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Probiotics and the Intestinal Ecosystem.

 
  

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Evil Scientist
13:52 / 27.04.06
It's like The Filth come to life!

Our bodies teem with microbial life, and probably nowhere more so than in our intestines. An entire ecosystem of bacteria, protozoa, yeasts, and even viruses exist within us. Adapted to the environment that is our digestive tract these micro-organisms live in symbiosis with us. We provide them with nutrients and stable conditions and they assist us by out-competing most "alien" micro-organisms and preventing them gaining a foothold that could be detrimental to us.

Probiotics are a form of dietry supplement that includes live microbial culture. They have been recieving a massive ammount of hype recently, and it's starting to look like every cereal in the world is being sold on the "friendly bacteria" they contain.

A course of probiotic foods (normally yoghurt containing live lactobacillus cultures) are often suggested for people who may have, for one reason or another, suffered a decline in gut flora. Because of an intensive course of antibiotics, or a case of severe diarrhoea. The probiotics help to replenish gut flora before some pathogenic organism takes advantage.

There are schools of thought that advocate regular intake of probiotics.

Suggested benefits include:

Managing Lactose Intolerance

Prevention of Colon Cancer

Cholesterol Lowering

Lowering Blood Pressure

Improving Immune Function and Preventing Infections

Reducing Inflammation


Of course, not everyone agrees.

So, lets talk probiotics. Do you use them regularly? Do you feel they are of a benefit? What other ways can we help keep our internal ecosystems full of the good bugs and keep the bad ones out?

A few links you may find helpful:

Food-info.net

Probiotic Wiki
 
 
Quantum
14:08 / 27.04.06
I think it's mostly marketing hype. Before mini-bottles of specially friendly bacteria with strawberry flavour, we had Yoghurt. Live yoghurt (as you say) is great if you've been on antibiotics, or just generally to sort your guts out, and all these things are is a tablespoon of yoghurt each morning, that costs loads, is wrapped in pseudoscience and unnecessary indestructible plastic packaging. I hate them.
 
 
Axolotl
14:33 / 27.04.06
I was under the impression that most of these probiotics are fairly useless unless your own bacteria have been wiped out, for example by a heavy course of antibiotics. Isn't there also issues with regard to the bacteria being killed off by your stomach acid?
Basically I see it as a triumph of marketing over science and can get quite irritated by all the bloody adverts that are on the telly all the bloody time.
 
 
Quantum
14:44 / 27.04.06
From the wiki- There is no published evidence that probiotic supplements are able to replace the body’s natural flora when these have been killed off. There is evidence, however, that probiotics do form beneficial temporary colonies which may assist the body in the same functions as the natural flora, while allowing the natural flora time to recover from depletion. The probiotic strains are then progressively replaced by a naturally developed gut flora. If the conditions which originally caused damage to the natural gut flora persist, the benefits obtained from probiotic supplements will be short lived.

As I don't have a TV I didn't realise they were heavily marketing this stuff, but it supports the idea that it's effectively a propaganda-induced daily addiction of questionable value. I bet the ads are irritating as hell too, healthy looking women drinking them in the gym, smug people explaining to their more-stupid friends that some bacteria are sexy and others evil etc.
They never show a healthy stool I bet.
 
 
Quantum
17:28 / 27.04.06
"Some non-existing bacteria (phantasy names, fraud) mentioned on probiotic products (taken from food-info.net)
Lactobacillus sporogenes
Lactobacillus bifidus
Lactobacillus caucasicus ..."

Hah! Made-up friendly bacteria! Why do people spend money on these things?

"Some fermented products containing similar (often non proven to have a probiotic or health effect) lactic acid bacteria include: Kefir, Yogurt, Sauerkraut, Kimchi"

I'm going to start eating sauerkraut. I wonder what kimchi is?
 
 
Evil Scientist
06:58 / 28.04.06
I'm going to start eating sauerkraut. I wonder what kimchi is?

I need to post up my recipe for meatballs and sauerkraut, that's goooood eating.

Kimchi is basically the same thing. It's a Korean preserve of chillis and pickled vegetables, normally cabbage.

Isn't there also issues with regard to the bacteria being killed off by your stomach acid?

Yes. In the normal course of things the raging chemical furnace that is your stomach will destroy any micro-organism that enters. However there are also plenty of bacterial organisms which are capable of surviving intact.

