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No sex please, we're Barbelith

 
  

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Smoothly
14:51 / 21.04.06
Forgive the title.
In light of the foundering proposal for some kind of Sex, Body, and Relationships forum, here, I thought I might approach one of the issues that has come up a few times, and that I’m quite interested in – not just in how it relates to a putative new forum, but generally.

So, how comfortable do you feel about talking about sex? Do you never do it? Never at dinner parties? Only with close friends; only with your partner(s); only with strangers? Are there some aspects of sex you feel more reluctant to talk about than others? Where are your boundaries?

My boundaries for talking about myself are pretty flimsy. Face-to-face, I can’t think of any direct question asked in good faith that I wouldn’t answer frankly. As Vincennes pointed out in the other thread, this can get complicated, because some aspects of one’s sex life might well involve other people, and so disclosing something about oneself discloses something about another person. I tend to avoid doing that unless I feel confident that the other person wouldn’t mind. But I ask myself why I treat another person’s *sexual* preferences etc as private or secret as a default, but not other preferences. I don’t think I’d agonise for a moment about disclosing my partner’s political beliefs, recreational habits or cultural persuasions in the way I might about her sexual preferences.

My initial assumption was that this was because sex is generally done privately in a way that politics, sport and consuming culture isn’t. But I’m not sure that really holds up. I wonder if there’s a deep-rooted sense of sex as a vulgar subject for discussion, like how much money one has. Or that it is inherently compromising. Maybe even a notion that it is immodest or shameless. There are various things I think it could be good to explore.

Paleface, Vincennes, Flyboy, Flowers and Nina all said really interesting things in connection with this in the Policy thread, and instead of me linking to specifics here, I hope they might restate them themselves. But lots of posters haven’t contributed to that thread, and I’d be interested to hear from more people here.
 
 
ibis the being
15:21 / 21.04.06
I'm glad you started this topic, because I've been following the S&R Policy thread and thinking to myself that it might be putting the cart before the horse - if there are enough good sex-related threads in Convo then a separate forum could more organically arise.

That said, in general (RL & online) I do not start conversations about sex but I will participate if others are talking about sex. I do limit myself, and again generally speaking I'll go (or share) as far as I feel others are going and no further. This is not because *I* feel talking about sex is vulgar, but because I'm aware that others may view it so and I like to feel out their boundaries before I proceed. If I can deduce that they have few inhibitions wrt sexual conversation, only then will I open up to them.

I was once a bit burned when a friend in college betrayed my confidence (or so I saw it) by repeating a sexual tidbit I'd told her in a private conversation (ie, "Hey, ibis likes to...") LOUDLY to a group of about 10 people, some of whom were not close friends. Maybe I shouldn't have been embarrassed, but not knowing some of those people well enough to have ever talked about sex with them, I was mortified (which was my friend's intention).
 
 
Smoothly
15:32 / 21.04.06
Cheers, ibis.
Without saying exactly what that little tidbit was, can you say anything about why you were mortified to have it revealed to strangers?
 
 
illmatic
15:50 / 21.04.06
Funny, 'cos I actually don't talk about sex all that much with the people I know. At least the Barbeloids anyway. I've chatted about it in the abstract but never in the "up close and personal" way. I think that's because most of them know my partner - and disclosing I might do would kind of be disclosing for both of us, which she might not be happy with. Possibly my Barbelith friendships are of a less "intimate" nature than some of my other more long-standing friendship. That's an issue of time as much as anything else - 2/3 years of friendship versus 10 years or more.

Also, thinking about this, a lot of the chats I've had about sex with male friends (insert double enterde of your choice) have rarely been very "examined". More frequently, they've been a bit jokey or even worse, competitive. Perhaps there's something here about straight male/straight male discusions. The more personal, revalatory and intimate discussions have been a lot rarer, though they have occured.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:02 / 21.04.06
There's really only one kind of frank sex talk that worries me and that's bragging/boasting, where the acts being bragged about are along the lines of "I got her drunk and..."- the kind of stories that are being used to get power over a group by suggesting that the speaker has had sex with someone with less than full consent.

