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Purity Balls - URRRRRRGHHHH

 
  

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Happy Dave Has Left
16:13 / 19.04.06
I found this via Scalzi's blog. It's the new fundamentalist Christian practice of Purity Balls, whereby American gents take their pre-pubescent daughters along to dance-cum-pledge events where the daughters swear to remain sexually 'pure' (whatever that means) and the dad's promise to protect their 'purity'. Scalzi's views pretty much match my own in this case, but I thought I'd see what the 'Lith's thoughts were on this - I'm having trouble forming a clear opinion on this because it hits so many of my 'URGH' buttons.

Mods, wasn't sure where to place this, I'm still fairly new, feel free to move.
 
 
*
16:36 / 19.04.06
I was really thinking of something akin to chastity ben-wa balls here. While this is Gleeeeushushushful, the image I had before was far far worse.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
16:39 / 19.04.06
Thanks for that image. Not sleeping tonight then!
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:39 / 19.04.06
Glad I wasn't the only one. The real story is actually kind of a relief.

Sorry, I'll be back when Ive stopped shivering.
 
 
alas
16:45 / 19.04.06
chastity ben-wa balls

me too! that's immediately where my mind went, too. (What does that say about us, id?)

But, um, yeah, I believe the word is "Gleeeushusheshusheush!"
 
 
Mistoffelees
16:49 / 19.04.06
These people practice, what they accuse their opponents of: they think about sex all the time. All their topics, these neocons, born-agains or whatever this group is called these days, revolve around their views on sexuality: Homosexuality is bad, abortion too, sex before marrying, contraception, artificial fertilisation; it all seems to threaten their fixation on making babies the right way.

And do these people ever realize that most of their views (not just the above, but "always trust your leader", "if you´re not with us, you´re against us", religion is important, atheists are threatening our way of life, etc.) are 100% the same views of the people they call "terrorists"?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:49 / 19.04.06
The real story is obviously actually not a relief, but as alas says, a 'Yeuch'. But, compared to what I was initially picturing...
 
 
Jack Denfeld
17:00 / 19.04.06
Why don't they have father/son purity balls?
 
 
matthew.
17:02 / 19.04.06
Oh, man. Denfeld, you bastard, you beat me to it.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:04 / 19.04.06
Yes, I was also thinking of something inserted. It is not the kind of ball I'd attend, but then I expect if one of those dads and probably their daughters were linked to the Conversation thread about polyamory, they'd go gleesh too.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:08 / 19.04.06
I thought it sounded like the name of a Bond chick myself.

And yes, this is deeply, deeply fucked.
 
 
Feverfew
18:07 / 19.04.06
Just to add my "Argh" initial reaction to the idea of Chastity Ben-Wa Balls. My brain has now officially shut down for the night, and it's all your fault.

Granted, some might say no-one'll notice, but still...
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
18:23 / 19.04.06
I expect if one of those dads and probably their daughters were linked to the Conversation thread about polyamory, they'd go gleesh too.

But that would be because they'd be small-minded and wrong, wouldn't it? Because one is a consensual practice between adults that is chosen, and the other is a way of older males coercing young women into an artificial and constricting model of "purity" and "femininity". Very little relative about that, I'd think.

(Also, on the subject of chastity ben-wa balls, I thought for quite a while that that was what the virgin pledge rings were for... Never quite worked out the exact mechanics of the situation, but still left memorable images...)
 
 
ZF!
18:26 / 19.04.06
I didn't even know what ben-wa balls were before this thread.

Oh Barbelith! my descent continues...

Doesn't this all strike y'all as an almost forced Oedipal/Electra situation.

Brr.
 
 
iamus
18:48 / 19.04.06
I thought it sounded like the name of a Bond chick myself.


Words cannot express how perfect that would be.
 
 
Spaniel
19:22 / 19.04.06
I seem to remember reading an article about how in certain US states girls are married off when they are very young indeed, in fact said article featured a 12 year-old girl who's "fiance" - a friend of her father's - was present at her birth. And if that wasn't horrible enough the man apparently announced that he would "marry that girl one day", and was given the father's blessing on the spot.

