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Homo 101

 
  

Page: 123(4)56

 
 
Ganesh
07:46 / 06.05.06
I'm not sure I do. I know a few and I've nothing against them, but I'm not keen on them shoving their lifestyle in my face.
 
 
Cat Chant
12:05 / 06.05.06
You know that idea of gay guys hanging round with girls that's often represented in movies and so on? What's that all about?

This links to something I wanted to pick up on the first page of this thread - Bard's representation of Kathryn Williams' worry about a bunch of straight teenage girls who liked to giggle over their favourite bishonen stuff, and how this is different from looking at queer romance and sexuality. I was still 'straight' when I was a teenager, and my engagement with gay male representations/erotica was probably one of the earliest unambiguously queer bits of my desires and practices. Similarly, one of the things about gay men/straight women identifications is an attempt on the part of straight women to refashion heterosexuality - to find a way to love men which doesn't involve them in a bad, 50s-style-straight set of submissive, self-hating gender practices (I think Joanna Russ might have written about this in her essay on slash?). So although I agree that there's potentially a problem with queer desires and people being recuperated as for heterosexuality (cf the 'Queer Eye' guys putting their skills to work in order to improve a heterosexual wedding aesthetically and stylistically), I also think it's often a bit more complicated than that.

Ganesh, re the Bi 101 and Queer 101 threads, I think it would be good to have them as separate threads but also to keep the overlap - GGM has said that she identifies as bi and queer, I've said that I identify as queer and gay/lesbian, and I think it would be problematic to try and enforce the 'proper' boundary between all those terms. So this thread would be for 'homo-flavoured' discussion rather than/as well as discussion of homo issues.
 
 
Cat Chant
12:08 / 06.05.06
Also, would it be too soon to start a low-snark Feminism 101 thread (given that the original Feminism 101 thread was many good things, including high-snark)? I think it would be a good idea, but perhaps feelings are running too high for people to feel strong enough to deal with 'stupid' gender questions...
 
 
Ganesh
12:18 / 06.05.06
Deva: absolutely. I suggest starting more 101 threads not in order to exclude people from this one, or to attempt to enforce boundaries, but to have a sort of 'core' thread for questions about bisexual identity, etc. I really like the idea of retaining a high degree of overlap.
 
 
Dead Megatron
13:40 / 06.05.06
handedness appears to be at least as much a result of socialisation as genetics: left-handed people can and do have right-handed kids, because in our dexteronormative society right-handedness is an advantage.

Wait, what? I don't want to drag us off-topic but is this true? Blue-eyed people can have brown-eyed kids. Little people can have regular-height kids. Why couldn't left-handed people have right-handed kids, or heterosexuals have homosexual kids?


Sorry for stepping in to comment a post from two days ago that's only marginally involved in the debate, but...

Blue-eyed people can only have brown -eyed children if their mate is brown-eyed (recessive gene). Left-handedness, on the other hand, although influenced by genetics, can be repressed by the environment in its early development. I am left-handed, and I have an uncle who was supposed to be left-handed, but was forced by my grandma tob e right-handed. As a result, his hand-writing is, even now, almost 60 years laters, praticaly unreadable. It is a similar situation with homosexuality: gay people can be repressed and forced into a heterosexual life-style that until the day they die, but they will never be as happy and sexualy satisfied as if they were allowed to be who they were meant to be.

In fact, left-handedness is - to a much lesser extend of course - a repressed group hust as the gay people. There are some parts of the world where even today we are persecuted for that, and to have a left-handed child is reason for shame. And I do experience "left-handed pride" (we should have a parade).


Now, so just that I don't step in and leave without contributing fot this thread, here's a piece of news that might lead to a new point in the debate: recently, the penal system of my home-state (São Paulo, Brazil) announced that they shall stablish conjugal visits for gay inmates. This new norm has been instituted in one prision, in a trial basis, but shall be acessible to all prisions within the year. It's no gay marriage, but it's something, a good starting point. Or, is it not? Does anybody have any info how other countries deal with this gay inmate issue?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
15:49 / 06.05.06
The Lord Chancellor doesn't approve of your thread title, Homo Boy.