Now I'm not suggesting that this kind of talk- the kind that, as a young man, I'm surrounded with in social life- is the sort of talk we would be having on Barbelith, but I think it's best to just put the cards on the table and identify it as something that I really don't like (and I'm fairly sure most people here don't like it either).

I'd also like to draw a distinction between this and the legitimate enthusiastic accounts that people who are open about sex might want to share- I'm not saying we have to talk about sex like wildlife documentary presenters.
 
 
*
17:15 / 21.04.06
While there are some aspects about sex and desire I am private about, generally I am glad to talk about the subject. For example, I've never concealed my interest in BDSM and I'm even happy to talk about what that means for me, but even lovers— maybe especially lovers— have a hard time getting me to share an actual fantasy or request. (Which reticence is, by the way, unhealthy for me in many circumstances.)

I regulate my own boundaries by making sure people know what's appropriate or inappropriate to do with the information I share with them, and trying not to be too free with information that is going to hurt me badly if they misuse it. On the other hand, there's very little about my sexual life that I feel could actually hurt me if misused. I suppose I might be denied a particularly stodgy job in a Catholic boys' school, to my deep and abiding sorrow, but I think I'll be able to get on with my life after a suitable mourning period. Much of this comes from my privilege— I'm studying and working in an area and a field which is particularly unconcerned with people's sexual lives.

For me, the most potentially irritating possibility stemming from being open about my sexual life is that people might begin feminizing me in the way they interact with me on the board. I think I could handle that if it happened a few times, or if people asked good faith questions or made mistakes in good faith. If it happened a lot or persistently, I would feel harassed. I feel comfortable enough with certain people on the board that I trust if I asked for backup from these people they'd help me out, and two or three of us could reason down someone who was otherwise a barbelither but was persistently making me feel uncomfortable. It's not their responsibility, though, and I can see that people might not feel like it's appropriate for me to PM them and ask them to get involved with a discussion about my private life, even if it's only to the extent of telling the person who's making me uncomfortable to back off. That might be an argument against making space for these kinds of conversations, in whatever form. But I also think it's a reasonably remote risk, except with people who would probably end up getting themselves banned anyway.

a lot of the chats I've had about sex with male friends... have rarely been very "examined". More frequently, they've been a bit jokey or even worse, competitive. ... The more personal, revalatory and intimate discussions have been a lot rarer, though they have occured.

I think I also feel that way, that I have little outlet for actually having personal, self-reflective discussions about my sexuality and my interrelationships (even nonsexual ones) with people I respect. I feel that these conversations are not for me substantively different from the conversations I have on barbelith about other topics. The same sort of rules apply: don't attack people, be respectful, critique ideas rather than the poster (to which I would add the poster's feelings or experiences, but I think that's generally understood). It's just the content that's different. So for that reason I'd like to create a space where those kinds of conversations can flourish on barbelith.

There are a few rules that should apply to these kinds of conversations which don't necessarily apply elsewhere. People should be able to "take the fifth" if they feel a question is getting too personal, without the questioner feeling that they've somehow scored a point or that the person who refused them an answer is trying to weasel out of something. People should be especially careful about bringing information out of PMs which relates to this subject matter, even if it seems germane to the discussion. Posters should rigorously respect boundaries of comfort— "I'm not comfortable with this conversation anymore" should not be seen as an opening for further interrogation; it's much more important that that poster be given the space they need to feel comfortable than that we satisfy our curiosity about the exact causes, mechanisms, and experiences contributing to their discomfort.

We're a lot of intellectuals, and we live in our heads much of the time, if I may be so bold as to generalize from my own experience. This makes barbelith feel unbalanced to me. It doesn't need to be balanced, but it might benefit from some. I don't love the "women like this kind of talk, so talking about relationships will make barbelith more women-friendly!" line of argument. I think it would be better to say that certain people who tend to be more interrelational than intellectual would feel more comfortable on barbelith, and I think that's as valid (although perhaps not as immediately necessary) a pursuit as making barbelith more "women-friendly."
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
18:11 / 21.04.06
Talking about sex...yeah.

