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No sex please, we're Barbelith

  
  

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*
19:07 / 24.04.06
Jack, actually, I think I understood you pretty well (and I'm not even drunk or hungover).
 
 
Jack Denfeld
19:08 / 24.04.06
Who, me?
 
 
Jack Vincennes
20:00 / 24.04.06
'tis I, Denfeld.

Steve Weaving: is there anything else you're similarly reluctant to discuss? What's so special about your genetalia?

Oh, very much so, in answer to the first. I've been thinking about this all day, and really I don't like to share overly much about my life with many people at all, so I'm probably starting this one from a slightly more uptight point of view than many people would be in the first place.

Another issue is, I suppose, that I've been looking at this in terms of 'what you do', assuming that the aspect of one's sex life one wouldn't want people to know about would be the more exotic end of that particular spectrum. But I don't know that telling one's friends it's all been pretty vanilla for the last few months, really, and that one has not been making much of an effort would be any easier.
 
 
Smoothly
00:36 / 25.04.06
Is there anything else you're similarly reluctant to discuss?

Oh, very much so.

Forgive me for asking, but what kinds of things? What you enjoy on TV, what sports you play, the kinds of thing you like to cook, what god you pray to, how you vote? I hope that doesn't sound rhetorical - I'm genuinely trying to get a handle on what sex is similar to / different from.

On the relevance of the degree of exoticism, I share your uncertainty. On the grand scheme, my sexual preferences are pretty vanilla, but if they were more tutti-frutti, I don't know if that would make me more or less inclined to divulge. On my own personal spectrum, I probably talk more about the more risque elements, but probably because there's less to say about the more run-of-the-mill aspects, and it's just less interesting in the main. But then if I had desires that I thought were immoral I'd probably shut up about that too (or at least far more selective about the company I discussed it in).

But I think this might be a bit of a red herring. I don't get the impression from this thread, or my RL experience, that there's any correlation between a person's willingness to talk about this stuff and the relative kinkiness of the content. In fact, I can't identify any pattern or common denominator for those who do and those who don't. Which is one of the reasons I brought it up for discussion here, and why I'm pressing people for more context about what other things they do and don't like to talk about.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:45 / 25.04.06
Another issue is, I suppose, that I've been looking at this in terms of 'what you do'

Uh huh, I've been trying to write that sentence over the last couple of days! Along with the rather flippant but wouldn't you rather be engaging in the act rather than incessantly talking about it but that's a rather aggressive line to take so back to Vincennes neat sentence...

There's something here that immediately comes out of 'what you do' and that's how much detail is included. BDSM for example can mean any number of acts grouped under the heading, as can vanilla and there's a line somewhere, an individual one certainly, but a line between disclosure and over-sharing that is drawn between elusion to activities and description of them.

Personally I find that line unimportant and I don't think it's anything to do with squirming uncomfortably, I think it's that I don't care about anyone else's sex life unless I'm involved in it. Isn't it tedious to hear about sex when it's not your sex? I find it a bit shameful when people come out with bad sex stories because I always feel like there's a misinterpretation of what went wrong going on- as if the person describing it is unaware that it was incompatibility that was the issue. If someone has good sex stories then, well, I'm glad they enjoyed themselves but how is it significant? People with strong political views are saying something significant because they could vote that way. Someone telling me about a film they liked or hated is offering up a recommendation. If a person is describing their sex life then I can't engage with it because 1)I probably won't have the opportunity to try it and 2)it won't mean anything to me because I probably won't experience the same things. There's a good chance I don't function in the same way in bed. I find that sex is only really tantalising to me when it's meant for me in some way- perhaps I'm weird but it's not weird for me, I feel the same way when people talk about curry, I'll listen but it's not holding that much absolute meaning.
 
 
diz
06:09 / 26.04.06
Oh, no, I love hearing other people's good sex stories. I find it fascinating to see what makes them tick in that context and I think it offers a lot of insight into the rest of their psyches. As long as someone isn't doing it in a skeevy way (trying to brag and impress people, that sort of thing), I love hearing about it.

It's talking about my own end of things that can make me feel uncomfortable, depending on what sorts of things are being disclosed and so on and so forth. Which, of course, makes me a big screaming hypocrite, but such is life.
 
