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Why dont you all like 'policy and help'?

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00:48 / 05.05.06

mister disco said something that made me think.

ze said I've been taking part in so many policy discussions that I feel like a mod*, and i wondered if that was a reflection of how some of you other folks feel.

do you feel you have to be a mod to discuss policy issues?
does the idea of an argument with one of the big namers freak you out?
do you feel it is only functional; somewhere you go in extreme situations, like a police station?
or do you just have no interest whatsoever in that kind of political soap opera?

i wonder why it isnt more populated generally, and am always surprised when, as with the shadowsax case, folks are unaware of a discussion continuing on apace that may well affect the shape and operation of the board.

i wonder, and so i ask;
if you dont read policy and help, why not?
what would make a difference to how you feel about it?

i would like to hear from those who do post there, but not as much as those who dont.

policy and help forum; bastion of barbelith's brilliance.

(*apologies to mister disco; i realise that my quote is out of context and may not reflect your opinion in the manner i suggest. i simply used your words because they inspired this post.)

03:03 / 05.05.06

Sometimes it feels like the politics forum.

05:47 / 05.05.06

I used to read and comment in it, but with the current board-wide atmosphere I avoid it. I'm burnt out with the whole scene so I stick to the "fluffier" fora. I might go back after things die down a bit.

06:03 / 05.05.06

At the end of the day there are people smarter and more eloquent than I to discuss most of the major issues that come up on the board. I've only commented on issues I feel strongly about, like the misogosphere on the Lost US thread or our friend Sensitive Robot.

06:22 / 05.05.06

I read it all the time but don't get to post much these days (to anywhere, to be honest) and the discussions have usually reached three million pages and everything's been said by the time I get there.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

07:12 / 05.05.06

I've been spending more time in there lately starting with the whole SS business and I'm sure my interest in that forum will dwindle to previous levels. I dunno, it's not often I feel the need to put in my two cents regarding board policy. I like to think I can trust everyone else to take care of things like that.

So y'know, you guys handle the messy policy stuff and I'll take care of the Robert Goulet pics.

Doctor Strange is always here for us, people. Let him into your heart and accept him as your friend and savior.

07:20 / 05.05.06

Tuna, please see the Civil War thread in comics where I talk about how Strange is being a dick.

07:49 / 05.05.06

would you guys say that 'reading but not feeling the need to post' describes a common approach, then?

it's hard to know if folks have read something if they dont post, but i do appreciate that it isnt proof they havent if they dont.

08:44 / 05.05.06

I read the Policy forum fairly regularly, but rarely post on it, for a number of reasons. As others have noted, that forum is where most of the seriously hardcore posters will discuss important things in high-falutin' terms and with very little patience for a dosser like myself. Not that this is a bad thing mind, as it's a working-forum, stuff happens there that effects the rest of the board, and I'm quite happy to let it tick over without my poorly thought-out asides breaking the flow.

Also, another reason I don't post there is becasue I don't really care all that much about what's being discussed. To be honest, none of the discussions about SS or Sensitive Rapper interested or concerned me, and there was no way I was going to read pages and pages of futile arguement. That's for the people who are properly emotionally invested in this place, the people that do get geniunely offended when someone displays unnacceptable behaviour. Other recent threads, like the woman-friendly barbelith discussions, I found really interesting, but found posting in them to be more hassle than it was worth, with the disagreements about the validity of the 'male-response' thread seemingly more important than whatever point I was trying to make. Of course, when that thread gets used by a 'regular', nobody bats an eyelid. So, I stay away. (btw, this last point is not meant as a 'woe is me, no-one takes me seriously' point, I was just sayin')

08:53 / 05.05.06

Policy is just a bunch of Illuminati Barbeloids battling the other Barberoyals over how they're gonna control the rest of us anyways. They are PC gone mad, and wouldn't be able to identify a live tiger if it bit them on their bottoms. Plus Barbelith is dying. And fighting dogs. While kicking pregnant people out of their bus seats, with Robbie Williams music playing in the background.

08:56 / 05.05.06

Of course, when that thread gets used by a 'regular', nobody bats an eyelid.

If you're talking about the Woman-Friendly thread, I can assure you there was much (reasonable) batting of eyelids when I got carried away and posted there. And I'm regular as All-Bran.

08:59 / 05.05.06

i understand your lack of care(well, perhaps understand is the wrong word... i recognise it and can see how it occurs), and i appreciate your sharing that with us.

when you say you feel folks would have very little patience for a dosser like myself, i would like to disagree.
i personally think of the policy as being necessarily inclusive.
if it wasnt, i wouldnt like it, or barbelith, as much.

folk have never told me not to post in the policy, for example.
i was as much an idiot as anyone here now, and no one suggested that my right to post on board issues should be curtailed.
well, a couple i suppose, but they were talking about the whol board rather than policy.

you dont have to post, of course, but i would consider it a shame if you felt you shouldn't post.