...talking about sex is something that's always made me distinctly uncomfortable. Maybe its becuase I'm the ONLY person I know who, at 22, is still a virgin (which seems to have become a very naughty word in modern society, suggesting someone who's either ugly, a prude, a religious fanatic, or just to obnixious to "get any"), I dunno. I also find it very difficult to communicate this to people around me, who either like talking about sex, or bring it up at inopportune times.

Relationships, and sex, frankly confuse the hell out of me. I know how to be friends with people of either gender...but for some reason I just can't figure this whole "asking someone out" thing, much less trying to figure out when or how sex comes out of said relationship.

So...yeah. I generally do, as (id)entity (one of the most amusing, and yet elegantly simple, handles here, BTW) says, "take the fifth" when it comes to sexual questions. But I think that there's a certain amount of guilt/disgust related to that by most people. If you don't want to talk about it, some people assume you're polite or prudish, and others assume that you're into something too disgusting to talk about...especially if you deny it.

Is it wrong to be modest and not understand sex? Sometimes I really don't know.
 
 
*
18:18 / 21.04.06
Bard, it seems like you've felt really uncomfortable when people seem to expect you to talk about sex. It sounds to me like you're feeling judged by other people when you don't want to engage in that. I bet that feels really diminishing.

I don't want to judge you or make any assumptions about your interests. As a person who likes to talk about sex, how can I help you feel more comfortable when we're sharing internet space?
 
 
ibis the being
18:19 / 21.04.06
Without saying exactly what that little tidbit was, can you say anything about why you were mortified to have it revealed to strangers?

Good question, and I've never asked it of myself before so we'll see how I do now.... In the first place my reaction was in direction relation to what I knew was my friend's intent (to embarrass me) - she had a habit of frequently, deliberately pushing people's buttons and humiliating them in that way. But of course that's an insufficient explanation since if she was pushing my buttons she knew a button was there to push.

Part of it may have been the specific context, but I'm afraid I can't remember many details as it happened several years ago and there was beer involved. I think it was that the way she said it - almost like offering my services or something - that seemed demeaning. I felt that I'd trusted her to take my expression of a sexual preference as just normal healthy sexuality, and she'd turned right around and framed it as "slutty" or something for the benefit of everyone's amusement (which, to their credit, they did not find amusing but rather awkward and rude).
 
 
All Acting Regiment
18:26 / 21.04.06
Bard, if you don't mind me asking, did that discomfort stem from the kind of sex talk that other people have mentioned on this thread- you know, boasting, power grabbing, cock waving- and do you feel that having barbelith-type sex talk might allow you to work through some of that discomfort?
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
18:42 / 21.04.06
Barbelith sex talk I'm generally fine with, and I apologize if I came off as sounding offended or confrontational about it. I'm not made uncomfortable by threads like this, or in general. My favourite forums, Barbelith and the Engine, have some sexual conversational content, but I'm cool with that.

Its more real life, in the flesh sex conversations that I get uncomfortable with.
 
 
*
19:01 / 21.04.06
I apologize if I came off as sounding offended or confrontational about it.

Not at all— you don't need to sound offended for me to take your feelings seriously. I bet that other people also feel uncomfortable around this issue, and I'd like to make sure that I can avoid causing them discomfort, whether that's on the internet or in real life.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
19:02 / 21.04.06
I tend to be very uncomfortable talking about sex for a few reasons. A lot of it, I think, does stem from a certain amount of guilt- growing up my dad instilled in me the idea that sex is... not taboo, precisely, and not necessarily 'dirty' or 'wrong' but something which was a private thing between two people and that it pretty much wasn't anybody else's business. I can remember having conversations with my pops where he expressed what seemed to be a combination of anger, disappointment, and contempt for teen sex (like, high school age). He perceived it as a selfish and damaging act which would adversely affect people's sex lives later on. So talking about sex, to a certain extent, feels transgressive, I guess. I'm not sure, in a forum like this where I don't know anybody, that I'd be unwilling to do it, but I can't really say for sure.

