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Underground > Laboratory >

Probiotics and the Intestinal Ecosystem.

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12:12 / 30.05.06

The pro biotics appear to aid in the digestion of the protein heavy food.

Interesting. Do you know if any studies have been done into that xk?

A lot of early societies had a protein-heavy diet, and reared animals for their dairy products. I wonder if the consumption of non-pastuerised milk, etc, provided regular influxes of "probiotic" lactobacillus.

Just thinking out loud here. There are societies that don't rear animals for dairy products aren't there? So if they have a high-protein diet, are they processing the protein less efficiently? Or do they have another supply of the relevant micro-organisms?

Have we got any anthropologists in the house? What's current thinking on when diary animals were first used by humans?

14:43 / 31.05.06

most of them contain enough sugar to offset the benefits of the happy bacteria. xk

I was coming here to rant about that, they're evil! Evil pots of bad!
I'm now researching the early history of animal husbandry thanks to the Cyberman. Grr, damn monkey curiosity.

14:54 / 31.05.06

Most dairy products were developed in Europe, the Middle East and Africa; the people of these continents have traditionally been the most active in terms of exploiting cattle as a primary food source. Some dairy products originate from other countries, like Indian ghee. A small number of non-cow dairy products exist like Italian water buffalo mozzarella cheese, yak butter in Tibet or the fermented horse milk drink called airag in Mongolia.
Dairy products were exported to the rest of the world during the 16th and 17th centuries.

Wow, that late? Crazy.

17:53 / 31.05.06

Weren't they drinking yogurt in Siberia for aaages, though?

*

17:09 / 01.06.06

A small number of non-cow dairy products? I was under the impression that until very recently, most dairy used was actually of the caprine variety.

17:15 / 01.06.06

me love the caprine derived moo! Wait...that would not be moo...

Tufts Medical Doc on Probiotics

which does not say anything about protein but appears to answer the age old question 'Will yogurt stave off the Devil Poo?'

17:30 / 01.06.06

here is something interesting about amino acids and protein tagged with probiotics but it is slightly too unspecific about the connection to probiotics (maybe there isn't any and the topics within the article are just stacked?):

...and more about probiotics to fight off Devil Poo!

the article in full

17:48 / 01.06.06

slight tangent but since the topic of milk came up anyone who wishes to learn about raw milk I strongly advise a trip to this site:

Weston A. Price Foundation

They can come off as a bit looney at first but their research seems to withstand testing and they do source many verifiable studies in their books.

While I can't give you scientific reasons I can tell you that my father's colitis did not respond to any of the medications or surgery he endured, but it seemed that by ingesting raw cow's milk the auto immune response (listed as the reason for the illness by his docs) vanished. His white coats were impressed and have not been able to offer another reason why it just 'turned off'. Though I understand it might have been something entirely off the radar and not the raw milk.

13:40 / 02.06.06

'The Campaign for Real Milk'... I like the idea. And this quote:

...indignities of genetically engineered Bovine Growth Hormone to push her to the udder limits of milk production.

I couldn't find the source material for their claim that pasteurisation kills "beneficial bacteria, [and] promotes pathogens", but I presume it comes from the referenced The Milk Book. Any thoughts on how that works? If it's true, I presume these claims might hold true for any pasteurised (or even cooked) food?

Has anyone (in the UK esp) seen unpasteurised milk for sale, or know of a source?

05:45 / 03.06.06

At my shop (Fresh & Wild in London) they can special order frozen, unpasturized sheep's milk. I'll ask about the brand name if ya really want to know!

I think that a lot of commercially available (not from THE FARM) unpasturized milk is sold frozen because the sell-by date would be reeealy short if it wasn't.

00:05 / 06.06.06

I just got the book 'the Untold Story of Milk' (there's a gripping title for ya). I'm wondering what studies are cited in it but we'll have to wait...

I also get real raw fermented cabbage (kimchee and 'kraut). Do other countries have more or less restriction on raw products than the US? I believe it is a federal law prohibiting interstate raw milk and then each state deals within.

10:41 / 08.08.06

From The Guardian today:

Half of probiotic drinks fail bacteria test.

Essentially this feature reports a claim that half of all probiotic drinks don't actually contain lactobacilli or Bifidobacterium cultures (either at all or in enough quantities to be effective).

