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Total War (Shogun, Medieval, Rome)

 
  

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Loomis
08:48 / 21.04.06
I’ve searched and unbelievably there’s no dedicated thread for these games. I’ve found a number of comments on some other threads, particularly a lot from Tez on the Rome game, so feel free to re-post anything here.

I’m not much of a gamer but I recently got Medieval Total War for a fiver on ebay and have become totally addicted to it. I’ve played plenty of strategy games like Warcraft and AOE before but this is so much better, even just on the campaign side, and of course there are the battles. I’m still on my first game playing on an easy setting, and haven’t encountered any problems so far but I’ve been reading up about it and will tackle a harder game soon.

A few links:

Discussion forum.

Totalwar.org.

MTW tips and strategy guides.

More MTW tips.

Yet more MTW tips.

Some of the things I’ve read on that forum suggest that though the graphics are better on RTW, the gameplaying experience isn’t as good as MTW. Who here has played both? Any comments? MTW2 coming out soon. Who’s going to buy that?

Share your favourite campaigns, battles and factions here.
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
13:19 / 21.04.06
Well, since I’ve been mentioned in the initial post as loving this series I guess it falls to me to make the first post.

As to the game play experience, it largely depends on what you want/expect. Certainly, I wouldn’t say that Rome is any worse in general gameplay than its predecessor, it's just a different beast.

That said, Rome does have certain advantages, and perhaps the most notable is the huge overhaul of the campaign map.
Gone are the simple areas of landmass, where an army either is or is not present, and in are the massively more detailed terrains. Multiple opposing armies can now trek through Gaul and never meet each other, which opens up a massive wealth of strategies as much as it prevents the simple MTW tactic of defending your empire by just placing big armies on your outermost areas.
In Rome, armies now only clash when they actually meet, which is a good point at which to mention another advantage of the game over its predecessor...

...as well as being a gorgeously rendered 3D experience, one of the biggest advantages lies in the map’s actual terrain, which now has a direct impact on battles fought there.

With MTW, there existed a certain set of core map types (coast, with river, mountains, etc.) which were assigned to the areas of the overall map. Sure, the actual topography of the battle map was randomly generated, but they still followed simple formula, and every battle in a certain area had, roughly, the same kind of map. This tended to lead to the same basic battle-strategies being employed.
In Rome however, you must choose your battles carefully, depending not only on the makeup of your and the opponent’s army, but now on where your armies meet. Every piece of scenery you see on the world map is reproduced faithfully on the battle map, which means that I can be sure that if I place my army on a bridge over the river Rhine near to a deeply forested hill, that will be exactly what I get to play on should my army be attacked or attack there. I can then ensure that my army is equipped to get the best strategic advantage from that terrain.

I also greatly like the way in which members of your faction grow and develop, gaining flaws or merits according to their actions. This was done pretty well in MTW, but it really does have a much larger impact in Rome, which adds a lot to the game. On a bit more of a geeky level, I also found myself empathising with certain movers and shakers in my faction far more in Rome than in MTW, rewarding those who performed well and setting those who didn't up as practice targets for my assassins.

I guess the only gripe I had with Rome vanilla (i.e. the unmodded version), was the - at times - hugely disproportionate power levels of the empires. I appreciated the realism of course (that part of the reason for Rome’s utter domination of the then known world was its highly advanced and disciplined army), but such a difference of power levels did not a fun game make. Before I heavily modded the game with the Rome Total Realism patch, I never once felt that my army or empire was threatened, except by other Roman factions, and even in battles where I was hideously outnumbered, my tiny but well disciplined force could win with minimal losses.
Similarly, playing as the barbarian factions could at times seem like a taking on Goliath without remembering to bring your sling.

I loved MTW, for all its poor graphics and many flaws, and loved Rome for its massively improved interface and campaign map. Even if MTW2 introduces no new advantages and simply rebuilds MTW on the Rome engine, it will quickly become my favourite game, and quite possible the greatest PC game of all time.