All that said, I have had some very interesting and sensitive conversations about sex with my housemates, all of whom are male. There is, to be sure, a bit of what legba terms 'cockwaving' but it tends to be self-consciously ridiculous and also is put aside when something serious is brought up.

So yeah, maybe not much helpful there. Although Bard, as someone who pretty much didn't enter into a steady relationship until I was well into college, I sympathize with you and with being surrounded by people who don't quite understand. I remember being utterly, utterly astonished to find out, when I was a sophomore in high school, how many of my friends were having sex.
 
 
lekvar
20:09 / 21.04.06
I rarely discuss my sexual activities with anyone other than my partner. This is because my tastes, and my partner's, are less than vanilla, and we still live in a society where men and women (and other power relationships) are judged by different standards. If I were to talk about my sex life with a friend I, as a male, would not be likely to experience much backlash. My partner, being female, risks being tarred with a different brush, and I don't want to subject her to that. If she feels comfortable bringing up our sex life with our friends she is perfectly welcome to do so, but I won't take away her right to privacy.

That being said, I'd like to see a Sex, Body & Relationship forum on Barbelith so that I can talk about sex under the aegis* of internet anonymity. I understand that Barbelith isn't as anonymous for some as it is for others.


*ever tried it? It's mind-blowing, I'm telling you.
 
 
Spaniel
21:13 / 21.04.06
Well, the problem I have about discussing sex on this board - the problem many of us have, as has been noted elsewhere - is that my partner and I happen to know quite a few Barbelithers IRL and a number of them count amongst our closest friends. Shit, I even have relatives and close family friends who post/lurk here (my twin brother and one of my sisters), so whilst I'm hardly uncomfortable talking about the subject privately I'm aware that if I talk about sex here it could well be public knowledge tomorrow, and by public I mean common knowledge amongst my mates and family.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
21:21 / 21.04.06
"Don't talk of love / you'll only bore her."

I've very few inhibitions when it comes to talking about sex with friends, or on some random 'net board; in point of fact I'm quite enthusiastic about it...

...but I'm sure I'd be a better lover if I could only find better ways of asking "what's good for you?" or telling "what's good for me?" without causing embarassment or offence!
 
 
*
00:31 / 22.04.06
Hey, Kay— you might want to check out the experimental thread I started in Convo about negotiating sex.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
06:26 / 22.04.06
(id)entity
Not at all— you don't need to sound offended for me to take your feelings seriously. I bet that other people also feel uncomfortable around this issue, and I'd like to make sure that I can avoid causing them discomfort, whether that's on the internet or in real life.

Id, you haven't made me feel in the least bit uncomfortable, either in this thread or in others. You've been quite forthwright without being explicit, and have done an excellent job in explaining your thoughts.

Fun With Phobias
So yeah, maybe not much helpful there. Although Bard, as someone who pretty much didn't enter into a steady relationship until I was well into college, I sympathize with you and with being surrounded by people who don't quite understand. I remember being utterly, utterly astonished to find out, when I was a sophomore in high school, how many of my friends were having sex.

I think one of the most uncomfortable experiences I've had this year was when I got a ride from a friend down to a gaming convention in January. My friend's first words right after we got off the topic about being relieved that a problem player had recently left the game was "We've got to get you some con-sex this weekend."

...at which point I basically just sort of stopped. And blinked. And looked at him. And said what has become, for better or for worse, my answer to statements like that:

"Why?"

...and that just kind of stopped him in his tracks. Then I made a joke. Then we went on to talking about something else.

But DAMN did that make me uncomfortable.
 
 
diz
07:18 / 22.04.06
This is because my tastes, and my partner's, are less than vanilla, and we still live in a society where men and women (and other power relationships) are judged by different standards.

