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Relationships, age-gaps, fine wines, and all that....

 
  

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08:58 / 27.04.06
I would have, but since that person was already on the receiving end of some inappropriate objectification and fetishization of their Asian ethnicity, I thought it might not exactly be my business.

Thanks, Haus. As usual, I value your thoughts.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:11 / 27.04.06
Ah. Yes. Belay that nad-punch. Nadpunch on me for being oversimplistic instead. Nad-punch party!
 
 
Quantum
09:22 / 27.04.06
Is everyone invited? Can I bring my own vim?? What sort of punch did you say there was?
 
 
Spaniel
10:22 / 27.04.06
I think Haus made a very good point in his last post.

I agree entirely that compatability is the key issue, but I think people should think long and hard about age differences and what they might mean for a relationship before taking such a relationship on.
It seems to me that there are questions of power and experience that may need to be looked at, especially when one member of a relationship is in their teens/early twenties and the other is considerably older, not because it's always going to be an issue, but because it's more likely to be (at least that's the way it seems to me).
In my own case the age difference between my partner and I hasn't been a big issue over the long-term, but needed to be grappled with early on. When we got together I was 28 and she was 35. The gap didn't make much difference in terms of our interests and general outlook (Brighton has a way of allowing people to stay young and spry), the only issue was her ticking body-clock - she wanted a child and I knew that by entering into a relationship with her I was taking that on. I knew that if we didn't work out, she might be left on the brink of menopause with no baby in sight, and I knew that if we did I would very likely become a father. Heavy stuff.
 
 
William Sack
10:29 / 27.04.06
Somehow missed out on your baby news Boboss. Congratulations, and hope things are going well for you, your partner and baby.

Strangely enough, my wife had lunch yesterday with a friend of ours who has just split with her partner of 8 or so years. They got together when she was mid 40s and he was early 20s. We haven't got the full story of the break-up, but his desire for children, and her inability to have them appear to have been a factor. So, to echo Boboss, straightfoward biology can have a bearing in some relationships.
 
 
Spaniel
11:02 / 27.04.06
Cheers, Will.
 
 
tectonic
12:15 / 27.04.06
Me: male, 37. She: female, 28, seven years into what looks like being a permanent situation. Mostly, this is good: she keeps me young, has energy, while I'm more cynical, better read, less willing to compromise. I'm not sure if she really gets what's deep inside of me, what makes me tick, what makes me fear for the future. But would someone older understand me better? Most women my age seem to be either breeding and hating it, or not breeding, and hating it.

...and the death thing: statistically, I'll die 18 years before her, and my family is, alas, not long-lived. This scares me. I don't want to let her down.

On the other hand, she's lovely, she's fun, and she's centred. With her, I am in the best physical and mental shape of my life, late-night drinking sessions notwithstanding. I think I'm lucky.
 
 
Quantum
12:33 / 27.04.06
You're only as young as the entity you feel, fnarr fnarr.
 
 
Cat Chant
13:53 / 29.04.06
Haus, your posts in this thread are making me annoyed because I strongly feel that you're using an adult/child paradigm as a lens through which to view all cross-age relationships - for example, your decontextualized 'boo trig!' post (WTF was that about? I don't think anyone on this thread has mentioned a single case in which one of the partners was school-age).

For another example:

I'm uncomfortable with the "no angel" argument, I have to say. It's perfectly probable that your dewy youth is a blithe lothario with healthy desires, of course, but heavily sexualised behaviour in teenagers is not necessarily just what it is, you know?

Here, I'm uncomfortable in general with the way you seem to be making an implicit argument that [id's] friend might be seen as a 'dewy youth' or a 'blithe lothario', but in fact he's a 'teenager'. You use that word a lot in your posts on this subject, and that's one of the specific things that makes me uncomfortable: 'teenager' covers over the six years of differences between a thirteen-year-old and a nineteen-year-old (almost as many years as those between [id] and the other person involved here - why not decide to elide the significance of those years instead?) I'm also uncomfortable with the phrase the "no angel" argument, seeing as how the phrase is, at least for me, most often associated with fuckwit judges like the one on this page:

We’ve also had a case in the UK where a judge decided to be lenient with a rapist because he said that the eight-year-old girl... was (and I quote) “no angel”

I'm not quite sure what work that intertext is supposed to be doing here, but it reads to me like another assimilation of this 26/18 relationship to an adult-child relationship, which, as I say, makes me angry.