Share your favourite campaigns, battles and factions here.

I confess that I'm a sucker for the Arab people. I've spent a lot of time in the Middle East, and speak the language (albeit to a very basic level). Consequently, I find myself leaning towards the Arab factions in both MTW and Rome, which are a lot of fun to play (there's also the highly enjoyable tactic of sending legions of Imam out into the world to inhabit infidel cities until they revolt in your favour).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:54 / 21.04.06
See, I'm a much simpler beast than Tez. I like the Arab factions, too, but it's largely because they have the best music.
 
 
Feverfew
17:54 / 21.04.06
I enjoyed playing as Aragon (argh, can't remember if that's how it was properly spelt) in Medieval; between the French and the Spanish, and prone to invasion from Africa, it made things... Tenuous. At best in the early stages you could hope to hold around four territories, until you got some boats on the go, then it was easy enough to pick off the neutral / barbarian areas that remained; with enough boats at one point, I ruled Scandinavia, Ireland and Scicily. Which was nice. I can't remember their music, though.

In terms of strategy, I was a big fan of prior bombardment; archers, crossbowmen and siege engines were a great deal of fun. I could never quite master the art of close-combat melees other than the "Hold a unit of cavalry in reserve and steam in from behind at some point" strategy - and I did have a preponderance of peasant units in my armies for way too long, but damn, now I want to play it again.
 
 
Loomis
19:04 / 21.04.06
I really need to start a new game on a higher difficulty level. I'm being spoiled on the easy setting and I'll no doubt get hammered when I try a higher level.

At the moment I'm doing really well with a few Swiss Halberdiers in the middle, a few units of Welsh longbowmen behind, and plenty of royal nights on the sides. Haven't used infantry much but need to practice incorporating them as well. And the sieges are way too easy on this setting. I can break the gate down with a unit of peasants then kill whoever's inside easily without any siege engines.

I've heard that the Turkish are good. I might try them next.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:09 / 22.04.06
Get Viking Invasion. Should be able to pick that up for next to nothing now. I'm really hoping the Vikings feature in Medieval 2... they deserve the new graphics engine, they really do.
 
 
Axolotl
15:49 / 23.04.06
I recently saw Shogun dead cheap, due to my PC sucking it may well be the only one of the series I can run. Is it worth picking up?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:56 / 23.04.06
Just a word of caution: if it's the budget rerelease, it doesn't include a proper manual. There's one on the CD, but that's obviously no use when you're playing the game. I'm sure I'd really like Shogun - like you, it's the only one my PC will run - but as a result of this I've never had the faintest idea what I'm meant to be doing in the turn-based world map sections.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
23:03 / 23.04.06
For setting, I certainly prefer Medieval, and I'm looking forward to Medieval 2 (with the usual mixture of anticipation and trepidation, or "will my bloody machine be up to it, will it hell"). The Roman setting, for me, is simply not as interesting as the Medieval period; endless flavours of legionary just aren't as romantic as gleaming knights in full plate, or as evocative as longbowmen, or as sinister as the Golden Horde or the first cannon. No chance!

That being said, it's difficult to go back to Medieval, or Shogun for that matter, because by comparison with Rome they look very dated. Which is why Medieval 2, for me, will hopefully rival sliced bread.

I think there's a general problem with tactical wargames, incidentally, in that the player has both greater vision and greater control of the battlefield than the commanding generals really would've. This leads to the perpetuation of certain approaches to representing units - specifically, in the representation of lines of battle as being composed of discrete units which can be individually ordered and which are usually comprised of identikit soldiers and have 'global' attributes for, say, morale - which, while allowing the player to do more, aren't really realistic at all. When I see a wargame which depicts two massive mobs of randomly equipped individuals facing off and command groups doing their nut trying to get them to follow any orders at all, I shall be very happy. And possibly very bored!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:21 / 23.04.06
I get your point... but I think with me it comes down to "I like to play games where I pretend to command vast armies, but don't actually think I'd want to do it in real life". Above and beyond my hatred of RL warfare, I think a lot of the command-type stuff would, as you say, be REALLY FUCKING BORING. Imagine a WW2 or Vietnam game where all you got to do was say "right, we need to take this position", or "we need to send all available troops to Saigon". It would be no fun. ESPECIALLY so with something like Medieval or Rome, where there'd be no instant communication. "FUCK!!! We lost that city a week ago? If I'd known it was under threat I could have reinforced it, but... oh bollocks. The runner only just turned up, and..."
 