The Lord Chancellor is facing accusations of political correctness after banning the word “homosexual” from official documents in his department.

Lord Falconer has ordered for the word to be removed on the grounds that it “may be considered offensive.”
 
 
Ganesh
16:07 / 06.05.06
As with "gay" (and, for that matter, "black"), "homosexual" could, I suppose, be viewed as faintly offensive when used as a noun. As an adjective, however, I'm having trouble seeing the problem.
 
 
Axolotl
16:28 / 06.05.06
Is there any truth to the reputation gay men have for promiscuity?
I wasn't sure how to phrase this; for example I'm not sure if promiscuity has too many negative connotations, so please take it as an honest question with no intention of causing offense, and apologies if I have done so.
 
 
Ganesh
16:35 / 06.05.06
Statistically, I think, yes, gay men are likely to have more sexual partners than lesbians or straight people. One strand of theory suggests that this is because men are, generally speaking, more likely than women to desire multiple sexual partners - and gay men, without any requirement to accommodate the different sexual priorities of women, become a sort of 'men squared' when it comes to promiscuity.

I'm not quite sure how I feel about this.
 
 
*
17:00 / 06.05.06
So far as I can tell it's perfectly reasonable to notice that there are many gay men for whom promiscuity (having many short-term sex partners, which may include anonymous sex) is an important part of their sexuality. But there are also gay men who don't fit this mold, and the perception that anonymous sex with thirty guys in a park in the course of a week is just part of being gay hurts us, I think. I think that gay men who are comfortable in stable relationships with one or a few people and who prefer to have sex in the context of those relationships are not as visible, maybe, and that can make some young gay men feel as if promiscuity is their only option. Showing that it's a perfectly fine option so long as it's done safely is a good thing, in my opinion. But when I hear gay men deride the other gay men who prefer stable, even monogamous relationships as assimilationist, it makes me uncomfortable.

I'm not getting down on you for asking the question, by the way. I've been thinking about this a lot myself, as a gay man who did most of his growing up as a woman. Whereas in a laid-back, queer and queer friendly environment as a woman, I was probably thought of as promiscuous because I was bisexual and poly and had more than one committed relationship at a time, as a gay man surrounded by younger gay men I'm feeling by comparison like one of those white picket fence fags on the cover of HRC's membership magazines. I notice that all the gay men I know seem to have been injured in some way by heterosexism and homophobia—in a lot of ways I think the people I'm surrounded by feel themselves to be unloveable, in ways that I think relate more to the experience of growing up gay than to the common human experience of feeling unloveable. I think intuitively (or common-sensically, perhaps?) that this feeling of being unloveable does push many young gay men to establish their sexual identities by being more promiscuous than they might otherwise wish.
 
 
Ganesh
17:33 / 06.05.06
I think intuitively (or common-sensically, perhaps?) that this feeling of being unloveable does push many young gay men to establish their sexual identities by being more promiscuous than they might otherwise wish.

I think we need to beware of pushing this line of thinking too far, however. I wouldn't wish to suggest, for example, that the desire to have many sexual partners necessarily stems from low self-esteem or psychological 'damage' from whatever source. Experience leads me to believe that, while this is undoubtedly true for some gay men, others are perfectly happily hedonistic/promiscuous without a feeling of "being unloveable".
 
 
*
20:07 / 06.05.06
Precisely, thanks.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
20:21 / 06.05.06
Perhaps the high-promiscuity thing is also sustained and perpetuated because so much of 'scene' gay/queer %culture% is based around going out, around being flash and brash and obvious and forward. In other words, that it's centered around exactly the same thing that your typical 'straight' weekend meat market is, only kicked up a notch or two and a fair bit sillier.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
20:40 / 06.05.06
I want someone to start Hetero 101 so I can find out more about their mysterious lifestyles. (Jackie Susann)

What do they do in bed, anyway?
 
 
Cat Chant
22:00 / 06.05.06
Have sex? Sleep? Eat breakfast?
 
 
*
22:49 / 06.05.06
Come 'round to my place if you're curious...
 
