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Learning Magic & Overcoming Magical Paranoia

  
  

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Anthony
07:40 / 02.05.06
now i'm done spamming this thread. many apologies for the inconwenience.
 
 
Sam T.
10:08 / 02.05.06
To get back to the subject at hand, I've found out that the results you get are tinted by all the subsconscious beliefs you are holding.

So you have to delineate clearly what you want, and make a precise 'image' of it. You need to be able to hold in your mind a sharp representation of the desired outcome. That's why all the preparatory stuff and soul searching is so important, you have to uncover all the 'links' that your desire has in your subconscious. Then you may or may not allow some of them to go into your final representation. Tearing off bad associations can sometimes be difficult.

If you hold the unconscious belief that things can go terribly awry, in my opinion, you are in for troubles. As it is wisely adviced, you should first get your hand by enchanting for things that have no emotionnal relevance to you, and that are in themselves no big deal. This way, you'll see how things are working out in their simpler forms.

In the same vein, if you are working with a deity or such when enchanting, expect results to be colored accordingly.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
12:06 / 02.05.06
This might sound a little odd coming from someone who spent Sunday night improvising magic in a henge, but...

Approaching the idea from a sceptical, utilitarian point of view ("magic is a tool to help me think and work things out") then doing things in a legalistic way could be very helpful indeed. If the magic you're doing is making you question everything about what you want and why you want it, and what effects it'll have on other people, well then that's a good result even if nothing happens whatsoever. No 'real' magic needed, but you're still on a winner.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
21:06 / 02.05.06
...that's a good result even if nothing happens whatsoever

Unless you actually need something. Then it can kinda suck.

Don't get me wrong, I think that the best part about doing this shtick is that it will make you strip yourself down and try to figure out exactly what it is you desire. You should absolutely think about that. I think that you've missed the distinction between refining your desire to a precise point, and couching your fear of succeeding in this self-defeating, "I deserve this but not if someone needs it more, or if getting what I want might be bad for me" kind of thinking.

And though I certainly endorse the former (or latter? Shit. The good one.) there's a point where you must roll up your sleeves and do the whole concentrate, focus, breathe, 'project a world' thang, and then let go. Without second-guessing yourself. It's about having faith in the world, and in myself. To provide, and to know what to provide.

Here's the thing. Trying to magically nudge, jolt, or jive the world into what you want will likely not destroy you, give you cancer, cause impotence or bad breathe, etc. What it will do, in some cases, is show you something interesting about getting what you 'want/need/desire.' For example, a friend of mine was 21, lonely, never had a relationship, sad about such, feeling inadequate, and so on. I wrapped up some comdom-sigils under his mattress, and shadowed him with a cut-up tape, a mix of him talking and a lady having an orgasm. Few weeks later he finds someone. This was a few years ago.

Now they're still together. Something he said to me after they'd been together a year - that he was exactly as happy 'now' (at the time) as he was before they'd gotten together. Funny, that.

I've been reading a weblog lately - Alchemically Braindamaged. Now I have to go, but you can google that ('Alchemical Braindamage' for the old one, 'Alchemically Braindamaged' for the new). The fellow in charge said something about getting your wish - that it's a lot like a junkie getting the next fix. In other words, it doesn't solve anything, really, or bring peace, or greater understanding. It is not a solution. He's of the ol' "you must first understand yourself and what you really want, before your enchantments will do a damn bit of good" school of thought, and I've found his stuff quite insightful and useful.

(Shame about his school of thought's title, though. Makes it hard to prosletize. Too wordy.)

Still, it's a continuous process. It's not as though you suddenly and completely finish with the issue of self-understanding, drop that entirely and focus on bad-ass, earth-shattering enchantments. Besides, sometimes you simply have to help people stay out of jail or make ends meet. Sometimes getting something that in no way changes or betters your life really brings to the front what it is that you need.

Plus it's always one hell of a ride.
 
 
dmj2012
08:25 / 10.05.06
Whoo! Lots to read here. Thanks for the replies. At this point I feel fairly confident about the outcome part of casting.

My other question is in regards to the "sorcery vs psychology" bit. I've got quite a bit of knowlege of psychology and as such I usually have a pretty good idea of the underlying reasons for areas of my life I wish to change. For example (a real example this time), I know that my owning a lemon of a car has a lot to do with my attitudes towards money, credit, debt and finances. So do I do a spell to get a better car (ie. fixing the manifestation), or do I do a spell to change my attitudes towards money and finance (ie. the underlying cause)?
 
 
Sam T.
11:23 / 10.05.06
The underlying cause, it's always the best, logical choice.

If you haven't done so already, you might like to check what Charlie did recommend, here is the link: Alchemically Braindamaged

Coming from a 'get result' background myself, I did find that this was very much needed.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:35 / 10.05.06
Does it need to be an either/or scenario? It's always better to look for the root causes of a problem and deal with them, rather than spend your time firefighting the symptoms of those underlying imbalances. But that's not to say you can't treat the symptoms as well, on top of that, because they are the most immediate and problematic factor. Why not try to deal with both the underlying problem and it's manifestation. The worst that could happen is you will discover something for yourself about the nature of magic and how best to approach situations such as this, and will not have to ask so many stupid questions as you will have discovered the answers for yourself by doing.
 