09:06 / 05.05.06

I imagine it just bores people really. There's mostly fix this post type stuff, what do you think of this forum, should we have this kind of forum, should we rename the descriptions of this forum. I wanna come to Barbelith to have fun, learn something, read people's opinions on different things. Policy is mostly just janitor work, essential, but not very glamorous.

When it's something that seems more important than fixing a link I see a lot of people going there that normally don't, myself included. Threads on what grounds for banning should be, threads where we discuss people who are disruptive to the board, threads like the woman friendly thread.

09:11 / 05.05.06

I find Policy one of the most interesting forums, actually. All the drama does get on the nerves after a while, though.

10:01 / 05.05.06

Sometimes it feels like the politics forum.

Well that’s pretty spot on. I think of it as the Barbelith town hall, and it’s where (local) politics happens.
Lots of it is quite boring and administrational, but then lots of politics is. But it’s also the place where some of the most interesting conversations happen (IMO), and its inclusivity is fundamental to that. One thing that everyone here has in common is that they’re members of Barbelith, and one would assume has some interest in how the community works.

Unlike some other forums, being a user of Barbelith is the best and only qualification you need to get involved. In that sense I really don’t see it as being highfalutin or the domain of teh Barberoyalty or any kind of political class. It’s pretty accessible I reckon, and if there’s a general lack of interest in it (which I can’t honestly say I recognise strongly) then I’m at a bit of a loss to understand it. Occasional tumults aside, it’s reasonably easy to keep abreast of what’s going on there, and it’s where Barbelith is talked about. We’re all at least a little bit interested in Barbelith, aren’t we?

10:20 / 05.05.06

i dunno...
i'm very interested in design, but i dont post in AFD.
i dont even read it all that often.
likewise lab and comics.
i love me some science and funnypapers, but i dont have time in my barbelith day for all of it.

i imagine you dont read all of the board all of the time either.
am i wrong?

10:30 / 05.05.06

No, you’re not.

I suppose what I meant was that *if* very few post to the Policy frequently (which, to be honest, I don’t really accept), then it’s strange given that it covers a subject *everyone* here has some interest in. Unlike magic, TV, comics, whatever; the forums devoted to which apparently not suffering so much from a dearth of contributors.

10:40 / 05.05.06

Genesh - I found that posting on the Male Response thread got a few more comments than when I posted on the 'women only' thread (following your example, ha!). When I posted to the male response thread, I was told pretty quickly that the thread was unnecessary, and that we shouldn't be using it. I felt at the time (and still do now, reading back on it) that Haus' arguement was mistaken, and that the thread was necessary, but I honestly don't have the time, energy or interest to argue it out properly. I fully accept that there is no way I can win that fight. Haus knows words and theories and all kinds of gubbins I don't, I wasn't going to win, even though I felt my point was valid.

Again, I'm not trying to be all 'woe is me' here, and I'm not really interested in 'finishing' the arguement as it was. I'm just giving one of the reasons why I don't like posting in the policy. It's a bit serious, and I'm a bit flippant.

BTW, I don't want to give the impression in these posts that I don't care about Barbelith as a whole, because I really do. But, like everyone else, I have to balance my time between work and play, fleshy people and words on a screen. This means, unfortumately, that some complex and demanding arguements get left alone, because I don't have the time, resources (and sometimes the brains or sensitivity) to reply to them in a satisfactory manner.

And, as an aside, nothing is more scary on Barbelth than checking the policy and finding you're the subject of a big thread. That place gives me terror flashbacks!

10:47 / 05.05.06

see, that's why i check it all the time.
just in case i'm being banned.

any day now...

10:52 / 05.05.06

i get what you mean, mr weaving.
do you feel that folks should read it more, then?

11:02 / 05.05.06

I quite like it on the policy forum. It's where I went to find out what Barbelith is really about and on the strength of the way people address each other there, I decided that here seems a good place.
Probably, this is because I am of the opinion that boundaries rock! Talk about what behaviour is considered appropriate/not, is sometimes taboo in collaborative or 'alternative-identifying' groups but far from oppressing, I reckon that clear limits can actually free a community to exist happily and creatively.
I appreciate places where such processes are acknowledged and given a place and I really, really enjoy decision-making when it's participatory and discursive.
And I haven't posted because I'm new and it's taking me a while to find a voice here/I'm feeling self-conscious, rather than out of a particular reluctance to tangle with more established lithers.

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:07 / 05.05.06

You have to sleep some time, toksik.

John - oddly enough, I think that argument was won by circumstance. As the role of the Barbelith Woman-Friendly thread altered, the necessity of a gender-neutral thread became clearer. The change of title away from "male response" to "commentary and analysis" was intended to reflect that.

11:12 / 05.05.06

do you feel that folks should read it more, then?

Not really, toksik. For a start I don’t recognise it as being the ghost-town you seem to be characterising it as. I suppose it would be quite interesting to know, is there anyone here who never reads nor posts to threads in the Policy?
But also, I kinda think that if you’re *not* interested in the Policy, it’s probably better that you keep out of the discussions there. Much as I probably shouldn’t post in Comics, given that I don’t read them and don’t have much of an interest in them.

