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Homo 101

 
  

Page: 12(3)456

 
 
penitentvandal
07:44 / 03.05.06
Deva - I don't think you actually have to read the Mail at any point to be a Mail-reader. Your woman on the train is just in reaction-formation: she's incredibly prejudiced but aha, you see! She reads the Guardian. So she can't be prejudiced at all, do you see?

I work in a bookshop at the mo' and we're doing a promotion for a new e-newsletter we're doing. I've noticed that Mail-readers never give you their email address. And do you know why? Because they know what you're going to do with it! You'll give it to all the asylum-seekers and use it to groom their kids for your terrible paedophile rituals and you'll send them spam! GAY spam! No thank you! No thank you indeed sir! Why oh why oh WHY what is this country coming to...

I made up a song about them, but to do that would be to go terribly off-topic, so I won't.

I think one analogy for heterocentrism would be the plight of the disabled (and no, I'm NOT saying gay people are disabled), in that maybe the assumption that people are able-bodied is generally a safe bet statistically, but as soon as someone who isn't able-bodied brushes up against it it becomes a huge problem. But I think that has already come up a bit here.

Sex science! The last-but-one issue of my current fave magazine, Scientific American: Mind had an interesting article on sexuality in its last issue. It came out as something of a double-edged sword - going contrary to Kinsey, it actually put the figure of actual gays in the population at lower than 5% (but see Mister Disco's points re. whether people tell the truth in surveys), and went, somewhat, against the argument that gayness stems entirely from genetics. This was partly in response to cases of people who've been 'cured' of the gay by various outreach programs: now, I like to sneer at those as much as the next guy but the authors found that in some cases they do seem to work (but see: not making massive judgements about an issue until proper longtitudinal data are in). Like most things, then, it seems the gayness is part genetic and part social, and social factors may be more important. The authors developed a new scale, ranging from people who were totaly hardwired gays to people who were mainly gay to bis to total straightlords, and argued that people on the hardcore gay end could never be 'cured' because they were both genetically gay and had developed socially to be gay. People who were mainly gay with some het tendencies could be 'cured' or rather led to follow only their heterosexual tendencies with the right encouragement etc. Of course, those of you who, like me, like to follow an argument to its more amusing conclusions will have figured out that this also means that mainly straight people can also potentially be 'cured' of their sexual orientation, which may give hope to that Tasmanian Devil of the modern era, the proselytising homosexual...

The argument in the end was that being gay is kind of like being left-handed (AGAIN: I'm not saying all left-handed people are gay or that all gays are left-handed, or indeed that Ned Flanders is gay or that my client has been near any such road of any sort), in that handedness appears to be at least as much a result of socialisation as genetics: left-handed people can and do have right-handed kids, because in our dexteronormative society right-handedness is an advantage. Of course, this means that in theory if you make it easier for left-handers to get by then you might increase the percentage of lefties in the population, and that similarly making it easier for gays to get by might increase the percentage of gays about. Obviously that's not a perfect analogy - most left-handed people don't lie about what hand they use to avoid being given evils, and obviously I'm not saying Flanders is making it easier for people to be gay, but...it is quite an interesting article...

...ruined only by the fact that some sub-editor has clearly knocked together a terrible 'Are YOU a gayer?' questionnaire to add onto it during his lunch break, on which I scored as being 'homosexual with possible heterosexual tendencies', but then I would do as the whole questionnaire had only one, count it, one question referring to levels of attraction to the opposite sex. A promiscuous bisexual and even a straight guy who'd once gone all the way with one of the guys from the track team would score the same as I did. Irritating.

On the subject of gay authors, I note that, IIRC, Mark Gattis' biog in the print edition of The Vesuvius Club mentions him living with his partner, but the biog in the new graphic novel edition doesn't. Are they saying comic boys won't buy it if they think it's written by one of the gayers? And, um, isn't that a bit stupid given, er, one of the key plot points in TVC?
 
 
ibis the being
09:48 / 03.05.06
handedness appears to be at least as much a result of socialisation as genetics: left-handed people can and do have right-handed kids, because in our dexteronormative society right-handedness is an advantage.