Helicobacter pylori, for instance, drills itself into the protective mucous layer of the stomach (which stops your stomach acids dissolving your stomach) and excretes an enzyme which reduces the acidity of it's local environment. They live quite happily in your tummy, and incidentally also cause peptic ulcers (the bastards).
 
 
Axolotl
10:56 / 28.04.06
But are any of those stomach-surviving bacteria the friendly kind? Helicobacter Pylori doesn't sound very friendly.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:26 / 28.04.06
Oh yeah. Kind of shot myself in the foot with that one. Thanks for pointing it out Phox.

Well Lactobacillus is commonly found in the gut flora. As you can see from the wiki, it discourages other micro-organisms by creating a more acidic environment. It's capable of surviving the journey through the stomach to reach the gut.
 
 
kim & mik
14:06 / 29.04.06
speaking as someone who suffers from severe candida and wouldn't be able to get out of bed without a daily pro-biotic supplement, i can attest that they do actually work and help millions of people like myself every day. The BMA and the AMA have vested interests in slinging shit at any alternative medicine that does seem to be efficacious and their unfounded claims are usually then pounced on by the media. In the case of pro-biotics, the problems they alleviate are usually caused by the ignorant over-prescription of nasty allopathic crap such as steroids and antibiotics by lazy generalist GPs. Far better if they instead invested some serious money in researching why a great number of alternative treatments do work and started using them.

Standard mainstream science makes the mistake far too often of denying the effectiveness of treatments, often used successfully for thousands of years, just because mainstream science hasn't yet thoroughly investigated them. It's sad to see people jump on either a yay or nay bandwagon without any actual knowledge or research.
 
 
Axolotl
10:55 / 30.04.06
Could I ask what sort of pro-biotic supplement you take?
It's just that a lot of the scepticism isn't to do with the benefits of pro-biotics - Quantum points out the potential benefits of yoghurt - but the heavily marketed "supplements" that claim an awful lot without providing an awful lot of evidence.
 
 
grant
11:28 / 30.04.06
I'm still in China, where you (I, I suppose, although I suspect it applies to locals, too, since the signs are in Chinese and English in the hotel rooms) can't drink the tap water without boiling it first.

Pro-biotics are one of the things I can recognize on the supermarket shelves. I've really only seen big packages in the baby food department, but a lot of live yogurt gets eaten here, too -- it's the only dairy I've been able to find in most groceries.

I think that's probably significant, although whether it's really biological or just (haw haw) cultural, I'm not sure. It definitely *seems* to go down easier than cheese or cream-in-coffee. Oh, and it's a drink here, not a thing most people eat with a spoon.

I suspect the emphasis on runny (live culture) yogurt is related to the contamination of tap water and the easy access to antibiotics. (They're OTC here -- I think even something as strong as Cipro.) But I haven't got any proof.

Oh, and when I was on Cipro, I credited capsules filled with some bug called L. reuterii with keeping my digestive tract in shape. I liked the name, mainly, since it was a media-related thing to start with (anthrax in the newsroom, of course we go for reuters).

Actually, I'm kind of curious -- do most "bad" gut bacteria get some kind of advantage out of what they do? It seems like explosive diarrhea would work against the bacteria's advantage. Something like giardia likes spreading that way, I suppose...bacteria?
 
 
kim & mik
12:18 / 30.04.06
I use Biocare Bio-acidopholis forte
 
 
kim & mik
13:41 / 30.04.06
http://www.biocare.co.uk/ProductDetails.aspx?prodCode=16130

i would dearly love for this product to be available on prescription.

The last time I visited my NHS gastroenterologist, over three years ago, after getting the results back from supposedly having had every single test possible, he shrugged his shoulders and told me that about 50% of people with chronic stomach pain are never diagnosed. His advice for the fact that i was increasingly becoming intolerant to virtually every foodstuff known to man was to simply not eat the things that gave me a bad reaction. And with that he washed his hands of the matter.