 
Baz Auckland
02:37 / 24.04.06
Shogun is really worth picking up... it doesn't look as nice as MTW, but it's a lot of fun just for the setting alone.

Also, if you have MTW, the Viking Invasions is needed. Not for the viking expansion, but for the updates and fixes it gives MTW. The game is more playable, and you can be the Sicilians!
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
02:56 / 24.04.06
...Imagine a WW2 or Vietnam game...

There doesn't seem to be that many places you can go after Fuedal Japan, Medieval Europe and Ancient Rome... or is there?
I've played through Shogun and Medieval, and conquered them both before hitting the silicon glass ceiling with Rome, and I'm a little surprised that the team behind them wants to do another Medieval (at least until they've updated Shogun, my ninja aren't menacing enough when they have the pixel count of the average Space Invader).
They could do: Napoleon, the Chinese Warring States period, Biblical Total War, World War One might even work. Other ideas?
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
05:56 / 24.04.06
endless flavours of legionary just aren't as romantic as gleaming knights

What about the romance of the barbarian people as they fight against the Roman hordes, or the exotic mystery of the Arab cultures as they fend off the uncivilised Europeans? There are a lot of playable factions other than Rome, you know.


I'm a little surprised that the team behind them wants to do another Medieval

I'm not, and I'm very happy at that. I utterly love the Medieval period, and, if it wasn't for the flaws plaguing MTW1 when compared to Rome, I'd still be playing it now. I have enough faith in the team to be pretty sure that MTW2 is going to easily be one of the best PC games ever written.

As to other time periods, there are as you say plenty of options, but I'm not too sure how many more would have that broad an appeal. And that's the problem. With previous incarnations, we're not talking very specific years here, but very general periods of history. There have only been so many of these, and less that are well known and popular enough to ensure sales of the game.
MTW sold so fantastically, that I'm glad they're doing it as a sequal, although, from what I've seen so far, I'm not convinced even my machine will run it smoothly.
 
 
Thorn Davis
08:27 / 24.04.06

I haven't yet played Rome: Total War, but a couple of years ago I was dedicating a disgraceful amount of time to Medieval. Even so, even on the easy setting I was still embarrassingly bad at it, and after a hundred years or so, would find my armies crippled by a lack of planning and general over enthusiasm for invading countries. So I'd wind up with my army stretched halfway across the game map, reinforcements years away, massively in debt and basically a sitting duck for anyone who fancied it.

Also, I had a bad habit of playing for 12 hours or so at a time (sort of 4pm to 4am), and drinking throughout, so my actions would become increasingly rash and incoherent; much like a genuine Medieval ruler slowly losing his marbles throughout the course of his reign. Add to this the fact that the next time I came to play it I'd have no clue what the hell I'd been planning when I'd finally passed out over the keyboard, and... well... my games always wound up being pretty desperate and futile. Maybe if I was brighter, and less prone to bouts of breathtaking idiocy in my strategy I'd be tempted to give Rome a go, but if it really is more complex than Medieval I can't imagine the results will be good.
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
10:02 / 24.04.06
Even so, even on the easy setting I was still embarrassingly bad at it, and after a hundred years or so, would find my armies crippled by a lack of planning and general over enthusiasm for invading countries.

Well, the Total War series isn't really a good one for providing immediate gratification (unless you're just playing custom battles). The campaign mode can require a pretty sizable investment of time and focus (which is preceisely what I love about it), and Rome, being by far the most complex title to date, only expands on that. I shouldn't be surprised if MTW2's campaign mode demands even more time than Rome's.