 
Quantum
13:33 / 10.05.06
As Gypsy says, do both- like taking an aspirin for your headache and going to the doctor too. I know what you mean though, it's another avenue for self-doubt to stroll down and cripple you.
 
 
Sam T.
16:42 / 10.05.06
"So I'll remove the cause, but not the symptoms." - Rocky Horror Picture Show.

What Gypsy says. Nothing wrong with getting your stuff, it can be a real breather, and can sometimes be necessary for even being able to go further on. Useless in the long run if that is all you do, I tell you, learned it the hard way.
 
 
Sam T.
17:36 / 10.05.06
On the other hand, I have to admit that getting results can do wonder to boost your confidence. It makes you stop feeling like you're only a powerless cog in the machine.
 
 
dmj2012
18:32 / 10.05.06
Thanks for the Alchemical Braindamage re-post. I glossed over it the first time around but got it this time. I'm going to read it in more depth after I eat lunch.

Does it need to be an either/or scenario? It's always better to look for the root causes of a problem and deal with them, rather than spend your time firefighting the symptoms of those underlying imbalances. But that's not to say you can't treat the symptoms as well, on top of that, because they are the most immediate and problematic factor. Why not try to deal with both the underlying problem and it's manifestation. The worst that could happen is you will discover something for yourself about the nature of magic and how best to approach situations such as this, and will not have to ask so many stupid questions as you will have discovered the answers for yourself by doing.

Sound advice. It makes sense. Thanks.

It's funny: I do acupuncture for a living, and a good portion of the diagnostic system I work with daily is looking at things in terms of cause and effect, root and branch. I've found that most (but not all) people respond best when a treatment addresses both. I can't believe I didn't just natually think to apply that to magical pathworking.

I guess I'm just a magic n00b. What would you call that? A m00b? Again, thanks for the replies, people.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
05:37 / 11.05.06
m00b? That's brilliant. I've always been impartial to 'un-cunt,' though. It really has that good and proper kick to it. Though that typically applies to 'non-magic user,' rather than someone new at it. Still, I feel that it is appropriate in these circumstances. I can only hope that the rest of Barbelith will support me in this.
 
 
Anthony
16:25 / 13.05.06
it's the utter annihilation of human consciousness.
 
 
Anthony
17:11 / 13.05.06
the absence of meaning (beautiful). love of nihilism rage and chaos and disorder for its own sake. empty streets, thunderstorms, blackness, the love of all these things. seeking the end of the world, the end of the humanotony as i put it...

666
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:14 / 13.05.06
You know that thing we talked about the other day, Anth? You're kind of doing it again.
 
 
dmj2012
06:28 / 19.05.06
So I'm over the paranoia bit. Now I need to actually come up with some rituals to try. Basically I'm looking to get a more reliable car, and I want my new business to be successful. Both of those goals are somewhat connected to each other, and both are connected to some of the deep-seated negative ideas about money I inherited from my parents. So my plan is to come up with a different spell for each separate goal.

Any suggestions about types of magic to try? Candles? Are there types of magic better for the physical goals like the car or the business success as compared to magic in relation to psychology, like overcoming a pessimistic financial outlook inherited from parents?

How specific do my goals needs to be? Isn't stating a specific financial goal in dollars per month better than asking for the more ambiguous "success in business?"

Ack! It's been a long time since I've played with this stuff, and even back in the day I just dabbled whereas now I'm looking into a serious magical committment. Help is greatly appreciated.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:10 / 19.05.06
Isn't stating a specific financial goal in dollars per month better than asking for the more ambiguous "success in business?"

No. It doesnt work like that. It's not like filling out an order. In life, things rarely turn out exactly as we planned them. Magic is a part of life, and is therefore no different. You need to be clear about what you want but leave a maximum amount of room for the magic to breathe. "Success is business" is not a very ambiguous intent at all. If you started complicating things with extra factors like a specific monthly amount in unmarked US$ delivered on 14th of the month unless it's going to harm somebody or unless the money could be used by someone who needs it more, etc.. then you are bringing ambiguity into the situation. Keep it blunt. Keep it simple. The universe does not have an administration department to read through all of your small print.

Most of all though, just cocking DO SOMETHING! Make mistakes, get your fingers burned, learn from the experience. Experiment with stuff and then you will be able to form your own opinions about magic and not have to waste time asking inane questions every couple of weeks. If you are not prepared to take some risks and run the chance of getting hurt in the pursuit of teh arcane powerzz then give up now.