The rate of allergies and intolerances experienced by people in the modern world is on an exponential curve upwards. Why is this happening? nothing to do with those aforementioned medicines? whether we get them from our GPs or from the hormone and antibiotic injected livestock and chemically sprayed vegetables we eat, these substances have ubiquitously entered our food chain and are quite possibly permanently damaging the immune systems of a large chunk of the population. I posit that it is they that haven't been rigorously tested. not over generations anyway. that's not to mention the antibiotic related problem of the constantly mutating superbugs we find in our hospitals.

sure. marketing sells stuff. that doesn't mean the stuff doesn't work. do you think the sort of people who go in for more alternative forms of treatment are so dumb that the only reason they buy this stuff is because it is well marketed? in fact I think you'll find that a sizeable proportion of them have been abandoned with conditions that dont respond to the sort of sledgehammer in a pill remedy normally prescribed by conventional practitioners. of course there is also a considerable population who merely want to increase their wellbeing by supplementing what is missing from our quite frankly poisonous modern diets. is there anything wrong with that either?
 
 
Tom Coates
19:48 / 30.04.06
I seem to know an increasing number of people who have (or claim to have) some form of Candida overgrowth. I'd be really interested to know why this might be the case.
 
 
Saturn's nod
21:09 / 30.04.06
As I understand it, the ecological origin of antibiotics is as part of the competitive interactions in soil and other environments with many kinds of organisms present. Most clinical antibiotics come originally from organisms of the Streptomyces genus, filamentous bacteria with a detritivore role. Bacteria and fungi are in some ways competitors for similar niches - I believe clearing fungi from a niche will help bacteria colonise, and vice versa: some Penicillium moulds kill bacteria, some Streptomyces produce UK-2 antifungals. I personally think that's why fungal infections are problematic following antibiotic reduction of eubacterial flora.

Earlier in the history of clinical antibiotic use (which is, as has been pointed out, very short) anti-fungals such as nystatin were routinely prescribed alongside antibiotics to reduce the risk of fungal infections. This practice was discontinued as I understand it because of worries about selecting for resistant fungi, but the problem hasn't gone away, as has been mentioned with soaring rates of Candida infection. Harmful forms of Candida are difficult to distinguish from the extremely common and harmless form.

The personal ecology (I'm using this to describe the relationship between a human body and the many organisms than live on and in it?) of humans is poorly understood by scientists at present, but the beginnings of a scientific personal ecology of humans are showing. There was a great paper in Plos Biology earlier this year showing that most of the viruses in human gut systems are plant viruses. Totally unexpected! And it reveals the level of scientific ignorance. It's known that the interactions between bacterial flora and the immune system are complicated. The biology of fungi is still not well-understood either - my understanding of the details of the molecular biology of Candida albicans is a few years old, but certainly at that stage it was not clear why or even really how it switches from a harmless commensal to a harmful invader of tissues.

Dr Joseph Mercola has some stuff about antibiotics & problems with their use here. It doesn't have the same weight to me as seeing those findings in primary research papers - as far as I know the experiments have not been done yet - but it seems to me to make a lot of sense.
 
 
kim & mik
10:01 / 01.05.06
thanks for that post Saturn's nod, very informative.

one of the most frustrating things about having candida overgrowth is that in this country, for example, the BMA denies that it exists. If they were to admit the condition was not only a reality but prevalent, they would then have to admit that in some way they were culpable. far easier to deny for now. Plenty of research has been done, mainly in America, that clearly finds, as Saturn's nod points to above, that there is a mutated strain of the common candida albicans yeast that is pathogenic. This research has just not filtered through or been allowed to filter through. meanwhile, confronting your GP and even colleagues, friends or family with your condition often leaves you in the position where you are met with the glib, undermining statement that there is no such thing.

believe me there is such a thing and i wouldn't wish it on anyone.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:49 / 02.05.06
The BMA and the AMA have vested interests in slinging shit at any alternative medicine that does seem to be efficacious and their unfounded claims are usually then pounced on by the media. In the case of pro-biotics, the problems they alleviate are usually caused by the ignorant over-prescription of nasty allopathic crap such as steroids and antibiotics by lazy generalist GPs. Far better if they instead invested some serious money in researching why a great number of alternative treatments do work and started using them.

A few points here Kim and Lik.

Personally I'd hesitate to put all forms of probiotic treatment under the umbrella term of "alternative medicine". As the wiki entry points out, they have been used in the mainstream for decades to treat ailments such as candida and also to help replenish gut flora lost by, as you point out, intensive corticosteroid therapy or a course of antibiotics (as well as diarrhoea).