Wait, what? I don't want to drag us off-topic but is this true? Blue-eyed people can have brown-eyed kids. Little people can have regular-height kids. Why couldn't left-handed people have right-handed kids, or heterosexuals have homosexual kids?
 
 
petunia
10:51 / 03.05.06
What are the links, if any, between genetics and sexual orientation?
Is there any scientific proof that one is 'born gay' (or 'born straight' for that matter)?
Does it matter?

I'm somewhat suspicious of the aims of people trying to 'pin down' sexual preference to a gene sequence, as it reminds me somewhat of the practices of certain bad, bad people who tried to use genetics as a excuse for all kinds of idiot bigotry. It seems that in the wrong hands, knowledge of a 'gay gene' could lead to attempts to alter or 'neutralise' those who hold it.

But on the other side, i can see knowledge of a 'sex gene' as an empowering thing. If we are disposed by our genetics towards a certain sexual preference, then we have a greater 'tool' available to us in the demoralisation of sexuality. If 'i am what i am', then arguments agaisnt non-normative sexuality become just as void as those against non-normative skin colour. If sexuality remains a choice, then the argument can always be made that one has made the wrong choice and that one should change one's mind or else be a Bad Person.

Obviously, even if sexuality is a choice, there seems to be no valid argument for/against any sexuality over another (assuming, of course, issues of consent, which remain irrelevent of gender.) But choice is always a less convincing argument than necessity.

I'm unsure about the whole thing. I like the empowerment of choice. I like that i can say 'i am who i am and have brought myself here'. But i also think it's a little strange to imagine that we just 'have desire and point it where we choose'; it doesn't seem that feasible. Obviously, i can choose to act agaisnt my genetic makeup (and a lot of people seem to do so) but it makes life a lot harder. So maybe a combination of the empowerment of hardwiring and that of choice?

Oh i don't know...

But anyways. Is there any scientific proof? I know there has been research, but have people actually found anything? What do others feel on this issue?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:09 / 03.05.06
Well, personally I feel that in the long term biological determinism/essentialism (however tempting as a defence in the short term) is always going to be a dead-end and has more potential for reactionary ways of thinking than progressive ones.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:12 / 03.05.06
The Queer by Choice thread.

Velvetvandal On the subject of gay authors, I note that, IIRC, Mark Gattis' biog in the print edition of The Vesuvius Club mentions him living with his partner, but the biog in the new graphic novel edition doesn't. Are they saying comic boys won't buy it if they think it's written by one of the gayers?

Maybe they split up? Maybe between one and the other Gatiss came to a decision that he didn't want any information of that kind in his blurb. Alternatively, it may be different companies different guidelines for what they write up in blurb.
 
 
Ganesh
11:18 / 03.05.06
But anyways. Is there any scientific proof? I know there has been research, but have people actually found anything?

Yes, although, predictably, it's all fairly limited. Worth checking Simon LeVay's work in this field.

Personally, I think that, even though any finding which can be interpreted as even vaguely deterministic is seized upon by a variety of interested agencies, the research itself is worthwhile. I don't think anyone's seriously under any illusion that the totality of homosexuality as a phenomenon can be adequately 'explained' by a single biological factor. It's highly likely that homosexuality is a heterogeneous (ho ho) entity, and individuals arrive at homosexuality (and/or a homosexual identification) via a number of routes, with varying degrees of biological, developmental and situational loading. I like to think the researchers themselves understand this, even if the agenda-pushers don't.
 
 
matthew.
12:23 / 03.05.06
Papers: what exactly are "gay themes?"

I must confess that I wrote "issues" then deleted that and wrote "themes". I could not decide what a proper word for it would be.