Shoppers should be suspicious unless the probiotic drinks and capsules state they contain lactobacilli or bifidobacterium and stipulate a minimum of 10 million bacteria per bottle.

An interesting factoid here.

Research published by the Food Standards Agency last year indicated that some probiotics do reach the gut but found that, out of 35 bacterial strains in 12 commercial products, only lactobacillus was sufficiently robust to survive the whole digestive process.

Whilst it isn't too surprising to discover this, considering the recent upswing in sales of products with "friendly" bacteria. It is important to note that this doesn't apply across the board.

Half the products on sale don't contain the bacteria they say on the label. As a rule of thumb, you can trust the big manufacturers. Their quality control is very good. It would be disastrous for Nestlé, Danone or Yakult to have these other organisms in their products," he said.

On the other hand, there are a lot of manufacturers - many of which sell products on the web - who are unheard of and these are the ones to worry about. Half of the products you can buy have got the wrong bacteria in them, the wrong amount, or are completely sterile.

So it's important to shop smart and do a bit of research when buying probiotic supplements/foodstuff.

Lack of regulation of probiotics is obviously leaving the door open for crap products to be sold to people. It also damages the reputation of probiotic therapy when half of them are no use whatsoever.

The scientists also advised that anyone over 65 should take the products. Past this age, the number of healthy bacteria decrease 1,000-fold to around just 2% of the gut's natural flora.

I did think that this line was interesting, given the reported unwillingness of doctors to provide probiotics on prescription. Obviously the elderly really shouldn't have to buy their own probiotics as it's necessary for their continued health. Perhaps, at least, it could be subsidised?

10:59 / 08.08.06

Free Sauerkraut for the elderly I say.

12:54 / 08.08.06

My Nan would have approved, bless her Germanic heart.

14:42 / 08.08.06

Shouldn't there be a big "L" on Lactobacillus? As in L. acidophilus or L. reuterii? Just to be clear on what you're actually looking for on the label -- it's a genus, not a species. Has lots of common varieties, which might be referred to as "L. whatever."

14:55 / 08.08.06

By the way, that list linked above comes from a study of (non-imaginary) Lactobacillus bacteria in soil, while wikipedia mentions they're present in kimchi, and in the human vagina.

So if you don't like yogurt or sauerkraut, there are other options.

17:40 / 08.08.06

I've been comparing kefir with yogurt recently and I'm getting ready to try making my own kefir as I failed miserably with yogurt. Appearently kefir can become slightly minutely alcoholic which seems like a bad thing in one's dairy products but then I may need to be more open minded.

Lactobacillus bacteria in soil, while wikipedia mentions they're present in kimchi, and in the human vagina.

yup women-kind has been known to use yogurt to re establish Lactobacillus in the vagina. Supposedly some folk add it to colonic/enema water as well to repopulate the colon after antibiotics.

17:50 / 08.08.06

I'm actually (believe it or not) more interested in the implications of it being in the soil -- like putting a bit of dirt in your sourdough to get it started might be a good idea.

21:07 / 08.08.06

I'm actually (believe it or not) more interested in the implications of it being in the soil -- like putting a bit of dirt in your sourdough to get it started might be a good idea.

Although there are lots of potentially pathogenic micro-organisms in soil as well.

16:45 / 09.08.06

my yogurt book seems to be proposing that the happy bacteria is also free floating around like wild yeast?

10:21 / 10.08.06

Yeah, they float around e.g. attached to dust particles. Here's an undergrad lab manual that includes descriptions of aseptic technique (pdf)(for getting pure cultures of organisms).

Old-school microbiology makes a lot of use of bunsen burners: as well as providing the ability to flame-sterilize equipment they can be used to set up little air convection cells to move air away from your culturing equipment (considerably cheaper than flow hoods and containment cabinets).

10:53 / 10.08.06

my yogurt book seems to be proposing that the happy bacteria is also free floating around like wild yeast?

Yes they do, there are plenty of micro-organisms floating in the air. Any of these that colonised (heh colon-ised) the human digestive tract would presumably either be excluded by competitive natives or become part of the system (or cause the screaming runs). But we do intake vast quantities of micro-organisms daily.

As to their mode of entry I would expect that any breathed in could become attached to the inside of the mouth and swallowed in saliva (otherwise they'd end up in the lungs and either be expelled or destroyed by phagocytes). Alternatively they could land on food and be introduced that way.

Of course, we probably inhale someone elses gut flora when in close proximity to someone after a gaseous emission.