 
Axolotl
11:35 / 07.05.06
Thank you for answering my question and I will bear in mind your comments about this issue.
 
 
alas
15:01 / 07.05.06
so long as it's done safely

A man I love, who is gay would I think take issue with this basic idea. He, like all of us, has his own issues, but I think falls into the category Ganesh mentioned of, basically, happily hedonistic--I will strongly resist labeling his beliefs/practices as simply pathological or the result or low self-esteem.

He's also both well educated and well informed about AIDS etc. and deeply rooted in a working-class identity. The fact is, he doesn't use protection for pretty dangerous sex. His argument is, basically (as best I can currently translate it--but do be aware this is a translation of sorts, it's my best attempt at understanding an idea that I have deep training in rejecting): Sex is dangerous. The danger is a deep part of the pleasure. The language and culture of safe-sex as a middle-class carefulness, a kind of preciousness, that he rejects, because it invariably privileges "safety" over "pleasure."

You can argue "it can be both/and" (both safe and pleasureable) rather than either/or, but, particularly if your pleasure is deeply enmeshed with, e.g., bareback penetration, then for him it becomes clear that at some level you need to make that choice: safety or pleasure.

To select for "safety" is to align, for him, with a middle-class mindset that he fundamentally rejects. He does not do this lightly. To engage in the efforts of disease detection and control (getting tested, waiting for results), make judgments about what is "safer" enough...is to engage in a modality of the clinic, of the hygienic, of the managed life, a modality that is fundamentally contrary to the anarchy of sexual pleasure. Life is simply not worth living if it finally bows before the clinic. It is a kind of prophylactic life.

Again, be aware that this is a translation--I probably haven't done him justice and, frankly, I don't want to dwell too much on his particularity as we discuss this, because the most critical element is the argument that unsafe sex--or the unsafeness of sex-- can itself be deeply entangled in one's sexual orientation, identity, and philosophy of life. I've been wrestling with this issue in my own mind, and would like to hear some of your reflections on it.
 
 
*
15:24 / 07.05.06
That's fine by me so long as his partners are also aware of that risk and take it on consensually. I would disagree that my concern for my safety and my partners' safety is indicative of a middle-class mindset—there are lots of other things about me indicative of a middle-class mindset, but safety is, I think, a pretty human value that crosses class boundaries. I agree this survival drive will manifest differently in different class settings and be shaped by social values as well as personal values, but I don't think the desire for safety in sex (and by this I don't just mean protection from STI's, I mean protection from weirdfuckers who think it would be fun to knife a queer who's sucking their cock at the time, protection from getting arrested during or for sexual activity if that risk is undesired, etc.) is limited to the middle-class, nor should it be.

Still, I'm familiar with R.A.C.K.*, and I probably should have said awareness and minimization of undesired risk instead of safety.



*Risk Aware Consensual Kink, an alternative to Safe Sane and Consensual (SSC).
 
 
Dead Megatron
15:51 / 07.05.06
I want someone to start Hetero 101 so I can find out more about their mysterious lifestyles. (Jackie Susann)

What do they do in bed, anyway?


Pretty much the same thing, except the positions are a bit less interchangeable.
 
 
Cat Chant
16:18 / 07.05.06
I would actually be interested in a Hetero 101 thread.
 
 
alas
16:29 / 07.05.06
I should also have emphasized, by the way, that I did not raise my friend's perspective as some kind of critique of you or your argument, id (although re-reading I can see how they could come across that way). Your words (which I easily could have said!) just reminded me of him and my own conflict.

I agree that safety is not just a middle-class thing, and concerns for safety do not have to be framed that way; I brought that up because I'm struggling to understand and express my friend's viewpoint. (And really am still not sure I'm being accurate). I write, obviously, because I am concerned for my friend--I love him, so I want him to both be happy and to live: to live and to really live, to live fully. His point of view resonates with something in me very deeply, but at the same time it's also kind of scary and I am not completely sure where I stand. (I love encountering ideas that have the kind of visceral effect on me that this does.)

And also I think this argument does go beyond the class argument I (over-?) emphasized, and the heart of it is something that I have mainly encountered in writings by gay men--Foucault, especially, but also nascent forms of it in Oscar Wilde and others. I.e., this part:

To engage in the efforts of disease detection and control (getting tested, waiting for results), [to] make judgments about what is "safer" enough...is to engage in a modality of the clinic, of the hygienic, of the managed life, a modality that is fundamentally contrary to the anarchy of sexual pleasure. Life is simply not worth living if it finally bows before the clinic. It is a kind of prophylactic life.