A gay theme could anything that has appeared in this thread and dealt with in fiction. For example, homophobia in its many guises, or institutional heterocentrism, or even, metafiction about gay authors trying not to be published in the gay section of the megachain because it's a smaller market.

Stoatie: whether the reason Sacrament (imho CB's best novel) is largely underrated is that it has a gay lead character

I'm of the opposite mind, really. I thought Sacrament was one of his worst novels. Just so boring really; nothing to do with the main character. I thought Imajica was far superior and deals with... transgendered individuals (Pie) if that's the word there.
 
 
Chiropteran
13:02 / 03.05.06
(I thought Imajica was far superior and deals with... transgendered individuals (Pie) if that's the word there.

I think "pangendered" might be more apt in Pie's case, or maybe something with a "meta-" in it.)
 
 
Cat Chant
13:16 / 03.05.06
Hey, I just thought of another possibly useful way to think about heterocentrism. It's about the amount of work that you're (hypothetical heterocentric interlocutor, rather than Lurid himself) asking me to do, vs the amount of work that you're refusing to do. In the current cultural state of things, asking me about my 'boyfriend' means that you are requiring me to do a fair bit of emotional/cognitive work in sizing up the situation, deciding what to say to you, managing your reaction, possibly having to calm myself down afterwards and/or otherwise cope with the consequences if it goes badly.* Even if it doesn't go badly, you may well also be asking me to do a lot of the work of smoothing over the ordinary social awkwardness of the situation. If all you have to do is say 'partner' instead of 'boyfriend', but you don't because that seems like too much work, then that's sort of where heterocentrism shades into homophobia, in that it's making an implicit judgement that gay people should have to do more work than straight people in managing these sorts of interactions.

That's a slightly simplistic example, but I think the idea of 'how much work' might be quite useful (it has been to me in other contexts, eg thinking about my use of potentially racist and/or disablist words [eg stopping saying lame, rather reluctantly I admit, on the grounds that my right to use it is not more important than other people's right not to hear it]).

*This happened recently with someone who started talking to me on the Tube:

Me: no, that's not a picture of my boyfriend, I'm not straight, that's why I'm sat here with my arm round my girlfriend right in front of you

Man: runs away

And it took me a while - half an hour or so - to get my heart rate/adrenaline back to normal. I'll freely admit that I'm a conflict-averse wuss, but I still think I'm onto something here...
 
 
Queer Pirate
01:19 / 04.05.06
Deva: I think you’re doing a great job at explaining why heterocentrism matters!

Velvet: Please don’t feel the need to put a triple disclaimer with half of your examples; this is a low-snark thread. However, in a higher-snark thread, disclaiming would get annoying after a while and you would probably be asked to make an effort on choosing better examples. Please don’t take that last sentence as snark; I’m just trying to point out that disclaimers are sometimes a sloppy attempt at downplaying the impact of a less-than-excellent choice of words.

Lurid:

On a basic level, I’m quite all right with trying to find out more about human behavior when it comes to sexuality – we all benefit from knowing more about the world we live in. Personally, I think the results would be that the world is more queerer than we think.

However, on a methodological level, there are a few pitfalls that need to be taken into account.

1. What is sexual orientation? How do you measure it? Only through observable behavior? Do you include fantasies? Who is gay? Who is bisexual? Who is heterosexual? What about the straight guy whom sixty-nines with his best mate every once in a while? Or that lesbian girl I know who has her stuff quite together but candidly admits that a penis feels quite good where it goes, even if she definitely wants a girl in her life? What about the people who are still questioning? Or people who see sexual orientation as a fluid and ever-evolving aspect of their life? Any serious research needs to come up with a clearly defined model that accounts for all this stuff, as these matters have already been a significant source of controversy and debate in the science community.