One of the difficulties with cross-age is trying to find models that don't assume that parent/child (or sometimes teacher/student) is the only possible model for intergenerational relationships. Yes, Tangent is old enough to be my mother. That doesn't mean I'm a child. And okay, I was 25 when I met Tangent, not 18, but I still feel a bit personally implicated in the suggestion that wanting to have sex with someone older than yourself is likely to be a symptom of being all fucked up and whatnot. What you're calling 'heavily sexualized behaviour in teenagers' could just as easily be called 'the decision of an independently-living adult man to make a pass at someone eight years older than himself', which is in no way symptomatic of fuckedupiness.

Sorry, by the way, both to you, [id] entity, and to your friend for projecting onto your relationship and turning it into a site of conflict - obviously I'm not qualified to make any comment about it, since I've never met either of you, so I don't mean my remarks here to be taken as being advice or critique of the actual situation. Let me know if I'm bothering you, and I'll try and find another set of references for this conversation.
 
 
*
14:06 / 29.04.06
Can't respond too much to this right now, but Deva, your perspective is appreciated, as is Haus'.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
17:14 / 29.04.06
I'd like to pick up on something important Deva said about age difference possibly being crucial and of immense value. This doesn't mean that sleeping with people around the same age as you is less valuable, but in my experience it's really different.

I have felt like a student in my relationship: intellectually, and sometimes emotionally. A. has been an unofficial third supervisor for both of my academic theses: she reads almost everything I write, and she edits really closely. While this can be terrifying at times, she also pushes me to take my ideas to their limits, which no official academic supervisor would have time for, or would feel comfortable with. I tend to edit her work too, but there's a level at which I won't necessarily understand it, completely. It's taken me a long time to learn how to sit easily with this difference in our knowledges, and not feel inadequate or 'less than'. Now that I'm used to it, I feel really lucky and blessed. And I tend to do a bit more chopping wood and carrying water to sustain a karmic balance. We have really different sets of friends, which is another big difference from my previous relationships. That, also felt weird for a while but now I'm just used to it. We have very different taste in music and 'cultural' stuff, but this just means that sometimes we both learn more, and sometimes I go to concerts with other friends. Easy.

About the 'teenager' thing, and the concerns Haus brought up about adolescents not necessarily being in control of their sexuality, and not necessarily being totally sexually mature even if they act like it... (Is that what you meant, Haus?) From when I was about 13-19, I remember feeling bored witless by the emotional capabilities and interests of people my own age. Clumsy, inexperienced, obsessed with computer games or makeup and crap boy bands, self-absorbed, underdeveloped social skills. Most other adolescents seemed pretty undesirable at that point. Frankly, no-one my age seemed interested in sex in the particular way I was -- about diversity and exploration rather than just getting off. So boring! I wanted to meet someone older, more intelligent, more complex, who could teach me how to think and how to love and how to fuck. No-one over 18 actually took an interest, however. Once I did have sex with older people, I realised that most of them weren't any more mature; sometimes spectacularly less so. If someone had told me I was too young for them, at that point, I would have felt humiliated and mightily pissed off. It would have made everything worse. I absolutely loathed being classed as a teenager, found it discriminatory and undignified.

What I'm getting at is, just as adulthood is not a linear plane of development, that progresses along a set of definable stages in adulthood, neither is childhood or adolescence. Evidently there are adolescents who, by force of experience or coincidence, end up feeling way more adult and emotionally mature than adolescents are expected to be. With that may come more 'mature' or complex desires. If you tell them it's inappropriate to meet those desires with the kind of people who might know the most about them, and/or play a role in exploring them, those adolescents may feel as if their autonomy was not being respected. And they'd be right.