(Also, in what way are these drugs "nasty" and "crap"? The side-effects can, in intensive therapies, be unpleasant admittedly but they're extremely effective at treating a wide variety of serious medical conditions.)

Standard mainstream science makes the mistake far too often of denying the effectiveness of treatments, often used successfully for thousands of years, just because mainstream science hasn't yet thoroughly investigated them. It's sad to see people jump on either a yay or nay bandwagon without any actual knowledge or research.

Except for all of those alternative treatments that have been thoroughly investigated and have been shown to be utterly useless (placebo effect notwithstanding). I don't think it's unreasonably for a treatment to be demonstratably effective under test conditions before it's adopted by medical practitioners rather than blindly using treatments that only have anecdotal evidence backing them up.

To bring that point round to probiotics. As I said above, there is no question that they can be effective treatments for some medical complaints. What there is a question mark hanging over is whether or not taking them when there is no problem provides a person with any actual advantage (such as reducing blood pressure, enhancing the immune system, etc).

Oh, and when I was on Cipro, I credited capsules filled with some bug called L. reuterii with keeping my digestive tract in shape.

That gets around the barrier presented by the stomach (presuming they're capsules of the time-release variety and don't just dissolve on entering the stomach).

Actually, I'm kind of curious -- do most "bad" gut bacteria get some kind of advantage out of what they do? It seems like explosive diarrhea would work against the bacteria's advantage. Something like giardia likes spreading that way, I suppose...bacteria?

Colonising an area where nutrients/temperature/pH are constant. It's pretty much all bacteria need for a reason. The problem is normally with the toxins they produce (such as the verotoxin-producing E.coli 0157), or the damage they do to the GI system (macro-parasites such as tapeworm). Diarrhoea can be caused by the body trying to expel toxic matter (sort of like vomiting).
 
 
Quantum
18:43 / 02.05.06
Holy shit, I saw a snip of an advert for one of these on a pub TV, and it had a mum and a kid, then these CGI blue bubbles lining up like soldiers to repel the evil fireballs of Teh Evil Bacteria and protect little Timmy's tummy. You know what it looked like? An advert for hair products, the grandaddy of all pseudoscience marketing*.

To me, probiotic now equals pro-v, the mythical panacea vitamin that sews split ends shut and keeps the hair silky and smooth. MADE UP FRIENDLY BACTERIA! I CALL SHENANIGANS!

*beaten only by toothpaste and washing powder, and of course Nur*fen, Ibuprofen at ten times the price but in a silver box! Genius marketing! Don't get me started on the ratio of research to marketing funding in the pharmaceutical industry, did you know...***REMAINDER OF THIS POST EXCISED FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE DEAR READER, YOURS SINCERELY THE QUANTUM EDITING SUBROUTINE***
 
 
kim & mik
19:23 / 02.05.06
point taken about antibiotics. they can be of great benefit even if they're often over prescribed. i was posting emotionally. it's very hard for me not to get emotional when discussing this subject. unfortunately for me and many others, anti-biotics ARE nasty in that they've made us very ill. they have turned our hospitals into death traps too and that's not a problem that's going away overnight.

the NHS will not prescribe me pro-biotics which doesn't indicate any sort of acceptance i'm afraid. the doctors i spoke to scoffed at the suggestion.

can you point me to a list of alternative medicines that have been thoroughly tested and debunked along with any research? nothing sponsored by Pfizer or Glaxo Smith Kline please, they could be considered to have ulterior motives. i do know of a tiny handful of herbs that have had in depth analysis conducted by mainstream science with examples such as st johns wort and ginkgo biloba now clinically proven to be of great benefit.

I'm not arguing for every single supplement on the shelf btw, there are bound to be a few duds to go along with the duds fostered on us by the medical establishment. thalidomide springs to mind. i will argue that the duds are a tiny minority though and i doubt any of them are as spectacularly bad news as the aforementioned antiemetic. it's not like thorough research isn't done in alternative medicine, it's just not your peer reviewed 'Nature' kind of research and is thus not accepted by the establishment.

people all over the planet will continue to use what grows in their back gardens to help and cure some of the most severe illnesses we have. this wonderful knowledge has been passed down to us, yes, anecdotally, but these treatments have been rigidly tested in various communities over many lifetimes and those communities are as good a lab as anywhere with white coats as far as i'm concerned.

i'll state my point again, just because science hasn't clinically proven something is efficacious doesn't mean it doesn't work. i'm sorry but those who don't see or accept anything at all beyond what science has managed to describe under its own terms and conditions are missing out on the rest of the universe that science hasn't yet got round to analysing or hasn't yet developed the tools to be able to analyse. there is so much more out there as i think you'll find if you take that i-ching experiment i notice you've agreed to, to its natural conclusion.
 
 
kim & mik
19:26 / 02.05.06
cross post. that was intended for Evil Scientist.
 