2. You also have to take hidden numbers into account. Homosexuality is a huge taboo for many people and a lot of them are not likely to admit to having homosexual experiences or fantasies – especially if they have a hard time admitting that to themselves or if they don’t have the self-knowledge to accurately assess their sexual orientation. Thus it’s important to understand that any research will come up with lower rates of non-heterosexuality than what is reality, just like any research related to social taboos, such as research on self-admitted criminal acts or on sexual abuse victims.

3. Researcher bias is also important. Any research about homosexuality is a potential political minefield and a lot of researchers would approach the subject with a political bias, either pro-queer or heterosexist.

4. Include any other dubious methodological pitfalls you can think of, which most certainly abound with any research.

Also, it is important to understand that every research about homosexuality, whether it is about the number of queers out there or the causes of sexual orientation, will be recuperated for political purposes, whether it is methodologically viable or not. There’s potential for a lot of good as well as a lot of harm there. Rest assured that a lot of bigots out there have “scientific facts” to back their claims.

Finally, one cannot neglect the possibility that science might one day find efficient ways of altering sexual orientation. What happens then?
 
 
*
01:42 / 04.05.06
Re: 1) above. There are also people oriented to specific kinds of sexual acts, not so much gender or genitals of their partners. Is that sexual orientation?
 
 
Ganesh
10:45 / 04.05.06
There are also people oriented to specific kinds of sexual acts, not so much gender or genitals of their partners. Is that sexual orientation?

Or situations, or objects. I suppose I tend to think of sexuality in terms of an individual 'thumbprint' - with specific kinks, whorls, loops, all interrelated and interacting - so that whether or not one is turned on (even "turned on" being up for grabs, conceptually) depends on partner (if appropriate), situation, dynamic, internal mood/climate, clothing, etc., etc.

All of which doesn't invalidate research into particular dimensions of sexual 'thumbprints' (eg. homo/heterosexuality, exhibitionism/voyeurism, fetishism, etc.) so long as we remember they are strands within a greater whole.
 
 
alas
14:30 / 04.05.06
All of which doesn't invalidate research into particular dimensions of sexual 'thumbprints' (eg. homo/heterosexuality, exhibitionism/voyeurism, fetishism, etc.) so long as we remember they are strands within a greater whole.

Well put, Ganesh--the thumbprint works pretty well for me, although actually I think I want to frame that even further. I think of the differing ways that Traditional Chinese Medicine conceives of and maps the body vs. the typical anatomical drawings and cross-sections that Western medicine relies on.

These are two radically different ways of understanding the body and they result in radically different modes of care. One does not have to view the one as "delegitimizing" the other, but it should make us see that all truth claims are deeply the result of perspective.

Likewise, unlike an actual ink printing of a physical thumb (which might be read, for all I know, very differently by a Chinese doctor as opposed to the police department), "heterosexuality" and "homosexuality" are terms that arose within a given cultural context, have changed meaning significantly over time. (E.g., "heterosexual" was, IIRC, a term for the "disorder" of being attracted to males and females (or closer to bisexual) when it was first coined.)

Yet the assumption often seems to be that they are terms that arose in order to describe a pre-existing but unnamed reality--as if they have a thumbprint relation to reality. There is considerable evidence that the words helped create and shape that reality--they may have helped make certain things "visible" but at the same time, they inevitably create distortions, carry the weight of history and politics (in this case), and also obscure other ways of seeing or mapping the territory.

For instance, by focusing so insistently on the gender of the persons to whom we may feel a sexual response (and even the term "sexual" is arguable in some circles), the terms almost imply that men who identify as "heterosexual" are attracted to ALL women. But they are almost inevitably not; often it's a very specific type of women or a few types of women. And then there's the matter of all the other things in your list which create their own inflections.

Results of scientific studies that may offer some insight into the complexity of human sexuality--particularly of isolated tests--should not be taken as offering an accurate vision of "Reality" in some diachronic, universal sense. But they often are so read, with little mention of the idea that the tests are grounded in a culturally-specific mode of understanding human sexuality and may not speak to some truth of "human nature."