(I'm not saying that there isn't an issue with intergenerational sex and the possible destructive power dynamics thereof. I'm just being relentlessly Foucauldian: no form of power is entirely repressive, or entirely 'bad'; no form, either, is entirely 'good' or productive. If intergenerational sex has destructive elements, then it must also have positive ones. -- To simplify the fuck out of Foucault, who would turn in his grave if he read this.)
 
 
Whisky Priestess
14:50 / 01.05.06
I'm with Deva in regard to her pointing up the rather negative assumptions/suggestions made by Haus about the age-gap relationships described earlier.

My biggest age-gap relationship was with someone who was 34 years older than myself, and really, although people constantly expressed astonishment that I could find someone that much my senior attractive (having not met him, I hasten to add), I can say hand on heart that I didn't enter into it through some desire for a father - or even grandfather, ha! - figure. Not that there's anything wrong, as others have pointed out, with wanting to be with someone older, more experienced, more mature etc.

It worked pretty well (until I started sleeping with a 22-year-old behind his back) due to a number of factors:

1) It's far more culturally common/acceptable to see a younger woman/older man pairing. I daren't imagine the sort of looks we'd have got if the gap had been the other way around.

2) He was very good-looking (hence I was 'allowed' to find this obviously older man attractive and, as a couple, we didn't provoke that prurient 'normal age-gap relationship or businessman and prostitute?' reaction ... that I know of )

3) He looked a lot younger than he was (my housemates thought he was in his 30s) hence the apparent gap was only about 15 years.

It was great for me because, as a student, I felt less guilty about occasionally being taken out to dinner, bought drinks etc. because he was obviously better off than I was. He was also a professional in a field in which I was very interested, and so we had a lot of shared interest in/knowledge of books, music, theatre etc. BUT we also had some very different references and areas of expertise - we we were both pretty well-read but he was self-taught way and I'd just finished an English degree, so we had different experiences of and approaches to literature.

It's a cliche but I think he did teach me a lot about various things, and that was great for me at the time.
Also, he had a mental age of about 25 so we were quite well-matched in that regard, too.
 
 
Mmothra
20:15 / 01.05.06
Well, my partner and I have a 28 year gap between us. It does create embarrassment for him at times...explaining in Istanbul that we wanted ONE BED rather than two and deflecting "Oh, are you father and son?" comments.

On the whole, however, this relationship is a delicious ride. We have been together 12 years now (when we met I was 27 and he was 55) and are still going strong.

The issue of his entering the bardo first is a big issue for me, especially after enduring a couple of major health scares over the past few years (he's fine now, thanks). I have not come up with any super-evolved and mature responses...I just cry and get it out of my system until the next time.

Mark
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:29 / 01.05.06
Deva: Points well taken. However:

(WTF was that about? I don't think anyone on this thread has mentioned a single case in which one of the partners was school-age).

I was at school at 18, so I must respectfully disagree.

Otherwise - hoom. I think the trig gag was indeed frivolous and irresponsible, and wish to dissociate myself from whatever demon was possessing me when I made it. Apologies to all. However, I think your reading:

Here, I'm uncomfortable in general with the way you seem to be making an implicit argument that [id's] friend might be seen as a 'dewy youth' or a 'blithe lothario', but in fact he's a 'teenager'.

(and I hate it when people do this, so I apologise in advance) might have more to do with your thoughts on this matter than mine. I at no point used the words "be seen" or "in fact". I said that it was perfectly probable that the dewy youth (no seeming there at all) was a blithe lothario with healthy desires. Criticise the choice of words, of course - and a very good spot on "no angel" - but keep an eye on the meaning. I then went on to say that there was also a possibility that "he will probably break my heart, not I his/he is more experienced than I am" arguments have been advanced to avoid looking at other power dynamics which might function in a relationship between an older man and a younger man. I don't know how much that is functioning here, and I don't think I ever claimed that I did - however, id's first post talked about what other people said about him: according to several sources. The younger man in question was given no voice; the effect of the relationship on him was a subject of speculation by others. This is corrected subsequently.