 
Saturn's nod
19:51 / 02.05.06
With the explosive diarrhoea effect, perhaps that's been a successful strategy for maximizing the contribution of the pathogen to subsequent generations. Assuming the organism has had time to replicate a number of generations in the body, the diarrhoea then spreads it around? I guess whether that's the case depends on how well the cells survive in the wild and whether the pathogen has a broad host range. (Broad host range = the pathogen might be able to replicate in other organisms such as wildlife.)
 
 
Evil Scientist
20:47 / 02.05.06
anti-biotics ARE nasty in that they've made us very ill

I have to correct you there. It's the mis-use of antibiotics that have led to the rise of the resistant microbial strains currently plaguing hospitals worldwide. The habit of doctors to hand them out like sweeties for minor complaints. Antibiotics are still, generally, useful and effective treatments. It's poor handling and lack of understanding that have led to the lifespan of their usage being shortened.

the NHS will not prescribe me pro-biotics which doesn't indicate any sort of acceptance i'm afraid. the doctors i spoke to scoffed at the suggestion

Unfortunate, sounds like you might be served by changing Doctors, I would have thought they would at least proscribe you clotrimazole, a highly effective treatment for candida. Have you tried using live yoghurt? As a topical application it should be effective as a probiotic treatment.

This takes you to a site which supplies information on a wide variety of papers documenting research into alternative medicine. They are funded in part by some organisations you might consider to be against alternative medicine, but the site claims that the support does not come with strings attached. Of course, what you choose to believe is up to you.

thalidomide springs to mind

Not a dud actually. Currently in use as a treatment for leperosy and multiple myeloma. Also happens to be a nasty teratogenic of course, but there are quite a few treatments which shouldn't be administered to a pregnant woman (roaccutane, the acne treatment, springs to mind).

i will argue that the duds are a tiny minority though and i doubt any of them are as spectacularly bad news as the aforementioned antiemetic

Sorry, but you can't argue that. You have no idea how many are duds and how many are actually effective. Because you have no evidence to prove it one way or another. A treatment that does nothing is as harmful as a drug that causes birth defects if the upshot is the patient is not getting any treatment.

it's not like thorough research isn't done in alternative medicine, it's just not your peer reviewed 'Nature' kind of research and is thus not accepted by the establishment.

I beg to differ and I refer you to the link. The problem with the positive research is that it is often based on faulty scientific principles, and draws conclusions where there are none.

i'm sorry but those who don't see or accept anything at all beyond what science has managed to describe under its own terms and conditions are missing out on the rest of the universe that science hasn't yet got round to analysing or hasn't yet developed the tools to be able to analyse.

If alternative medicine works then it should be possible for it to work under the same stringent test conditions as mainstream medicine. A double-blind experimental group with adequate controls isn't going to magically stop an effective treatment working, is it?

there is so much more out there as i think you'll find if you take that i-ching experiment i notice you've agreed to, to its natural conclusion.

Currently seeing it as little more than an effective tool for interrogating the unconcious. Nothing mystical about it.
 
 
Quantum
13:13 / 03.05.06
Let's start or bump a thread on the efficacy of aternative medicines, there was one in the convo but a Lab thread is needed I think.
I'm all for alternative medicines, and I do think a lot of potential treatments are ignored for commercial reasons, and a lot of research is never funded, and megapharms are evil and all, but the idea of the single minded soulless automaton scientist in his white coat with test tubes crushing the creative spirit out of medicine is simplistic at best. And it's all too common, check out the Temple.