That part of what I wrote feels like it's getting closer. There's a certain specific kind of poetics (?) here that I feel I'm not quite getting expressed that I think I primarily know through the writings of / my friendships with gay men. Maybe I should back way up and ask this question: Am I correct in seeing this a particular kind of gay poetics / politics (?) (is this the right term)? [This question should not be taken to imply that there aren't other modes of being gay out there.]

I hope it goes without saying that I stand with id on the issue of consensuality (and am pretty sure my friend does)...Although, as I write that, I am thinking about how messy consent can be when the outcomes of one's actions cannot be fully understood until they are lived (serious illness, pregnancy, etc.) and which may be asymmetrical: I may be able to get pregnant, you may not be able to. It may turn out that I am immune to a disease while you are not. I may be MORE aware of a disease and its ramifications than you--and it's pretty hard to determine one's own level of awareness and understanding, let alone another person. Those asymmetries can complicate consent, especially after the fact; can shape how we understand consent and how we remember sexual encounters.

But to live. To really live is to live in some sort of risk. To live in pain and messiness and to accept the impossibility of its perfect "management." That's the part that attracts me. Thoughts?
 
 
*
17:01 / 07.05.06
I have sympathy for the desire for poetry, but I think it's a limited view of the poetic, the romantic, the sensual which thinks these desirable things cannot take place in the presence of latex. (I understand you to be talking about that specific form of safety primarily, so I'll focus on that.) Is there poetry in suffering? Yes, but there are many kinds of suffering, and I choose the ones I'd rather inscribe in verse on my own life—ripping open my heart to someone else, fusing our ideas as if they were our body fluids, binding each other together at the brainstem rather than with bonds of blood and semen, and still being bound together in this way to give each other all possible freedom. There's a lot of suffering in that friction between freedom and bondage, and I don't need to add onto it grosser suffering for my life to have meaning. I don't need to contract a terrible disease and die of it. Hell, I don't even need to contract a mildly annoying disease and live with it for the rest of my life. Other poets have done this before me. The trope is played out.
Can I manage risk perfectly? No, but there's also poetry in trying. There's poetry even in the slick, fragile-seeming translucence of a condom. There's poetry in the elegance of a life that balances the happy anarchy of sexual pleasure with the care that goes into routines of protection, the little rituals we do to express our love for life and our desire for us both or all to keep living it.
Yes, there's a certain specific kind of poetics in your friend's choices. But poetics, unlike politics, is aesthetic. I may prefer the sonnet to blank verse, and that's okay, just as it's fine by me that others prefer blank verse. There's also a politics to my decisions that are different from the politics of your friend's decisions, and I don't know if those are value neutral. The Right would love to see us all get diseases and die; it would affirm their belief in our inherent inferiority. It would affirm to them that we are deserving of death, that we can't love each other enough to keep from killing each other with our body fluids. That's not poetry, it's politics. And there's nothing of the happy anarchy of sexual pleasure in fulfilling their hateful prophecies. And the very fact that our poets, our greatest lovers of the life, are espousing the politics of self-destruction in their poetic choices saddens me. I wouldn't take that choice from them, but it means that another kind of poetry may die out—the poetry of gay men taking care of each other into their old age.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:17 / 07.05.06
It is worth noting that it is absolutely astonishing what conceptual lengths men are prepared to go to not to admit that they can't get or keep it up effectively while trying to put on a condom. I'm not saying that this is what your friend is doing, alas. I'm just saying.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:33 / 07.05.06
Fascinating thread this.

Just really wanting to register keeness on a hetero 101 thread. Various reasons. Someone want to start it? Why not?

Id: I find what you say about promiscuity and gendered community fascinating, (the being female, bi and potentially multiply-partnered=Capital P-promiscuous, whereas your position now being 'picket fence' (which as a self-i'd fencesitter, I loveas a descriptor)) and want to come back to that, when I have a clear head. Just, for now, saying thanks for that.
 