So, no. I don't think I am constructing any such implicit argument. Nor do I think that I am entirely out of line for describing an 18-year old as a teenager, although you are quite right that one could as well describe him and id alike as "legal adults". What I was doing was noting that it is often the case that acting on desire for people acting on desire for whom is complicated practically or conceptually (in this case, id's words not mine, because such action would until very recently have been illegal) can be made a special case by the introduction of the grounds that they, specifically have some level of maturity, sexual or emotional, that makes this particular instance exceptional - which may well be true, of course, but can also stand in for looking properly at whether the person is actually exceptional or whether this analysis is being driven by a desire to find them exceptional to avoid other thorny issues. It was this tendency that I was warning against, and true to form id came back with a look at who the potential inamorato was, rather than what people said the inamorato was proof against.

I've done this myself, with a smaller age gap - believing that somebody who was about the same age as id's case was very mature, both emotionally and sexually, because I had plans that required emotional and sexual maturity. Whether that was the case, or the case in quite the way I thought it was, remains obscure. On the other hand, I have been involved with older people (a larger age gap than id's, in a few cases) in situations where I was very definitely the aggressor (or pursuer, perhaps), and the other party the pursued, so my attitudes may be skewed by those experiences.
 
 
*
23:49 / 01.05.06
What I was doing was noting that it is often the case that acting on desire for people acting on desire for whom is complicated practically or conceptually (in this case, id's words not mine, because such action would until very recently have been illegal) on the grounds that they, specifically have some level of maturity, sexual or emotional, that makes this particular instance exceptional. It was this tendency that I was warning against, and true to form id came back with a look at who the potential inamorato was, rather than what people said the inamorato was proof against.

Points taken. I presented my views on the inamorato's character, essentially, in an effort to reflect about how the power dynamic might affect him personally. I've spoken with him about the issue, but his sense that he is not disadvantaged by our age difference may be considered suspect. Regardless, yes, it's a theme in my life right now that I need to focus more on behavior and less on individuals/personalities.

In a few days, I'd like to come back to this thread. At this moment, however, I'm not in a good place to consider objectively whether I'm doing harm or not, and since I'd like to be able to be self-critical when I discuss this I would prefer to leave it until I feel more centered. (I also have firm intent to go no further until I can do that vital self-reflection.)
 
 
*
23:56 / 01.05.06
On the other hand, I have been involved with older people (a larger age gap than id's, in a few cases) in situations where I was very definitely the aggressor (or pursuer, perhaps), and the other party the pursued, so my attitudes may be skewed by those experiences.

At the risk of compromising my newly stated intention, or perhaps affirming my likely tendency to be a bit defensive just now, I should mention that I had no plans for this person— I did not even think of him as a potential sex partner— until he grabbed me and started kissing me at the party. Since then I have seen myself as following his lead, but in the next few days I intend to take a still more passive attitude, in case following is seen as pursuing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:14 / 02.05.06
MD:

About the 'teenager' thing, and the concerns Haus brought up about adolescents not necessarily being in control of their sexuality, and not necessarily being totally sexually mature even if they act like it... (Is that what you meant, Haus?)

To a degree, yes (although I'd extend that well past adolescents) - I mean, my experience of older people telling me that they were attracted to me but did not want to have sex with me because of a gap in age or experience was to argue strenuously that my youth did not matter, and therefore that if that was the only reason not to have sex with me, we should definitely make with the sex. In some situations I was probably largely right, in others probably largely wrong, but it's pretty hard to tell at the time because you are kind of in the moment.

Of course, as you say, no form of power is totally repressive, and unwise sexual encounters can also be very hot, very useful, and indeed in retrospect very wise indeed, as you exchange anniversary presents in your flying car two decades hence. And, pace Deva, my initial ambivalence was not that the inamorato was saying "I want to do this thing" (we didn't get that until id's second post), but that other people were saying "doing this thing will not have negative consequences for the inamorato". Any relationship of any significant depth has risks, and the acknowledgement of those risks - to both parties - strikes me as a good starting place.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:15 / 02.05.06
Ah, sorry - crosspost. Will be silent.
 