While I think the media is often to blame for oversimplifying scientific studies and overstating the results as "proof" of X Y or Z, I also find that many scientists do seem to believe that terms like these can be used as if they simply name an a priori state, and that those of us on the humanities side of the divide are being needlessly obscurantist if we insist that the relation between language and reality is more complex than that.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:36 / 04.05.06
I have been reading and loving this thread.

1) above. There are also people oriented to specific kinds of sexual acts, not so much gender or genitals of their partners. Is that sexual orientation?

From a personal viewpoint, I would say so. Adding to what 'nesh says above, I'd say that gender and/or genital attraction as primary is one variant of sexual orientation. As 'nesh says, this doesn't invalidate work which examines people using a het/homo/bi/queer etc (I'm hesitant at including trans here precisely because as an identity, it precisely isn't only or mainly about factors of sexual attraction. Does that make sense?) classification.

To me, it's just important to note that when doing this work, one isn't using a universal/foundationary classification which overrides others.

To me, this also opens up the (to me, fascinating) point of identities and practices, where one person may identify as, say 'gay' because their desires/practices are (predominantly)homosexual and another may not, with very similar desires and practices.

On the 'do I belong here' qu, that toksik asked at the beginning, I'm very glad to see it asked, as if I'd had posting access when I first saw this thread, I'd've been asking it too.

The emergence of a 'bi community' is an interesting one, in that there's a great deal of variance regarding to what degree participants in it regard it as a discrete community, and to what degree it's seen as one of the communities to which they feel affiliation.

Ie, I'd like to think it was okay participating in this thread from my identities as queer *and* bi.

Another set of qus: what do people understand by the word 'queer' as an identity, practice etc. Do people like it? Does it belong here?
 
 
Mirror
15:36 / 04.05.06
This may be a post for a whole 'nother thread, but how important is sexual orientation insofar as it affects lifestyle, social groupings, etc. relative to other factors? Is one's sexuality a defining and/or controlling quality, or can it be incidental?

The most obvious answer is that it varies from person to person; it's just that sexuality seems to get a lot of attention as being a defining characteristic of an individual and I'm not sure that it really is in many cases. Does being homosexual entail that one's sexuality is an important defining characteristic in asymmetric proportion relative to being heterosexual?
 
 
*
15:43 / 04.05.06
Another set of qus: what do people understand by the word 'queer' as an identity, practice etc. Do people like it? Does it belong here?

I'm happy with the word "queer" at this point in history because it describes people, like myself, whose sexual practices and preferences are marginalized by virtue of not being considered "normal." However, I hope that in the future queerness will be considered one of many natural options for humans, and at that point the word will not be as appropriate.


(I'm hesitant at including trans here precisely because as an identity, it precisely isn't only or mainly about factors of sexual attraction. Does that make sense?)

Perfect sense. I am interested in exploring the interrelations between sexual orientations and gender identities, though. Teaching moment for Homo 101—Being gay, bi, or lesbian doesn't make you any closer to being transgender or transsexual necessarily, as transsexual or transgender men (FTM) are not an eXtr3m3! form of lesbian, nor are transsexual or transgender women (MTF) an eXtr3m3! form of gay man. On the other hand, there was something about my sexual orientation that demanded that I relate to other men sexually as a man, and this was one of the foremost factors pushing me to transition to male.

Should I save this for the Trans 101 thread, when we make one?
 
 
Ganesh
15:49 / 04.05.06
Does being homosexual entail that one's sexuality is an important defining characteristic in asymmetric proportion relative to being heterosexual?

I'd say so, yes, because, speaking generally, there's more work to be done in terms of establishing oneself as other than heterosexual. We've already touched on this in Deva's posts. I'd add that, in the case of homosexuality, the requirement that one explicitly correct the assumptions of others on a regular basis (or not correct them, and risk accusations of 'lying' at some later point) probably causes homosexuality to become an explicit characteristic in a way that heterosexuality isn't, and doesn't have to be. Those who identify as gay have generally done so after a period of conscious self-examination, and have had to a) 'process' their sexuality, and b) present it to others.