This is true, and the various tricky issues with regard to gender, sex, and dom(me)/sub roles make that sort of thing complicated.

It's also true that different fetishes are treated differently as well. There's that old saying that "perverted" means "kinkier than you," and I think that's an accurate reflection of how certain activities are still very taboo even amongst hipsters who would be very cool about someone admitting to a taste for light bondage or something would be horrified if you started talking about (pick one: fisting, furry sex, infantilism, gang bangs, golden showers, cutting/blood play, etc). There's "not vanilla" and "REALLY not vanilla," and as frustrating as it can be to feel like I need to be "in the closet" about certain things with, say, people I work with, I find it's often more frustrating to be with some group of hipsters talking very eagerly about their kinky sexual practices when I have to worry that they might be squicked if I started talking about some of mine.

Also, I find a lot of people in the BDSM scene (and to some extent, the poly scene) to be obnoxious and dogmatic, like you're not really kinky if you don't want to play all their stupid ritualistic status games and/or your sexual preferences don't fit neatly into their dom/sub binaries and/or you don't want to fuck them.

It's hard to find people to have in-depth conversations about specific sex practices, unless you're actually having sex with them.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
09:36 / 22.04.06
I think one of the most uncomfortable experiences I've had this year was when I got a ride from a friend down to a gaming convention in January. My friend's first words right after we got off the topic about being relieved that a problem player had recently left the game was "We've got to get you some con-sex this weekend."

Bard, I'm sure that would make anyone feel uncomfortable.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:56 / 22.04.06
dom(me)

If (you) insist.

Sorry.
 
 
Smoothly
01:07 / 23.04.06
One of the things I'm finding most interesting about all of this is how the closeness of the relationship with the audience seems to exert conflicting forces. So on the one hand we have:

I actually don't talk about sex all that much with the people I know. At least the Barbeloids anyway... Possibly my Barbelith friendships are of a less "intimate" nature than some of my other more long-standing friendships.

But on the other:
Well, the problem I have about discussing sex on this board - the problem many of us have, as has been noted elsewhere - is that my partner and I happen to know quite a few Barbelithers IRL and a number of them count amongst our closest friends.

It looks as if, for some people, an intimate friendship is necessary in order to talk frankly about sex, and yet for others it's prohibitive.

Although I wonder if, in fact, the graph of 'comfort' against 'familiarity with audience' (from complete stranger to closest friend/partner/family) is more like a bell-curve than a straight line. I wonder, because that's roughly how it is for me. In real life, I'm pretty unlikely to talk about sex with people I've just met. As familiarity increases, my comfort increases too. *But only up to a point*. A bit like (id)entity, I feel more reticent to talk about sex with my partner than I do with good friends. And I really don't like talking about it with members of my family (although perhaps that's different. Might have to come back to that). It's probably optimum when I'm with someone who knows me pretty well (who I know I'm not going to make feel uncomfortable) but who isn't heavily invested in the content of the conversation.
Dunno, maybe that's just me.

I'd like to know from the people who have talked about their reticence, if there are other subjects they feel similarly reluctant to discuss.

It's also been interesting to hear about all the bragging/boasting/cockwaving. I've never had much experience of that (although most of my friends are - and pretty much always have been - female, so maybe that has something to do with it), but I think I might have a different attitude to such conversations if that's what I'd learned to expect.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
11:44 / 23.04.06
Steve Weaving: I don’t think I’d agonise for a moment about disclosing my partner’s political beliefs, recreational habits or cultural persuasions in the way I might about her sexual preferences.

I think a lot of the issue is how one would disclose one's partner's opinions. For example, today I am probably going to start a thread on Samuel Beckett's Endgame, which I went to see last night with my partner and one of our friends. What I post when I start that topic will probably contain ideas that came up in our discussions after the play -so I will, albeit indirectly, be talking about things my partner and friend said. I assume neither of them will mind that, because if I misrepresent their views (and I probably will, a bit, since it's going to be me writing) it's not like those views were attributed in the first place.