 
Ex
08:04 / 26.04.06
But if there were no taboo, there'd be no incentive for people to say that kind of thing, because they wouldn't get the rewarding blush/annoyed reaction from you. If there were no taboo, it wouldn't be any more annoying to have people ask "So how was the strap-on experiment last night?" than to have them ask "How did the birthday dinner go?"

Thinking about non-normative sex (kinky, ridiculous, roleplay where Kirk is an ocelot): do you reckon that talking about sex actally lessens the taboo? I did, for a long time, and was quite public about a lot of sex things. It was part of the coming out philosophy, that if everyone knew someone who did, it wouldn't be a bad thing any more.

But I found that if I randomly mention a sex act, I don't have time to sit every single person down and explain to them why it's not Wrong, what pleasing effects it has, what path has brought me to it, what a startlingly large number of people already do it, and so forth.
All that happens is that I get popped into their 'freaky bollocks' box. I can spend the rest of the evening trying to climb out of it, but I can't usually bring the sex act with me. It has to stay in the box.

Without wanting to go too Head Shop, I think it's the difference between a liberation argument - 'Society represses talk about sex, and talk about non-normative sex particularly, so the more we talk about it the more it willbe liberated and everything will be improved' - and a Foucault argument - that the other side of enforced silence is enforced speech, and that society needs people to talk about sex, but will categorise this talk in a very specific way. I can't work out a way of talking about 'unusual' sex which doesn't feel as though my talk is being incited as an amusing oddity. Like chilli flavoured chocolate or weasel coffee.

Maybe maybe maybe the overall effect is to lessen the taboo around sexual discussion. And I still try. But I think there's a tipping point, where it shifts from 'ordinary people like Ex do this, it can't be so ridiculous/Wrong' to 'Wow, who knew Ex was so dodgy'. And that depends on how well you know people, thus how well you get to explain and how far they trust your perceptions. And most of the people I know well probably don't have taboos around unusual kinds of sex anyway.

I already talk about sex more than I'd want to if I didn't have some kind of Crusading Purpose behind it. It's odd - I don't know many people who can strike a good register when discussing it. I always feel uneasy myself. I was telling an anecdote about converting a sex toy (unused) into a handy sartorial accessory the other day, and then felt somewhat uneasy afterwards, because I wasn't sure if the other person wanted to know about my rude impulse purchases.
 
 
illmatic
08:34 / 26.04.06
Isn't it tedious to hear about sex when it's not your sex?

I don't know about this. It can be tittallating, for start. Though that's not the purpose of this thread, is it, Smoothly? "Course not. Honest, guv."

I think it could potentially it could be very interesting and insightful. It's such a big part of our lives, after all. Hearing people discusses other aspects of their lives on Barbelith has that effect. Don't know about sex though, because of the disclosure issues I mentioned above.
 
 
Smoothly
08:52 / 26.04.06
I don't know about this. It can be tittallating, for start. Though that's not the purpose of this thread, is it, Smoothly?

Course not. Honest, Guv. My next thread, however…

More seriously, I’m now thinking about the titillation factor. Say some people did find a conversation about sex titillating. Is that a bad thing? Could it be a good thing? An appropriate thing? Not sure. But more broadly, although I appreciate Nina’s position on this, I feel a bit more like Illmatic in that I think this stuff can be interesting without it having anything directly to do with me. Similarly, I can be interested in someone’s political views for reasons other than as an indicator of how they might vote in an election, or care about what someone made of a film for more than just the review. But I think different people look to conversation for different things.

that the other side of enforced silence is enforced speech, and that society needs people to talk about sex, but will categorise this talk in a very specific way.

I’d not thought of it like that. That’s interesting, Ex, verrry interestink. Will have to think on.
 
 
ibis the being
14:19 / 26.04.06
In real life I think most of my sex-related conversations with people tend to be along the lines of "Has this happened to you, what did/would you do," or venting about a problem - basically an extension of relationship talk. Often this doesn't have any particular relevance to MY life (unless I'm the one sharing) but for one thing I consider it part of my role as a friend to listen and offer my point of view when asked, and then also I think it's usually a bonding experience to some degree. A lot of talking about sex IRL boils down to finding common ground, realizing the ways in which people share similar experiences whether or not the particulars are the same. I'm thinking of id's NVC Communication thread as one online equivalent, this one as another.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
17:39 / 27.04.06
Steve Weaving: Forgive me for asking, but what kinds of things [are you reluctant to dicuss]? What you enjoy on TV, what sports you play, the kinds of thing you like to cook, what god you pray to, how you vote? I hope that doesn't sound rhetorical - I'm genuinely trying to get a handle on what sex is similar to / different from.