Put simply, there's no heterosexual equivalent to 'coming out'. This, in itself, would tend to make homosexuality more of a definer in terms of how one leads one's life.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:58 / 04.05.06
Ganesh: Put simply, there's no heterosexual equivalent to 'coming out'. This, in itself, would tend to make homosexuality more of a definer in terms of how one leads one's life.

"I'd rather be black than gay because when you're black you don't have to tell your mother." -- Charles Pierce
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:16 / 04.05.06
See, while that quote illustrates the point perfectly, I've found it problematical for a long while.

Mainly, because it functions by opposing one kind of non-normativity and how one exists within it against another.

Ie, no, you do not have to tell your mother that you are black, but then, if you are visibly black, you do not have the option, if needs be, to choose not to reveal that identity to people.
 
 
*
16:18 / 04.05.06
And of course black people never have to tell their mothers that they're gay.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:18 / 04.05.06
(FWIW, I felt that it was neccessary to go looking for images of Charles Pierce to see whether he was Caucasian or not. Which he appears to be. In the eg of the quote above, it seems to me that where he was speaking from is important.)
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:18 / 04.05.06
I always find it interesting/frustrating that the act of coming out is an admission ... a confession ... that stigmatizes the whole thing. It's not that you have to tell people, but it still has an edge of admitting you're bad...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:21 / 04.05.06
... aaaaand, Id entity has beaten me to the other point I wished to make.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:31 / 04.05.06
I am interested in exploring the interrelations between sexual orientations and gender identities, though.

Me too.

As, anecdotally, I can think of, merely in my own circle of acquaintance, two people who hold very different positions on this.

Person a sees their lesbian status/non-normative sexuality as 'no big deal compared to dealing with how people respond to my non-normative gender status'

Person b regards (their) transness as on an extreme, not of non-normative sexuality, but of non-normative gender performance, where heterosexuality is the norm, and non-het sexualities are on the scale of gender divergence by undermining normative notions of what for eg male-gendered people desire etc...

So, in my less-than-informed experience, there would seem to be massive variance as to on how people relate to these two locations.
 
 
penitentvandal
19:19 / 04.05.06
I’m just trying to point out that disclaimers are sometimes a sloppy attempt at downplaying the impact of a less-than-excellent choice of words.

They certainly are, but I was kind of pushed for time...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
00:08 / 05.05.06
I always find it interesting/frustrating that the act of coming out is an admission ... a confession ... that stigmatizes the whole thing. It's not that you have to tell people, but it still has an edge of admitting you're bad...

Yeah. This is something I think about too. I have thoughts on this, more when I'm less tired. Thoughts, basically, that stem from a deconstructing of the closet and how it structures the coming out narrative. (which I'm indebted body and soul to Eve Sedgwick for, if anyone wants to have at this. In the context of a 'homo 101' thread, this is soemthing I'd be really interested in discussing)

So: next question set: what is 'coming out'? how does it work? what is 'the closet'? how does that work?
 
 
Orange
01:23 / 05.05.06
Hey velvetvandal, Scientific American Mind recently became my new favorite magazine as well, and I just pulled it out to read that "Do Gays Have a Choice?" article again. I'm very fond of science and the idea of understanding the world better, but with a topic that is so susceptible to being affected by and diverted into politics, my approach was much more careful and critical than for most science articles I read. It read a little like it was trying to keep its balance in being perfectly objective, while I kind of poked at it with gloves and goggles on, with the neutral suspending-judgment sort of mindset that I had already pulled out for the "Combatting Stress in Iraq" article in the same issue. Science and politics together make me nervous.