Kim & miK - probiotic supplements worked for you, great, and they're useful for lots of people. I'm not saying they don't work, just that they are no better than live yoghurt, and have almost no benefits if you're healthy. What I object to is the projection of them as a panacea that cures all ills, and the way they're aggressively marketed playing on people's fears.


an effective tool for interrogating the unconcious

That sounds like something mystic to me... if I were in the temple, sorry, never mind.
 
 
kim & mik
16:50 / 03.05.06
yogurt only helps lesson symptoms of severe candida whereas these new developed strains of pro-biotic, along with other stuff, pretty much keep it under control. i have a severe intolerance to yogurt these days anyway. it's not just thrush we're talking about here, just so you know, symptoms of severe candida include:

'an incapacitating fatigue and problems with concentration and short-term memory, flu-like symptoms such as pain in the joints and muscle, extreme tightness in the shoulders and neck, hyper-acidity/acid reflux, brown colored mucus in the back of the throat, blisters in the mouth/tongue/throat, either white or "blood blisters," unrefreshing sleep, sore throat, white coated tongue, dark circles under the eyes, an aversion to being touched or jumping, "crawling" skin, chronic sinus problems and headaches including migraines, chronic dental problems.

Visual disturbances may include blurring, sensitivity to light and eye pain.

Psychological problems may include depression, irritability, anxiety, panic attacks, recurring obsessive thoughts, personality changes, and mood swings (irrational rage or crying for no reason - fear of talking to people, any kind of confrontation, isolation) or paranoia.

More of the physical symptoms may include chills and night sweats, shortness of breath, dizziness and balance problems, sensitivity to heat and/or cold, alcohol intolerance, gluten and/or casein intolerance, irregular heartbeat, irritable bowel, constipation and/or diarrhea, painful gas and abdominal bloating, low-grade fever or low body temperature, numbness, tingling and/or burning sensations in the face or extremities, dryness of the mouth and eyes, difficulty swallowing and projectile vomiting.

Also menstrual problems including PMS and endometriosis, recurrent yeast infections, recurrent ear infections, rashes and dry, flaking skin, eczema, dermatitis, acne, skin discoloration and/or blotchiness, dandruff, jock and rectal itching, chronic athlete's foot, chronic toenail and fingernail fungus, ringing in the ears (tinnitus), allergies and sensitivities to noise/sound, foods, odors, chemicals, anemia, weight changes without changes in diet, light-headedness, feeling in a fog, fainting, muscle twitching and muscle weakness, restless leg syndrome and low sex drive and/or numbness in the genital area.

These are only the symptoms most commonly reported and documented.'

quoted from a random candida web-site, google if you really want to know where from. i'd say i've personally had about 70% of the above symptoms throughout the nine years I've had this disease. the chronic pain and intolerance to pretty much everything apart from a few vegetables and meat (i used to be a vegetarian) are the probably the worst aspects. that doesn't mean the rest doesn't suck too. no offence but slapping some clotrimazole or yogurt between my legs will do absolutely nothing.

I do actually have it under control right now and I'm having fun in my life again at last but only because i saw a really good nutritionist who put me on a regime of several different supplements including strong pro-biotics. that's it, i'm not going to mention symptoms or woes again.

I looked at the site you linked to Evil Scientist and couldn't find anything obvious. could you link me to the actual papers?

thalidomide was aimed at pregnant women. the fact that the pharmaceutical company is still trying to sell it decades later is staggering. they're either still trying to recover from the pr disaster by going 'look- useful after all' or it's an unavoidable by-product of some industrial process and they've decided to feed it to poor lepers in third world countries at a minor profit and as a means of disposal.

You have no idea how many are duds and how many are actually effective. Because you have no evidence to prove it one way or another. A treatment that does nothing is as harmful as a drug that causes birth defects if the upshot is the patient is not getting any treatment.

i've yet to see proof that any are duds. links and evidence please. i'm sure you can provide them. i'm curious.

you have me wrong if you think i'm not for double-blind experimentation. i am. i think it can be a fantastic tool for progressing humankind. one of the best we have. are you implying though, that only mainstream pharmaceutical companies use this method and all alternative researchers are using faulty scientific principles, and drawing conclusions where there are none.? if you are then that's sweeping and incorrect. again i ask you to prove it.

with the i-ching, try stretching yourself a bit. ask it how lots of mundane situations will turn out such as parties you're going to, meetings, job interviews etc and then see if its answers fit. when you have crossroad choices in your life try asking how each of the two possible paths will turn out and then choose the most favourable or as an experiment the least favourable. see how they work out.

the i-ching is perhaps too flexibly interpretable for a scientist. maybe tarot would have been more useful for you. with the tarot, for example, there's no doubt at all the ten of swords means you’re screwed.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:38 / 04.05.06
Kim, click on the "knowledge library" and go to complementary medicine. That should get you rolling.