Not at all rhetorical. I suppose for me it's mostly things in my past that I'm reluctant to discuss -the good and the bad, for various reasons that I don't want to go into because I am (hey!) reluctant to discuss them. However, a concrete example that (eventually) ties into something that Nina said: occasionally I will have nightmare, or dreams that are disturbing enough to make me feel a bit 'off' for the rest of the day. I will maybe tell my partner that this has happened, but I don't outline the contents of the dream to him and thoughout the day I won't tell anyone else that it's happened, because I know I won't be able to explain how the dream felt for me.

I think that dreams might be a fairly good analogy for discussing sex -it tends to be so much more interesting for the person doing the telling than the person listening, for me at least. I suppose in part it is because like Ex I don't know many people who can strike a good register when discussing it; those who do so often seem to assume that their adventures with the marmite, the cocaine and the Victoriana are universally interesting and relevant and that there is therefore no reason for them to just stop talking for a bit.
 
 
Quantum
18:25 / 27.04.06
Controversially, I'm against it. I've got no problem with people talking about whatever they like, but I have no interest in reading it particularly- get a forum :-)

I wouldn't talk about sex here because of the privacy issue- not only disclosing other people's acts without consent, but this is the internet and anybody could be reading. I wouldn't want to tell strangers in Detroit about my bedroom antics, and revealing sexual proclivities does put you in a vulnerable-feeling position. Exchanging private information is a trust issue* and there are plenty of people on the internet I don't trust. What you write is here forever, so in a few years your kids can read all about the strap-on experiment, your boss could stumble across it, &c &c.

There's also the issue of offence. I might find graphic descriptions of coprophilia just as offensive as, I don't know, casual racism. We'd need a tag like PICS that said PRON in the thread title, or BDSMXTREME or POOPLAY or 5WAY or something.
There's plenty of places to talk about sex on the internet, and I would like to avoid a Barbelith Porn forum. I hope I'm not being dreadfully vanilla and closed minded but y'know, keep it in your pants. Talk about it in the flesh (then it can lead to kissing), email each other, LJ it or blog about it. I'm all for a sex forum though because then I don't have to go there.

*maybe this is just me, emotional fort knox that I am
 
 
*
19:24 / 27.04.06
I might find graphic descriptions of coprophilia just as offensive as, I don't know, casual racism.

These are different kinds of offensive. Frank talk about sexual acts may offend because ew they're all yucky, or because people have personal triggers relating to some of these acts in particular. Racism offends because it harms people, and all people should be offended by racism without regard to whether they are personally made uncomfortable. SM and powerplay can blur these lines a bit, an inherent danger of the practice and one which those of us who engage in it should be conscientious of.

On other boards where sex is discussed freely, there are usually trigger warnings for acts the description of which may offend people with issues about them, much like your tag system. It seems to work well. I would encourage it in addition to there being a separate forum. Trigger warnings are a courtesy which make boards more accessible for certain people and I greatly encourage their use. At the same time, people are responsible for their own self-care. If you go to the "Sex Please" thread and are then made very uncomfortable or offended because it does not match your sense of what is sexy for you, in certain respects this is your responsibility— although I would certainly like to see people avoid posting things in order to shock and upset people, as always. I appreciate that for some people that's a good reason to stay out of any online discussions of sex.
 
 
*
19:39 / 27.04.06
(Other boards which I participate in where sex is discussed freely, often. Sorry.)
 
 
Spaniel
19:43 / 27.04.06
Quantum, you big prude, you.
 
 
Olulabelle
21:25 / 27.04.06
I love sex.

I love talking about it with people who share my proclivities and I love reading about it, and watching it and being it and doing it.

I can't for the life of me imagine discussing it much here. Barbelith is really, really not a safe space for personal sexual discussion (as outlined in the S&R thread). People here I want to talk to or talk things through with, I would probably PM.

Since I've joined I have been wishing I could start a thread about female subs in BDSM and how my Mum would think that it went against everything she fought for in the 70's but I haven't done so because it's far too personal for a space where I don't fully trust everyone. It's the kind of conversation you need to be able to be honest about. So yes to talking about sex. Maybe no to doing it here.

Hey, I'll talk about it in the pub with you. Mine's a large Shiraz.
 
  

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