Another thing that bothers me is the overwhelming emphasis you seem to have on getting stuff. There is nothing wrong with results magic, but your entire focus seems to be on manifesting material things. Are you doing anything else? What other areas of magic are you looking at? If you approach magic exclusively as a gifts catalogue you are unlikely to have particularly rewarding experiences with it. You need a lighter touch for this stuff. Try to grab it and it will slip through your fingers. You can manifest all manner of interesting material things through the medium of magic, but it's best approached within a wider 'process of becoming' than with the capitalist aquisitionary mindset that comes across from your posts. What else are you doing beyond tyring to score yourself a new motor?
 
 
LVX23
14:09 / 19.05.06
I would add that it's wise to give something to the universe before asking for something. And in general, keep a balance between the two (slightly tipped towards the giving side) along your path.
 
 
dmj2012
17:09 / 19.05.06
No. It doesnt work like that. It's not like filling out an order. In life, things rarely turn out exactly as we planned them. Magic is a part of life, and is therefore no different. You need to be clear about what you want but leave a maximum amount of room for the magic to breathe. "Success is business" is not a very ambiguous intent at all. If you started complicating things with extra factors like a specific monthly amount in unmarked US$ delivered on 14th of the month unless it's going to harm somebody or unless the money could be used by someone who needs it more, etc.. then you are bringing ambiguity into the situation. Keep it blunt. Keep it simple. The universe does not have an administration department to read through all of your small print.

This is good information and re-iterates more clearly what you said on page one. Thank you.

Most of all though, just cocking DO SOMETHING! Make mistakes, get your fingers burned, learn from the experience. Experiment with stuff and then you will be able to form your own opinions about magic and not have to waste time asking inane questions every couple of weeks. If you are not prepared to take some risks and run the chance of getting hurt in the pursuit of teh arcane powerzz then give up now.

Shit or get off the pot, eh? As someone who grew up in New York City I love it.

At the risk of explaining myself, it's not like I'm just sitting here worrying about stuff. I'm pretty busy a lot of the time and haven't really had the chance to sit down to prepare an actual spell. I tend to research things a bit before doing them and as questions come up for me I've posted them here.

Another thing that bothers me is the overwhelming emphasis you seem to have on getting stuff. There is nothing wrong with results magic, but your entire focus seems to be on manifesting material things. Are you doing anything else? What other areas of magic are you looking at? If you approach magic exclusively as a gifts catalogue you are unlikely to have particularly rewarding experiences with it. You need a lighter touch for this stuff. Try to grab it and it will slip through your fingers. You can manifest all manner of interesting material things through the medium of magic, but it's best approached within a wider 'process of becoming' than with the capitalist aquisitionary mindset that comes across from your posts. What else are you doing beyond tyring to score yourself a new motor?

This just happens to be where I'm at right now. Once again I risk having to explain myself.

I've been on a "spiritual" path (for lack of a better term - I'm not a big fan of the word "spiritual") for almost fifteen years now. The way I live my life has been heavily influenced by Taoist thinking. I've studied with a mentor/shaman in a small tradition in New Mexico for the last eight years, and the focus in her path is on altruism, an ideal I strongly believe in. I've got experience with NLP, I practice acupuncture for a living and have a good amount of experience with yoga (though my yoga practice has fallen by the wayside recently ). In other words, I'm not just a someone with a casual interest trying to waste your time.

In any case, all the work and soul-searching has created a huge amount of personal growth for me, but the one area I've yet to be able to overcome is the financial one and as such I thought I'd try something I hadn't done in a long time, spells and sorcery. I got my graduate degree almost seven years ago, and since then I've manifested nothing but poverty-level income. I've been unable to make any payments on my student loans in that time. Notice that I didn't say above that "I want to be rich like Bill Gates." I simply want to be able to meet the financial responsibilities I've taken on over time. Right now my business is just barely covering its own overhead.

As for the car, I live in a large city in the US with no viable public transportation (which I resent incredibly, but that's another story). Right now the car I drive is twenty years old, and the brakes and the front axle are failing. It's dangerous to drive. Repairing the car would cost more than getting a somewhat newer one, but I don't have the money to do either. I'm pretty much in a state of constant anxiety about my financial situation right now, hence that being my focus.

Also, as I've pointed out, I'm really looking to overcome the underlying beliefs that cause me to manifest this lifestyle. While there is some small self-interest involved, I'm really coming from a place that I can't help or be there for others if I'm incapable of taking care of myself on anything more than a baseline, hand-to-mouth level.

Overall I'm glad for your comments, even if they were a little judgmental for my tastes. I don't appreciate being put on the defensive when I've just come asking for some simple advice, but then again I believe that conflict can help spur growth if handled correctly. I'm not totally "touchy-feely."

Cheers.

I would add that it's wise to give something to the universe before asking for something. And in general, keep a balance between the two (slightly tipped towards the giving side) along your path.

The shamanic discipline I studied has this idea at its core, though usually gifting mentors and spirit animals rather than "the universe." I've always had trouble reconciling the idea, because the gifts never seem to equate what is received (ie. ideas and lessons which I find priceless). Could you give some specific examples to help me get a more concrete idea?
 
  

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