 
*
00:32 / 02.05.06
No need, as I pm'ed you.

Stepping back for real now.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
05:53 / 02.05.06
How did I miss this thread?

My last boyfriend (manfriend at this age?) was 32 years older than I. When we met I was 27 and he was 59; he thought I was older; I thought he was younger. He's older than my dad.

The relationship lasted for about a year and was really great in a lot of ways... the weirdest thing was possibly that his son was my age, and he and his son would fight on the phone every day, but I could sort of see the son's position on a lot of things. Occasionally we ran into differences in opinion that I thought were clearly generational (our rhetoric in certain arguments, like whether homosexuality is ok for instance, sounded like we'd each borrowed from the public media material available when we were in our early twenties).

Eventually, though, I ran into a big block with the relationship and ended it. The problem was that I eventually want to get married and I want children. I kept thinking if I marry this guy, statistically he could need care or be dead by the time I was forty and my kid was a teenager. Some pragmatic part of me refused to allow me to fall in love with him because of the fear of being alone later (or sooner rather than later).

So yeah, age did make a difference. But it was still fun to hold hands in public; and in the rest of the relationship it wasn't an issue at all. The current flame of my heart is ten years my senior and by my standards I count him as being pretty much my age.
 
 
penitentvandal
07:36 / 02.05.06
I don't really think it matters. Pinky, my fiancee is thirteen years older than I am and we're getting married in August. The age thing was kind of a problem with the relationship in the early days, but now we barely notice it, to be honest.

Mind you, even the most cursory glance at my relationship history would reveal that I tend to go for older partners anyway. Indeed, the only time I had a younger girlfriend was a complete disaster, though I contend that was more due to differences in personality than age, what with her being a card-carrying Methodist and me being a drug-fuelled, devil-may-care chaos magician and all.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:09 / 02.05.06
It occurs to me also that I'm looking at this from a specific sort of power exchange - that is, the power exchange between a university-educated, middle-class white chap and the other. In which terms, possibly my expectation of the level of care, or the expectation of the system being open to abuse, is necessarily out of whack, because I am thinking in terms of disparities of power which rely on a particular situation pertaining. Even within those parameters, of course, variation extends towards infinity...
 
 
Disco is My Class War
10:53 / 02.05.06
Haus -

Any relationship of any significant depth has risks, and the acknowledgement of those risks - to both parties - strikes me as a good starting place.

Absolutely.

I do feel, though, that acting as if one has all the power in a relationship, and therefore must 'make the hard decision' about whether it's appropriate or inappropriate, can actually make the other person totally powerless. Although one feels that one is acting for the other person's next interests, it smacks of hubris to think one knows what the other's best interests are. (Even when the other is 18.)

(I have been reading The Well of Loneliness and feeling Very Angry with Stephen Gordon for precisely this reason this week, however. She, of course, feels that ending her relationship with Mary is 'saving Mary' from her inverted clutches, and giving the chance at 'real happiness'. But really, it's just about saving herself from the risk of being in love. Perhaps this week I'm a bit biased.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:51 / 02.05.06
To be honest, it smacks of hubris to suppose that one has a clear picture of one's own self-interest, much less anyone else's. I agree entirely that it can be disempowering to be rejected because of the other party's decision that you are some value of too young. Mind you, it's disempowering to be rejected for any reason, really. So, that's tricky. It comes back, I think, to trying to subject your own reasons to the most comprehensive and comprehensible critique you reasonably can, and to apply that interrogated understanding to trying to minimise harm to yourself and others. That applies to all sorts of things and all sorts of factors, however, of which differentials in age are just one - and then there's Ex's factoring-in of developmental stages - there is a general assumption that the older partner will be the one with the social and financial power, but this, I think, is also fallacious, or more precisely it is an invitation to assume things that may be fallacious. So, I think I'm aiming for a critical engagement with the particular circumstances of any potential relationship, of which difference or similarity in age is a part, along with life experience, wealth, geography, politics and so on. Having said which, I'm not an external observer in this, being both someone with experience of age-variant relationships asa participant and as an observer, and so there's a kind of meta-obligation to try to be aware of how that might affect my viewpoint (or the way I express it) - like being aware of a similar effect caused by reading The Well of Loneliness, I guess.
 