The trick with the Total War series, IMHO, is to take things at a steady pace. Patience is the key to victory.
This same philosophy generally goes for the battles as well. I tend to be a very careful general, almost never committing a unit unless I know I can beat the opposing unit(s) whilst taking minimal losses myself.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
11:05 / 24.04.06
What about the romance of the barbarian people as they fight against the Roman hordes, or the exotic mystery of the Arab cultures as they fend off the uncivilised Europeans? There are a lot of playable factions other than Rome, you know.
Oh, quite, but the focus of the game is Rome, after all, there's far too many of those dratted Latins about. I found the barbarian tribes a bit shallow in the (unexpanded) Rome and a bit fanciful in the expansion ("we seek the Grail!"; cool but corny!). I did like the Seleucids and Parthians (especially with that natty pink/purple/blue colour scheme they seemed to dig), with all their nice heffalumps poised to squash, crush and trample. And the Carthaginians ("...to the ground and plough the furrows with salt") have an inherent coolness. But, all in all, not as entrancing for me as the Medieval period.

One thing I did find with Medieval was that different units went in and out of usefulness. Particularly the Byzantine ones, which rapidly became very crap indeed; and also the way the standard Feudal Spearmen were much more versatile than Chivalric ones. Seemed a bit odd, to me, the way that the basic spear-armed infantry of the Western world forgot how to attack people overnight...

Oh, yeah, and I totally agree about getting the Viking add-on if you're going to get Medieval. Aragon for the win!
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
13:35 / 24.04.06
I found the barbarian tribes a bit shallow in the (unexpanded) Rome and a bit fanciful in the expansion

You should try them, and for that matter the game in general, when using the Rome: Total Realism patch. It makes massive, and in my view absolutely necessary, changes to the game, one of which is the proper improving of the non-Rome factions.

I really can't recommend this addition highly enough; indeed, Rome vanilla seems an unfinished game by comparison. If you're halfway serious about Rome, and are looking for a tougher, better presented, and more realistic experience, then use the Total Realism patch.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
16:58 / 24.04.06
Rome : Total Realism
I must confess, I usually shy away from fan-produced mods (for anything) in abject horror, but that one looks nice. I'm downloading it, and shall give it a whirl once Oblivion gives me my mind back.
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
17:37 / 24.04.06
I must confess, I usually shy away from fan-produced mods

Well, you just have to use your judgement and, if a mod doesn't work out, be prepared to reinstall a fresh game.
I agree that there are some truly awful mods out there, but so too is a core of dedicated and extremely talented fans making some truly superb material. It was the modding community that pretty much made Morrowind, and it will be the modding community that will, in time, do the same for Oblivion.

Sorry, back to the Total War subject...
 
 
Baz Auckland
22:50 / 24.04.06
I would love for them to have added on to MTW. To be able to play from 1534 to 1801 or so... Maybe as an expansion to MTW2. Bring on the Reformation and musketeers!
 
 
Jamie Grant
13:59 / 12.07.06
I've enjoyed battering the Total War series for years. Imagine my delight when I discover a mod that bites back!

If you've Rome Total War v1.5 then google for the challenging new mod BareBonesWars_v6.0

A good blend of legendary skins & models, much improved battle behaviour AI, new strategic elements on a huge scale map that has long distances, high mountains and not too many settlements (mostly without walls - which are more expensive now). Logistics becomes important, realistic long approaches, hide and spy the enemy, the atmosphere is great.....

It's 5 provincial campaigns are:
- 3Families
- UnifiedRome (as Julii without senate)
- rome_civil_war
- mundus magnus map
- europe270

The new 6.1 version also includes:

- An adapted beliefsystem as in Barbarian Invasion
- Roman leadership system in 4 turns/year
- polishing: new interfaces for romans, greek and eastern
- units: include modding legions full pack
- adapted darth formations 14
- new palm models for semi-arid climate
- new grass texture effects

Happy hunting!
 