When talking about sex, however -particularly, I suppose, when one is in a monogamous relationship (as I am, and I suppose I can go so far as to say we are) -it's pretty clear that whatever one is talking about is directly relevant to one's partner in one way or another, and I think that misrepresentation would be more of a problem. There's no get out, really -I would have started a thread (or maybe just talked about starting a thread) on Endgame if I'd gone on my own, but as above -if I were talking about my sex life it does, always, have direct relevance to another person. I'm not sure I could abstract talking about it in the way I can abstract discussions of culture to a post on Barbelith.
 
 
illmatic
12:10 / 23.04.06
It looks as if, for some people, an intimate friendship is necessary in order to talk frankly about sex, and yet for others it's prohibitive.

Isn't it both, for all of us, at different times? For instance, I can see circumstances when me revealing details of my sex life to a good friend would be wildly inappropriate (I made a fellow Barbeloid wince recently by refering to it - a mental image too far, I think). However, the conversational ground could easily shift - deepen - into a situation where that discussion is appopriate. It's not the type of friendship - it#'s more an issue of "appropriate disclosure".

Perhaps being able to read such things sensitvely is a condition of intimacy?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:10 / 23.04.06
I feel uncomfortable talking about sex- well, more about the sex lives of myself and others than the mechanics of the thing, jokes and the like- probably for similar reasons to Bard. I'd never had sex until I was about 22/23, having discovered drugs at 17 and given them all my available time.

I think in my case it's also because it's fairly tied up with emotion, and I don't really like talking about my emotions that much either (they're usually fairly self-explanatory in themselves). As you can imagine, going into counselling for depression and drink problems consisted largely of awkward silences for the first few months.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:28 / 23.04.06
It's also been interesting to hear about all the bragging/boasting/cockwaving. I've never had much experience of that (although most of my friends are - and pretty much always have been - female, so maybe that has something to do with it), but I think I might have a different attitude to such conversations if that's what I'd learned to expect.

Cockwaving- a fairly neccesary stage in a chap's development at which, in lieu of actually having relationships with people, one rather talks it up. Self-generated shared fantasy world. It's helpful and healthy because it allows people to work out what's what. Is supposed to stop about the time people start actually kissing girls though.

Unfortunately, often doesn't, however. Case in point: FHM and so on and their culture. Relationships with girls become subsumed by desire to please male friends, sometimes to the point where quite horrific things are being done and laughed about and no-one in the group is allowed to challenge it because then you'd be called a "pooftah" and get beaten up.

This is something that's been quite a serious issue in my life. When I was 15, a guy got some girls over to his house, got them drunk, asked them to flash for him. He took photos, put them on the internet. All of this without thier consent.

Now it goes without saying that this is unacceptable behaviour, way beyond the boundaries of "sexy fun"- but I was the only male in the group who voiced concern with it, while the others had a good laugh about it and saved the pictures to their hard-drives. I was ostracised for not joining in.

Luckily for me I had enough female friends and enough confidence that I didn't need to be part of that male group, even though I got lots of shit for my views- a lot of young men without this support network feel unable to say when something's wrong even when they feel repulsed by it, and so we go from "group of teenagers boasting about sex" ----> "group of men who let rape/domestic violence go unchecked".
 
 
Axolotl
17:00 / 23.04.06
Ugh. That sounds nasty Legba and kudos for standing up to those idiots.
Personally I'm horribly uncomfortable talking about sex, partly because most of the time I've been part of a conversation it seems very much to be cock-waving (nothing as bad as Legba's experiences though) and partly because I'm horribly repressed. It is the English way after all.
Seriously though sex, for me at least, is an intensely private thing, and discussing it just makes me embarrassed, though I am willing to concede that this is mainly due to my own personal hang-ups than any wider rule.
 