Can that be true?
 
 
ibis the being
19:24 / 19.04.06
chastity ben-wa balls

Me five or six. Someone needs to market them right away....
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
19:35 / 19.04.06
Would you not need to make them, um, non-removable?

Egads, the mind boggles.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
19:48 / 19.04.06
What US state is this? And what year?
 
 
Jack Denfeld
19:51 / 19.04.06
Fucking never mind. Just did a google and found Alabama.
 
 
Spaniel
19:56 / 19.04.06
As I say, I can't remember much about the article except for the aforementioned nastiness. Must've read it around '95.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:11 / 19.04.06
ARGH and also THE FUCK!?
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:40 / 19.04.06
American gents take their pre-pubescent daughters along to dance-cum-pledge events where the daughters swear to remain sexually 'pure' (whatever that means) and the dad's promise to protect their 'purity'


Ok, the words "creepy incestuous relationship" came to anybody else's mind, or is it just me who's that fucked up?

"My little daugther's 'purity' is mine to do with it what I will, so help me God"
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
20:46 / 19.04.06
For sure man, for sure.

Ick ick ick ick ick.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:46 / 19.04.06
But that would be because they'd be small-minded and wrong, wouldn't it? Because one is a consensual practice between adults that is chosen, and the other is a way of older males coercing young women into an artificial and constricting model of "purity" and "femininity".

I'm very sorry that I haven't been able to read the links, but if it is older males coercing young women into this behaviour, then that's different from an adult consensual practice - however, if young women were choosing to behave in a certain way and to celebrate that with their families, then I don't see "purity" as any more constructed or "wrong" really than polyamory, as a life-choice. That is, if young women (or men) choose celibacy for themselves, and choose "constriction" in that respect (limiting their sexual behaviour according to certain cultural ideals), then my first reaction isn't gleesh, no.

By saying "older males" and "young women" you are giving the situation perhaps a different connotation from "fathers" and "daughters" - just as if you talked about older men forcing young women not to leave their homes, and confining them to a bedroom, that would sound different from saying "a dad grounding his teenage daughter". Parents (mothers and fathers) do guide and shape, and to an extent control and restrict their (male and female) children's behaviour and attitudes as they grow up, and to an extent that doesn't make me go gleesh either. I'm sure a lot of what I did as a young teenager was either encouraged by or limited by my parents, and punished or rewarded according to what they thought was right.

I do apologise honestly if I've misunderstood what's being discussed here, but whenever I try to open those pages, I crash. So, you know, ignore me if the purity ball is actually a lot worse than I was suggesting.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:01 / 19.04.06
The problem here, wonderstarr, is that the fathers are taking their pre-pubescent daugthers to make a pledge about something they don't really understand yet (sex and virginity) under the disguise of a "party", thus filling their little mind with derogative notions about their own bodies (this virginity = purity, thus un-himened sex organs = filth always bugged me). We don't question the right of the parents to teach their kids the values they belive in. We do question the way they are doing it, and, also, to a lesses extent (let's be frank), these specific values as well.

and I'll repeat a question already here: where's the mother-son version of the purity ball? Are they assuming boys are "un-spoilable", already spoiled by nature, or do they want them to spoiling themselves (presumedly with non-Christian people's daugthers)?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:03 / 19.04.06
if young women were choosing to behave in a certain way and to celebrate that with their families

You did read the part where some of the daughters attending these balls were, like, four years old?

I also remember 'choosing' to behave in certain ways when I was 14, 15, and so on, partly because of pressure in one form or another from my family. Some of these ways I 'chose' to behave were reasonable and I still maintain them. Some of them, well, no, not so much. Most of us could say the same, but if I had to look back on a big shiny party that celebrated the not-so-much parts I'd feel a bit grumpy. And I'm horrid when I'm grumpy.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:08 / 19.04.06
Oh, I managed it. So I can be a little more informed.

On the one hand, I was interested to note that the father does also pledge to retain standards and ideals of behaviour, limiting himself also; though presumably he's allowed to have sex.

