are "screamo".

try

mohinder
saetia
honeywell
portraits of past
orchid
jeromes dream
moss icon
swing kids
khayambi communique
indian summer
 
 
matthew.
14:08 / 26.05.06
Thanks, I'll look into some of those. Any particular band that's better? One that I should start with?


Also, in my second sentence, I wrote:
some would classify as emo, or screamo
And, as you can see, this whole thread is having problems with genre classification.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
00:28 / 27.05.06
This one's going to be a bit of a rambler, but

the problem is the pop-artists themselves...

Is it? But wasn't punk supposed to be properly pop again?

I'm just having a bit of trouble with this idea of having a mohawk and tattoos or whatnot Because It Is A Serious Statement thing...surely that neglects that part of the point of doing it is because it's, at some level, cool and fun?

And all this talk of a "stagnating alt music scene"- surely the best way to make your scene stagnant is to put up a big sign saying This Is Alternative Not Nasty Pop Go Away?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
00:30 / 27.05.06
Now everyone is an indie kid or a punk with their retro chic stripes or self torn pair of jeans and expensive leather jacket. Whether bands and their labels commit this genre theft in pure innocence or as an attempt to siphon off some of the ‘cool’ (read: impressionable youth attraction powers) from the genre I don’t know; all I want to know is where this madness is going to end!?

Yes, where indeed?1!!?
 
 
one point, oh
09:00 / 27.05.06
For the most part, Legba, I was being sarcastic (about the stagnation thing), and if not sarcastic at the very least theatrically overblown. I regretted posting about 3 mins after; it was done for all the wrong reasons. The night before I had gone to a 'ska' night expecting to throw out some craaazy moves; ended up being some cheap greenday-with-a-trumpet night. 13 year old kids dressed up all, y'know, wrong (that was some kind of joke again, I can't help myself). Embittered and feeling like music was already overtaking me I retreated to barbelith to whine about how the youth of today don't match up with my own, still pretty youthful, view of music. It was posted tongue firmly in cheek, but I admit fairly invisibly.

There is a part of me that misses the feeling I used to get when I was into punk though; the ‘Statement’, the gratuitous swearing and the moshpits where a man was likely to lose ... well, lose everything. It feels gone but that’s probably more me than the music. And hell; ‘scenesters’ have always upset me, probably mostly due to social exclusion rather than any decent reason. You are right though; I do often miss out on the fun of pop. I can see that it is fun, I want to feel its fun coursing through beat bopping veins and I can, when drunk enough, do so. I blame peer pressure; my group of grump loving friends has instilled a deep seated fear of fun in me that isn’t going to be broken for a while. So again; apologies, I know there are decent bands of this ilk out there as my younger, skateboard wielding brother often reminds me, I guess it’s just not me.
 
  

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