 
Smoothly
20:53 / 23.04.06
I have to count myself lucky that I've somehow managed to avoid environments like that. Thinking about times when I've been in an exclusively male group, talk about sex tends to be largely self-effacing, with jokes and anecdotes tending to be at the teller's expense. Men, in my experience, tend to punish boasting (even that which could be interpreted as boasting) pretty robustly; even a hint of a hero story being seized upon for a round of ruthless derision and piss-taking.
I think this must be a factor in why I'm pretty comfortable talking about this stuff. I'm used to frailty and failure being currency rather than a liability.


For instance, I can see circumstances when me revealing details of my sex life to a good friend would be wildly inappropriate (I made a fellow Barbeloid wince recently by refering to it - a mental image too far, I think)

I think this summarises rather well another factor that seems to be at play. I get a sense that some people feel uncomfortable talking about sex, or will at least hold certain things back, *for the benefit of their interlocutor*. I can't help but try to imagine exactly what mental image Illmatic conjured on this particular occasion, but I'm struggling to think of what would make me wince. Dunno, maybe I shouldn't go there.

Perhaps this is related to something I touched on earlier. There is one person I really don't like to talk about sex with: my mother. This is partly because I just don't like to think about her having sex. Now, I'm sure this is quite common - standard even, and there might be particular, Freudian reasons why this is so. But I've never really examined it.
Why do so many of us feel particularly uncomfortable talking about sex with our parents? In some ways you'd think they'd be ideal candidates (there's often a high level of trust and intimacy, the informations is less likely to be used against you... etc). Is it the genetic connection, the power dynamic, the over-familiarity...?
Or am I off-beam here? I know some people who do talk about sex, in very frank terms, with their parents. And maybe those of us who don't are the unusual ones. Either way, I'd appreciate some help understanding why I might have this blind-spot. It might help explain this double-edged intimacy factor.

Seriously though sex, for me at least, is an intensely private thing, and discussing it just makes me embarrassed

This is something else I'd like to understand better. For example, I tend to do sex in private, but I don't mind talking about sex more publicly, in the same way that I'm happy to talk publicly about other things that I don't *do* in public. I see no conflict there.

But maybe Phox doesn't mean that sex is private in that way. Is it perhaps a bit like talking about money? That one shouldn't talk about money (particularly how much you earn, and what things cost you) was drummed into me from a young age. Money is private. I would still hesitate before asking someone what they earned, and I would flinch if someone asked me. I believe this is a pretty wide-spread taboo.
But when I started working, I began to question this. Who benefits from this taboo? Keeping my salary secret doesn't protect my interests (the people who decide what I'm paid already know what I and other people are paid), it doesn't benefit my colleagues (quite the opposite, some might benefit from knowing, the better to assess their own value). The people who benefit from keeping this matter private are my employers.

So, if talking about sex is 'private' in the same way - a cultural taboo - I ask the same question: Who benefits from its observation? Would the world be fairer, wiser and would power be distributed more evenly if we were all more open about our sexuality?

Sorry, a bit of a stream-of-conscious ramble. Apologies if these half-formed thoughts are utter bollocks.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
21:05 / 23.04.06
So, if talking about sex is 'private' in the same way - a cultural taboo - I ask the same question: Who benefits from its observation? Would the world be fairer, wiser and would power be distributed more evenly if we were all more open about our sexuality?

If it's kept private, it can be mystified and used to control people- see organised religion down thru the years. But who does it benefit now? Good question, I reckon we need to look at it.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
22:02 / 23.04.06
Mostly, I should think, the people who don't like walking into a pub on a Friday night and hearing the words "lol, I know what you're going to be doing at the weekend". I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to go out with people in my immediate social circle, and don't want all of them to know what I get up to with my partner. Emphasis, there, on the word 'all' -it's not that I want to 'mystify' anyone else, I just happen to consider my genetalia to be my business, so I prefer to control the flow of information concerning such.
 