"I will be pure in my own life as a man, husband and father. I will be a man of integrity and accountability..."

On the other, that girls of 4 years old were brought along to make such a pledge finally finds my button, I think for the same reason as your man Scalzi on the blog: because it's strange and peculiar to me, to bring promises of sexual purity into the life of a 4 year old.

The aspect of fathers having control over their daughters' sexual lives from childhood or pubescence way into adulthood is, yes, also both icky-incestuous and uncomfortably-unethical to me. (I wonder would it seem different if mothers had brought their daughters along to a dinner... without the dance, perhaps. Would that seem less "ew"?)

However, I'd still suggest that a parent setting standards for their child's current behaviour, while that child is of a certain age and living with them, is not unusual or wrong in my opinion. I wouldn't think it was wrong for a parent to ask their teenage child to sign a pledge that they wouldn't take illegal drugs while living under the family roof. I would think it was strange, and probably doomed, for a parent to ask a child for a lifetime pledge of that kind.

And I think pledging celibacy for the sake of your parent is weird, because for most people sexual activity is part of your independent adult life and has nothing to do with your parents. So, happily for me I think I agree with the posts above, largely.

However, I do feel that if a child and parent share the same Christian views, there's no harm in them making pledges about upholding certain behaviour according to the ideals of their faith, as long as that doesn't hurt anyone else. If the child subsequently loses that faith and wanders from those ideals, and is happier on another path, so be it. But a family bonding (dinner and dance) based on a shared faith isn't necessarily a bad thing.

As has already been suggested, the pledge that stretches into adult life, the opposite-sex pairing of the ceremony, the very young age of some participants, and the parental hand over the child's future sexual behaviour, is what makes this particular ritual seem... dodgy.

Note though that the blog seems to make quite reasoned, respectful comments (to an extent and limit) about Purity Balls, rather than going gleesh. I think the comments below are really sensible.

I'm not going to criticize one of the underlying desires of the purity ball, which is a father's desire to express his commitment to care for and protect his child. I happen to have the same desire. I will note, however, that the expression of that desire can take on rather substantially different forms. These "Purity Ball" fathers think it's best expressed through control; I think it's best expressed through knowledge. I don't want my daughter to pledge her "purity" to me, as if having a sexual experience is some sort of karmic besmirching; I want to inform my daughter so that when she has sex, she knows what she's doing and she has it on her terms, and she comes away from the experience satisfied (as much as anyone comes away from their first experience in such a state) and able to integrate it into her life in a positive way.

Which is not to say I want her having sex, oh, anytime before she can vote; indeed, you can believe me when I say to you that among the discussions we'll have will be the ones where I suggest that abstinence really is the best policy through high school, for many very good and practical reasons (hey, it worked for me). I mean, I suppose I could just say "You shouldn't have sex because I've told you not to, and that's the end of it," and demand she respect my authority. However, if Athena is anything like me as a kid (and it's becoming rather abundantly clear that she is), any attempt at parental rule by fiat is likely to be politely but deeply ignored, and she's going to do what's she going to do.
That being the case, rationally outling the consequences is going to work rather better than trying to ram a pledge down her adorable little throat

Also, not to put too fine a point on it, I think not having pre-marital sex is pretty idiotic. This is a separate issue from promiscuity -- I'm not a big fan of totally indiscriminate appendage insertion or acceptance -- but if you're serious enough about someone that you're contemplating marriage, you damn well better know what your own sexual playing field is, and you damn well better know if you're sexually compatible with your presumed marital partner.

I can't fault what I see as the root impulse for the purity balls, but I'm glad that my expression of the desire to keep my daughter safe is not that one.

 
 
Isadore
21:09 / 19.04.06
I'm very sorry that I haven't been able to read the links, but if it is older males coercing young women into this behaviour, then that's different from an adult consensual practice - however, if young women were choosing to behave in a certain way and to celebrate that with their families, then I don't see "purity" as any more constructed or "wrong" really than polyamory, as a life-choice.