 
Ganesh
17:46 / 07.05.06
The Right would love to see us all get diseases and die; it would affirm their belief in our inherent inferiority. It would affirm to them that we are deserving of death, that we can't love each other enough to keep from killing each other with our body fluids. That's not poetry, it's politics. And there's nothing of the happy anarchy of sexual pleasure in fulfilling their hateful prophecies.

But, equally, denying oneself something one otherwise enjoys because it might have negative consequences which would notionally make The Right (by whom I'm assuming we're meaning a subset of, possibly religious, conservative people) happy would be allowing said Right to curtail one's sexual pleasure, happily anarchic or otherwise. A sort of political Don't Do X Or The Terrorists Will Have Won.

Wouldn't it?
 
 
alas
18:21 / 07.05.06
Thanks for all these responses--I especially am moved by the passion and poetry of your response, id. Tip the hat back to Haus's dependable wry cynicism. And definitely interested in responses to Ganesh's query. I'm listening and pondering.
 
 
*
19:57 / 07.05.06
True, 'Nesh. And I'm speaking from a biased perspective, I realize now. As a gay man whose fleshbound dick cannot, at this point in time, be used for penetration, who therefore uses prosthetics for some forms of sexual activity anyway, and who has always used condoms when being penetrated, if there is a power and poetry in penetration that is unsullied by latex barriers it remains an undisclosed mystery to me. Mysterious to me also is how the amazing power and poetry that is really good sex could possibly be thwarted or even meaningfully diminished by something like a mere nanometer of latex. These biases probably render my opinion less than informed. But I don't feel I'm giving anything up by using a condom, or, say, not following a stranger down a strange alley in a strange city at 3 am when no one is around to hear me yell for help.

(Somehow alas has got me speaking in what Petronius (in translation anyway) referred to as the Asiatic, as opposed to the Attic, style. My apologies; I'm sure I'll come down eventually.)
 
 
Ganesh
20:15 / 07.05.06
But I don't feel I'm giving anything up by using a condom, or, say, not following a stranger down a strange alley in a strange city at 3 am when no one is around to hear me yell for help.

For many, I think it's about what's fetish, fantasy and the thrill of taboo - rather than what's sensible or common sense. To a certain extent, I can relate to this: my own sexual 'thumbprint' has kinks and whorls which don't make a great deal of logical sense, and in pursuit of which I expend time and money. On occasion, I also take certain calculated risks which others might consider foolhardy - and which, following your reasoning, I'd be losing nothing by avoiding, by 'giving up'. I think I would lose out, though: in surrendering aspects of my fetish life, I'd be losing part of my sexuality.

Fetishes, kinks, pecadilloes aren't necessarily easy to suppress, in any case, and I can completely see why some take big risks in pursuit of theirs. Assuming consent, that, surely, is their prerogative.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:34 / 07.05.06

But to live. To really live is to live in some sort of risk. To live in pain and messiness and to accept the impossibility of its perfect "management." That's the part that attracts me. Thoughts?


OK, let me try again... I guess we can start with crossing the road. To cross the road requires and element of risk. There's always a risk that you will be hit by a car, and the only way to avoid that risk is never to cross the road. And, if you never cross the road, you never get to that all-you-can-eat buffet on the other side of the road. Looking both ways before crossing the road, or waiting for the green man to appear, or waiting for the green man _and_ looking both ways all slow you down, and in some cases may make you too late to do all the fun stuff you want to do on the other side of the road. Most of the time, you don't actually need to do either of these things - you can just barrel across the road and do OK.

That's road safety, and so politics arguably don't apply, but then to a degree safer sex, although it _can_ be a political issue, I don't think it necessary need be political. Alas, you say above that your friend's enjoyment of sex is massively reduced if he does not either penetrate or experience penetration without a condom. That seems to me to be pretty much key. The reduction in pleasure does not justify the reduction in risk. Ergo, no condom. After that, one can talk about politics or poetics, but I think it's unwise to underestimate the compelling argument presented by getting off. After that, it probably comes down to how responsible one wishes to be _around_ that - making it clear, I suppose, that this unprotected sex is not a special-occasion thing, but rather a matter of policy. Ideally, I suppose, one would seek out the sexual company of people who were already afflicted with whatever one might be risking by one's current sexual behaviour - thus allowing one to experience the risk one finds politically and poetically valuable oneself without putting others at risk themselves.