 
Smoothly
22:23 / 23.04.06
And my question to that is 'why not'? Not because I think you shouldn't feel like that (or that others have some kind of right to know, or that you have an obligation to disclose), I just wonder why. As I asked earlier, and given that most things you do are 'your business', is there anything else you're similarly reluctant to discuss? What's so special about your genetalia?
 
 
*
22:32 / 23.04.06
Mostly, I should think, the people who don't like walking into a pub on a Friday night and hearing the words "lol, I know what you're going to be doing at the weekend".

But if there were no taboo, there'd be no incentive for people to say that kind of thing, because they wouldn't get the rewarding blush/annoyed reaction from you. If there were no taboo, it wouldn't be any more annoying to have people ask "So how was the strap-on experiment last night?" than to have them ask "How did the birthday dinner go?"

Why do so many of us feel particularly uncomfortable talking about sex with our parents? In some ways you'd think they'd be ideal candidates (there's often a high level of trust and intimacy, the informations is less likely to be used against you... etc).

From my perspective, you're way off base. I trust my parents to have the best of intentions, to be sure, but I don't trust them not to attempt to manipulate me—parenting is manipulation. I don't trust them not to judge me—parenting is judgment. I have a long history of being parented by my parents (fortunately). It's a common problem that when one is an adult and no longer needs parenting, one often still expects one's parents to parent, and one's parents often still feel obliged to do so. But parenting should not be applied to an adult's sex life, because judgment about your sexuality is hurtful, and manipulation using your sexuality as a lever is harmful.

(Oooh, I realized I have some good friends who would probably take exception to the above... well, it's just my opinion, and probably explains why I've never shared the enthusiasm for Daddy/Boy relationships.)
 
 
ibis the being
23:46 / 23.04.06
Why do so many of us feel particularly uncomfortable talking about sex with our parents? In some ways you'd think they'd be ideal candidates (there's often a high level of trust and intimacy, the informations is less likely to be used against you... etc). Is it the genetic connection, the power dynamic, the over-familiarity...?
Or am I off-beam here?


Since my parents divorced when I was 20, my dad and I have developed and nurtured a relationship with each other that is more as friends or family equals than it is parent-child. In fact my dad has even through a slip of the tongue/brain introduced me as his sister once (!), and has told me several times he feels more like a sibling with me that a father figure at this point. I know that sounds weird but he relied on me for emotional support through the divorce and that brought us closer in a new way.

So, as part of that, we have talked about sex from time to time. Mostly it's my dad talking about it, again not in a parental way but more like friends do... however, it's NOT totally equal because while my dad feels mostly like I'm his equal, I'm still very much aware that he's my dad and I'm his daughter, and there are things he doesn't want to know, even if he doesn't know he doesn't want to know them. After all, this is the same dad who, when I was 18, told me "[Mom and I] don't want to know if you're having sex, but if you are, and we don't want to know, just please don't get an abortion." (He's a Fundy, what can I say.)
 
 
diz
02:31 / 24.04.06
Why do so many of us feel particularly uncomfortable talking about sex with our parents? In some ways you'd think they'd be ideal candidates (there's often a high level of trust and intimacy, the informations is less likely to be used against you... etc).

My relationship with my family is better than it has been in about 15 years precisely because there isn't a high level of trust and intimacy. We have pleasant conversations now that I fully understand where my boundaries with them are and should be. Sex talk is definitely out.

They're lovely people, but we live in different worlds, and that's probably for the best.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
05:59 / 24.04.06
(id)entity: If there were no taboo, it wouldn't be any more annoying to have people ask "So how was the strap-on experiment last night?" than to have them ask "How did the birthday dinner go?"

Quickly, because it is early and for some reason I can't quite fathom I have a bit of a headache: I suppose the question is one of negotiation. If I start a new relationship I don't want to feel that the other person knows what to expect from me before we even get to the point of having sex.

In this regard, I have a little example that involves me having a sob after the birthday dinner and a sob after the strap-on experiment, how I'd feel about telling my friends about either of those things and how they might read it, but it's going to have to wait because I need to go to work. (that'll teach me to post late and drunk)
 
  

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