Some of the girls are as young as four years old. How much did you know about sex when you were four?

I also don't see consensual purity as any worse than polyamory, but if a sixteen-year-old isn't considered old enough to be able to consent on their own, I certainly don't think a four-year-old ought to be making pledges like this.

My reaction remains pity for the patheticness that they feel they have to go to those lengths to show off How Right They Are compared to the dirty filthy hoi polloi. It's social and religious/moral uppityness all in one, and seems somewhat archaic in form.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:12 / 19.04.06
You did read the part where some of the daughters attending these balls were, like, four years old?

I didn't! I said I didn't!
I have now, and yes I see your point now.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
21:21 / 19.04.06
if young women were choosing to behave in a certain way and to celebrate that with their families, then I don't see "purity" as any more constructed or "wrong" really than polyamory, as a life-choice.

Well, in that hypothetical situation, possibly*, but this is a situation where fathers swear a pledge to "cover my daughter as her authority and protection in the area of purity", and "lead, guide and pray over my daughter and as the high priest in my home". I understand that you can't read the article (although the Focus on the Family URL should give you a clue), but I simply don't get how a situation where a a father who is part of a religious system** with deeply entrenched complexes of masculine supremacy swears to preseve the chastity of his daughter isn't, frankly, creepy and wrong. I'm making an assumption here, but I'd be willing to bet that this isn't a case of a father and daughter celebrating a choice of abstinence together. Consider for example, that this is a pledge for the father to "protect" his daughter's "purity" until marriage. Heterosexual marriage. I would strongly suspect that the sort of man who would want to take his daughter to a Chastity Ball would not make this a matter of choice for his unfortunate daughter. Consider, for example, how damaging this would be for a gay teen. Apart from anything else, the power dynamic of the thing means that her sexuality is his business and choice. Which is Not Right, yes? Wheras polyamory (in the form discussed on Barbelith recently) is the mutual choice of a number of adults of any gender to share their sexual behaviours in a variety of ways***. One of these things, wonderstarr, is not like the others. I hope I haven't misinterpreted you, but on the surface, I find the fact that you feel that the practices of polyamory and fathers' chastity vows equate a more than a little disturbing.



*Even so, describing female virginity is dodgy, to say the least.

**By which I mean specifically the sort of fundamentalist Christianity expressed by, say, Focus on the Family. The dirty fuckers.

***Apologies if I've fucked up this definition somehow.

[Also, sorry for repetitive arguments and awful phrasing - I'm very, very tired]
 
 
Slim
00:04 / 20.04.06
I disagree with the general consensus, I suppose. Parents want to instill religious beliefs upon their kids, even at an early age. I didn't understand anything at the age of 4 but that didn't stop my parents, and every other parent, from attempting to teach me morality lessons.

Abstinence isn't right and it isn't wrong. It just is. And all of those girls are going to grow up and make up their own minds about such matters. I see no harm in this. My parents are Catholic and I guarantee you, they probably still don't want me to have sex. Did their trying to convince me not to have sex give me an unhealthy body image? No. That's because the two aren't connected at the hip as DM seems to imply.

Do I agree with abstinence before marriage? Not at all. On the other hand, I don't think it's wrong. And the dance is not indicative of an incestuous relationship. It's a bunch of dads trying to teach their girls not to have sex before marriage, which is ultimately a religious belief, not an attempt to give their daughters a complex. As for the pagentry, I suspect it's merely a way to reinforce the message and show that it's important enough to be more than a "please don't have sex before you're married" conversation.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
00:42 / 20.04.06
So the nice dads are just trying to show their daughters the unacceptability of pre-marital sex and homosexuality, is that it? I really, really don't want to call you an apologist for what seems to me to be a fairly disturbing practice, but I'm not quite sure how else to read that, Slim...

Am I overreacting here, or does the idea of this sort of ownership ritual squick others as much as it does me?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:59 / 20.04.06
So I'm the only one who thinks Purity Balls sounds like the name of some sort of femme fatale?
 
 
Isadore
01:13 / 20.04.06
Nope.
 
  

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