With regards to clotrimazole, it can be taken in an oral form and courses of up to 6 months are not unknown. The probiotics you're using don't (from what you write) appear to be curing the condition, merely holding it in check. I would have thought that a course of anti-fungals would have been the next step.

Systemic fungal infections can, if untreated, be extremely nasty (something it sounds like you're well aware of). If your current doctor (GP or hospital?) isn't taking your condition seriously then you need to think about finding someone more ameanable, even if it means going further afield.

thalidomide was aimed at pregnant women. the fact that the pharmaceutical company is still trying to sell it decades later is staggering. they're either still trying to recover from the pr disaster by going 'look- useful after all' or it's an unavoidable by-product of some industrial process and they've decided to feed it to poor lepers in third world countries at a minor profit and as a means of disposal.

Evidence please? Rather than supposition.

The drug is extremely effective in the few areas it is used. It is not being sold over-the-counter, nor are there any plans to do so.

are you implying though, that only mainstream pharmaceutical companies use this method and all alternative researchers are using faulty scientific principles, and drawing conclusions where there are none.? if you are then that's sweeping and incorrect. again i ask you to prove it.

If you re-read what I said, you will see it says:

The problem with the positive research is that it is often based on faulty scientific principles, and draws conclusions where there are none.

Often, not always.

I have provided a link and directions to examples of scientific studies demonstrating flawed alternative therapies so perhaps you could provide us with the counter-evidence? It being Lab there is as much onus on you to prove your side of things as there is on me to prove mine, I'd be grateful if the evidence provided the names of the published papers so that I can google them and have a read.

I look forward to reading them.

(Happy to talk I Ching, but it might be better to do that in the relevant Temple thread).
 
 
kim & mik
10:58 / 04.05.06
i'm not going to have time to reply properly for a couple of days but i will come back to this.

there's a suitable divination thread just started in the temple for all things i-ching which we should both contribute to too. again in a couple of days.

i am taking anti-fungals too btw
 
 
kim & mik
09:08 / 07.05.06
thanks for the directions. i'd never of found the right place without them. finally had time to look properly this morning. i went to the herbal and supplements section as that is the area of research i am most interested in and is also the area we've been concentrating on in this thread. the first six tests, without exception, demonstrated positive results. I then selected a further two tests at random, both of which exhibited positive results too. i don't have time to look at any more at the moment but I think this demonstrates clearly, therefore, that you yourself have linked to the proof you asked for.

here's the page, herbs and supplements are towards the bottom.
 
 
kim & mik
09:25 / 07.05.06
I nearly forgot....could you point me to anywhere that clotrimazole is described as being used for systemic candida? i can only find it used topically or for oral infections. thanks.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:34 / 08.05.06
I nearly forgot....could you point me to anywhere that clotrimazole is described as being used for systemic candida?

I was actually just extrapolating from my knowledge of the drug (more formally known as "talking out of my arse", heh). Looking at the wiki for it I see that there are more effective anti-fungal agents which are used to treat a systemic infection.

I think I must have gotten a crossed wire. Checking on the the wiki for candida I notice that the systemic candida you refer to isn't quite what I thought it was. My understanding of systemic fungal infections is that they normally present themselves in immune-compromised/suppressed patients. However, the entry on alternative views on candidiasis mentions a different understanding of the term.

Googling for it I find a description over here.

It's a relatively unbiased description of the condition (although I'd appreciate hearing your view of it Kim). Systemic candidiasis seems to be an inaccurate description of the condition. From what I read here it is an allergic reaction to subclinical levels of the candida micro-organism.

If what's written here is accurate then a possible reason why the doctors are not taking it seriously is that there may have been a past tendency of alternative health professionals to diagnose it as the default problem of anyone who came into reporting anything like similar symptoms (Kim, your nutritionist might know if that's the case or not). Which might mean the doctors are letting personnal bias of alternative therapies affect their judgement by assuming that your nutritionist is mis-diagnosing you.