 
Jamie Grant
18:29 / 15.07.06
The new RTW BareBonesWars 6.1 beta version is approching release soon. It's the hardest, sneakiest and downright cunning AI I've ever had the pleasure of being routed by. Even big armies are no defense if you're tac-tics go off beam. Check it out - just Google Bare Bones Wars RTR etc...
 
 
Jamie Grant
14:48 / 01.09.06
Darthmod for RTW and Barb Invasion makes the game REALLY challenging on the AI front! Try it and see!
 
 
Quantum
14:35 / 05.09.06
The new MTW is out soon innit?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:20 / 20.10.06
10th November, apparently...

Having realised I've never actually got very far through Rome, despite dedicating a huge amount of hours to it, I'm now determined to play the campaign all the way through before Medieval 2 turns up, and possibly Barbarian Invasion too. I've realised my defeat before was always due to impatience- I never really bothered much with infrastructure stuff, trying to get as many fights in as possible, and would always end up skint and getting my ass kicked really quickly. This time I'm not making that mistake- my coffers are full, and I'm getting much better units for it.
 
 
Good Intentions
05:39 / 24.10.06
I only played MTW, but boy did I and it have a good many hours in each other's company.

I am the only person I know who left the fighting to the computer and just ruled my kingdom from the throneroom. Even when my king character was in the battle. I'm a Civ-head, you know.

I beat that game entirely and convincingly with the Danes. Using trade, trade, trade and more trade, building a navy from Scandinavia through to Gibraltar before anybody else is out of the blocks. The one thing I would change about MTW would be that you could trade with territories you control (like most actual trade occurred). I'm not bothered by most of the troops being on the borders since historically garrisons were the exception rather than the norm, and armies were commonly raised only for campaigns.
 
 
Thorn Davis
12:31 / 24.10.06
I've realised my defeat before was always due to impatience- I never really bothered much with infrastructure stuff, trying to get as many fights in as possible, and would always end up skint and getting my ass kicked really quickly.

One of the few effective tactics I managed to implement was to take a leaf from actual history, and raise money by piling into one of the neighbouring territories, sack it (destroy all the buildings etc) for the money, and then bail out again. Wait for the original owners to get back in, rebuild it etc and repeat. It's quite the moneyspinner.
 
 
Baz Auckland
23:02 / 24.10.06
I had some great games with that too, but not just with neighbouring territories, but to raise a huge army, and send it marching across the map, from France to Russia, plundering along the way. The computer would almost always retreat, and it would manage to stay alive for a few decades before it would get trapped and destroyed far from home...
 
 
Good Intentions
01:53 / 26.10.06
I should try that. Eventually I'd start running at a loss since I've conquered most of the coastal territories, but by then my 200,000 florin bank account sees me through till the end of the game.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:04 / 27.10.06
The Medieval 2 demo looks gorgeous. My PC's really struggling with it, though...
 
 
foot long subbacultcha
09:51 / 30.10.06
have you set all the graphics options to the bare minimum? Apparently there's a second demo out there somewhere, with a more recent build of the game. I don't know if it performs better, though.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:40 / 04.11.06
For some reason, it's working fine now.

And fuck me if it doesn't look like the best game ever. And that's just on the battles end of the thing...
 
 
Good Intentions
23:04 / 06.11.06
I am so going to lose my life to TW:M2
 
 
■
14:34 / 12.11.06
Anyone bought it yet? I resisted temptation as I have lots of other commitments right now (including finishing M:TW1 again), but I sooooo want it. Foolishly, I bought a £1.49 14-day trial of WoW insted. Like that ain't going to eat my life instead.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:28 / 12.11.06
Cube, you are SO fucked now.

I can't afford M2TW until next payday (I think it's been put back a week anyway)... I'm actually sad enough that I'm worried it may eat into my WoW time.

I really should leave the house at some point. Like, REALLY.
 
  

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