As far as me actually having a point here, the article at one point described someone as being "formerly gay", which struck me as really strange and I'm not sure why. Maybe because it's taking into account the possible flexibility of sexuality over time, but not the spectrum between "(all) gay" and "(all) straight" at a given time that the rest of the article emphasizes? It also brings to mind the idea of "curing" homosexuality, with the "formerly gay" people to be congratulated for their achievement, which ties into worries about certain readings of the whole article. Thoughts?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
02:39 / 05.05.06
You know that idea of gay guys hanging round with girls that's often represented in movies and so on? What's that all about? Is that based on reality or are they trying to find a way in which homosexuals can be interpolated into heteronormativity?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
06:36 / 05.05.06
Well, it's a stereotype, so it happens but tends to balloon in media perception until IT IS THE ONLY WAY. I tend to hang out with a lot of women, but have solid male friendships as well.

I think what's heteronormative about the portrayals tends to be: why are they only ever shown as one gay man hanging around with a group of women exclusively? They're rarely shown in the company of other homosexuals and that's not even getting into the dicy waters of why none of them are ever bisexual, and why they don't seem to hang around any straight men...or lesbians, actually.

's one of the small positives in Queer As Folk in my head...they actually hang around a couple lesbians. Token ones, sure, but they're there in some fashion.

If gay men are portrayed as always in the company of straight women, our sexual audacity is lessened and we can be "delightfully camp." If gay men are portrayed with, you know, other gay men (leaving alone other queer people in general), we might possibly (based on fears) (a) demonstrate we don't "need" straight people, socially, to validate us, and (b) be sexual with each other which is scary for some.

Oddly, I've always wanted someone to do a cheezy hollywood romantic comedy where the romantic male lead was the one with the gay best friend, and how the dynamic there would be different from the norm of gay guy/straight girl. And why is it never straight guy/lesbian? Or, shockingly, any bisexuals? I should really write some screenplays and play around with some of the dynamics that would arise...
 
 
penitentvandal
06:44 / 05.05.06
Yeah, I think the article used some sloppy language and was also too quick to judge gay 'cures' as a success, which is why I mentioned the need for proper longtitudinal studies above. I agree that calling someone 'formerly gay' is a bit daft and doesn't fit into their spectrum idea - surely the person in question still has at least some homosexual component, as - according to their thesis - it's impossible to go from all-the-way-gay to Joe Friday-like levels of straightness due to those two positions being kind of locked-in genetically.

The problem in discussions of gay sexuality is that people always tend - even the most enlightened ones - to fall back on one/zero thinking, often without thinking about it. I'm sure the authors of that article regret that choice of wording now, but the thing is they were probably unconscious, when they wrote it, that the simple two words 'former gay' were actually contrary to their thesis.

On the same theme of science versus the gays, interesting to see that last weeks New Scientist, the special 'Love' issue, had a feature on studies of romantic coupling in gay relationships, arguing that it functioned differently than straight pairings. It actually started with a rather novel critique of the matching hypothesis, arguing that the existence of heterosexuality itself would not be predicted by the matching hypothesis if you take it to its logical conclusion (the matching hypothesis, put simply, is that we all try to get together with partners who are similar to us - the logical extension of that, then, is that the person most similar to you is obviously someone of the same sex as you...).

The guy's basic point was that it seems straight people go for partners of a different sex who are similar to them while gayers go for partners of the same sex who are a wee bit different. Note the one/zero thinking creeping in there - the idea of homosexuality and heterosexuality being points on a spectrum insted of opposing states never features in the article. I also found myself reading it a bit critically, not least because of some points made without data like 'a common gay pairing is an older gay man with a younger man, often of a different race'. Is it really? How common? Where are the statistics? And isn't it, I don't know, just possible that there could be an economic reason why these pairings happen, rather than one which shows the distinctive sexual preferences of the gays? Oh, also it was illustrated with a picture of two girls lezzing up. In, I repeat, New Scientist.