On the other hand, it's not as if people aren't _aware_ of risk - so, why should one person be responsible? One might look, for example, at people who are not HIV-postive who remain in sexual relationships with people who are, while taking action to try to avoid infection themselves - messy sex, but not dirty sex, as Tony Kushner puts it. There's a moral/relational issue there - at the risk of going Asiatic myself, that the actuality of love - and of sex - is more important than the possibility of a particular risk of death. See also bloodplay, breath control, electroplay and so on.

Hmmm. This is an interesting one, and probably one that needs more thought, perhaps outside this thread.
 
 
Ganesh
20:43 / 07.05.06
Sure. I think the key point is that, where sexual attraction is concerned, it's difficult to legitimately apply one's own risk:benefit ratios to other people's behaviour.
 
 
*
21:43 / 07.05.06
Thanks, Ganesh. You've articulated something I was struggling to move toward—clearly my risk/benefit analysis is going to be different from many other people's. I also pursue somewhat dangerous kinks, but I do everything in my power to minimize the risks I find unacceptable. For example, I find breathplay sexy, but it suffices for me to pretend, and I'm often guilty of hastily judging people for whom that does not suffice.
 
 
alas
23:20 / 07.05.06
This is all actually very helpful. Haus really nailed it when he said-- but I think it's unwise to underestimate the compelling argument presented by getting off. And Ganesh's point about the acceptable risk: getting off ratio...different for everyone. Yes.

Maybe that's what I was doing, underestimating the getting off argument--or trying too hard to put it into the kind of academic framework I'm trained to validate ...Because the thing is, I totally agree. I am, however, simply afraid I am going to have to watch my friend get sick and die. (I feel roughly the same way about my lover who smokes cigarettes.)

I'm also thinking it may be that I can hear and validate this argument more from gay men (where it is, for me personally, more like the crossing-the-street example) than I could hear it from straight men, where it will tend to have, for me, an edge of domination (implicitly over women/ me) to it, that may block me from understanding/accepting it....hmmm.... (And women? hmmm....)
 
 
Ex
07:35 / 08.05.06
I'm also thinking it may be that I can hear and validate this argument more from gay men (where it is, for me personally, more like the crossing-the-street example) than I could hear it from straight men, where it will tend to have, for me, an edge of domination (implicitly over women/ me) to it, that may block me from understanding/accepting it....hmmm.... (And women? hmmm....)

Whereas I think hearing the suggestion from gay men and women makes me wonder about the extent to which it's convenient for society that they conceptualise their sexual desires in ways that accept levels of danger and risk. Which is tricky, because then I feel I'm questioning people's right to self-explore and self-define - and while I don't think anyone's motives should be sacred, I'd be disproportionately questioning the people who've historically had their rights to self-define their sexuality most curtailed.

Can I (or anyone) start another thread on this, maybe in the Headshop? I'm interested in gay critics like Leo Bersani saying that sex involves the ecstatics of self-annihilation, and Kate Roiphe saying that sex is dangerous and always involves risk and miscommunication. And I want to try to explain why I have sympathies with one of those critics and really dislike the other's work.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:45 / 08.05.06
I am, however, simply afraid I am going to have to watch my friend get sick and die.

Well, or not - risk taken does not necessarily mean outcome inevitable. And there is a danger in associating promiscuity in gay men with death - I mean, I worry about people using their mobile phones while driving. But yes - if you have a friend who base-jumps, it's possible that they'll die while base-jumping, and it's pretty much impossible not to worry about that.

To a degree, since the possibility of infection is not preventing your friend from having unprotected sex, the possibility of you being upset is not likely to either. There are things he can do to minimise the impact of his actions on his own body and on the bodies of others - like regular testing, which will allow for the earliest possible treatment - but might lead to ethical complications further down the line which he may not want to confront. I think there is a difference between having a relationship with a risky sexual practice that makes it impossible to be fulfilled as a person without taking risks on the one hand and being a complete bell-end on the other, but where you draw that line is always going to be a bit of a personal decision.
 
  

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