Enjoy your lunch.

14:30 / 10.08.06

I wonder if the Lactobacillus are the reason why kimchi seems to be good protection against bird flu.

Have no idea how, since one's bacterial and one's viral. Any ideas?

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

14:14 / 16.08.06

I'd be interested in hearing anyone else's knowledge about potential relationships between colitis and gut flora, mainly because I have ulcerative colitis and it sucks. every doctor I've been too - and there have been many, at many hospitals and in many states, general practitioners and gastrointestinal specialists - has prescribed Prednisone, a rather icky steroid that has side effects (for me, anyway) almost as annoying as having colitis. everyone who is *not* a doctor has recommended diet changes or psychoanalysis for stress which are apparently believed to be the causes of colitis by everyone except doctors. not one doctor has ever said anything to me about my diet.

The problem is that everyone's reccomendations have been different. I've been told that everyone who has colitis is lactose intolerant, or gluten intolerant, or shouldn't eat roughage, or...most of my attempts at satisfying these dietary plans have not produced results for me.

yogurt doesn't seem to do much one way or another. "raw" milk you say?

I could go on about personal experiences with stupid doctors prescribing stuff badly and/or ignoring alternative medicines, but not in this thread...

14:57 / 16.08.06

l I did a bunch of research for my dad's colitis and the raw milk (cow) worked very well for him until he got so over confident as to go eat at a fast food joint.
When he eats a Standard American Diet (SAD) it gets worse. If he sticks to the diet it clears up but he pretty much refuses to stop eating crappy food.

I don't know where you are at but my doctor works with primarily diet based cures and has been very effective for my ailments and has helped people with colitis. He does recommend supplements which he makes and I was nervous about it being a scam for a while. But my health improved vastly under his care and he was fine with me buying other people's supplements as long as they were top quality.

Dr. Ron

He might be able to recommend someone near you for care as well though I interact with him on the phone. He sends me to a local lab to have my blood drawn when needed.

I can't rave enough about a diet based treatment for gut ailments.

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

16:17 / 17.08.06

xk:

where I'm at: upstate new york. however I've seen doctors and specialists in Idaho, California, and even Africa before coming here.

anyway I totally agree - given what it does, I can't imagine diet not being the most important factor in gut health, which is why the behavior of these doctors mystifies me a bit. I have personally found that alcohol, caffiene, and spicy food have a very obvious and direct negative effect on my health, so I've cut those out (sob). however other diet attempts haven't done much for me. I think the situation is more complicated than *just* diet - clearly physical and emotional stress and the state of my immune system are also factors, and trying to sort out which one of them is responsible for what hasn't been feasible yet.

In any event - thanks so much for your response and I will check out Dr. Ron.

16:41 / 05.10.06

More on bacteria vs. viral infections: Lactobacillus to help fight AIDS.

In this case, it's engineered bacteria, but still. They've tinkered with it so the germs produce microbicide in the vagina, since Lactobacillus likes to hang out there anyway.

07:54 / 06.10.06

I'd like to know more about kefir if this is the right place to talk about it. It sounds like a Good Thing and it's supposed to be easier to make than yoghurt.

13:00 / 12.03.08

On the other hand, probiotics are killing people with pancreatitis.

Oops.

The researchers knew that some of their 296 patients would succumb to infectious complications of an inflamed pancreas, a gland that makes hormones and digestive juices. But they never expected that patients provided nutrition laced with probiotics—supposedly beneficial gut microbes—would experience a death rate nearly triple that of people fed just the nutrients.

That's rather upsetting. And it's not specifically the bugs causing the damage directly, but something about the way the body treats the bugs.

Nearly one-third of each group developed infections, but the probiotic bacteria did not cause them in the treated group. "We know," Besselink explains, "because we did blood cultures" to identify the agents responsible. Tests also ruled out any tainting of the probiotics with infectious germs.

What the team did find were nine cases of bowel ischemia—eight of them fatal—a condition in which tissue dies from oxygen starvation, allowing germs and toxins to escape into the body. In each case, the patient had received probiotics.

Besselink surmises that the oxygen demand of microbes introduced into an already stressed digestive system might have contributed to the suffocation of bowel cells. Or, he says, gut cells might simply have viewed the probiotic bacteria as a threat and inappropriately revved up an immune reaction against them, producing collateral damage to the bowel.

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