Hopefully next year we can have New Scientist: The PORN Issue!
 
 
Ex
07:56 / 05.05.06
So: next question set: what is 'coming out'? how does it work? what is 'the closet'? how does that work?

This is my hobby horse!

In simple terms, being in the closet is knowing something about your sexual identity which you haven't disclosed to the world (usually that you're gay).

Some complicating factors:

- It's hard to take into account the way heterosexual expectations keep forming around you if you don't keep coming out. It's not a one-shot deal.

- I think that 'coming out' became a big focus for 1970s/80s gay liberation campaigning. The assumption of heterosexuality, and the enforced silence about it (gay peope being at risk from losing jobs, family support, childcare if they came out), were seen as the primary way of oppressing gay people (this is especially in the US but the UK and other European countries nicked some of the terminology and the political ideas). Thus coming out beomes a really important political act.

This is helpful to an extent, and I don't want to knock how useufl and how hard coming out is, but I think that concept of coming out has left us with this tricky legacy:

- An insistence on coming out as a big political act doesn't take into account people's varying abilities to come out. Lots of the coming out novels I've read involve a white middle class chap who manages to come out when he's financially fairly stable, and can move away from the family/hometown. I think people with less money, or more investment in/reliance on their family, would find it harder. These same novels go very hardcore on people who don't come out - Paul Monette compares them to Nazis collaborators...

- A lot of writing on coming out and the closet assumes it's a universal phenomenon, when if you look at other eras and countries, there are other ways of articulating sexuality, and other oppressions more pressing than the assumption of heterosexuality. (I spoke to an academic in India a couple of years ago who wanted to know why US and UK gay mailing lists were always talking about coming out as though gays in these countries never did anything else).

A really interesting thing I dug up was the argument that 'the closet' comes about in the postwar period in the US as a kind of compromise. Anti-queer people wanted more legislative and social power to investigate people's lives and make sure they weren't gaying, queer people resisted. The closet was a kind of 'don't ask, don't tell' for the entire country, for life. The chap I was reading this in (William Eskridge) said the closet was a compromise, and the compromise broke down because wider society broke their end of the 'deal' - more bar raids, more intrusive policing - and this lead to Gay Liberation in the 1970s, and the view of the closet as a huge evil.

I don't know if I buy the idea of the closet as a compromise with mutually beneficial elements - is 'shut up or we poke you in the eye' a compromise? But I think that as a way of thinking about gay identity it's got specific historical roots.
 
 
Ganesh
08:46 / 05.05.06
Slightly pushed for time at the mo, but wanted to thank Ex for that stuff about the historical underpinnings of the 'closet' - I was genuinely unware of all of that - and link to an old thread from 2002, prompted by my failing to 'out' myself in the most gay-friendly of situations...
 
 
Ganesh
08:51 / 05.05.06
Actually while searching for my original Straight-Acting thread, I also found this one which briefly touches on terminology, and this one about explaining poovery to young children.
 
 
Ganesh
00:13 / 06.05.06
Incidentally (and apologies for contributing a succession of short posts here), I've reviewed the Homo 101 thread to date and am generally very happy with it. I appreciate people holding back on snarkiness and giving genuine answers to honest queries.

I'm still a little uncertain about the presence of so much bi/queer stuff in this thread. On the one hand, it's absolutely appropriate because, God knows, homo intersects with bi and queer; on the other, I think there are distinct bi and queer identities (bi anyway, less certain about queer) distinct from homo, and I feel it might be useful to start a Bi 101 thread as a focus for questions about bi identity. Queer 101? Maybe. From a purely selfish point of view, I want to ask questions about bisexuality and possibly queer. I know it's a pain in the arse, but would anyone mind starting such a thread (or threads)?
 
 
Jackie Susann
07:32 / 06.05.06
I want someone to start Hetero 101 so I can find out more about their mysterious lifestyles.
 
  

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