I’m with whistler though, the Policy forum was one of the things that most impressed me about Barbelith when I first came here.

11:21 / 05.05.06

oh, i dont see it as a ghost town.
i was going to clarify that, but i got distracted.

i think that there are only a few who are always there, rather than only ever a few there.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

11:27 / 05.05.06

I love the Policy- apart from being important to the running of the place, and yes, somewhere EVERYONE can have a say (if less "well-known" posters are intimidated by it, that's a shame and something we should probably work on), it's the place where all the stuff that fascinates me about Barbelith as a whole actually happens- it's like a massively multiplayer Sim City. It's like the whole "community as organism" thing unfolding right around you, and you can join in.

11:27 / 05.05.06

Do you think there are fewer people ‘always’ in the Policy, than always in any other forum?

To be honest, few people in permanent residence but a steady stream of passing traffic sounds pretty much as it should be.

11:31 / 05.05.06

sure, unless that steady stream of traffic is only one guy going round and round the block.

i guess we disagree on just how popular it is.

12:09 / 05.05.06

I'm one of the frequent readers but rarer posters in Policy. I like it a lot and often find it interesting, but I only post when I feel pretty sure I have something worthwhile to contribute (and even then I'm wrong sometimes - of course). I don't think that differs much from the way I post to any other forum (that I read) other than Conversation (where I post more readily). I've always had the impression that Policy usually has enough active voices without needing a lot of "me toos" as filler, so I try not to post anything to that effect.

12:29 / 05.05.06

i guess we disagree on just how popular it is.

I think so, although other people have expressed the same concern you are, so I accept I might be in the minority here.

So let’s have a glance at the numbers.

The 30 threads on the front page were started by 22 different people.

Take a random thread (why not Policy Miscellany?) and there’s 28 posters over 95 posts. So that’s a different poster every 3 posts.

The thread at the bottom of the front page was last posted to just 4 weeks ago (that's almost twice the turn-over rate of the Lab).

Dunno, obviously there’s no absolute standard for popularity, but those numbers look pretty healthy to me, particularly when you factor in ibis’s point.

12:38 / 05.05.06

I've always had the impression that Policy usually has enough active voices without needing a lot of "me toos" as filler, so I try not to post anything to that effect.

That's my sentiment too. If I don't have a view contrary to what's already been expressed, there isn't really a need for me to +1.
Although, sometimes the dialogue is already so established in Policy that even if I do want to plus one I'm not sure what the point of me contributing would be.

12:39 / 05.05.06

I do post there on occassion, however, and read it quite a bit. Less so than the forums I moderate and convo but more so than the rest. It is constantly interesting if a bit energy sapping at times.

14:32 / 05.05.06

I enjoy reading the Policy and Help forum but don't feel I'll post on it much, at least for the next few months. I reckon I've got to get a feel for what this place is before i really go about messing with the machinery.

It's also a place for well-thought-out and politicised posts which generally take a while to formulate and require stronger opinions than i generally have (at the moment) on most issues. As a noob, I don't have as much invested in Barbelith as others so feel less inclined to post. That said, I have posted their, and my read

ost ratio for P&H is probably the same for a lot of other fora.

I'm definitely interested in it, but it's just a bit.. um...

Well, Policy and Help is like Wagner's Ring Cycle to Conversation's Neighbours, isn't it?

And I'm still working on my acting technique :-)

14:39 / 05.05.06

that smiley isn't mean to be there. It was meant to be "read : post" without the spacing.
Ho Hum..

Disco is My Class War

14:51 / 05.05.06

I fully accept that there is no way I can win that fight. Haus knows words and theories and all kinds of gubbins I don't, I wasn't going to win, even though I felt my point was valid.

John -- I find it interesting that you consider issues like these to be about winning or losing an argument. Surely it's not just about figuring out who's right and who's wrong?

By the way, I said I feel like a mod because I've recently experienced something of a renaissance in my interest in Barbelith as a community, as well as the structure of its sociality and politics. This reflowering of interest might be because I'm a bit of a process geek anyhow, and my energies as process geek were involved in other things for a couple of years there. I'm also an ex moderator, and definitely became uninterested at some point a couple of years ago. Times change, Barbelith regenerates, my pastimes change. Sometimes I need distraction and get drawn into the drama, either reading or posting.

Haven't far more people been posting to the Policy lately than before?

15:03 / 05.05.06

Well, Policy and Help is like Wagner's Ring Cycle to Conversation's Neighbours, isn't it?

Heh heh. I'll be Gunther if Haus will be Brunhilde.

I like it--for all the reasons Stoat outlined. I'd wager it does move faster than Books, Headshop (which has been in a dreary state much of the past few months, sigh), Lab, or ADF. That's my impression anyway. But all the boards go through a kind of ebb and flow, with the exception of Conversation which typically gurgles along like a drooling, if sometimes colicky, baby. (Just to be clear: I like the conversation, and I like babies!)

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