The link mentions that over-diagnosis of it has cooled off now. But that doctors still feel there is not enough medical evidence to confirm that the symptoms are occurring due to allergic reactions to normal levels of candia within the body, nor that suggested treatments would necessarily have benefit for all sufferers.

Interesting though. One would have thought that regular tests for allergic response would confirm or deny this, and that the condition could be treated with some form of anti-allergy medication.

Kim, any idea how your nutritionist diagnosed this? Were any tests performed by them or was it made purely on the symptoms?

I was going to ask whether any microbiological tests had been done. But obviously, considering that candida is part of normal body flora and that the illness is caused by it's presence at regular levels, that wouldn't show anything.
 
 
kim & mik
11:16 / 09.05.06
I've posted you a pm Evil Scientist, I don't want to discuss some of this publicly.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:29 / 09.05.06
I have answered.

Following on from that...

Given the nature of the PM I have recieved from the poster identifying as Kim & Mik I should like to make it clear that I do not believe systemic candia infections to be impossible outside of the immune compromised. Nor have I intended to suggest that. I did not believe the article linked to in my previous post to be biased against the condition but, respecting that the poster identifying as Kim and Mik might, asked for their opinion on it (which I got...kind of).
 
 
kim & mik
18:20 / 09.05.06
this article is most balanced one I can find right now.
 
 
Quantum
18:51 / 09.05.06
OK very quickly, I wanted to clarify to kim&mik my point that most people don't have candida or recalcitrant digestive problems or the other things probiotics are good for. I do not contest that probiotics have a place in medicine, I am not saying they don't work, I am not saying yoghurt is a sufficient alternative for severe symptoms (as you say some people are allergic, or find it ineffective etc).

But the little pots are being sold to everybody, as preventative measures and all-round health improvers, quite hard. And they have questionable benefits for a healthy person. I think it's like marketing epidurals as aspirin, or paracetamol as vitamins- an inappropriate application of the medicine. It's not the bacteria's fault they're being exploited by unscrupulous moneygrabbing bastards, but I hate the little pots.
I eat Gu instead and pretend it's got happy bugs in.
 
 
Quantum
18:48 / 23.05.06
Scientists build caramel-powered margarine-making fuel cell
"E. coli bacteria in a five litre vessel fermented run-off from nougat and caramel production lines to produce hydrogen. A second culture of Rhodobacter sphaeroides was added to increase the yield of the reaction."


Those handy bacteria are good for loads of things.
 
 
Ticker
15:38 / 24.05.06
I seem to know an increasing number of people who have (or claim to have) some form of Candida overgrowth. I'd be really interested to know why this might be the case.

In my case I can tell you I have correlated it with the aid of both white coats and green coats to source from:

1) over use of antibiotics in my youth.
(lot of strep as the Dame worked in hospital and was forever lugging it home)

2) Excessive consumption of sugar and my own body turning carbs into more sugar.

3) Excessive caffeine/alcohol also impacting my immune system and sugar levels.


I often had to take diflucan to rid myself of the overgrowth but it wasn't until I changed my diet drastically that my overall condition changed.

I do take a lot of the acidophilus daily in a liquid base one of my green coats makes. I can say for me the changes to my diet as suggested by the green coats have worked far better than the pills of the white coats. However I have used the judgment of my white coats to ensure that my green coats weren't advocating anything dangerous.

My current food is limited to dead animal, raw dairy, veggies of all kinds, and berries. No breads, rice is extremely limited, and chocolate is an act of pure rebellion. I try to stick to organic when I can. Wine seems fine in moderation.

Many other people I know who suffer from Candida overgrowth (who do not have auto-immune issues) have successfully resolved the issue after changing their diets. The pro biotics appear to aid in the digestion of the protein heavy food.

When I first switched over I had some 'plumbing' issues that my green coat adjusted with the aid of naturally fermented foods like kimchee.

My sister also has had the same experience with a different set of caretakers and we have often remarked that we are merely eating the diet of our great great grandparents to some extent.

It may not be all that amazing to learn from science in few years that some people just can't process the direct forms of sugar now available in our modern food.

Quantum about your yogurt disdain, I've always cringed when looking at those pots because most of them contain enough sugar to offset the benefits of the happy bacteria. My spouse buys some sort of candy yogurt that I have to overt my eyes from rather than rant about.
 
  

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