 
Cat Chant
12:20 / 02.05.06
acting as if one has all the power in a relationship, and therefore must 'make the hard decision' about whether it's appropriate or inappropriate, can actually make the other person totally powerless

Testify, Mister Disco! Thanks for your posts/clarifications, Haus!

I'm loving the new page of this thread.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
13:27 / 02.05.06
Me: 24
She: 32
Met on Flickr, currently transatlantic. Which sucks awesomely. I flew over to see her last September, and she spent six weeks here in London with me in January. I'm not massively conscious of the age gap, and I think for an average 24 year old I've been a fair few places and done a fair few things, meaning life experience wise we're not in some kind of dewy youth versus hardened veteran deal. One of the nicest things she said to me though was that I was young enough not to have turned into a bitter old batchelor, and she's been with enough arseholes to finally recognise a good thing when she sees it, so in that regard, we're perfect for each other. Obviously there's been a few nudge nudge, wink wink comments from folk about older women, but to be honest I've never met anyone who gets me so completely, and 99% of the time, I'm completely unaware of the age gap. I think when we're eventually together on a more regular basis, her strong awareness of the age difference should hopefully fade a bit. We're close enough that we share a lot of cultural identifiers (bands, kids tv and the like) but far enough apart to have some different viewpoints and make for interesting discussion!
 
 
Disco is My Class War
16:22 / 02.05.06
I guess every situation is different, with a different set of variables that make it all quite specific. And we all have different experienecs we bring to this thread, which I value.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
20:35 / 02.05.06
I will know I am old when I start fancying younger men.

(Although, to be fair, my ex was 6 days my junior. Cradlesnatcher moi!)
 
 
penitentvandal
07:52 / 03.05.06
You see I actually tend to fancy older women (cheers for that, Ms Donohoe), so I sort of wonder what's going to happen with that when I get older. Will I be fancying people with skin hanging off them, or will I still be perving on younger women than me, just women who are only twenty as opposed to forty years younger? We shall see.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
22:53 / 04.05.06
Maybe there's a Platonic Age of Woman to which you will always be drawn, no matter how old you are?
 
 
Shrug
23:38 / 04.05.06
VV, do you think it boils down to an aesthetic attraction for a particular age or is it more about a certain dynamic you obtain from having an older partner?
 
 
*
00:41 / 04.07.06
I'm amused to see myself agonizing in this thread about the relationship with the Young Man, especially since nothing ever happened with him and I'm now in a BDSM relationship with someone signifcantly older than myself. It's new, but it's a really good feeling.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
09:43 / 04.07.06
Are all realtionships about some kind of power exchange or just the ones were there is a significant age gap?

I'm 32 years old and have recently had a brush with younger women 10 or so years younger than me. Whilst I'm neither particularly mature (few responsibilities) or desperate to settle down the thought of going out with someone that age and breaking up 4 or 5 years down the line and having to start all over again (I hate dating with a fiery passion) scares the shit out of me. This is doubtless the wrong attitude, it's definitely brough on by insecurity but the feeling is still there.

In my peer group the women of my age, even ones that I definitely did not expect it from seem to have been overwhelmed by a need to settle down and in many cases have families and as such are developing criteria for prospective partners based on long term security. I guess this is understandable to an extent if you've wasted years on wastrels but still...

I have also seen the age gap/power equasion heavily abused and used to control the younger partner in a deeply unpleasant way.

In no way am I setting any of the above up as absolutes just things I have witnessed or experienced. I guess my opinion is it depends on what stage people are at in their life. With the best intentions in the world there has to be some kind of middle ground for what you both are looking to accomplish in the relationship and life in general.
 
  

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